QuoteMideast's Christians Declining in Influence
By ETHAN BRONNER
JERUSALEM — Christians used to be a vital force in the Middle East. They dominated Lebanon and filled top jobs in the Palestinian movement. In Egypt, they were wealthy beyond their number. In Iraq, they packed the universities and professions. Across the region, their orientation was a vital link to the West, a counterpoint to prevailing trends.
But as Pope Benedict XVI wends his way across the Holy Land this week, he is addressing a dwindling and threatened Christian population driven to emigration by political violence, lack of economic opportunity and the rise of radical Islam. A region that a century ago was 20 percent Christian is about 5 percent today and dropping.
Since it was here that Jesus walked and Christianity was born, the papal visit highlights a prospect many consider deeply troubling for the globe's largest faith, adhered to by a third of humanity — its most powerful and historic shrines could become museum relics with no connection to those who live among them.
"I fear the extinction of Christianity in Iraq and the Middle East," the Rev. Jean Benjamin Sleiman, the Catholic archbishop of Baghdad, said in a comment echoed across the region.
The pope, in a Mass on Tuesday at the foot of the Mount of Olives, addressed "the tragic reality" of the "departure of so many members of the Christian community in recent years."
He said: "While understandable reasons lead many, especially the young, to emigrate, this decision brings in its wake a great cultural and spiritual impoverishment to the city. Today I wish to repeat what I have said on other occasions: in the Holy Land there is room for everyone!"
On Sunday in Jordan the pope argued that Christians had a role here in reconciliation, that their very presence eased the strife, and that the decline of that presence could help to increase extremism. When the mix of beliefs and lifestyles goes down, orthodoxy rises, he implied, as does uniformity of the cultural landscape in a region where tolerance is not an outstanding virtue.
A Syrian international aid worker said, "When other Arabs find out that I am Christian, many seem shocked to discover that you can be both an Arab and a Christian." The worker asked to remain anonymous so as not to bring attention to his faith.
The Middle East is now, of course, overwhelmingly Muslim. Except for Israel, with its six million Jews, there is no country where Islam does not prevail. This includes Lebanon, where Christians now amount to a quarter of the population, and the non-Arab countries of Iran and Turkey.
Local Christians are torn between sounding the alarm and staying mum, unsure whether attention will reduce the problem or aggravate it by driving out those who remain.
With Islam pushing aside nationalism as the central force behind the politics of identity, Christians who played important roles in various national struggles find themselves left out. And since Islamic culture, especially in its more fundamental stripes, often defines itself in contrast to the West, Christianity has in some places been relegated to an enemy — or least foreign — culture.
"Unless there is a turn toward secularism in the Arab world, I don't think there is a future for Christians here," said Sarkis Naoum, a Christian columnist for the Lebanese newspaper Al Nahar.
Just as some opponents of President Obama sought to defame him by claiming he was a Muslim, so in Turkey was President Abdullah Gul accused of having Christian origins. Mr. Gul won a court case last December against a member of Parliament who made the accusation.
A century ago there were millions of Christians in what is today Turkey; now there are 150,000. There is a house in Turkey where the Virgin Mary is believed to have spent her last days, yet the country's National Assembly and military have no Christian members or officers except temporary recruits doing mandatory service. Violence against Christians has risen.
Among Palestinians, Islam is also playing an unprecedented role in defining identity, especially in Gaza, ruled by Hamas. Benedict's arrival in Jerusalem on Monday prompted a radical member of the legislature in Gaza to call on Arab governments not to greet him because of his contentious remark in 2006 regarding the Prophet Muhammad.
The West Bank Palestinian leadership, more secular, tries to include Christians to ward off separatist sentiments and stop the population decline. It has been a losing battle. In 1948, Jerusalem was about one-fifth Christian. Today it is 2 percent.
Rafiq Husseini, the chief of staff of President Mahmoud Abbas's office, said of the exodus of Christians: "It is a very negative thing if it continues to happen. Our task, from the president downwards, is to keep the presence of the Christians alive and well."
