This does not seem to be a wise campaign strategy. :hmm:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/ilias-kasidiaris-assaults-female-mps-live-tv_n_1577251.html
QuoteIlias Kasidiaris, Greek Golden Dawn Politician, Assaults Two Female MPs On Live TV (VIDEO)
By ELENA BECATOROS 06/07/12 02:30 PM ET AP
ATHENS, Greece — Greece's election campaign turned ugly Thursday on live TV: The spokesman of the extreme-right Golden Dawn party, after trading insults of "commie" and "fascist," lunged at two female left-wing politicians on a mainstream morning talk show, throwing water at one and smacking the other three times across the face.
The violent display reminiscent of trash TV, a week and a half ahead of crucial elections, stunned Greeks as they seek to avoid a catastrophic exit from Europe's common euro currency. A prosecutor issued an arrest warrant for Ilias Kasidiaris, whose party alarmed Europe by gaining 21 of Parliament's 300 seats in Greece's inconclusive May 6 elections.
Golden Dawn, which vehemently denies the neo-Nazi label, has been accused of violent attacks against immigrants in Athens. The party denies involvement in the attacks, insisting it is a nationalist patriotic group. It campaigned on a platform of ridding the country of illegal immigrants and cleaning up crime-ridden neighborhoods, and advocates planting anti-personnel mines along Greece's borders to stop migrants from sneaking across.
The attack "put on public display what was widely known," said the radical left-wing Syriza party, whose member Rena Dourou was splashed with water on the show. "The true face of this criminal organization."
Tempers frayed on the daily morning political show on the private Antenna television station during a political debate, to which representatives of all seven parties that won parliamentary seats on May 6 had been invited.
Discussion had turned to the country's natural resources. But it went off on a tangent about political history in Greece, which suffered a vicious civil war between Communists and the right-wing after World War II, and a seven-year military dictatorship that ended in 1974.
Kasidiaris, his temper wearing thin, shot an insult of "you old Commie" at 58-year-old prominent Communist Party member Liana Kanelli, in return for her branding him a "fascist." Kasidiaris, 31, who served in the military's special forces, also took offense at a reference by Dourou to a court case pending against him.
It all careened into violence when Dourou said there was a "crisis of democracy when people who will take the country back 500 years have got into the Greek parliament." Kasidiaris bounded out of his seat and hurled a glass of water at her, shouting an insult loosely translated as "you circus act."
Talk show host Giorgos Papadakis – shouting `'no, no, no!" – ran over to Kasidiaris, attempting to calm him down. But the Golden Dawn member turned on Kanelli, who had stood up and appeared to throw a newspaper at him.
Kasidiaris hit Kanelli three times – with hard right-left-right slaps to the sides of her head.
Papadakis tried and failed to restrain him.
The channel cut to a commercial break, and returned five minutes later without Kasidiaris.
The court case Dourou referred to was one in which Kasidiaris is accused of participation in a 2007 attack on a student. He faces charges of assisting in robbery and bodily harm after his car was allegedly used in the incident in which a student had his identity card stolen. Kasidiaris claims the accusation is politically motivated by Syriza members. The case was to be heard in court on Wednesday but has been postponed to June 11.
Papadakis and Kanelli later said attempts had been made to restrain Kasidiaris after the scuffle by shutting him in a room in the TV channel's building, but he broke through the door and left. Police were searching for him to serve the arrest warrant, which under Greek law must be carried out within 48 hours. If he is not arrested within the time limit, the case is dealt with under ordinary court procedures, with a court case being scheduled.
"The government condemns in the most categorical way the attack by Golden Dawn spokesman Ilias Kasidiaris against Liana Kanelli and Rena Dourou," government spokesman Dimitris Tsiodras said. "This attack is an attack against every democratic citizen."
Tsiodras called on Golden Dawn to condemn its member's actions.
For its part, Golden Dawn said it was Kanelli who first attacked Kasidiaris, "hitting him unprovoked in the face with a packet of documents."
"Golden Dawn continues its fight for a strong nationalist movement against everyone, and naturally against the orphans of Marx, who dominate on the (broadcast) channels and are playing a dirty propaganda game," the party said in a statement.
"If you want us to condemn our co-fighter for a truly unfortunate moment, you should first condemn the insults and the attack by Liana Kanelli, otherwise you are nothing but sad hypocrites following orders."
