Was inspired to do a little research on the mentally ill by the Batman shooting and found this. Totally fucked up. I think a situation like that could eventually drive a sane man crazy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment
The Science article can be found here.
web.archive.org/web/20041117175255/http://web.cocc.edu/lminorevans/on_being_sane_in_insane_places.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20041117175255/http://web.cocc.edu/lminorevans/on_being_sane_in_insane_places.htm)
QuoteThe Rosenhan experiment was a famous experiment into the validity of psychiatric diagnosis conducted by psychologist David Rosenhan in 1973. It was published in the journal Science under the title "On being sane in insane places."[1] The study is considered an important and influential criticism of psychiatric diagnosis.[2]
Rosenhan's study was done in two parts. The first part involved the use of healthy associates or "pseudopatients" (three women and five men) who briefly simulated auditory hallucinations in an attempt to gain admission to 12 different psychiatric hospitals in five different states in various locations in the United States. All were admitted and diagnosed with psychiatric disorders. After admission, the pseudopatients acted normally and told staff that they felt fine and had not experienced any more hallucinations. Hospital staff failed to detect a single pseudopatient, and instead believed that all of the pseudopatients exhibited symptoms of ongoing mental illness. Several were confined for months. All were forced to admit to having a mental illness and agree to take antipsychotic drugs as a condition of their release. The second part involved an offended hospital challenging Rosenhan to send pseudopatients to its facility, whom its staff would then detect. Rosenhan agreed and in the following weeks out of 193 new patients the staff identified 41 as potential pseudopatients, with 19 of these receiving suspicion from at least 1 psychiatrist and 1 other staff member. In fact Rosenhan had sent no-one to the hospital.
The study concluded, "It is clear that we cannot distinguish the sane from the insane in psychiatric hospitals" and also illustrated the dangers of dehumanization and labeling in psychiatric institutions. It suggested that the use of community mental health facilities which concentrated on specific problems and behaviors rather than psychiatric labels might be a solution and recommended education to make psychiatric workers more aware of the social psychology of their facilities.
What you didn't know this? If they were actually good at detecting mental illness, half the staff would be locked away.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 21, 2012, 07:36:07 PM
The second part involved an offended hospital challenging Rosenhan to send pseudopatients to its facility, whom its staff would then detect. Rosenhan agreed and in the following weeks out of 193 new patients the staff identified 41 as potential pseudopatients, with 19 of these receiving suspicion from at least 1 psychiatrist and 1 other staff member. In fact Rosenhan had sent no-one to the hospital.
:lol: Ossum.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 21, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
What you didn't know this? If they were actually good at detecting mental illness, half the staff would be locked away.
Tim is an odd bird.
This is not news. Nor is it surprising. Nor do I care.
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2012, 09:44:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 21, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
What you didn't know this? If they were actually good at detecting mental illness, half the staff would be locked away.
Tim is an odd bird.
Not being crazy, and not knowing any personally that's crazy, why should I know much about the mental health care system?
Don't you claim to know something about history?
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2012, 10:58:18 PM
Don't you claim to know something about history?
Yes, and that would include specific knowledge of modern health institutions, why? Politics, war, art and culture is what I read I'm interested in history, not procedural regulations of asylums or law enforcement agencies beyond Supreme Court cases that have addressed those issues, or cultural reform movements like those of the early 19th century that have addressed those issues.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 21, 2012, 11:20:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2012, 10:58:18 PM
Don't you claim to know something about history?
Yes, and that would include specific knowledge of modern health institutions, why? Politics, war, art and culture is what I read I'm interested in history, not procedural regulations of asylums or law enforcement agencies beyond Supreme Court cases that have addressed those issues, or cultural reform movements like those of the early 19th century that have addressed those issues.
Uhm, because you need good general knowledge in order to provide context to historical knowledge? Otherwise, it's just trivia.
So one guy knew better than the entire medical staffs of major institutions? He could diagnose people 100%? He was wrong, got called on it and blamed the system. We should invite him to Languish. :rolleyes:
Tim, don't take their shit. I had read about this before, but had largely forgotten about it. Good on you for reminding me. You do God's work, my friend.
Quote from: dps on July 22, 2012, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 21, 2012, 11:20:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2012, 10:58:18 PM
Don't you claim to know something about history?
Yes, and that would include specific knowledge of modern health institutions, why? Politics, war, art and culture is what I read I'm interested in history, not procedural regulations of asylums or law enforcement agencies beyond Supreme Court cases that have addressed those issues, or cultural reform movements like those of the early 19th century that have addressed those issues.