In Bethlehem, where the Church of the Nativity marks where Jesus is said to have been born, Christians now make up barely a third of the population after centuries of being 80 percent of it. Emigration is the first option for anyone who has the opportunity, and there are large communities of Christian émigrés throughout the West to absorb them.
"Economy, economy, economy," said Fayez Khano, 63, a member of the Assyrian community, explaining the reasons for the continuing exodus while cutting olive-wood figurines in his family workshop on Manger Street. Mr. Khano's three adult children live in Dublin, and since business is slow he and his wife are about to go to Dublin for six months.
The story has been similar in Iraq. Of the 1.4 million Christians there at the time of the American invasion in 2003, nearly half have fled, according to American government reports and local Iraqi Christians.
Many left early in the war when they were attacked for working with the Americans, but the exodus gained speed when Christians became targets in Iraq's raging sectarian war. Churches were bombed, and priests as well as lay Christians were murdered. As recently as March 2008, an archbishop was kidnapped and killed outside the northern city of Mosul.
And in Egypt, where 10 percent of the country is Coptic Christian, the prevalent religious discourse has drifted from what was considered to be a moderate Egyptian Islam toward a far less tolerant Saudi-branded Islam.
In Saudi Arabia, churches are illegal. In the rest of the Persian Gulf region, Christians are foreign workers without the prospect of citizenship.
The decline of the Christian population and voice in the region is not only a source of concern for Christians, but for broadminded Muslims as well.
"Here in Lebanon, Muslims will often tell you Lebanon is no good without the Christians, and they mean it," said Kemal Salibi, a historian. "The mix of religions and cultures that makes this place so tolerant would disappear."
You know what makes a brilliant, advanced society? Kicking out all the educated, hard working minorities. Yup. Nothing quite like it.
Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/world/middleeast/13christians.html?_r=1&ref=world)
We should have made Lebanon into some kind of Israel for Mid-East Christians. Maybe include the entire Levantine coast north of Israel, including the Syrian coast. Real shame that the greatest people of the region are forced to leave because the region's growing insanity. <_<
Also, the Iraqi Christian girl in the article is cute:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2F05%2F13%2Fworld%2F13christians2_600.JPG&hash=596ad1894d4a78419a0f2742ba36980df65df6ac)
You should give up on making thread titles, just call 'em "MP's random thought/item from news source #" and then insert a random number. :)
Kick his ass Squeelus.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2009, 02:28:23 PM
Kick his ass Squeelus.
Spellus would have to look up Byzantine and Persian references before kicking anybody's ass.
This has been going on for a long time. There are millions of people of Christian Lebanese descent in Argentina, Brazil, and the US.
Christian people shouldn't live there. They'd be happier someplace else.
Leave Muslim land to the Muslims.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 13, 2009, 02:29:30 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 13, 2009, 02:28:23 PM
Kick his ass Squeelus.
Spellus would have to look up Byzantine and Persian references before kicking anybody's ass.
:lol:
Okay, if I ever get my hands on a genuine ram's head mace like the Persian Shahs would have used, I'll consider beating up someone with it.
Not Garbo though. He seems to hate me, but I don't care enough about it to do anything other than ignore him most of the time. He has the odd good moment, too, though his ratio of good posts/bad posts is sub-Raz.
Was the possum reference really necessary?
spawning like coons? :)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2009, 02:41:10 PM
Was the possum reference really necessary?
Well, golly gee!
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2009, 02:41:10 PM
Was the possum reference really necessary?
Rats and arthropods seemed overly offensive. Possums tend to not blow themselves up or throw acid in female possum's faces, to be fair.
Gotta love islam.
Quote from: Queequeg on May 13, 2009, 02:40:47 PM
Not Garbo though. He seems to hate me
Don't be ridiculous, hate requires effort.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 02:45:27 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 13, 2009, 02:40:47 PM
Not Garbo though. He seems to hate me
Don't be ridiculous, hate requires effort.
And effort requires work. :( :yoda:
Quote from: The Brain on May 13, 2009, 02:47:07 PM
And effort requires work. :( :yoda:
I thought work required effort.
