Maybe it just ebbs and flows, but I cannot help to notice that organized Christian religion in the Western world (especially the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church) is behaving recently as if its world was crashing down around it.
The Catholic Church has been significantly weakened by scandals all over the world, yet it seems to be lashing out more vehemently against modernity, driving away more and more worshippers even in countries thought to be strongholds of Catholicism to date (such as Ireland or Poland, not to mention France or Spain, that pretty much ignore its stances on things like gay marriage and abortion altogether).
The Anglican Church seems to be adopting a different route, and rather than trying to maintain universal orthodoxy, it is attempting to cope by introducing different rules in different countries (e.g. taking different stances on things like female/gay priests and bishops, or gay marriage) but this also does not seem to be working as the division seems to be tearing the Anglican Communion apart.
So what do you think? Is this another set-back after which these churches will adjust to modernity like they did in the past, or are we seeing their last throes in the West (with their centers shifting to the third world).
:wacko:
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
Does anywhere besides Europe count as 'The West'? Also what brands of Christianity count as 'organized' since we are making that distinction?
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 10:53:22 AM
Does anywhere besides Europe count as 'The West'? Also what brands of Christianity count as 'organized' since we are making that distinction?
State church or catholic church in predominantly catholic countries.
It's weird. He says 'The West', and then uses Poland as an example.
Nice try, Russian.
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
State church or catholic church in predominantly catholic countries.
Oh...then I guess so. A State Church is pretty rare outside of Europe isn't it? Catholicism is getting slammed by evangelical protestantism in Latin America thanks to the might and power of American culture...which is pretty different from what you are claiming that their anti-leftwing positions are the problem.
Christianity in general in Europe is certainly on its way out.
State churches however...I can see them hanging on a lot longer. They've the historic, cultural and nationalist elements behind them. They're bigger than believing in sky monsters, many supposed members of the churches aren't believers.
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 10:56:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor
It is mostly an American thing. How was I supposed to know you are aware of historical eras of Christian movements in the United States?
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 11:08:13 AM
It is mostly an American thing. How was I supposed to know you are not aware of some Christian movements in the United States?
I didn't know the details but I was familiar with the term and even if I wasn't, I could understand it from the context. :P
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 11:05:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 10:56:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overused
Quote from: Tyr on January 08, 2013, 11:01:18 AM
Christianity in general in Europe is certainly on its way out.
Nah. Faithlessness usually precedes some great war or depression. Then the Holy Spirit will return. :)
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 10:56:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
wow, I actually came up with this independently on my own, they all intensify politics because religious influence on politics means that political opponents are no longer honest people who disagree but rather partisans of satan. It always culminates in some sort of conflict or resolutin (Revolution, Civil War or Prohibition) which results in people looking at the shambles wondering what they hell they had just done leading to a renewed secularization and atheism.
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 10:56:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
wow, I actually came up with this independently on my own, they all intensify politics because religious influence on politics means that political opponents are no longer honest people who disagree but rather partisans of satan. It always culminates in some sort of conflict or resolutin (Revolution, Civil War or Prohibition) which results in people looking at the shambles wondering what they hell they had just done leading to a renewed secularization and atheism.
:yeahright:
People wondered "what the hell they were doing" when they abolished slavery, granted universal franchise, and gained independence from Britain?
QuotePoland wasn't really devastated by WW1. And there was no significant deathtoll.
Who cares what Europe does? It's post-Nationalism, Post-Christian, and Post-Relevant.
Quote from: Barrister on January 08, 2013, 12:13:49 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 10:56:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 08, 2013, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:57:25 AM
The will soon be another Great Awakening.
:cthulu: :unsure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Great_Awakening
wow, I actually came up with this independently on my own, they all intensify politics because religious influence on politics means that political opponents are no longer honest people who disagree but rather partisans of satan. It always culminates in some sort of conflict or resolutin (Revolution, Civil War or Prohibition) which results in people looking at the shambles wondering what they hell they had just done leading to a renewed secularization and atheism.
:yeahright:
People wondered "what the hell they were doing" when they abolished slavery, granted universal franchise, and gained independence from Britain?
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
QuotePoland
Poland was occupied by Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia from 1795–1914. By late 1915 Germany had complete control over modern day Poland. A 2005 Polish study estimated 3.4 million Poles served in the Armed Forces of the occupying powers during World War I. Total deaths from 1914–18, military and civilian, within the 1919–1939 borders, were estimated at 1,130,000.[14] The following estimates of Polish deaths, within contemporary (post 1945) borders, during World War I were made by a Russian journalist in a 2004 handbook of human losses in the 20th century. Total dead 640,000: including military losses of 250,000 Poles conscripted into the following armies listed below. POW deaths in captivity of 20,000. Civilian losses due to the war included 120,000 due to military operations and 250,000 caused by famine and disease.[15]
The ethnic Polish Blue Army served with the French Army. The ethnic Polish Legions fought as part of the Austro-Hungarian Army on the Eastern Front.
Austria-Hungary (Polish Legions): 67,000
German Empire: 87,000
Russian Empire: 96,000
So, poland had less casualties than the great powers and serbia and romania, but more than the USA.
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:46:06 PM
So, poland had less casualties than the great powers and serbia and romania, but more than the USA.
