QuoteThe Census and diversity
Britain's amazing technicolour dreamcoat
Dec 11th 2012, 15:40 by M.S. | LONDON
IT HARDLY comes as a bolt from the blue that England and Wales have grown far more diverse in the ten years since the 2001 Census (Scottish and Northern Irish numbers are collected separately). But a new wodge of data from the 2011 version released today shows just how big the change is. Ethnic whites have decreased from 91.3% of the population in 2001 (and 94.1% in 1991) to 86.0%. White British have dropped from 87.5% in 2001 to 80.5% now. And the Irish, the biggest category of foreign-born residents in 2001, are ageing and shrinking.
All other ethnic groups have increased. "Other whites" (including more than half a million Poles) is now the largest category. Indians are still the biggest non-white group, up by around 500,000 to 2.5m, closely followed by Pakistanis at 2m. Those of mixed ethnic origin have shot up, along with the proportion of households combining people from different ethnic backgrounds (from 9% to 12% of the total). Although mixed Black Caribbean and white are still the biggest group, Asians and Black Africans are also intermixing with whites more than before.
London remains the most diverse city by far. White Britons now account for less than half (almost 45%) of its population for the first time, and more than one in three London residents is foreign-born. London's excellent demography unit has put up some useful analysis of the new figures. But diversity is definitely lapping outward from the capital and its other big-city strongholds in the Midlands and the Northwest. The Northeast may still be the whitest bit of England and Wales, but its non-white population has about doubled over the decade.
Britain's alleged descent into godlessness continues, with significant exceptions. The percentage of those saying they have no religion has risen from 14.8% to 25.1%, despite the fact that Muslims are more numerous. They now account for 4.8% of the population, up from 3% ten years ago. Christianity is the big backslider. But London breaks the trend a bit. The share of those in the capital professing no religion has risen over the decade but by less than it has nationally. This is thanks not only to the increase in Muslims among its residents but also to an influx of migrant Catholics and resilience among Evangelical Christians. Across England and Wales, the number of pranksters owning to worship of the Jedi fell sharply.
With housing woes increasingly in the news since 2008, the census shows the degree to which England and Wales is becoming a nation of renters. The percentage of households who own their own homes has fallen from 69% to 64% (though the proportion of those who own them outright has risen slightl). Private renters have increased from 9% of all households in 2001 to 15%. More people now rent privately than rent from the council (down from 13% to 9%).
It is the detail that provides the real stories, though. Only one local authority in England and Wales saw an increase in the proportion of white British between 2001 and 2011: Forest Heath, in Suffolk. The largest decrease in white British was in Barking and Dagenham in outer London, where it fell by 31.4 percentage points. (It is easy to see why the right-wing British National Party thought they had a chance there in the 2010 elections, though in the event the voters saw them off comprehensively.) The smallest proportions were found in the London boroughs of Newham (16.7%) and Brent (18%), and outside London in Slough (34.5%). Boroughs in outer West London—Harrow, Hounslow and Brent—rank among the five local authorities in the country with the highest proportion of ethnic Indians, whereas five inner London boroughs, led by Kensington and Chelsea, have the highest proportions of "other whites", including American and EU working migrants.
On religion, the question has got to be why God seems to have forsaken the Welsh Valleys. They account for three of the five local authorities where "no religion" looms largest. The Northeast cleaves most notably to the God of its (mainly white British) forebears. Among the handful of local authorities where the number of Christians increased were highly diverse London boroughs, including Newham, Haringey and Brent.
The Census folk are keen to remind us that the country overall saw a big increase in population between 2001 and 2011. Over half of it (55%) was due to immigration. At the same time, there was a skew towards youth, with 16- to 29-year-olds increasing sharply. Young people are more likely to rent, and less likely to profess themselves Christian (unless they are Polish). Ethnic identities are blurring. Not only are mixtures becoming more complicated (think Tiger Woods, in America) but also children of immigrants (or those who arrived as young children) may identify more than their parents with their new home (calling themselves Black British rather than Black African, say).
National identity adds to the complexity. For the first time, people were asked in 2011 how they saw themselves, allowing multiple expressions of national identity. More than two-thirds chose English, and almost 58% chose only English—most strikingly in the North-East, which is also the whitest and least foreign-born of the regions. British identity was chosen by 29% (most frequently in London) and 19% chose only British. More Census revelations are scheduled for next year, and through more detailed cross-tabulations of age, ethnicity, national origins and so forth should increase our knowledge of not only how Britain is changing but why.