QuoteA Syrian international aid worker said, "When other Arabs find out that I am Christian, many seem shocked to discover that you can be both an Arab and a Christian." The worker asked to remain anonymous so as not to bring attention to his faith.
That sort of says it all right there.
Interesting there is so much hysteria about the horrid Islamophobia going on in the West when the death of ancient Christian cultures is going on in the East and nobody cares.
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 03:18:44 PM
Interesting there is so much hysteria about the horrid Islamophobia going on in the West when the death of ancient Christian cultures is going on in the East and nobody cares.
I guess not everyone is interested in the protecting every little culture that one can find.
Yeah, a sad trend, Christians moving out of the Mideast, and I figured that it's been going on for a while.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:22:30 PM
I guess not everyone is interested in the protecting every little culture that one can find.
:(
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:22:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 03:18:44 PM
Interesting there is so much hysteria about the horrid Islamophobia going on in the West when the death of ancient Christian cultures is going on in the East and nobody cares.
I guess not everyone is interested in the protecting every little culture that one can find.
That would be a sensible response if he was not directly comparing to to the concern people show over perceived Islamaphobia in the West.
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 03:23:47 PM
That would be a sensible response if he was not directly comparing to to the concern people show over perceived Islamaphobia in the West.
Islamaphobia has, in part, to deal with perceived threat to our cultures. I don't see why scared Westerners would perceive smaller Christian cultures in the Middle East as equivalent to Western cultures.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
Islamaphobia has, in part, to deal with perceived threat to our cultures. I don't see why scared Westerners would perceive smaller Christian cultures in the Middle East as equivalent to Western cultures.
Likewise why would those same Westerners care about Islamophobia? What are you talking about?
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
Islamaphobia has, in part, to deal with perceived threat to our cultures. I don't see why scared Westerners would perceive smaller Christian cultures in the Middle East as equivalent to Western cultures.
Likewise why would those same Westerners care about Islamophobia? What are you talking about?
You mentioned Islam, so garby is going into his reflexive "defend Islam" mode. Don't worry about it.
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Likewise why would those same Westerners care about Islamophobia? What are you talking about?
Well those Westerners are the ones engaging in Islamophobia...:unsure:
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 03:23:47 PM
That would be a sensible response if he was not directly comparing to to the concern people show over perceived Islamaphobia in the West.
Islamaphobia has, in part, to deal with perceived threat to our cultures.
CAN WE GET A TRANSLATOR IN HERE????
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
Islamaphobia has, in part, to deal with perceived threat to our cultures. I don't see why scared Westerners would perceive smaller Christian cultures in the Middle East as equivalent to Western cultures.
Likewise why would those same Westerners care about Islamophobia? What are you talking about?
I'm not even sure he knows what he's distainfully sneering about. :lol:
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 03:34:56 PM
You mentioned Islam, so garby is going into his reflexive "defend Islam" mode. Don't worry about it.
Not in this instance no. I just fail to see why if a person in...let's say France, was terrified of muslims who won't participate in French culture (and thus see Islam as a threat) would be up in arms about smaller Middle Eastern cultures being erased by Islam.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:36:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 03:34:56 PM
You mentioned Islam, so garby is going into his reflexive "defend Islam" mode. Don't worry about it.
Not in this instance no. I just fail to see why if a person in...let's say France, was terrified of muslims who won't participate in French culture (and thus see Islam as a threat) would be up in arms about smaller Middle Eastern cultures being erased by Islam.
But that has nothing to do with what Valmy said.
He was just pointing out that people like you will fly to the defense of Islam and attack the crafted threat of "Islamaphobia" while not apparently caring much about the vastly greater xenophobia shown by Muslims when the roles are reversed.
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 03:38:55 PM
But that has nothing to do with what Valmy said.
He was just pointing out that people like you will fly to the defense of Islam and attack the crafted threat of "Islamaphobia" while not apparently caring much about the vastly greater xenophobia shown by Muslims when the roles are reversed.
