http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/128799,Lech-Walesa-%E2%80%93-Gays-should-be-made-to-sit-at-the-back-in-parliament
QuoteLech Walesa – 'Gays should be made to sit at the back in parliament'
In an astonishing outburst against homosexuals, former Solidarity leader Lech Walesa has said that gay MPs should sit at the back of the parliament chamber, or even "behind a wall".
"Homosexuals should sit on the last bench in the plenary hall, or even behind the wall, and not somewhere at the front," Walesa, who was president of Poland from 1990 to 1995, told the TVN24 broadcaster on Friday evening.
Walesa was giving his views on recent debates in parliament about legalising civil partnerships for hetro and homosexuals in Poland and other social issues, when he said: "a minority cannot impose itself on the majority".
"They must know they are a minority and adapt themselves to smaller things," the 1983 Nobel Peace Prize winner and staunch Roman Catholic said, adding that he would not have voted for Anna Grodzka, Europe's only transsexual MP, when she was nominated by her party, the Palikot Movement, to become deputy speaker of parliament in January.
Robert Biedron, who became Poland's first ever openly gay MP in the 2011 general election, responded to the outburst by saying, "I would be happy to meet with Lech Walesa".
"I love Lech Walesa - because if it was not for him I would not be here sitting with you," Biedron, also an MP for the liberal-left Palikot Movement, told a TVN journalist, referring to Walesa's role in toppling communism.
"But his son [Jaroslaw Walesa, who is a member of the European Parliament] should sit him down and explain a few things: civil partnerships, IVF," Biedron added.
The ruling centre-right Civic Platform party – who Lech Walesa has given qualified support to in the past - has yet to come to a unified stance on civil partnerships and state funding for the IVF treatment.
Prime Minister Donald Tusk has said that the party will meet on Monday to decide the fate of leading Civic Platform conservative, Justice Minister Jaroslaw Gowin, within the government, after he led campaigns to block votes in parliament legalising civil partnerships. (pg)
Unless women also have to sit at the back it's discrimination.
When we had trade union protests earlier in 2012, he said the police should use tear gas and beat them up with batons. Then he endorsed Romney. For an ex-trade union leader that's quite a feat. :D
The guy has never been a titan of intellect, but he is completely erratic in his dotage.
What I am surprised about is that the main stream media are today announcing the "end of his legend", as if his catastrophic presidential rule in the 1990s, or a whole lot of idiotic pronouncements every now and then didn't do that.
I guess you don't mess with the gays.
I guess there are some Poles who aren't totally retarded.
Quote from: Neil on March 02, 2013, 08:18:44 AM
I guess there are some Poles who aren't totally retarded.
They immigrated to the US.
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 08:03:58 AM
The guy has never been a titan of intellect, but he is completely erratic in his dotage.
What I am surprised about is that the main stream media are today announcing the "end of his legend", as if his catastrophic presidential rule in the 1990s, or a whole lot of idiotic pronouncements every now and then didn't do that.
:yes:
Also, gays generally adapt themselves to larger things not smaller ones. Silly Lech.
:)
Quote from: Syt on March 02, 2013, 06:21:00 AM
The ruling centre-right Civic Platform party – who Lech Walesa has given qualified support to in the past - has yet to come to a unified stance on civil partnerships and state funding for the IVF treatment.
Okay, it's a given that Lech is an idiot on the whole gay thing. He's been quite an idiot about a lot of things in the recent past.
What I'm trying to wrap my head around is the bolded part. Is it common in countries with state-funded medical care to pay for IVF? What the justification for that? Do they also cover abortions? (I'm assuming that abortions are legal in Poland. Is that a poor assumption?)
Obviously, I know next to nothing about what's covered and what's not in state-funded care. Even if we ever did get Medicare for all, I can't imagine that IVF would be covered. Certainly, abortions would not. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is when the state pays for it.
As a matter of fact, Poland has very restrictive abortion laws (probably the most restrictive in the EU), with abortion being permitted only if 1) the fetus has a grave and irreversible birth defect, 2) there is a serious threat to the health or life of the mother, or 3) pregnancy is a result of a criminal act - and no. 1) and 3) are only allowed until the 12th week of the pregnancy. In practice, because of the short time limit, it is very difficult to get the abortion under 1) or 3), especially as many doctors are either idiot catholics or intimidated by catholics, so they refuse or stall prenatal tests - Poland has been scolded for this by the ECHR several times in the past The result is that most abortion are either done in illegal black market clinics (for the poor) or in other EU countries (for those better off).
I cannot find whether there is state funding provided, but it seems it is not funded - although I don't really see why it wouldn't be, at least in the scenario no. 2.