The party, which blasted journalists for a mud campaign against it in cohort with the other political parties, said it would boycott the media.
"We announce to the Greek people that before the media shut us out, we are shutting them out. We don't need them. We have half a million Greeks on our side," it said in a statement posted on its website.
Golden Dawn won nearly 7 percent of the vote on May 6, giving it 21 seats in the 300-member Parliament. It was a radical increase from its showing in the previous elections in 2009, when the party won just 0.31 percent of the vote.
Greeks reeling from two years of austerity amid their country's vicious financial crisis punished the two main parties, the conservative New Democracy and socialist PASOK, turning instead to smaller radical parties to the right and left.
The 300 deputies took up their seats for a day last month before parliament was dissolved and new elections called as no party won enough votes to form a government. Coalition talks collapsed after 10 days.
"The people voted for them because they didn't know what Golden Dawn was. They didn't know they're a new form of neo-Nazis," said Athenian Maria Misaridaki walking through the capital's central Syntagma Square. "They saw the violence. It should open their eyes so as not to vote for them."
Man, what an ass-- wait, she's a communist? Never mind.
Quote from: derspiess on June 08, 2012, 10:24:08 PM
Man, what an ass-- wait, she's a communist? Never mind.
Brief glimpse at 1:19 in the clip. Kind of large for my taste.
Who the fuck says "Neo-Nazi" these days? The originals are getting really old and few in number so the distinction seems to be unnecessary; I don't think many of them are fit enough to assault people.
Wait, Golden Dawn did this? :o
Their lifestyle to me seems so tragic. :(
I'd be pissed too if I had to sit around and listen to people jabber away in Greek.
Is their name a Homer reference? I remember there were lots and lots of 'rosy-fingered dawns' in Homer.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2012, 06:41:28 AM
Is their name a Homer reference? I remember there were lots and lots of 'rosy-fingered dawns' in Homer.
Marge must be a lucky woman!
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 08, 2012, 08:23:15 PM
This does not seem to be a wise campaign strategy. :hmm:
Maybe they can work out a spin for this...We've reformed...before we killed jews and murdered our way through europe, but now we just slap women.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 09, 2012, 09:22:01 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 08, 2012, 08:23:15 PM
This does not seem to be a wise campaign strategy. :hmm:
Maybe they can work out a spin for this...We've reformed...before we killed jews and murdered our way through europe, but now we just slap women.
"Put women in their place."
I dunno, I figure if your the type to vote for people so blatantly thuggish as Golden Dawn, you'd applaud beating on communists.
Beating up communists is one of the best things about fascist thugs, and being a woman certainly didn't help Emma Goldman.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2012, 06:41:28 AM
Is their name a Homer reference? I remember there were lots and lots of 'rosy-fingered dawns' in Homer.
I was thinking nazi-flavored occultists.
She needed to get back in the kitchen.
Q: How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, feminists can't change anything.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 09, 2012, 06:41:28 AM
Is their name a Homer reference? I remember there were lots and lots of 'rosy-fingered dawns' in Homer.
Weren't they responsible for the assassination of Uriel Septim VII and his two sons?
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 09, 2012, 12:39:44 PM
She needed to get back in the kitchen.
Q: How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, feminists can't change anything.
:(
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 09, 2012, 09:37:11 AM
I dunno, I figure if your the type to vote for people so blatantly thuggish as Golden Dawn, you'd applaud beating on communists.
Beating up communists is one of the best things about fascist thugs, and being a woman certainly didn't help Emma Goldman.
Or Rosa Luxemburg, whose fate would seem more relevant in this case.
You are absolutely right. :Embarrass: I mixed up my godless jewish communist women.
Quote from: The Brain on June 08, 2012, 11:41:45 PM
Wait, Golden Dawn did this? :o
Their lifestyle to me seems so tragic. :(
They fooled all the people with magic.
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 09, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
You are absolutely right. :Embarrass: I mixed up my godless jewish communist women.
Luxemburg was a great woman. You're just a piece of shit closet case with more psychological problems than any three serial killers.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 09, 2012, 12:39:44 PM
She needed to get back in the kitchen.
Q: How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, feminists can't change anything.
I've heard that joke before with PETA as the subject.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 10, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 09, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
You are absolutely right. :Embarrass: I mixed up my godless jewish communist women.