Oh, I misread his post. Sorry, Valmy.
To Valmy's actual point (:blush:), that's probably not a fair characterization of anyone's views. I hardly think Islam should get a free pass on anything, but I'm not going to run around about how it is the root of all evil like Siege, DP, Grallon, Slargos, Marti, etc. You shouldn't be surprised therefore that I'm not going to spend time attacking Islam as I think those bases are sufficiently covered. ;)
Odd so much sympathy for people who would normally be sneered at here.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2009, 03:47:25 PM
Odd so much sympathy for people who would normally be sneered at here.
Who sneers at Christians here, other than Marty?
I'm pretty sure we all like to crucify the Religious Reich and various other fundi's on a regular basis. However, lately, there's other good targets of opportunity so they are getting a bible break.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:35:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Likewise why would those same Westerners care about Islamophobia? What are you talking about?
Well those Westerners are the ones engaging in Islamophobia...:unsure:
I'm not an Islamophobe, I'm a Muslim Arabaphobe. I tend to think of most other Muslims as the victims of Arab insanity.
Quote from: saskganesh on May 13, 2009, 04:16:16 PM
I'm pretty sure we all like to crucify the Religious Reich and various other fundi's on a regular basis. However, lately, there's other good targets of opportunity so they are getting a bible break.
Sure, Languish is hard on fundys of all striped, that doesn't mean it is hostile to Christians in general though.
Some of my best friends love Jesus!
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 04:17:35 PM
Sure, Languish is hard on fundys of all striped, that doesn't mean it is hostile to Christians in general though.
Some of my best friends love Jesus!
Marcin is now infatuated with a gay Spaniard? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 03:42:51 PM
To Valmy's actual point (:blush:), that's probably not a fair characterization of anyone's views. I hardly think Islam should get a free pass on anything, but I'm not going to run around about how it is the root of all evil like Siege, DP, Grallon, Slargos, Marti, etc. You shouldn't be surprised therefore that I'm not going to spend time attacking Islam as I think those bases are sufficiently covered. ;)
I got you covered.
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 04:09:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2009, 03:47:25 PM
Odd so much sympathy for people who would normally be sneered at here.
Who sneers at Christians here, other than Marty?
I don't sneer at Christians, either, at least not any more than I sneer at any monotheists.
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:28:09 PM
I don't sneer at Christians, either, at least not any more than I sneer at any monotheists.
Why do you distinguish between monotheists and other theists?
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 05:29:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:28:09 PM
I don't sneer at Christians, either, at least not any more than I sneer at any monotheists.
Why do you distinguish between monotheists and other theists?
While it's not an universal rule, monotheists seem to have a tendency to be more stuck up and full of themselves, metaphysically and theologically, than polytheists. Plus, as a Westerner, their beliefs have a much greater (and negative) influence on my life. Perhaps if I lived in India, I'd sneer at polytheists.
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 05:29:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:28:09 PM
I don't sneer at Christians, either, at least not any more than I sneer at any monotheists.
Why do you distinguish between monotheists and other theists?
Don't mind him. He's just trying to sound clever, and failing.
Quote from: Queequeg on May 13, 2009, 04:17:32 PM
I'm not an Islamophobe, I'm a Muslim Arabaphobe. I tend to think of most other Muslims as the victims of Arab insanity.
Well historically they were. That's how they became muslims.
Quote from: Queequeg on May 13, 2009, 02:20:00 PM
You know what makes a brilliant, advanced society? Kicking out all the educated, hard working minorities. Yup. Nothing quite like it.
For some reaosn, I read this statement and my first thought was "All Germans in Eastern Europe after 1918."
QuoteWe should have made Lebanon into some kind of Israel for Mid-East Christians. Maybe include the entire Levantine coast north of Israel, including the Syrian coast. Real shame that the greatest people of the region are forced to leave because the region's growing insanity.
Ethnic cleansing. The cause of, and solution ot, all of life's problems!