Uhm, because you need good general knowledge in order to provide context to historical knowledge? Otherwise, it's just trivia.
Politics, war, art and culture is general knowledge. The details of diagnoses in mental hospitals circa 1970 is extremely specific.
I have not heard about it before but this is 40 years old. It's not like the state of mental care was that great back then. Homosexuality was considered a mental disease and certain groups of people were being forcibly sterilized.
It would be interesting to see the results of a similar study done today but as it is, it is non-news.
Quote from: The Brain on July 22, 2012, 01:37:01 AM
So one guy knew better than the entire medical staffs of major institutions? He could diagnose people 100%? He was wrong, got called on it and blamed the system. We should invite him to Languish. :rolleyes:
Good point. Especially if you consider that most psychiatrists are insane.
Quote from: Martinus on July 22, 2012, 03:56:50 AM
Good point. Especially if you consider that most psychiatrists are insane.
I tend to sleep on either one side or facing the bed. But after the operation I couldn't move, so I had to sleep on my back.
It hurt a lot, in part due to my own back problems and in addition I guess due to the sorry state of my core muscles after being cut and pulled during surgery.
The result was that I wasn't able to sleep more than 2 hours a night, and only after I had some chemical help.
I complained each day, but other than trying different sleeping pills, the docs did nothing to help, apparently thinking I was a pill junkie or something. Finally they called psych.
A few more days passed. A week had gone by, having slept just a dozen hours in that time. By then I could shift to either side, relieving pain somewhat. That morning I also got lucky, and my roommate was down in surgery, so I had the place to myself.
For the first time in a week, I managed to get asleep, some time after breakfast.
And that's when three shrinks show up. The two students sit back and the other guy fucking wakes me up and says: "Hello, we're from psychiatry, and we're here to help you sleep."
I was incapacitated, else I would've defenestrated the bastards.
:D
Quote from: Martinus on July 22, 2012, 03:55:08 AM
I have not heard about it before but this is 40 years old. It's not like the state of mental care was that great back then. Homosexuality was considered a mental disease and certain groups of people were being forcibly sterilized.
You shouldn't make it sound so appealing.
Homosexuality is a mental illness.
It still fits the criteria. They just gave it a pass.
Quote from: Neil on July 22, 2012, 11:51:12 AM
Homosexuality is a mental illness.
:yes:
Those fags expect me to boycott the most delicious chicken sandwich ever invented. They can go jump in a lake.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 22, 2012, 12:23:51 PM
Those fags expect me to boycott the most delicious chicken sandwich ever invented. They can go jump in a lake.
I think it's hilarious that a company that prides itself on its Southern Baptist roots and family-centeredness by giving their employees Sundays off actually surprised some people by its anti-faggitry stance.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2012, 12:25:26 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 22, 2012, 12:23:51 PM
Those fags expect me to boycott the most delicious chicken sandwich ever invented. They can go jump in a lake.
I think it's hilarious that a company that prides itself on its Southern Baptist roots and family-centeredness by giving their employees Sundays off actually surprised some people by its anti-faggitry stance.
Every bite is a dagger aimed at Mart's heart. FROM HELL'S HEART I SPIT AT THEE. *Munch* *munch*
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2012, 12:25:26 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 22, 2012, 12:23:51 PM
Those fags expect me to boycott the most delicious chicken sandwich ever invented. They can go jump in a lake.
I think it's hilarious that a company that prides itself on its Southern Baptist roots and family-centeredness by giving their employees Sundays off actually surprised some people by its anti-faggitry stance.
Yeah, no shit. If they're devoted enough to their religion to make silly decisions like closing on Sunday, chances are they're not Valmy-esque pseudo-Chrisitans.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 22, 2012, 12:25:26 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 22, 2012, 12:23:51 PM
Those fags expect me to boycott the most delicious chicken sandwich ever invented. They can go jump in a lake.
I think it's hilarious that a company that prides itself on its Southern Baptist roots and family-centeredness by giving their employees Sundays off actually surprised some people by its anti-faggitry stance.
Maybe they just thought they were German?
And the backlash begins:
QuoteChick-Fil-A Recalling Jim Henson Kids' Meal Toys As Partnership Severed Over Anti-Gay Donations
Last week, the Jim Henson Company announced it would no longer partner with Chick-fil-A in the wake of the fast food company's acknowledged support of anti-gay organizations. Now, however, Chick-fil-A officials are reportedly telling franchise customers that the kids' meal toys which were produced as part of the now-severed collaboration have been recalled due to safety issues.