In addition mixed race is now the largest ethnic group among under-16 year olds and I believe the fastest growing ethnicity. I more or less agree with Alex Massie on why this is all good news:
QuoteThe Census demonstrates the importance – and benefits – of immigration
Alex Massie 11 December 2012 13:35
I suppose the confirmation that 13 per cent of the present population of England and Wales were born overseas will be the cause of some eye-brow raising and much spluttering from the usual suspects. It's too late to repel the foreign hordes. They are inside the castle already. Some 7.5 million people born overseas now live in England and Wales (but mainly England).
Lucky old England, says I. Immigrants are drawn to and then help create economic prosperity. It is not, I suspect, a coincidence that depressed parts of northern England are also often those parts with the fewest numbers of foreign-born inhabitants. This makes sense: why would you leave Poland to claim benefits in Sunderland? No, you go where the work is. This also makes sense since, as can hardly be stressed too often, emigration is almost by definition an entrepreneurial act.
Actually, the 13 per cent figure is slightly misleading. According to other census questions some 91 per cent of respondents living in England and Wales feel some affinity to Britain, England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland. So the "true" foreign figure is probably closer to 9 per cent of the population than to 13 per cent.
Be that as it may, one wonders where London would be without its foreigners. 37 per cent of Londoners were born outwith the United Kingdom and 24 per cent of the capital's inhabitants are non-UK nationals. Truly, London is a city apart.
But if London is a law unto itself might that also help account for its abundant prosperity? It is hard not to think that immigrants are attracted by London's success and that they then make a splendid contribution towards increasing that success. It becomes a kind of win-win situation that, whatever the pressures on local services may be, imposes costs that are dwarfed by the benefits it brings.
London is, these days, the British economy's greatest engine. It is an engine built in part – and certainly serviced – by immigrant labour. Those workers have to come from somewhere and all the evidence is they won't come from Merseyside or Tyneside. These are places, mind you, that could do with more immigration too. Not to 'take' jobs from the native-born but to help stimulate demand. People are a stimulus too, remember.
Nearly five million folk in England and Wales hold foreign passports. Approximately half of those are owned by citizens from other EU countries. The rest of the world – largely but hardly exclusively from the sub-continent – accounts for the remainder. All this is really quite encouraging. It suggests that, despite the difficulties of recent years, Britain remains an attractive place in which to live, work and thrive. A decline in the number of foreigners coming to the United Kingdom would be very much more troubling than this increase. And this is before one considers the non-negligible gains to these new British residents themselves. Are their lives, their liberties, their prospects of no account at all? I think they are of some account.
It is notable too that London is the part of England in which "Britishness" thrives most. That is, Londoners are more likely to consider themselves "British" than residents of other parts of England and considerably more likely to reject the label "English". I suspect that has something to do with ethnicity too but it's also a reminder that Britishness is a big and baggy concept with room enough for almost anyone, no matter what part of this planet they were born to. London is more of an international, global city than an English city but it's also a very British place that is, if you will, perhaps more British than it is English.
Anyway, these census figures make a good case for immigration not against it. Not, I suppose, that the government will see it in those terms. But then the government's immigration policy really makes very little sense.
Anti-immigration is still the government's weirdest and worst policy.
Yeah, enjoy your cultural suicide.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:39:24 PM
Anti-immigration is still the government's weirdest and worst policy.
Well there are risks with immigration to, particularly over there where so much about nationhood is related to things like ethnicity and (culturally anyway) religion. I think this is less of a big deal in England than most old world countries though. Alot of those immigrants become more English than the English from what I understand.
The government's making it far more difficult for foreign students to come here, there were some dodgy schools that were just visa factories but nowhere near enough to justify the cuts they're making. It's also more difficult for high skilled workers - we don't have a green card-ish system. It's ridiculous.
They want to fulfil the Tory promise to cut net immigration to the 'tens of thousands' but they've no control over EU migration and, for example, Muslim immigration is unpopular but difficult to target without breaking anti-discrimination laws. So to meet their nonsense populist pledge they're hurting universities, businesses and the economy :bleeding:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:57:46 PM
The government's making it far more difficult for foreign students to come here, there were some dodgy schools that were just visa factories but nowhere near enough to justify the cuts they're making.
They're all IP thieves anyway.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:57:46 PM
The government's making it far more difficult for foreign students to come here, there were some dodgy schools that were just visa factories but nowhere near enough to justify the cuts they're making. It's also more difficult for high skilled workers - we don't have a green card-ish system. It's ridiculous.