Quote from: Faeelin on May 13, 2009, 09:07:50 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 13, 2009, 02:20:00 PM
You know what makes a brilliant, advanced society? Kicking out all the educated, hard working minorities. Yup. Nothing quite like it.
For some reaosn, I read this statement and my first thought was "All Germans in Eastern Europe after 1918."
QuoteWe should have made Lebanon into some kind of Israel for Mid-East Christians. Maybe include the entire Levantine coast north of Israel, including the Syrian coast. Real shame that the greatest people of the region are forced to leave because the region's growing insanity.
Ethnic cleansing. The cause of, and solution ot, all of life's problems!
I would call it religious cleansing.
When there is a religion that doesn't play well with others, it is our moral duty to eliminate it.
Quote from: Faeelin on May 13, 2009, 09:07:50 PM
For some reaosn, I read this statement and my first thought was "All Germans in Eastern Europe after 1918."
I presume you meant all Germans in Eastern Europe after 1945. And Hitler sort of set them up by using them as a fifth column for his Eastern Europe ambitions. The Eastern Europeans came to see the Germans as a security risk since they sorta had been for ten years. And it was World War 2 and what had been unthinkable in 1935 was suddenly standard operation by 1945. Context is important. The Eastern Europeans certainly would never have done that in 1918 and without the horror of World War 2.
QuoteEthnic cleansing. The cause of, and solution ot, all of life's problems!
I remembered reading about what the French did when they created Lebanon. They basically took the area around Mount Lebanon that the Christians actually controlled and gave them a bunch of Muslim inhabited territory. I do think it probably would have been more natural to have made Lebanon smaller and more homogeneous but the Euros were always pretty poor at drawing up new country borders. If Spellus meant that I agree with him. But he seems to have meant giving the whole coast to the Christians which is basically what the French tried to do and look how lovely that worked out?
Quote from: Siege on May 13, 2009, 09:10:21 PM
I would call it religious cleansing.
When there is a religion that doesn't play well with others, it is our moral duty to eliminate it.
You cannot really eliminate a 1 billion person religion even if such a thing was not completely counter to everything we Westerners represent. Freedom of thought, expression, and religion remember?
Quote from: Siege on May 13, 2009, 09:10:21 PM
I would call it religious cleansing.
When there is a religion that doesn't play well with others, it is our moral duty to eliminate it.
They were doing just fine before the Israelis came along. The solution is to eliminate Israel.
QuoteFor some reaosn, I read this statement and my first thought was "All Germans in Eastern Europe after 1918."
Or what the Germans did to the Jews. Empires that are comfortable with minorities tend to be the better ones.
QuoteEthnic cleansing. The cause of, and solution ot, all of life's problems!
"Should."
They are now landless, scattered into the wind by a host of the brutal, ignorant jihadists and the worst governments that side of Sub-Saharan Africa. Should have given them, and the Kurds, their own country.
Why must everyone always have their own homeland? My ancestors didn't feel the need for a homeland so great that they didn't pack up and leave for America.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2009, 10:40:07 PM
Why must everyone always have their own homeland? My ancestors didn't feel the need for a homeland so great that they didn't pack up and leave for America.
If they didn't feel the need for a homeland then why did they establish one in America?
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2009, 10:40:07 PM
Why must everyone always have their own homeland? My ancestors didn't feel the need for a homeland so great that they didn't pack up and leave for America.
If they didn't feel the need for a homeland then why did they establish one in America?
I think everyone here, no matter how much they hate the Mid-East, has to admit that it is better than Detroit.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2009, 10:40:07 PM
Why must everyone always have their own homeland?
I don't know. It is a very bizarre concept to me. While I'd be sad if I never went to Southern California again, I'd manage. :)
Quote from: Faeelin on May 13, 2009, 09:07:50 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on May 13, 2009, 02:20:00 PM
You know what makes a brilliant, advanced society? Kicking out all the educated, hard working minorities. Yup. Nothing quite like it.
For some reaosn, I read this statement and my first thought was "All Germans in Eastern Europe after 1918."