A photograph of a sign reportedly displayed at a Chick-fil-A restaurant at the Shops at Willow Bend in Plano, Texas has gone viral on Twitter and the blogosphere. The sign reads as follows:
"We apologize for any inconvenience but as of 7/19/2012 Chick-fil-A has voluntarily recalled all of the Jim Henson's Creature Shop Puppet Kids Meal Toys due to a possible safety issue. Please be advised that there have not been any cases in which a child has actually been injured, however there have been some reports of children getting their fingers stuck in the holes of the puppets."
The popular LGBT blog Joe. My. God. also points to a second, Virginia-based Chick-fil-A franchise that posted the following message on Facebook in regard to the toy recall:
"Chick-fil-A is initiating a voluntary withdrawal for our Jim Henson Creature Shop Puppet Kid's Meal Premiums due to a product issue (even though all puppets passed safety testing requirements).
In lieu of the kid's meal premium we will offer a Kid's Icedream."
Chick-Fil-A spokeswoman Tiffany Greenway told HuffPost Gay Voices that the company had decided to recall the Muppets toys nationwide, as of July 19, "for the protection of our customers." She said it was a decision completely separate from the Jim Henson Company's Facebook announcement.
Franchises, however, were not directed to put up notices of the development. The Willow Bend location chose to do so to communicate what happened.
"But just because it would cause confusion, he has since taken it down," she said.
Greenway declined to elaborate on what the safety concerns were with the toys.
A representative for the Jim Henson Company told HuffPost Gay Voices they had no further statement beyond what had initially been posted on their Facebook page last week, and that those inquiring about what happened with the toys should contact Chick-Fil-A as they "are at the front of what is currently happening."
Furor over Chick-Fil-A President Dan Cathy's remarks made in a July 16 Baptist Press interview continues to rage. When writer K. Allan Blume pressed Cathy, who is the son of founder S. Truett Cathy, about his company's contributions to known anti-gay organizations like Exodus International and the Family Research Council, he responded, "Well, guilty as charged."
Meanwhile, Good as You blogger Jeremy Hooper has unearthed additional video footage of Cathy expressing anti-gay marriage sentiments. "It's very clear in Romans chapter 1, if we look at society today, we see all the twisted up kind of stuff that's going on," Cathy states in the clip. "Washington trying to redefine the definition of marriage and all the other kinds of things that we go -- if you go upstream from that, in Romans chapter 1, you will see that because we have not acknowledged God and because we have not thanked God, that we have been left victim to the foolishness of our own thoughts."
The Jim Henson representative also noted that the company no longer has any affiliation with "The Muppets," as they were acquired by The Walt Disney Company in 2004, but does maintain ownership of the "Fraggle Rock" franchise. The "Sesame Street" characters are owned by Sesame Workshop.
Query: I never liked their sandwiches. Is not eating their sandwiches now considered agreeing with the boycott?
Because I love their waffle fries, and so I may eat there again. And I'd like to be covered on each approach, as the unofficial attorney of gay Hattiesburg.
Quote from: Scipio on July 24, 2012, 08:10:27 PM
Query: I never liked their sandwiches. Is not eating their sandwiches now considered agreeing with the boycott?
Because I love their waffle fries, and so I may eat there again. And I'd like to be covered on each approach, as the unofficial attorney of gay Hattiesburg.
They have badass breakfast burritos.
And their shakes rock. They recently had a limited-time-only Banana Creme Pie shake, with real bananas and chunks of pie crust. It was so goddamned good, I went into a hypertensive crisis.
Terrible restaurant, never eat there, but if I liked them I wouldn't care if they wasted shareholder money on theological-political nonsense; I eat at establishments that kill millions of animals a day. If I boycotted every business that did something I didn't like, I would starve; but that'd be just as well, since I wouldn't have a job anyway.
Link (http://www.theonion.com/articles/chickfila-debuts-new-homophobic-sandwich,28888/)
QuoteChick-Fil-A Debuts New Homophobic Sandwich
'Queer-Hatin' Cordon Bleu' Goes On Sale Wednesday
ATLANTA—As part of its recent efforts to publicly align itself with fundamentalist Christian values, the Chick-fil-A restaurant chain announced today the debut of its new Queer-Hatin' Cordon Bleu sandwich that would be on sale in all of the company's 1,600 restaurants this Wednesday.