They want to fulfil the Tory promise to cut net immigration to the 'tens of thousands' but they've no control over EU migration and, for example, Muslim immigration is unpopular but difficult to target without breaking anti-discrimination laws. So to meet their nonsense populist pledge they're hurting universities, businesses and the economy :bleeding:
Yeah well we do the same thing over here at a much larger scale.
What the Tories really need to be fighting is emmigration. Brits are still trying to colonise the world.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:39:24 PM
In addition mixed race is now the largest ethnic group among under-16 year olds and I believe the fastest growing ethnicity. I more or less agree with Alex Massie on why this is all good news:
Wait what? More than half of all children born in the UK are to mix race couples?
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2012, 02:14:49 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:39:24 PM
In addition mixed race is now the largest ethnic group among under-16 year olds and I believe the fastest growing ethnicity. I more or less agree with Alex Massie on why this is all good news:
Wait what? More than half of all children born in the UK are to mix race couples?
And to think, all this time I thought black dudes chasing after fat white chicks was a uniquely American sport.
Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
Yeah, enjoy your cultural suicide.
When was the American cultural suicide?
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2012, 02:17:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
Yeah, enjoy your cultural suicide.
When was the American cultural suicide?
Somewhere around the development and wide acceptance of the Megachurch.
Pity about the Irish, we all age but, in general, shrinking can be avoided :hmm:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 11, 2012, 02:21:36 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2012, 02:17:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
Yeah, enjoy your cultural suicide.
When was the American cultural suicide?
Somewhere around the development and wide acceptance of the Megachurch.
:lol:
Sounds about right.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2012, 02:14:49 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:39:24 PM
In addition mixed race is now the largest ethnic group among under-16 year olds and I believe the fastest growing ethnicity. I more or less agree with Alex Massie on why this is all good news:
Wait what? More than half of all children born in the UK are to mix race couples?
No. It's the largest ethnic group among under 16s.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 02:24:12 PM
No. It's the largest ethnic group among under 16s.
Ok so no the majority but the plurality.
How is that even possible with 80% of the population being ethnic brits and the second largest group being other various white folks? That would almost require every non-white person be in a mixed race relationship or the mixed race couples are producing babies at a shocking rate.
And wouldn't one follow the other unless mixed race kids are Britains #1 import?
I mean even in the US which a much much larger non-white population as a proportion that is not anywhere near true.
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2012, 02:14:49 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 01:39:24 PM
In addition mixed race is now the largest ethnic group among under-16 year olds and I believe the fastest growing ethnicity. I more or less agree with Alex Massie on why this is all good news:
Wait what? More than half of all children born in the UK are to mix race couples?
I assume "largest" = "plurality", not "largest" = "more than half"
If you split all the different white people into different ethnic groups - as they do with Poles and French etc, and even with British, English, Welsh and Irish, then it's not that surprising; even less so if they consider someone with a Polish mother and Irish father to be mixed race (not sure if they do that, however).
What Jake said, my kids are "white British", but if Irish is an ethnicity then they are aslo "mixed"........
.......but about half the "white British" have at least a drop or two of Irish in them.
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2012, 02:30:36 PM
I assume "largest" = "plurality", not "largest" = "more than half"
If you split all the different white people into different ethnic groups - as they do with Poles and French etc, and even with British, English, Welsh and Irish, then it's not that surprising; even less so if they consider someone with a Polish mother and Irish father to be mixed race (not sure if they do that, however).
Yes, I already said that Jake.
Well ok if that is the split then that makes sense. As an American that would mean about 90% of our population is "mixed race" :lol:
Sorry when I hear "race" I think "race" not "ethnicity" for some reason. I mean both are arbitrary definitions but they are different arbitrary defintions.
Doesn't it work on self-perception?
Given that I imagine younger age groups are more diverse and, I believe, London is the most fecund area in the country, it doesn't strike me as entirely implausible.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 02:57:09 PM
Doesn't it work on self-perception?
Given that I imagine younger age groups are more diverse and, I believe, London is the most fecund area in the country, it doesn't strike me as entirely implausible.
Really? Large cities are rarely that fecund because of contrained living space and cost of living.
But even if that is the case are Indians and Pakistanis really marrying native Brits in numbers that dwarf the numbers they marry inside their own group?