Personally, I don't see why the IVF treatment wouldn't be covered by state health care - again, Poland is a pretty bad case study as we are both poor and backward, but considering many Western European countries cover gender reassignment surgeries and similar procedures and treatments (which are not "life saving") but improve quality of life, I don't see why it shouldn't be. The justification for this is both eudaimonic (the job of the government should be to make as many people as possible happy) and demographic (we need the population to breed).
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) and the IVF (including for single moms and lesbian couples).
In our system IVF is paid for by the government up to age 43. Abortion is covered too, as is euthanasia.
I suppose all of it benefits the state in the end, so why wouldn't they pay for it?
Quote from: Maladict on March 02, 2013, 12:10:48 PM
In our system IVF is paid for by the government up to age 43. Abortion is covered too, as is euthanasia.
I suppose all of it benefits the state in the end, so why wouldn't they pay for it?
If you do the three in quick succession, then it probably won't benefit the state.
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) and the IVF (including for single moms and lesbian couples).
Not shocked. I just know that won't happen in the US in my lifetime, if ever.
They are both state funded in the UK. There are rules and restrictions of course.
Poland! Seriously in need of another partition.
Quote from: merithyn on March 02, 2013, 01:07:23 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) and the IVF (including for single moms and lesbian couples).
Not shocked. I just know that won't happen in the US in my lifetime, if ever.
GO TO CUBA.
Is Cuba a mythical place, like Timbuktu?
Where Meri can get everything payed for from the magic bag of Fidel.
Quote from: merithyn on March 02, 2013, 09:44:46 AM
Obviously, I know next to nothing about what's covered and what's not in state-funded care. Even if we ever did get Medicare for all, I can't imagine that IVF would be covered. Certainly, abortions would not. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is when the state pays for it.
IVF wasn't covered by the public before, so everyone who wanted it had to pay, and then have it.
Now it's covered by the state and couples needing it have to wait many years to get it. I think international adoption is getting less of a bother than this.
Quote from: merithyn on March 02, 2013, 09:44:46 AM
What I'm trying to wrap my head around is the bolded part. Is it common in countries with state-funded medical care to pay for IVF? What the justification for that? Do they also cover abortions? (I'm assuming that abortions are legal in Poland. Is that a poor assumption?)
In the UK you can get IVF on the NHS, though there's obviously a waiting list. Each of the nations have their own guidelines, in England it's available for women aged 23-39, who have three years of fertility problems or who've got an identifiable fertility problem (blocked fallopian tubes, for example). The doctors also consider BMI, whether they've got children already and the number of previous fertility treatments they've had. It is entirely equally available for lesbians or single mothers.
The NHS also covers abortions. It various across the country but between 60 and 90% of abortions are NHS-funded.
Quote from: Josephus on March 02, 2013, 01:32:49 PM
Poland! Seriously in need of another partition.
What's a positive is that, while several years ago this would have probably gone unnoticed, today he is being steamrolled by pretty much all the media.
He used to be defended by the centre-left media because right wingers hate him for political reasons (they say he is a communist plant and handed Poland over to post-communist oligarchs) but now he has lost support from all quarters.
I still support him, though on this he's wrong. The man's a hero.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 02, 2013, 05:41:58 PM
I still support him, though on this he's wrong. The man's a hero.
Well it would have been better for everyone if the communists shot him before 1989.
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 05:43:07 PM
Well it would have been better for everyone if the communists shot him before 1989.
:lol: Looking at the region Poland seems to have had one of the more successful post-Communism transition. You're certainly up there with the Czechs and Baltics.
Also, I'm glad you think the idea to put a minority "behind a wall" seems "wrong" to you. That's a really strong condemnation for an idea like this. :P
I'm a calm kind of guy :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 02, 2013, 05:56:25 PM
I'm a calm kind of guy :)
And the fuhrer was a wonderful dancer ;)
Wow. No need to compare me to Hitler :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 02, 2013, 06:00:36 PM
Wow. No need to compare me to Hitler :P
I am not comparing you :P
Anyway, it's not the first time that you seem to have a boner for an elderly conservative "strongman" homophobe politician. Can we say: daddy issues? :hmm:
:P My dad's an elderly socialist whose closest friend is a native American-Canadian Anglican monk (and former lover of my uncle). He's not got much in common with conservative homophobes of any age.
But Walesa led the fight against a totalitarian regime at great personal risk - he'd have to do a lot before I thought much less of him. Same for Nelson Mandela or Vaclav Havel. Though, I do prefer the latter two...
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) and the IVF (including for single moms and lesbian couples).
Not shocking. France is a modern, progressive nation that has its shit in order. :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 02, 2013, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) and the IVF (including for single moms and lesbian couples).
Not shocking. France is a modern, progressive nation that has its shit in order. :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog:
Mmm...except for the whole French bit.
Have some Freedom Fries.
Oh I did with my steak frites.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 02, 2013, 01:45:34 PM
GO TO CUBA.
No snow in Cuba. She should go to North Korea. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 02, 2013, 10:32:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) and the IVF (including for single moms and lesbian couples).
Not shocking. France is a modern, progressive nation that has its shit in order. :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog: :frog:
Oh I know and I fully agree - it's just that Meri's post was kinda like "WUT they have state funded abortions anywhere in the world?"
Quote from: Martinus on March 03, 2013, 03:26:41 AM
Oh I know and I fully agree - it's just that Meri's post was kinda like "WUT they have state funded abortions anywhere in the world?"
:yeahright:
No, it was, "Where is it state-funded?" I knew that it was; I just wondered where in particular.
As for Cuba and North Korea, no... but France or Canada, absofuckinglutely! :w00t:
Quote from: merithyn on March 04, 2013, 12:22:02 AM
As for Cuba and North Korea, no... but France or Canada, absofuckinglutely! :w00t:
Racist. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on March 02, 2013, 11:28:21 AM
Btw, just to shock you, France has full state funding of abortions (for any reasons) .
Only up to the 12th week, which would be an unconstitutional limit here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France
Poor Walesa.
Even his son (who is a member of the European Parliament and supports civil unions) said that not only does he disagree with what his father said but considers it "evil and harmful".
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.przegladsportowy.pl%2Fm%2FRepozytorium.Podglad.aspx%2F400%2F0%2Ffaktonline%2F634514998396157586.jpg&hash=88e2c6b2b8167e915e4e74716b3cf9e0b14c99ed)
:face:
Even Fox News is writing about it. :lol:
QuoteGay Polish lawmaker to sit on the front bench in response to Lech Walesa's anti-gay remarks
WARSAW, Poland – Poland's first gay and transgender lawmakers will sit on the front bench in Parliament this week in reaction to hostile remarks by former president Lech Walesa.
Polish democracy icon and Nobel peace prize winner Walesa sparked outrage last week by saying that as a minority, gays have no right to a prominent role in politics, need to "adjust to smaller things" and should sit on the back benches, or even outside the chamber. On Monday, he refused to apologize and said he has been misunderstood.
Janusz Palikot, the leader of progressive party Palikot's Movement, reacted by promoting the party's gay lawmaker, Robert Biedron, and transgender lawmaker, Anna Grodzka, to the front row for a three-day session starting Wednesday. In Poland's Parliament, the front row, which is closest to the Speaker and gets the most TV attention, is generally for party leaders and senior lawmakers. The Cabinet sits in a separate section.
Palikot said he will also seek a resolution asking Walesa to "change his manner of speaking."
Walesa has declined an invitation to meet with Biedron.
Walesa's son said he was shocked by his father's words, which "should not have been said."
"Gays, lesbians, the homosexuals, have the right to have a representation and should be" in Parliament, said Jaroslaw Walesa, who is a European Parliament lawmaker.
In the 1980s Walesa led the Solidarity freedom movement that peacefully toppled communism in Poland.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 04, 2013, 02:43:10 AM
Only up to the 12th week, which would be an unconstitutional limit here.
Yeah. That's because American abortion law is absurdly liberal, far moreso than anywhere in Europe. I think it's probably part of the reason anti-abortion is still a more common opinion.
The UK has a similar law about later abortions (in the UK after 24 weeks) if it could cause grave physical or mental problems for the woman. In my understanding (based on stories from a friend who used to work for Marie Stopes) here getting two doctors to agree, especially on the mental health issue, is often relatively easy. I imagine in France it's the same after 12 weeks.
So, a quick update:
2 weeks ago: Walesa says he does not want to change a thing and will not apologise.
1 week ago: Reports of Walesa's street in San Francisco being renamed to something else and him losing a couple lecture contracts in the US to the tune of $70,000 and counting.
Yesterday: Walesa says that he is a victim of gay lobby and is being discriminated against.
Today: Walesa says he supports gay civil unions as long as "they don't flaunt it".
Now you can imagine how fun it was to have this guy as a President. :lol:
I saw Walesa's street in SF. It's a dump.
Quote from: The Larch on March 27, 2013, 06:04:50 AM
I saw Walesa's street in SF. It's a dump.
Too many gays on it :yuk:
Quote from: Caliga on March 27, 2013, 06:53:39 AM
Quote from: The Larch on March 27, 2013, 06:04:50 AM
I saw Walesa's street in SF. It's a dump.
Too many gays on it :yuk:
Not really:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/524894_10152193232965711_1448595519_n.jpg)
It's not in Castro, after all, but near the City Hall.