Luxemburg was a great woman. You're just a piece of shit closet case with more psychological problems than any three serial killers.
Something touched a nerve. Was it the godless or the Jewish that did it?
Quote from: Queequeg on June 10, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 09, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
You are absolutely right. :Embarrass: I mixed up my godless jewish communist women.
Luxemburg was a great woman. You're just a piece of shit closet case with more psychological problems than any three serial killers.
She was kind of a bad person. You're overreacting.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 10, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 09, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
You are absolutely right. :Embarrass: I mixed up my godless jewish communist women.
Luxemburg was a great woman. You're just a piece of shit closet case with more psychological problems than any three serial killers.
Eh, no. Lettuce is right. She had no redeeming qualities and got what she deserved.
Commie or not, she did strike him first with the paper. Ain't nobody above an asswhupping, should already know that before hitting fascists.
hopefully this will lose them some votes so some progress can be made in Greece
Quote from: Tyr on June 11, 2012, 07:08:12 AM
hopefully this will lose them some votes so some progress can be made in Greece
What's the basis for Greek democracy?
Slaves rowing boats around the Mediterranean.
Quote from: derspiess on June 10, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on June 10, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on June 09, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
You are absolutely right. :Embarrass: I mixed up my godless jewish communist women.
Luxemburg was a great woman. You're just a piece of shit closet case with more psychological problems than any three serial killers.
Eh, no. Lettuce is right. She had no redeeming qualities and got what she deserved.
Rosa was a Communist, but she had lots of admirable qualities for all that - at least, that's my sense. She was, for example, against Germany's participation in WW1, and accurately predicted that the Russian Revolution would descend into tyranny.
Here are two Rosa quotes:
QuoteLuxemburg's best-known quotation is: Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently (Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden), this is from a fuller quotation:
Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter. Not because of the fanaticism of "justice", but rather because all that is instructive, wholesome, and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effects cease to work when "freedom" becomes a privilege.[21]
"Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element"
Can't say as I disagree with her on that.
Quote from: Malthus on June 13, 2012, 12:36:10 PMCan't say as I disagree with her on that.
Well, obviously derSpiess can't agree with that. Freedom for people who think differently than him? Preposterous.
Did she write those excellent words about elections while she was leading the coup, or before?
I watched that video, and I wanted to hit them both, even though I didn't know what they were saying. Public discourse has deteriorated.
Marx, Lenin, Stalin, & Mao also had some cool, interesting quotes. Doesn't mean I have to like them, either.
We can thank people like Rosa for giving the Freikorps a reason to exist.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2012, 09:07:35 PM
Did she write those excellent words about elections while she was leading the coup, or before?
She was leading an attempted revolution during a chaotic period. There hadn't been elections and it wasn't a coup.
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 13, 2012, 10:13:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2012, 09:07:35 PM
Did she write those excellent words about elections while she was leading the coup, or before?
She was leading an attempted revolution during a chaotic period. There hadn't been elections and it wasn't a coup.
It was a revolution against the ruling SPD. :huh:
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 13, 2012, 10:13:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2012, 09:07:35 PM
Did she write those excellent words about elections while she was leading the coup, or before?
She was leading an attempted revolution during a chaotic period. There hadn't been elections and it wasn't a coup.
Because it failed.
Quote from: derspiess on June 13, 2012, 09:56:52 PM
Marx, Lenin, Stalin, & Mao also had some cool, interesting quotes. Doesn't mean I have to like them, either.
We can thank people like Rosa for giving the Freikorps a reason to exist.
:huh:
Seems a bit ass-backwards in thinking, frankly, to blame the existence of the Freikorps on "people like Rosa".
Nor is it obvious that all communists are essentially fungible.
Neither her writings nor her actions, as far as I know, indicate that she was a ruthless dictator in the making. Quite the contrary.
She would have gotten her period, then BAM! 100,000 dead.
Quote from: Malthus on June 13, 2012, 12:36:10 PM
Rosa was a Communist, but she had lots of admirable qualities for all that - at least, that's my sense. She was, for example, against Germany's participation in WW1, and accurately predicted that the Russian Revolution would descend into tyranny.
