Didn't want to click that link at work, but I think this Discover blog post sums it up pretty good. If you want to read the whole article, there's a link you can click.
So, supposing this is true, what should we do with these folks?
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/pedophiles-born-that-way/#more-18272
QuotePedophiles: born that way?
Gawker published a piece on the neurological problems which might result in pedophilia, and naturally a lot of shock and disgust was triggered. The piece is titled Born This Way: Sympathy and Science for Those Who Want to Have Sex with Children. This isn't something you want to click through to lightly. So fair warning. The neurobiological material did pique my interest:
Quote"There was nothing significant in the frontal lobes or temporal lobes," says Cantor. "It turned out the differences weren't in the grey matter. The differences were in the white matter."
"The white matter" is the shorthand term for groupings of myelinated axons and glial cells that transmit signals throughout the gray matter that composes the cerebrum. Think of the gray matter like the houses on a specific electricity grid and the white matter like the cabling connecting those houses to the grid.
"There doesn't seem to be a pedophilia center in the brain," says Cantor. "Instead, there's either not enough of this cabling, not the correct kind of cabling, or it's wiring the wrong areas together, so instead of the brain evoking protective or parental instincts when these people see children, it's instead evoking sexual instincts. There's almost literally a crossed wiring."
The good news, according to Cantor, is that it if they can figure out how the wiring gets crossed, they might be able to suggest ways pregnant mothers can help ensure their baby is unlikely to be born a pedophile. "It is quite possible that one or more components of the process are related to prenatal stresses like poor maternal nutrition, toxin exposure, ill health, or poor health care," he says. "If so, then improving health and health care in general may reduce the numbers of people vulnerable to developing pedophilia, as well as other problems."
Fair enough as far as that goes. I think it is important to look at controversial and explosive topics objectively. You don't always need to be objective about the issue at hand, or lack opinions, but you need to step back and analyze in a value-free manner on occasion. For me the confusing thing is that to my knowledge Gawker today takes conventionally Leftish stances on "nature vs. nurture" type issues. Would they post something by Steven Pinker defending the concept of robust behavioral differences between the sexes? So why are they sticking their necks out here?
In any case, I think the problem with the Gawker piece is that it doesn't really come off as a cold and rational assessment. Rather, there is genuine sympathy for people who are afflicted with the mental disease of pedophilia. The author finishes:
QuoteThe old adage is that the true mark of a society is how it treats the weakest in its ranks. Blacks, women, Latinos, gays and lesbians, and others are still in no way on wholly equal footing in America. But they're also not nearly as lowly and cursed as men attracted to children. One imagines that if Jesus ever came to Earth, he'd embrace the poor, the blind, the lepers, and, yes, the pedophiles. As a self-professed "progressive," when I think of the world I'd like to live in, I like to imagine that one day I'd be OK with a man like Terry moving next door to me and my children. I like to think that I could welcome him in for dinner, break bread with him, and offer him the same blessings he's offered me time and again. And what hurts to admit, even knowing all I know now, is that I'm not positive I could do that.
I'm not a professed "progressive." I can see where the author is coming from probably (and so can Jonathan Haidt)...but can my progressive readers get into his mind here? Does being progressive mean you can not take into account probability to any extent? That you need to treat people as singular individuals in even the most extreme cases? For example, in the case of a pedophile who has never acted upon their instincts one presumes that they could find social acquaintances who were childless. Many biological dispositions aren't deterministic, they're probabilistic. That means controlling or channeling them in non-destructive ways entails changing the situations and contexts one is placed it. That's not unjust, that's just common sense. You aren't a bad person to think it is prudent that someone with pedophile urges should avoid developing close friendships with people with young children.
Many of my liberal readers and friends have expressed the position that if a hereditarian position was true for a range of issue that that would result in a lot of unpleasant normative and political downstream consequences. I'm generally skeptical of this position. I have plenty of hereditarian ideas, and believe it or not I'm not a hateful Nazi. But the response above to the possibility that pedophilia has a biological basis does make me reconsider. I'm not a neo-Freudian, so I had always assumed that this behavior and tendency had neurobiological roots. That didn't make me any more sympathetic to individuals who committed unmentionable acts. The world isn't fair, unfortunately.
They should resist the impulse...though obviously I can understand that it must be hard to combat one's own brain wiring.
It's not new. And we had a thread here about the same issue. It was a Canadian professor who suggested this last time. Well, the part where they are born that way, not the part about welcoming them with open arms.
I think it make sense, that they are born that way and can't help feeling the attraction. It just means that no therapy is going to work and we have to find other ways to control them, until such time as we can develop a cure.
[Troll]So pedophiles are basically the same as gays, only socially shunned?[/Troll]
I'm not so sure about them being entirely born that way, nurture plays a large role too.
But I don't think its too trollish to draw a parallel between paedos and gays. Both are attracted to people outside of the 'normal' range; the difference comes in however with gay people being able to have fun with each other and no harm done whilst paedos have to hurt kids.
I'd definitely agree with treating paedophillia as an affliction. I remember the last thread about good paedos who were able to control themself and not give in to their impulses.
I seem to recall a story some time ago about someone getting in trouble for having a lot of paedo manga- which is weird, you'd think such stuff would be encouraged as a safe outlet for paedophiles.
I've brought it up a couple of times. Throws Marty in a rage, but that wasn't the point. I think it's a serious ethical issue. I see a serious disconnect in the way mental health regards both. If it's barbaric and pointless to treat one, why is it okay to treat another? If they are both biological then treatment or non treatment should be regarded the same.
I would find it very strange if there wasn't a large social influence. Victims become offenders, and there are entire societies where it is tolerated or even upheld.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
I've brought it up a couple of times. Throws Marty in a rage, but that wasn't the point. I think it's a serious ethical issue. I see a serious disconnect in the way mental health regards both. If it's barbaric and pointless to treat one, why is it okay to treat another? If they are both biological then treatment or non treatment should be regarded the same.
One triggers behaviour harmful to others and is impossible to satisfy without hurting others. The other isn't.
You could just as well claim that a taste for human flesh is no different than a taste for cucumbers.
Quote from: Tyr on September 11, 2012, 01:19:27 AM
I'm not so sure about them being entirely born that way, nurture plays a large role too.
But I don't think its too trollish to draw a parallel between paedos and gays. Both are attracted to people outside of the 'normal' range; the difference comes in however with gay people being able to have fun with each other and no harm done whilst paedos have to hurt kids.
I'd definitely agree with treating paedophillia as an affliction. I remember the last thread about good paedos who were able to control themself and give in to their impulses.
This.
Incidentally, I think the whole nature vs. nurture debate is useless when it comes to determining people's rights and obligations. Whether sexual orientation or sexual attraction to children is inborn or determined in early years of human development (whether in uterus or after birth) is really not that relevant.
The rule that you should be able to do whatever you want with your life as long as it involves consenting adults and does not harm others should be the prime directive, really.
QuoteI seem to recall a story some time ago about someone getting in trouble for having a lot of paedo manga- which is weird, you'd think such stuff would be encouraged as a safe outlet for paedophiles.
There is also an opposite theory that it may be a "gateway drug" to trying it with an actual child.
Quote from: Tyr on September 11, 2012, 01:19:27 AM
I seem to recall a story some time ago about someone getting in trouble for having a lot of paedo manga- which is weird, you'd think such stuff would be encouraged as a safe outlet for paedophiles.
Biggest stash of kiddie porn I ever saw was a guy's collection of Sears, JC Penney and Wards catalogs from the 1980s. Had them stacked like phone books in his bedroom.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2012, 02:48:38 AM
There is also an opposite theory that it may be a "gateway drug" to trying it with an actual child.
I can see the point. Certainly a danger for those who may otherwise have no interest in kids getting into that stuff and then....
But I recall reading a study years ago of porn addicts and how they became unable to form real relationships nor even really care about real relationships- real women just couldn't match up to all the choice they had on offer online
Quote from: Tyr on September 11, 2012, 06:52:51 AM
But I recall reading a study years ago of porn addicts and how they became unable to form real relationships nor even really care about real relationships- real women just couldn't match up to all the choice they had on offer online
Well, duh.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 06:50:55 AM
Biggest stash of kiddie porn I ever saw was a guy's collection of Sears, JC Penney and Wards catalogs from the 1980s. Had them stacked like phone books in his bedroom.
:huh:
Sears catalogs are considered porn?
@Marty- I'm sure human flesh tastes much better than cucumbers. :yucky:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 11, 2012, 07:29:46 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 06:50:55 AM
Biggest stash of kiddie porn I ever saw was a guy's collection of Sears, JC Penney and Wards catalogs from the 1980s. Had them stacked like phone books in his bedroom.
:huh:
Sears catalogs are considered porn?
All those catalogs used to have little boys and girls modelling underwear in them.
There is a huge amount of crossover between gays and pedophiles.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 11, 2012, 07:29:46 AM
@Marty- I'm sure human flesh tastes much better than cucumbers. :yucky:
No way human flesh has the clean cool taste of a fresh cucumber :mmm:
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2012, 02:48:38 AM
Incidentally, I think the whole nature vs. nurture debate is useless when it comes to determining people's rights and obligations.
Indeed. Only only matters in regards to how to combat dangerous deviant behaviors like child sexual abuse. For as you say:
QuoteThere is also an opposite theory that it may be a "gateway drug" to trying it with an actual child.
Because if it is nature then there is no need to worry about "gateway drugs" but rather they serve as just a 'flag' for people who are naturally dangerous. If it is nurture then it might require different sorts of societal interventions.
The idea that a complex behavior is hard wired in the brain simplifies human bio-cultural actions. To say there is no (or very little) social aspect or biological aspect makes humans either machines that are not at fault (or should be euthanized) or culture machines divorced from the body.
Either way is stupid.
Quote from: PDH on September 11, 2012, 08:41:55 AM
The idea that a complex behavior is hard wired in the brain simplifies human bio-cultural actions. To say there is no (or very little) social aspect or biological aspect makes humans either machines that are not at fault (or should be euthanized) or culture machines divorced from the body.
Either way is stupid.
It must be black or white! :angry:
I like mocha.
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2012, 08:44:53 AM
It must be black or white! :angry:
It is ok to be both.
Quote from: PDH on September 11, 2012, 08:41:55 AM
The idea that a complex behavior is hard wired in the brain simplifies human bio-cultural actions. To say there is no (or very little) social aspect or biological aspect makes humans either machines that are not at fault (or should be euthanized) or culture machines divorced from the body.
Who says it's complex behavior? Sexual wiring is as basic wiring as it gets. It's a base physiological drive. Read your Maslow from high school.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2012, 02:45:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
I've brought it up a couple of times. Throws Marty in a rage, but that wasn't the point. I think it's a serious ethical issue. I see a serious disconnect in the way mental health regards both. If it's barbaric and pointless to treat one, why is it okay to treat another? If they are both biological then treatment or non treatment should be regarded the same.
One triggers behaviour harmful to others and is impossible to satisfy without hurting others. The other isn't.
You could just as well claim that a taste for human flesh is no different than a taste for cucumbers.
You are hiding behind cultural mores and law. If we lived in a society like ancient Greece where they was considered normal then what?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 08:57:47 AM
Quote from: PDH on September 11, 2012, 08:41:55 AM
The idea that a complex behavior is hard wired in the brain simplifies human bio-cultural actions. To say there is no (or very little) social aspect or biological aspect makes humans either machines that are not at fault (or should be euthanized) or culture machines divorced from the body.
Who says it's complex behavior? Sexual wiring is as basic wiring as it gets. It's a base physiological drive. Read your Maslow from high school.
Alls I know is that, many years ago, I was called in to take an additional statement from a client of my firm who we were representing on an indian residential school claim. This client was now in his 70s, and too ill to be able to travel into town to come to our office, so I went out to his reserve. He then, under the cover of solicitor-client privilege (so I'm not telling you any identifying information) proceeded to tell me how he had been sexually molested as a young boy by other students at the school. He then went on to tell me his great shame - that he in turn molested the younger boys when he grew older.
So yeah - sexual wiring is pretty fucking complex.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 08:57:47 AM
Who says it's complex behavior? Sexual wiring is as basic wiring as it gets. It's a base physiological drive. Read your Maslow from high school.
Maslow was a kook.
Procreation might be basic, sex is complex. Hell, even in Maslow it is middle of the pyramid (not physiological, it is belonging), not basic at all.
Self actualized my ass.
Agree that Maslow is a kook.
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
So yeah - sexual wiring is pretty fucking complex.
Nonsense. Why one would whip asian chicks with Hot Wheels tracks is pretty fucking simple to figure out: it's fun.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
So yeah - sexual wiring is pretty fucking complex.
Nonsense. Why one would whip asian chicks with Hot Wheels tracks is pretty fucking simple to figure out: it's fun.
This I will never understand. How can it be fun to administer pain to another person, whether or not they are willing?
Quote from: derspiess on September 11, 2012, 02:42:10 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
So yeah - sexual wiring is pretty fucking complex.
Nonsense. Why one would whip asian chicks with Hot Wheels tracks is pretty fucking simple to figure out: it's fun.
This I will never understand. How can it be fun to administer pain to another person, whether or not they are willing?
Such is the complexity of sexuality
Quote from: derspiess on September 11, 2012, 02:42:10 PM
This I will never understand. How can it be fun to administer pain to another person, whether or not they are willing?
I dunno, gives me a boner, what the fuck you want me to say?
Quote from: derspiess on September 11, 2012, 02:42:10 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 11, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
So yeah - sexual wiring is pretty fucking complex.
Nonsense. Why one would whip asian chicks with Hot Wheels tracks is pretty fucking simple to figure out: it's fun.
This I will never understand. How can it be fun to administer pain to another person, whether or not they are willing?
:huh:
Anyway, I don't like ugly people just because they were born that way.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 11, 2012, 03:31:11 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 11, 2012, 02:42:10 PM
This I will never understand. How can it be fun to administer pain to another person, whether or not they are willing?
I dunno, gives me a boner, what the fuck you want me to say?
Just trying to understand :) I thought maybe you could say *something* that would substantiate it being pleasurable, as I imagine I could elaborate on what I like, boring as it may be by comparison.
Quote from: derspiess on September 14, 2012, 02:27:53 PM
as I imagine I could elaborate on what I like
But could you elaborate on why?
Quote from: derspiess on September 14, 2012, 02:41:19 PM
Yeah. That's what I meant.
I'm not sure I can. I mean I could detail out specific things that I like about men but I'm not sure that'd explain why I like them - just further specifics on the bits I enjoy. :D