In a press conference to reporters, company representatives said the homophobic new sandwich will include the national fast food chain's trademark fried chicken filet wrapped in a piece of specially-smoked No Homo ham that would be topped with a slice of Swiss cheese and lathered in a creamy new Thousand Island-based Fag Punching sauce.
"The Queer-Hatin' Cordon Bleu is our company's way of showing our firm commitment to strong, Christian family values," said Chick-fil-A spokesman Robert Gary, before adding that the vehemently anti-gay rights sandwich comes served in a combo with waffle fries and a medium soda for just $6.95. "From the very first morsel of this savory meal to the very last bite, customers can envision gays burning in hell with their sodomizing cohorts, and know that our sandwich is on their side."
"Of course, the young ones will want to finish their meals off right with a No Fudge Packin' Soft Serve Cone," Gary added. "I can't think of a better way to follow up a sandwich this good."
While the release of the Queer-Hatin' Cordon Bleu has led to anger from pro-gay rights groups, loyal Chick-fil-A customers claim they are happy they can finally enjoy a sandwich that takes a firm stance on the issue of homosexuality.
"Any sandwich that combines that great Chick-fil-A flavor with a hefty dose of vitriolic homophobia is definitely going to keep me coming back for more," said Atlanta customer John Oaks. "Come Wednesday, I'm going to be first in line for this thing."
According to sources, the Queer-Hatin' Cordon Bleu is merely the first of Chick-fil-A's new family values menu which is set to include the AIDS Is God's Curse chicken nugget combo and the Fags Caused 9/11 strawberry fruit smoothie.
How did this become the Chick-Fil-A thread? :huh:
We made it that way. Now go back to your bowl of kimchi.
Korean food is garbage food.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 24, 2012, 09:18:31 PM
Korean food is garbage food.
Someone sent me link saying Kimchi was "human waste food" :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 24, 2012, 09:14:25 PM
We made it that way. Now go back to your bowl of kimchi.
Kimchi is disgusting! :yuk:
Korean barbecue, now that's some good shit.
Quote from: Scipio on July 24, 2012, 09:38:20 PM
Korean barbecue, now that's some good shit.
Hell Yeah! :yeah:
Quote from: dps on July 22, 2012, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 21, 2012, 11:20:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 21, 2012, 10:58:18 PM
Don't you claim to know something about history?
Yes, and that would include specific knowledge of modern health institutions, why? Politics, war, art and culture is what I read I'm interested in history, not procedural regulations of asylums or law enforcement agencies beyond Supreme Court cases that have addressed those issues, or cultural reform movements like those of the early 19th century that have addressed those issues.
Uhm, because you need good general knowledge in order to provide context to historical knowledge? Otherwise, it's just trivia.
:yes:
/I like how Tim suggests that things he doesn't care about is just trivia.
We at the Timmay is a Poophead Front (TPF) claim full credit for the delicious Chick-Fil-A hijack.
Was this study done in a Soviet mental hospital?
QuoteIn 2008, the BBC's Horizon science program performed a somewhat related experiment over two episodes entitled "How Mad Are You?". The experiment involved ten subjects, five living with previously-diagnosed mental health conditions, and five with no such diagnosis. They were observed by three experts in mental health diagnoses and their challenge was to identify the five with mental health problems.[11] The experts correctly diagnosed two of the ten patients, misdiagnosed one patient, and incorrectly identified two healthy patients as having mental health problems.[12]
:XD: Sounds like things aren't getting that much better with time.
Quote from: Scipio on July 24, 2012, 08:10:27 PM
Query: I never liked their sandwiches. Is not eating their sandwiches now considered agreeing with the boycott?
Because I love their waffle fries, and so I may eat there again. And I'd like to be covered on each approach, as the unofficial attorney of gay Hattiesburg.
I haven't been able to eat there since I went to the mall one morning and saw cockroaches crawling all over their table.
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 07:53:57 AM
QuoteIn 2008, the BBC's Horizon science program performed a somewhat related experiment over two episodes entitled "How Mad Are You?". The experiment involved ten subjects, five living with previously-diagnosed mental health conditions, and five with no such diagnosis. They were observed by three experts in mental health diagnoses and their challenge was to identify the five with mental health problems.[11] The experts correctly diagnosed two of the ten patients, misdiagnosed one patient, and incorrectly identified two healthy patients as having mental health problems.[12]
:XD: Sounds like things aren't getting that much better with time.