Here are two Rosa quotes:
QuoteLuxemburg's best-known quotation is: Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently (Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden), this is from a fuller quotation:
Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter. Not because of the fanaticism of "justice", but rather because all that is instructive, wholesome, and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effects cease to work when "freedom" becomes a privilege.[21]
"Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element"
Can't say as I disagree with her on that.
With the hindsight of history we know that those beliefs are antithetical to a functional communist society though. How did she think her utopia would be attainable with out the bloodshed and tyranny of the Russian revolution?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2012, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 13, 2012, 12:36:10 PM
Rosa was a Communist, but she had lots of admirable qualities for all that - at least, that's my sense. She was, for example, against Germany's participation in WW1, and accurately predicted that the Russian Revolution would descend into tyranny.
Here are two Rosa quotes:
QuoteLuxemburg's best-known quotation is: Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently (Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden), this is from a fuller quotation:
Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter. Not because of the fanaticism of "justice", but rather because all that is instructive, wholesome, and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effects cease to work when "freedom" becomes a privilege.[21]
"Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element"
Can't say as I disagree with her on that.
With the hindsight of history we know that those beliefs are antithetical to a functional communist society though. How did she think her utopia would be attainable with out the bloodshed and tyranny of the Russian revolution?
Well, perhaps if she knew in 1919 what we know now, she'd have described herself as a "socialist" and not as a "communist". Some who flirted with Communism later rejected it on the basis of the fact that those exemplifying it were basically evil dictators - think of Orwell. That was hardly obvious in 1919.
These terms have different meanings now then they did then. The split in the ranks of the German socialists at the end of WW1 had everything to do with contemporary events - the chaos and collapse of Germany, the varying degrees of opposition to the war, etc. - and less to do with ideological differences concerning Marxist utopianism. Remember that those who ended up in charge of Germany also described themselves as "socialists" and were, only a couple of years before, in the same party as Rosa.
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2012, 09:40:25 AM
Well, perhaps if she knew in 1919 what we know now, she'd have described herself as a "socialist" and not as a "communist". Some who flirted with Communism later rejected it on the basis of the fact that those exemplifying it were basically evil dictators - think of Orwell. That was hardly obvious in 1919.
Anyone with a common sense understanding of human nature would realize you'd have to spill oceans of blood to institute such a radical redistribution of wealth and privilege and to construct a power structure to safeguard and perpetuate it.
Perhaps, having just lived through a war between non-communist countries which claimed more than 8.5m dead, she wasn't as squeamish about these matters as you are.
I seem to recall that she opposed the January revolution in any event or at least its violence.
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2012, 09:40:25 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2012, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 13, 2012, 12:36:10 PM
Rosa was a Communist, but she had lots of admirable qualities for all that - at least, that's my sense. She was, for example, against Germany's participation in WW1, and accurately predicted that the Russian Revolution would descend into tyranny.
Here are two Rosa quotes:
QuoteLuxemburg's best-known quotation is: Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently (Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden), this is from a fuller quotation:
Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter. Not because of the fanaticism of "justice", but rather because all that is instructive, wholesome, and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effects cease to work when "freedom" becomes a privilege.[21]
"Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element"
Can't say as I disagree with her on that.
With the hindsight of history we know that those beliefs are antithetical to a functional communist society though. How did she think her utopia would be attainable with out the bloodshed and tyranny of the Russian revolution?
Well, perhaps if she knew in 1919 what we know now, she'd have described herself as a "socialist" and not as a "communist". Some who flirted with Communism later rejected it on the basis of the fact that those exemplifying it were basically evil dictators - think of Orwell. That was hardly obvious in 1919.
These terms have different meanings now then they did then. The split in the ranks of the German socialists at the end of WW1 had everything to do with contemporary events - the chaos and collapse of Germany, the varying degrees of opposition to the war, etc. - and less to do with ideological differences concerning Marxist utopianism. Remember that those who ended up in charge of Germany also described themselves as "socialists" and were, only a couple of years before, in the same party as Rosa.
It was obvious in 1919 that Communism was bad.
Quote from: The Brain on June 14, 2012, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2012, 09:40:25 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2012, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 13, 2012, 12:36:10 PM
Rosa was a Communist, but she had lots of admirable qualities for all that - at least, that's my sense. She was, for example, against Germany's participation in WW1, and accurately predicted that the Russian Revolution would descend into tyranny.