QuoteWe should have made Lebanon into some kind of Israel for Mid-East Christians. Maybe include the entire Levantine coast north of Israel, including the Syrian coast. Real shame that the greatest people of the region are forced to leave because the region's growing insanity.
Ethnic cleansing. The cause of, and solution ot, all of life's problems!
It worked for the Turks. :)
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on May 14, 2009, 03:45:24 AM
It worked for the Turks. :)
Irrelevant. Since Turks were being cleansed from Greece at the same time the net effect should be zero, unless we invert the shield polarity flux capacitor output :nerd:
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 10:50:04 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2009, 10:40:07 PM
Why must everyone always have their own homeland? My ancestors didn't feel the need for a homeland so great that they didn't pack up and leave for America.
If they didn't feel the need for a homeland then why did they establish one in America?
They established a home. Not a homeland. Most of them didn't have any thought of carving out their own country in the New World. Maybe one...
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:35:27 PM
While it's not an universal rule, monotheists seem to have a tendency to be more stuck up and full of themselves, metaphysically and theologically, than polytheists. Plus, as a Westerner, their beliefs have a much greater (and negative) influence on my life. Perhaps if I lived in India, I'd sneer at polytheists.
Don't forget that Marti used to be a Wiccan. :)
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 06:58:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:35:27 PM
While it's not an universal rule, monotheists seem to have a tendency to be more stuck up and full of themselves, metaphysically and theologically, than polytheists. Plus, as a Westerner, their beliefs have a much greater (and negative) influence on my life. Perhaps if I lived in India, I'd sneer at polytheists.
Don't forget that Marti used to be a Wiccan. :)
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:01:28 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 06:58:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:35:27 PM
While it's not an universal rule, monotheists seem to have a tendency to be more stuck up and full of themselves, metaphysically and theologically, than polytheists. Plus, as a Westerner, their beliefs have a much greater (and negative) influence on my life. Perhaps if I lived in India, I'd sneer at polytheists.
Don't forget that Marti used to be a Wiccan. :)
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME.
it's true. he's the reincarnation of a jewish princess from Toronto.
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 06:58:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:35:27 PM
While it's not an universal rule, monotheists seem to have a tendency to be more stuck up and full of themselves, metaphysically and theologically, than polytheists. Plus, as a Westerner, their beliefs have a much greater (and negative) influence on my life. Perhaps if I lived in India, I'd sneer at polytheists.
Don't forget that Marti used to be a Wiccan. :)
You have got to be shitting me. It's like he's repulsed by idea of being taken seriously or respected.
Quote from: Valmy on May 13, 2009, 09:44:16 PM
I presume you meant all Germans in Eastern Europe after 1945. And Hitler sort of set them up by using them as a fifth column for his Eastern Europe ambitions. The Eastern Europeans came to see the Germans as a security risk since they sorta had been for ten years. And it was World War 2 and what had been unthinkable in 1935 was suddenly standard operation by 1945. Context is important. The Eastern Europeans certainly would never have done that in 1918 and without the horror of World War 2.
But tens of thousands of Germans were expelled after 1918; over a hundred thousand "voluntarily departed" from Poland alone. In some countries, the use of German was forbidden, German churches were oppressed,
Orphans of Versailles is a really good book on Poland's Germans. And boy, did 1939 feel sweet for a lot of them.
A lot of the batshittiness that comes out of the Islamic world sounds very similar to Europe less than a hundred years ago.
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 06:58:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 05:35:27 PM
While it's not an universal rule, monotheists seem to have a tendency to be more stuck up and full of themselves, metaphysically and theologically, than polytheists. Plus, as a Westerner, their beliefs have a much greater (and negative) influence on my life. Perhaps if I lived in India, I'd sneer at polytheists.
Don't forget that Marti used to be a Wiccan. :)
NO!
Quote from: Faeelin on May 14, 2009, 08:58:49 AM
A lot of the batshittiness that comes out of the Islamic world sounds very similar to Europe less than a hundred years ago.
Wow that is quite a brutal indictment. Surely it is not that bad.