Just listening to a radio 4 podcast about the Greek and wider Euro crisis and at the very end the historians were asked if there were optomistic or not, the last word went to the guy who said "there's not a lot of optimism in history it seems to me"
Do you agree with him ?
I've just found his website and his post about the interview:
http://ww2history.com/blog/ww2-relevance/optimism-and-history/ (http://ww2history.com/blog/ww2-relevance/optimism-and-history/)
going a bit hegelian here aren't we, optimism is a state of mind regarding the nature of the future, history is the study of the past. I don't see how optimism has anything to do with history unless you are a certain kind of german philosopher?
Quote from: Viking on August 24, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
going a bit hegelian here aren't we, optimism is a state of mind regarding the nature of the future, history is the study of the past. I don't see how optimism has anything to do with history unless you are a certain kind of german philosopher?
So in your mind the present is an impermeable brick wall ?
Quote from: mongers on August 24, 2012, 05:25:02 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 24, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
going a bit hegelian here aren't we, optimism is a state of mind regarding the nature of the future, history is the study of the past. I don't see how optimism has anything to do with history unless you are a certain kind of german philosopher?
So in your mind the present is an impermeable brick wall ?
No, I don't think optimism and history have anything to do with each other, if they did I couldn't get out of bed in the morning NASA (http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/) tries and fails to watch the big rocks floating around near earth. They are sufficiently bad at tracking these rocks that at any time we can choose to mention we are never more than a few hours away from the extinction of the human race.
History is collective human experience and as such should be a tool to achieve the ends we see as good rather than brooding about if we are in a golden age or not (unless we are talking about animation).
There have been many optimists throughout history.
I disagree with him. The one consistent trend throughout history has been progress and improvement.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 24, 2012, 06:21:53 PM
I disagree with him. The one consistent trend throughout history has been progress and improvement.
Well, there were the Dark Ages, and the First World War.
Quote from: Neil on August 24, 2012, 06:44:06 PM
Well, there were the Dark Ages, and the First World War.
Do you know what a trend is Neil?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 24, 2012, 06:49:21 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 24, 2012, 06:44:06 PM
Well, there were the Dark Ages, and the First World War.
Do you know what a trend is Neil?
And then there's the modern era. Progress ended in mid-December 1972.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 24, 2012, 06:21:53 PM
I disagree with him. The one consistent trend throughout history has been progress and improvement.
Agreed, but for some continents more than others.
There's a reason so many Europeans wear black and walk around sullen and jaded all the time.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 24, 2012, 07:10:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 24, 2012, 06:21:53 PM
I disagree with him. The one consistent trend throughout history has been progress and improvement.
Agreed, but for some continents more than others.
There's a reason so many Europeans wear black and walk around sullen and jaded all the time.
Hang on, I though you were a bit of a goth in your youth, or is that another languishite ?
Quote from: mongers on August 24, 2012, 05:25:02 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 24, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
going a bit hegelian here aren't we, optimism is a state of mind regarding the nature of the future, history is the study of the past. I don't see how optimism has anything to do with history unless you are a certain kind of german philosopher?
So in your mind the present is an impermeable brick wall ?
Sure is. I've never been able to get to the future. When I think I have arrived it turns out to be the present again. I've even had worse luck going to the past.
Quote from: Viking on August 24, 2012, 05:32:58 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 24, 2012, 05:25:02 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 24, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
going a bit hegelian here aren't we, optimism is a state of mind regarding the nature of the future, history is the study of the past. I don't see how optimism has anything to do with history unless you are a certain kind of german philosopher?
So in your mind the present is an impermeable brick wall ?
No, I don't think optimism and history have anything to do with each other, if they did I couldn't get out of bed in the morning NASA (http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/) tries and fails to watch the big rocks floating around near earth. They are sufficiently bad at tracking these rocks that at any time we can choose to mention we are never more than a few hours away from the extinction of the human race.
History is collective human experience and as such should be a tool to achieve the ends we see as good rather than brooding about if we are in a golden age or not (unless we are talking about animation).
Really, how bad are people at tracking big rocks floating in space?
Quote from: Razgovory on August 24, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Really, how bad are people at tracking big rocks floating in space?
Space is a big place.
Quote from: mongers on August 24, 2012, 07:32:51 PM
Hang on, I though you were a bit of a goth in your youth, or is that another languishite ?
I was happy as a fucking clam, man.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 24, 2012, 08:36:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 24, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Really, how bad are people at tracking big rocks floating in space?
Space is a big place.
Space is really really really fucking huge and rocks capable of destroying the world are really really really small and fucking invisible.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 24, 2012, 08:36:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 24, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Really, how bad are people at tracking big rocks floating in space?
Space is a big place.
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space, listen...
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 24, 2012, 06:21:53 PM
I disagree with him. The one consistent trend throughout history has been progress and improvement.
:yes:
Quote from: Viking on August 24, 2012, 11:40:21 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 24, 2012, 08:36:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 24, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Really, how bad are people at tracking big rocks floating in space?
Space is a big place.
Space is really really really fucking huge and rocks capable of destroying the world are really really really small and fucking invisible.
Well I brought this up here once, but Neil was confidant that we would be able to spot meteoroid well before it came close to the Earth.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 24, 2012, 06:21:53 PM
I disagree with him. The one consistent trend throughout history has been progress and improvement.
We had that posed as a essay question at the end of my freshmen year (in the year long course I took that was a mix of Literature/Philosophy/History) and I said that I didn't think it was a history of progress. (As you had to pick one side or the other). I think I'd now I'd say progress but still wouldn't be particularly cheerful about the amount of progress that we've made.
Quote from: garbon on August 25, 2012, 09:08:23 AM
We had that posed as a essay question at the end of my freshmen year (in the year long course I took that was a mix of Literature/Philosophy/History) and I said that I didn't think it was a history of progress. (As you had to pick one side or the other). I think I'd now I'd say progress but still wouldn't be particularly cheerful about the amount of progress that we've made.
You could argue it either way, but I agree that progress is not impressive in many areas, especially in educating people to be more self-aware and empathetic.