That means the experts are no better than camels randomly picking a result.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 25, 2012, 08:59:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 07:53:57 AM
QuoteIn 2008, the BBC's Horizon science program performed a somewhat related experiment over two episodes entitled "How Mad Are You?". The experiment involved ten subjects, five living with previously-diagnosed mental health conditions, and five with no such diagnosis. They were observed by three experts in mental health diagnoses and their challenge was to identify the five with mental health problems.[11] The experts correctly diagnosed two of the ten patients, misdiagnosed one patient, and incorrectly identified two healthy patients as having mental health problems.[12]
:XD: Sounds like things aren't getting that much better with time.
That means the experts are no better than camels randomly picking a result.
Did you just pick a random animal, or is this a Chinese saying? :hmm:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
Did you just pick a random animal, or is this a Chinese saying? :hmm:
I remember there was an experiment where camels competed with experts on picking stocks. The camels won.
This isn't funny if you really think about it, though. Psychiatry isn't just some harmless curiosity like astrology. Many lives are affected by it, often by force or at least heavy-handed compulsion. This is a pseudoscience that can destroy lives. For all we know, many of the children diagnosed with ADD and are force-fed amphetamines are only suffering from being young (at least until they are "treated").
Quote from: Monoriu on July 25, 2012, 09:04:54 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 25, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
Did you just pick a random animal, or is this a Chinese saying? :hmm:
I remember there was an experiment where camels competed with experts on picking stocks. The camels won.
Did anyone hire those camels after this experiment?
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
This isn't funny if you really think about it, though. Psychiatry isn't just some harmless curiosity like astrology. Many lives are affected by it, often by force or at least heavy-handed compulsion. This is a pseudoscience that can destroy lives. For all we know, many of the children diagnosed with ADD and are force-fed amphetamines are only suffering from being young (at least until they are "treated").
Is this new to you?
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 10:21:34 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
This isn't funny if you really think about it, though. Psychiatry isn't just some harmless curiosity like astrology. Many lives are affected by it, often by force or at least heavy-handed compulsion. This is a pseudoscience that can destroy lives. For all we know, many of the children diagnosed with ADD and are force-fed amphetamines are only suffering from being young (at least until they are "treated").
Is this new to you?
Seriously.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 10:21:34 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
This isn't funny if you really think about it, though. Psychiatry isn't just some harmless curiosity like astrology. Many lives are affected by it, often by force or at least heavy-handed compulsion. This is a pseudoscience that can destroy lives. For all we know, many of the children diagnosed with ADD and are force-fed amphetamines are only suffering from being young (at least until they are "treated").
Is this new to you?
The idea that psychiatry is more quackery than science isn't new to me, but I've never read about this experiment until today. Now that I did, my feelings of disgust crystallized.
There is real science and medicine in there, but the big problem is that correctly diagnosing a patient in psychiatry is difficult and time consuming. So they just make a half-hearted stab at it.
I dunno, couldn't they pretty much just say "We are pretty good at diagnosing actual psychiatric issues, but not so good at telling when someone is actively and maliciously trying to deceive us".
I mean, I bet I could get doctors to prescribe medications for actual physical problems that I made up completely if I went to a hospital emergency room and just lied my ass off about there being something wrong with me - especially if I was trained to know what to say and when in order to complete the deception.
Psychiatry used communicaton with the patient as the primary means of gathering information. Of course that makes is incredibly susceptible to being manipulated.
Quote from: Berkut on July 25, 2012, 04:23:56 PM
I dunno, couldn't they pretty much just say "We are pretty good at diagnosing actual psychiatric issues, but not so good at telling when someone is actively and maliciously trying to deceive us".
I mean, I bet I could get doctors to prescribe medications for actual physical problems that I made up completely if I went to a hospital emergency room and just lied my ass off about there being something wrong with me - especially if I was trained to know what to say and when in order to complete the deception.
Psychiatry used communicaton with the patient as the primary means of gathering information. Of course that makes is incredibly susceptible to being manipulated.
According to Wiki, that was indeed an objection that was raised. It was addressed by pointing out that once people got in, they stopped acting, and yet they couldn't convince the doctors of their sanity.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 25, 2012, 10:30:25 AM
There is real science and medicine in there, but the big problem is that correctly diagnosing a patient in psychiatry is difficult and time consuming. So they just make a half-hearted stab at it.
:yes:
I'd say finding a good psych is harder than a good GP...which makes it dreadful if you are committed to state care.