Here are two Rosa quotes:
QuoteLuxemburg's best-known quotation is: Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently (Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden), this is from a fuller quotation:
Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter. Not because of the fanaticism of "justice", but rather because all that is instructive, wholesome, and purifying in political freedom depends on this essential characteristic, and its effects cease to work when "freedom" becomes a privilege.[21]
"Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element"
Can't say as I disagree with her on that.
With the hindsight of history we know that those beliefs are antithetical to a functional communist society though. How did she think her utopia would be attainable with out the bloodshed and tyranny of the Russian revolution?
Well, perhaps if she knew in 1919 what we know now, she'd have described herself as a "socialist" and not as a "communist". Some who flirted with Communism later rejected it on the basis of the fact that those exemplifying it were basically evil dictators - think of Orwell. That was hardly obvious in 1919.
These terms have different meanings now then they did then. The split in the ranks of the German socialists at the end of WW1 had everything to do with contemporary events - the chaos and collapse of Germany, the varying degrees of opposition to the war, etc. - and less to do with ideological differences concerning Marxist utopianism. Remember that those who ended up in charge of Germany also described themselves as "socialists" and were, only a couple of years before, in the same party as Rosa.
It was obvious in 1919 that Communism was bad.
:yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_General_Strike
Luxemburg was a supporter of Kerensky and a critic of the October Revolution. She only rolled the dice on the German Revolution after her allies left her no choice. And an egalitarian state isn't any more antithetical to human nature than the extremes of inequality enforced in the more laissez faire parts of the world -- more equal societies tend to be happier http://people.virginia.edu/~sk8dm/Papers/Oishi-Kesebir-Diener-Inequality%20and%20Happiness-Psych%20Science.pdf (http://people.virginia.edu/~sk8dm/Papers/Oishi-Kesebir-Diener-Inequality%20and%20Happiness-Psych%20Science.pdf).
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2012, 09:45:59 AMAnyone with a common sense understanding of human nature would realize you'd have to spill oceans of blood to institute such a radical redistribution of wealth and privilege and to construct a power structure to safeguard and perpetuate it.
That rules you out.
There is a sweet spot. If a society is too equal, then it is utterly without value.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 14, 2012, 09:45:59 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2012, 09:40:25 AM
Well, perhaps if she knew in 1919 what we know now, she'd have described herself as a "socialist" and not as a "communist". Some who flirted with Communism later rejected it on the basis of the fact that those exemplifying it were basically evil dictators - think of Orwell. That was hardly obvious in 1919.
Anyone with a common sense understanding of human nature would realize you'd have to spill oceans of blood to institute such a radical redistribution of wealth and privilege and to construct a power structure to safeguard and perpetuate it.
Doesn't the same go for such things as radically changing a society from a monarchy to a republic? Or worse, eliminating the wealth and privilege attached to slave-holding as a means of production?
George Washington and Abraham Lincoln = criminals. At least, moreso than Rosa. They did, in fact, spill oceans of blood, while she mostly did the shedding of her own. :D
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2012, 04:39:39 PM
George Washington and Abraham Lincoln = criminals. At least, moreso than Rosa. They did, in fact, spill oceans of blood, while she mostly did the shedding of her own. :D
Washington was a damned criminal, but Lincoln wasn't the one who started the war.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 13, 2012, 09:17:47 PM
I watched that video, and I wanted to hit them both, even though I didn't know what they were saying. Public discourse has deteriorated.
This was a commie / nazi debate in Europe. Throwing paper and slapping is a big improvement from 1941. :P
Quote from: Malthus on June 14, 2012, 07:52:30 AM
Seems a bit ass-backwards in thinking, frankly, to blame the existence of the Freikorps on "people like Rosa".
I'm not quite doing that. I'm saying she & her fellow commie revolutionaries essentially legitimized the Freikorps by giving them a useful purpose (wiping out the communists).
QuoteNor is it obvious that all communists are essentially fungible.
Remember who you're talking to. Communists of that era (and up to the end of the Cold War) were practically fungible in my book.
QuoteNeither her writings nor her actions, as far as I know, indicate that she was a ruthless dictator in the making. Quite the contrary.
I won't dispute that in & of itself. But she laid a of a lot of groundwork for someone else to step in & be a ruthless, murderous dictator had her side won out. And that's just as bad.