I think the largest group is black and white British (which again points to London), but I believe that other mixed race marriages are increasing quite rapidly. So more Asian Brits, from all ethnic backgrounds, are marrying people from other ethnicities at a far higher rate than used to be the case. I imagine this is more the case in more integrated areas like London.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 11, 2012, 03:14:30 PM
I think the largest group is black and white British (which again points to London), but I believe that other mixed race marriages are increasing quite rapidly. So more Asian Brits, from all ethnic backgrounds, are marrying people from other ethnicities at a far higher rate than used to be the case. I imagine this is more the case in more integrated areas like London.
Well of course they are increasing quite rapidly. They were probably close to zero thirty years ago. But what you are saying is that they have produced a plurality of the children for the past 16 years which is shocking...unless you go with mixed-ethicity as being mixed race.
I'm with Valmy. That's a really weird stat.
Perchance they mean of people who are ethnic, that's the largest group? I could see that fairly easily.
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2012, 02:17:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
Yeah, enjoy your cultural suicide.
When was the American cultural suicide?
A long time ago. Once Squanto et all helped Europeans get a foothold and then lost control of the immigration process, the Native American culture was doomed.
In general I'm pro immigration, but for the UK, I see the point of strong controls. It is a small country, but the only major English speaking country in the EU (and hence the major logical destination for europeans in depressed countries) plus has strong historical ties to large sections of the world.
Oh god, this more diversity news is going to be serious fuel for the fuckheads isnt it. :bleeding:
Though
QuoteThose of mixed ethnic origin have shot up,
bodes well to shut them up.
QuoteMore people now rent privately than rent from the council (down from 13% to 9%).
Yeah, cheers for the housing shortage Maggie.
Quote
On religion, the question has got to be why God seems to have forsaken the Welsh Valleys. They account for three of the five local authorities where "no religion" looms largest. The Northeast cleaves most notably to the God of its (mainly white British) forebears.
Yeah right.
Too many people just ticking the box for christian as its what they think they're meant to do when in reality they're just as irreligious as the rest of us.
QuoteMore than two-thirds chose English, and almost 58% chose only English—most strikingly in the North-East,
How sad :(
Though inevitable given all the money and interest that gets thrown Scotland's way, passing over us.
QuoteThis makes sense: why would you leave Poland to claim benefits in Sunderland? No, you go where the work is. This also makes sense since, as can hardly be stressed too often, emigration is almost by definition an entrepreneurial act.
This is a nice point. Really sticks it to those "OMG immigrants coming to steal benefits!" people.
QuoteThose workers have to come from somewhere and all the evidence is they won't come from Merseyside or Tyneside. These are places, mind you, that could do with more immigration too. Not to 'take' jobs from the native-born but to help stimulate demand. People are a stimulus too, remember.
Yeah, I won't, nothing at all to do with not being able to afford it.
I however welcome more hot foreign chicks.
I wonder if they in anyway differentiated between those who are settled in Britain and migrant workers? Its a well known thing with the Poles especially that they don't want to live in Britain forever, they just want to make some good money whilst they're young before going home to settle down.
___________________
QuoteWhat the Tories really need to be fighting is emmigration. Brits are still trying to colonise the world.
But it has nicer things....
QuoteOk so no the majority but the plurality.
How is that even possible with 80% of the population being ethnic brits and the second largest group being other various white folks? That would almost require every non-white person be in a mixed race relationship or the mixed race couples are producing babies at a shocking rate.
And wouldn't one follow the other unless mixed race kids are Britains #1 import?
I mean even in the US which a much much larger non-white population as a proportion that is not anywhere near true.
Opposites attract. You land yourself a hot black/asian/oriental/whatever chick, you're gonna go at it like bunnies?
Though I seriously wonder...mixed race here actually means mixed race right? Doesn't include Scottish/English or British/French?
Quote from: Valmy on December 11, 2012, 03:18:54 PM
Well of course they are increasing quite rapidly. They were probably close to zero thirty years ago. But what you are saying is that they have produced a plurality of the children for the past 16 years which is shocking...unless you go with mixed-ethicity as being mixed race.
I don't think that's it because it's about how people see themselves, I imagine a person with Irish and Spanish parents sees themselves as white Irish, white British or white other, not mixed race. Also the question asks people to specify their parentage (white-black is most common). Since 2001 the number of people identifying in this category has doubled, it looks like the biggest increase except for white other (hello Poles).
Yi could be right.
QuoteI wonder if they in anyway differentiated between those who are settled in Britain and migrant workers? Its a well known thing with the Poles especially that they don't want to live in Britain forever, they just want to make some good money whilst they're young before going home to settle down.
We'll see. That may have been the plan. They may have started to get nice jobs, or found a girlfriend. I suppose we'll know in 2021 how permanent it is.
The claim does not make sense Sheilbh, I will have to ask you for your sources :o
It sounds to me like an Islington-based journalist has got carried away with the multicultural wonderment of it all and grossly misinterpreted the figures. Innumerate articles are all too common in our press.
The only way I can see mixed-race being the largest group of births is if a one-drop rule is being applied and people who are part-Irish or whatever are being counted in the group.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 11, 2012, 06:58:20 PM
I'm with Valmy. That's a really weird stat.
Perchance they mean of people who are ethnic, that's the largest group? I could see that fairly easily.
Obviously that is it. By ethnic they mean non-white.
Quote from: Tyr on December 11, 2012, 07:54:01 PM
QuoteMore people now rent privately than rent from the council (down from 13% to 9%).
Yeah, cheers for the housing shortage Maggie.
The figures are distorted by private landlords renting to the council which is the case in at least two flats in my block. Same problem, but even more expensive for the council tax payer.
We've had 22 years since she was thrown out and the housing shortage has been evident since the war years and even before. She must truly be the Antichrist to have caused a 70-year long housing shortage :pope:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 12, 2012, 06:33:54 AM
We've had 22 years since she was thrown out and the housing shortage has been evident since the war years and even before. She must truly be the Antichrist to have caused a 70-year long housing shortage :pope:
she's just that good at being bad :contract: :P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 12, 2012, 06:33:54 AM
We've had 22 years since she was thrown out and the housing shortage has been evident since the war years and even before. She must truly be the Antichrist to have caused a 70-year long housing shortage :pope:
The important thing here is without her Britains would still be toiling away in coal mines. WHAT A MONSTER!
Quote from: Valmy on December 12, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
The important thing here is without her Britains would still be toiling away in coal mines. WHAT A MONSTER!
If the mines were still open we'd have found a way to pay Eastern Europeans to do it and complain about them stealing our jobs and our right to emphysema.
Quote from: Valmy on December 12, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 12, 2012, 06:33:54 AM
We've had 22 years since she was thrown out and the housing shortage has been evident since the war years and even before. She must truly be the Antichrist to have caused a 70-year long housing shortage :pope:
The important thing here is without her Britains would still be toiling away in coal mines. WHAT A MONSTER!
The curious thing is that during Harold Wilson's tenure as PM over 300 pits were closed, I believe Maggie only managed about 60 or so. Having said that the best mines were closed last, so there was some hope c.1980 that the industry would cease shrinking.
Closing the coal mines was good for the environment. Thatcher is a hero, Jos is an enviro-monster.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 12, 2012, 06:33:54 AM
We've had 22 years since she was thrown out and the housing shortage has been evident since the war years and even before. She must truly be the Antichrist to have caused a 70-year long housing shortage :pope:
The right to buy and halt on building any more council houses really exasperated it a lot.
QuoteThe important thing here is without her Britains would still be toiling away in coal mines. WHAT A MONSTER!
....eh?
Quote from: Jacob on December 11, 2012, 02:17:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 11, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
Yeah, enjoy your cultural suicide.
When was the American cultural suicide?
Civil Rights. It's nice to see Derspeiss isn't disappointing in this thread.
When they give the women the vote
I don't think cultural suicide is likely. It is a culture that was confined to 3m people on part of a small island 500 years ago. Now it is the dominant culture in North America and Australasia as well as virtually all the places in our archipelago. It has done that by constantly mutating whilst maintaining that tradition is always honoured and nothing ever changes..........quite a trick if you can pull it off.
What does concern me is integration and the potential formation of ghettoised groups. The black population, from Africa and the Caribbean, intermarries with the main population to an amazing extent ......to such an extent that they will not survive as a distinct group in the long run. The Irish are family, ok, it may be an abusive family especially in the past, but they are not "foreign". Poles and other Eastern European types; WW2 left about 300k Poles in Britain, by 2000 all that was left was a few ancients and British people with a strange name and a family history to tell. I think this will be repeated with the current crop, in any event the main difference is their language, the culture of our Polish immigrants is a good fit with lower-class British culture.
I do worry about the muslims. Many of our muslims come from crappy parts of Pakistan and Bangladesh.....which are hardly beacons of culture to start with. The intermarriage rate is also very low (it has crept up to 7% IIRC) and many cultural practices are not very compatible with British ways. We need to make education a priority for these people, otherwise their shitty position in British society could become a fixture.