Yeah but the casualties of Serbia bordered on annihilation. One of the greatest rates of loss by any army in history.
How did we get on this topic in this thread? Aren't we already talking about this in the thread actually about WWI?
When you compare to state churches with 100% membership it is hard not to decline compared to that. The church still seems to be a powerful force in society, but certainly less so than it used to be. However, I don't see it in its last throes.
QuoteIs organized Christian religion in the West in its last throes?
The only thing I see is Martinus going into throes whenever something religious-related craws up his butt and dies.
Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI. How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 01:22:53 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:46:06 PM
So, poland had less casualties than the great powers and serbia and romania, but more than the USA.
Yeah but the casualties of Serbia bordered on annihilation. One of the greatest rates of loss by any army in history.
How did we get on this topic in this thread? Aren't we already talking about this in the thread actually about WWI?
He posted in the wrong thread.
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI. How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?
Being the punching bag of Britain, France and Russia is completely consistent with bossing the Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians.
Quote from: Neil on January 08, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
:rolleyes:
Better to keep slavery then fight a war. Or give a inch to religious people.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2013, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 08, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
:rolleyes:
Better to keep slavery then fight a war. Or give a inch to religious people.
About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Being the punching bag of Britain, France and Russia is completely consistent with bossing the Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians.
And I'm not sure how accurate it is to call Turkey a punching bag either.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 08, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Being the punching bag of Britain, France and Russia is completely consistent with bossing the Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians.
And I'm not sure how accurate it is to call Turkey a punching bag either.
They handed some nasty defeats to the Brits - Galipoli and the Mesopotamian Campaign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2013, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 08, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
:rolleyes:
Better to keep slavery then fight a war. Or give a inch to religious people.
About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.
And scientific sanction.
Quote from: Malthus on January 08, 2013, 03:55:50 PM
They handed some nasty defeats to the Brits - Galipoli and the Mesopotamian Campaign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut
Those were nice. The problem is their defeats were so disastrous those couple nice wins did not come close to compensating.
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 03:59:28 PM
Those were nice. The problem is their defeats were so disastrous those couple nice wins did not come close to compensating.
What are you thinking of?
The only real disaster I can think of is the early Caucusus campaign. They were driven out of Palestine and Lebanon but that hardly qualifies as a disaster.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 08, 2013, 04:02:06 PM
What are you thinking of?
The only real disaster I can think of is the early Caucusus campaign. They were driven out of Palestine and Lebanon but that hardly qualifies as a disaster.
Losing huge chunks of your country and having your armies melt away in massive desertions is not a military disaster? And I am thinking of all of them besides Kut and Gallipoli. Turkey itself came very close to no longer existing for a second there. And also you have to remember this came right after the Balkan Wars, the losses in the military were so severe that in many villages and towns in Anatolia there were no young men left.
Quote from: Barrister on January 08, 2013, 12:13:49 PM
People wondered "what the hell they were doing" when they abolished slavery, granted universal franchise, and gained independence from Britain?
So they got one out of three right. Boo-hoo. :rolleyes:
I wonder which of these three that Marty supports.
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2013, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 08, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
:rolleyes:
Better to keep slavery then fight a war. Or give a inch to religious people.
About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.
And yet, curiously, the abolitionists also had religious sanction.
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2013, 04:05:24 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 08, 2013, 04:02:06 PM
What are you thinking of?
The only real disaster I can think of is the early Caucusus campaign. They were driven out of Palestine and Lebanon but that hardly qualifies as a disaster.
Losing huge chunks of your country and having your armies melt away in massive desertions is not a military disaster? And I am thinking of all of them besides Kut and Gallipoli. Turkey itself came very close to no longer existing for a second there. And also you have to remember this came right after the Balkan Wars, the losses in the military were so severe that in many villages and towns in Anatolia there were no young men left.
Certainly they lost the war and suffered greatly for it. But they were not the soft target (or "punching bag") that the Allies assumed they would be. In fact, their military acumen came as something of a shock.
Quote from: Malthus on January 08, 2013, 04:14:49 PM
Certainly they lost the war and suffered greatly for it. But they were not the soft target (or "punching bag") that the Allies assumed they would be. In fact, their military acumen came as something of a shock.
Which was weird it was not like they had recently been rolling over to people despite their defeats. Their soldiers had shown they could fight pretty fiecely, particularly on defense. Usually they lost because their leadership was so incompetent. The addition of those German advisors helped solve that problem a bit.
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI. How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?
:worthy: ATATURK
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI. How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?
:worthy: ATATURK
good you recognize the value of a secular state
Quote from: Phillip V on January 08, 2013, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 08, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI. How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?
:worthy: ATATURK
Attaboy, Attaturk! :D
Quote from: Malthus on January 08, 2013, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 08, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Being the punching bag of Britain, France and Russia is completely consistent with bossing the Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians.
And I'm not sure how accurate it is to call Turkey a punching bag either.
They handed some nasty defeats to the Brits - Galipoli and the Mesopotamian Campaign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut
Yes, including my great-great uncle who died 3 days after it capitulated.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2013, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2013, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 08, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM
well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.
:rolleyes:
Better to keep slavery then fight a war. Or give a inch to religious people.
About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.
And scientific sanction.
science is tentative, religion is revealed truth :showoff: