So, let's move this here to humor people.
As I see it, there are two problems with the ending:
1) It's full of plot holes, it's not consistent with the game, and requires a literal deus ex machina in the form of space magic waves.
2) I think it contradicts the theme of Mass Effect, particularly if you're an optimist. To claim that a game shouldn't have a happy ending is cheap; it reflects this stupid notion that to prove you're a good story teller, you need a a dark ending. There are games where this works; but in a game like Mass Effect, inspired by Star Wars, which is about how one man with good intentions can change a galaxy, it seems forced. There's no need for Shepard at the end; the Catalyst could have done whatever it wanted without Shepard.
It's like if at the end of Return of the Jedi, as the emperor is shooting force lightning at Luke, he decides to blow up the Death Start and himself because.
I don't want to put on rose-tinted glasses, but I wonder if endings in general are becoming crappier of late for series. Compare Babylon 5 or Deep Space 9's endings to Battlestar Galactica or Lost. I feel like there's this feeling among writers that to get credit endings have to be... disappointing.
The Catalyst makes no sense. There is literally no need for it to exist as a sentient being, especially one that created the Reapers. Conceptually, it is incredibly stupid; a catalyst powerful enough to conceptualize and actualize the Reapers is presumably powerful to destroy unshackled AI by will alone, or by sending the Reapers after the unshackled AI, instead of after organics. If the Catalyst is an organic outgrowth of the Reaper process, that might make sense; spontaneous creation of a machine superintelligence via singularity accreting through the Citadel mechanism is credible, if a bit of a stretch. Even a fairly malignant machine intelligence would tire of being a perpetual abattoir, and want an end to the Reapers.
But it just doesn't make sense as presented. The simplest solution is the most likely; Occam's Razor leads me to believe that the Catalyst is lying, at least in part, and most likely almost entirely. Therefore, Shepard's choice is essentially meaningless at the end; if the Catalyst is telling the truth, then every assumption Shepard's actions are based on is a lie, and so Shepard's moral reasoning is robbed of consequence. If the Catalyst is lying, then the same issue results: a deceiver god cannot require reasoned action from its creation, so the choice is false, because ultimately the Catalyst can prevent Shepard's actions from having consequence. I think the next time I play the ending (after I've maxed War Readiness, instead of raising it to only 55%), I'm just going to leave the game running with Shepard standing there, not having made a choice, and see if anything happens. Only by refusing to act is Shepard morally free.
Quote from: Faeelin on March 14, 2012, 10:56:19 AM
So, let's move this here to humor people.
As I see it, there are two problems with the ending:
1) It's full of plot holes, it's not consistent with the game, and requires a literal deus ex machina in the form of space magic waves.
2) I think it contradicts the theme of Mass Effect, particularly if you're an optimist. To claim that a game shouldn't have a happy ending is cheap; it reflects this stupid notion that to prove you're a good story teller, you need a a dark ending. There are games where this works; but in a game like Mass Effect, inspired by Star Wars, which is about how one man with good intentions can change a galaxy, it seems forced. There's no need for Shepard at the end; the Catalyst could have done whatever it wanted without Shepard.
It's like if at the end of Return of the Jedi, as the emperor is shooting force lightning at Luke, he decides to blow up the Death Start and himself because.
I don't want to put on rose-tinted glasses, but I wonder if endings in general are becoming crappier of late for series. Compare Babylon 5 or Deep Space 9's endings to Battlestar Galactica or Lost. I feel like there's this feeling among writers that to get credit endings have to be... disappointing.
In Babylon 5, Sheridan made his sacrifice, thinkin he'd died. He slammed a Whitestar filled with nukes on Z'ha'adum to destroy the Shadow base. He really thought it was the end. But it merely delayed it for 20 years or so. In the end, he had a much shorter life than the average human (60 instead of over 100).
Did The Empire Strikes Back really end that well? Wich was the best movie, Episode I or IV with a good ending or TESB? Wich was better, Revenge of the Sith or Phantom Menace?
I don't see the Catalyst as an intelligent being in itself. It's merely a representation of an ancient race, those who built the Reapers. It's purpose is to guide the Reapers in their harvest. I see it as merely a sophisticated program existing on the Citadel.
And apparently, there is a possible ending where Sheppard lives and the Earth is saved.
Quote from: Scipio on March 14, 2012, 11:33:34 AM
The Catalyst makes no sense. There is literally no need for it to exist as a sentient being, especially one that created the Reapers. Conceptually, it is incredibly stupid; a catalyst powerful enough to conceptualize and actualize the Reapers is presumably powerful to destroy unshackled AI by will alone, or by sending the Reapers after the unshackled AI, instead of after organics.
It's not a sentient being, it did not create the Reapers.
Remember what are Reapers in the lore of ME2: Machines with an organic brain (sort of). They contain billions of "soul" from the races harvested in the past, as well as those of their creators (according to the Catalyst itself).
The races of the Citadel are mere children compared to the Reapers. When you punish a kid, you tell him you're doing so because you love him, because you want him to learn the consequences of his mistakes. Now, twist it. And make it prehemptive. The Reapers believe that organics left alone will eventually destroy all life in the galaxy. In their mind, they are beating and torturing people for the greater good (doesn't mean it is, but that's what they think).
Quote
If the Catalyst is an organic outgrowth of the Reaper process, that might make sense; spontaneous creation of a machine superintelligence via singularity accreting through the Citadel mechanism is credible, if a bit of a stretch. Even a fairly malignant machine intelligence would tire of being a perpetual abattoir, and want an end to the Reapers.
The Catalyst was most certainly created by the same people who built the Reapers, the same people who built the mass effect relays and the Citadel itself. It is a mere representation of the collective will of an ancient race. It's not a being in itself. It uses the image of a child to communicate with Shepard, because it's probably easier that way. A race using images and pleasant figures to communicate with another species is kinda seen a lot in sci-fi.
Quote
But it just doesn't make sense as presented. The simplest solution is the most likely; Occam's Razor leads me to believe that the Catalyst is lying, at least in part, and most likely almost entirely. Therefore, Shepard's choice is essentially meaningless at the end; if the Catalyst is telling the truth, then every assumption Shepard's actions are based on is a lie, and so Shepard's moral reasoning is robbed of consequence. If the Catalyst is lying, then the same issue results: a deceiver god cannot require reasoned action from its creation, so the choice is false, because ultimately the Catalyst can prevent Shepard's actions from having consequence. I think the next time I play the ending (after I've maxed War Readiness, instead of raising it to only 55%), I'm just going to leave the game running with Shepard standing there, not having made a choice, and see if anything happens. Only by refusing to act is Shepard morally free.
There are 16 different possible endings, depending on your war readyness (see the other thread) and the choices you made in ME2.
If you war readyness is too low, you will destroy the Reapers and the Earth as well, synthesis won't be an option.
http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/
An excellent article.
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I blame Neil for this ending.
Good article, points 5 and 1 are the best ones.
I suspsect that the answer is quite easy: lack of money and/or time to do proper 16 different endings
Point 3 is ridiculous, save for the last part (wich I agree with). A lot of ships were losts, for 1, and secondly, it has been established through the end mission on London that the Reapers are targetting population centers, leaving the rest intact. So, countryside is ok. Smaller cities are ok. It's the big cities and the people living in it who are fucked. Casualties are high, very high.
So the Earth could sustain alien life. Those who can eat human food at least. Quarians could probably eat human foods so long as it is properly prepared and sanitized. When you speak to a drunk Tali, she talks about drinking some triple distilled whiskey with a straw.
I didn't talk to a drunk Tali, i chose the Geth :menace:
Quote from: katmai on March 14, 2012, 03:22:52 PM
I didn't talk to a drunk Tali, i chose the Geth :menace:
I saved them all.
Which is another example of how this is stupid. If you want to argue that you can't save everyone, yadda yadda yadda, then do that through the series. Make it so you have to lose people in ME2; make it so that you can't save the Geth and the Quarians.
Don't decide "I made it edgy by giving you a child at the end who gives you unclear goals and outcomes."
So, basically, they ripped off the ending from the Matrix trilogy? Wut.
I wouldn't know, I gave up on that series after first one.
Oh, that I wish I had done the same...
Quote from: Faeelin on March 14, 2012, 04:00:28 PM
Which is another example of how this is stupid. If you want to argue that you can't save everyone, yadda yadda yadda, then do that through the series. Make it so you have to lose people in ME2; make it so that you can't save the Geth and the Quarians.
you lose an entire squad of Krogan if you save the Rachni Queen.
You lose Thane, also. And Kelly Chambers if you're not careful. And Mordin. And you may also lose Miranda.
In ME1, there was no way to save both Ashley and Kaidan. If you weren't careful, you might have also lost Wrex.
Quote
Don't decide "I made it edgy by giving you a child at the end who gives you unclear goals and outcomes."
Rumor says there's a DLC called "The Truth" coming...
Quote from: katmai on March 14, 2012, 04:06:52 PM
I wouldn't know, I gave up on that series after first one.
then why are you constantly playing ME3?
Quote from: viper37 on March 14, 2012, 06:42:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 14, 2012, 04:06:52 PM
I wouldn't know, I gave up on that series after first one.
then why are you constantly playing ME3?
:huh:
Quote from: katmai on March 15, 2012, 06:13:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 14, 2012, 06:42:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 14, 2012, 04:06:52 PM
I wouldn't know, I gave up on that series after first one.
then why are you constantly playing ME3?
:huh:
:lol: I think he missed your point.
I agree with you, though. I couldn't finish the second one, and had zero desire to try the third.
Kinda like ME and me, in fact.
BTW how come nobody mentioned the Hyperion series? It has much the same ending.
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 06:35:35 AM
BTW how come nobody mentioned the Hyperion series? It has much the same ending.
Because no one ever finished that series? No one knows (or cares) how it ends. :P
Quote from: katmai on March 15, 2012, 06:13:19 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 14, 2012, 06:42:02 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 14, 2012, 04:06:52 PM
I wouldn't know, I gave up on that series after first one.
then why are you constantly playing ME3?
:huh:
I thought you said you gave up on Mass Effect after the first game, but you were talking about the Matrix :) Sorry :)
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:lol:
My latest speculation is that they came up with the 2 (or 3) choice ending is to ease the intake of the endings. What do I mean? When I watched the blue ending, first thing was to go back to the latest possible save and see the red ending.
Now, if the endings were tied to paragon or renegade scores, ie non-selectable, and I would have done an other game from sracth to see the one I haven't, just to see that the mass effect gates get blown up and civilization as I know it destroyed in both cases, now that would have been a letdown.
Despite of course, that it makes sense. Just think through the 3rd game's story - it is in complete lack of hope, and your making decisions between two bad things usually. It makes perfect sense to only let you choose between varying degrees of destruction.
Still of course, the ending sucks and they should have figured out something better, particularly I could have lived without the "level above the Reapers" god-kid.
But when I think about what I really miss - it is a take on how the universe will look after the ending. But, that's pretty much a given except you don't get cutscenes about it. If you let the krogans have babies again, they will multiply and in the newfound isolation rebuild their once thriving civilization, etc.
So to summarize, I still wish they have done it better but I am not as bitter as I was initially, and I certainly can't sympathize with this huge nerdrage on the Internet.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 15, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
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So, ME2: average game with great ending. ME3: excellent game with weak ending. I don't know what to choose... :D
ME2 was at least as good as 3. Probably better. The "cinematic" quality of ME3 will severely limit replay value.
I'm pretty goddamned pissed. #2 on that article really hit me. I'm pretty pissed.
So one of the three endings-and the only one where Shepherd survives-entails wiping out *all* synthetic life. Including the Geth. This actually makes you worse than the reapers.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 18, 2012, 11:18:46 PM
ME2 was at least as good as 3. Probably better. The "cinematic" quality of ME3 will severely limit replay value.
I'm pretty goddamned pissed. #2 on that article really hit me. I'm pretty pissed.
On release, ME2 was a very simplistic and short game. Only when you add all the DLCs, including the Shadow broker does the game truly shine.
The emphasis was made on quick combat action, get in one place, shoot the ennemy, get out. With ME3, it's like there's a story being told, and I'm part of it.
In ME2, the scanning mini game was boring and silly. The hacking mini game was silly.
With ME3, only the galaxy scanning "let's not alert the Reapers" gets tedious the second time the Reapers come in the star system.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 18, 2012, 11:59:21 PM
So one of the three endings-and the only one where Shepherd survives-entails wiping out *all* synthetic life. Including the Geth. This actually makes you worse than the reapers.
does EDI survive when you make that choice?
Quote from: Queequeg on March 18, 2012, 11:59:21 PM
So one of the three endings-and the only one where Shepherd survives-entails wiping out *all* synthetic life. Including the Geth. This actually makes you worse than the reapers.
:yes:
Control ending = TIM.
Synthesis/space hippy ending = Saren.
Destroy Ending = Anderson.
Destroy is the still a horrible ending. You fail as Shepard to preserve galactic civilization and it shits all over your choices thus far, paragon or renegade.
This review sums up the game pretty well.
http://calitreview.com/24673 (http://calitreview.com/24673)
QuoteWithout giving anything away, (directly, as all subsequent links will contain some spoilers) the ending, by which I mean the final five to ten minutes, of Mass Effect 3 is easily the worst finale I've seen compared to the preceding quality that came before it – in any medium. At literally every level, it's objectively terrible.
Sloppy execution that reuses art assets reveals that it's a hurried inclusion. The under thought and over pretentious dialogue does nothing but create bizarre, confusing plot holes. It even commits the same sin The Devil Inside did earlier this year, and has the gall to add an advertisement by the producers at the end of the credits, which is frankly insulting.
Far more importantly though, it betrays key themes and values well established by the series thus far. Past player choice impacting the shape of events is negated in favor of an arbitrary and poorly explained "pick your favorite color" moment. Science fiction justification in an otherwise material world is abandoned for magical deism, since quite literally, a god in a machine appears. Unification through altruism and sacrifice is thrown out for pure nihilism: each of the choices you're forced to make results in Shepard committing some level of genocide or another, with the benefits removed from any relatable emotional touchstone to the intangible space of far flung statistics. It even manages to make The Reapers, one of the more imposing forces of antagonism in recent memory, come across as foolish pawns.
That was the worst ending I've seen since Neon Genesis Evangelion - which it actually is somewhat similar to. It makes me wonder not only why, but how it could have happened; how could a series with such a rich background and such generally excellent writing been allowed to have such a horrible ending?
Yeah, it's actually far worse than the DA2 ending. Which really was spectacularly lame. But at least in DA2 we knew right off the bat that we were being shackled into a shitty conflict.
The game is an absolute fucking marvel before the ending, I don't think the Cal Lit review is fair at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zagpVInvjA&feature=endscreen&NR=1
that seems to be a good ending.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 20, 2012, 01:36:43 AM
The game is an absolute fucking marvel before the ending, I don't think the Cal Lit review is fair at all.
Read the full review. You'll find that he agrees with you. And so do I, 99% of the game is the best Mass Effect there is then in the last 5 minutes it turns to shit.
Muzyka's statement is a measured response, I think.
Seriously, though, the first two episodes had no fucking children in them at all. None. And in the third episode, Shepard is supposed to give a fuck about kids? The krogans don't give a shit about kids, just procreation. Kids=mouths to feed, when you're fighting for survival.
Maybe they made the shit ending just so they could pump out some DLC to "fix" it later. Though I suppose I should not attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 19, 2012, 07:30:54 PM
each of the choices you're forced to make results in Shepard committing some level of genocide or another,
the only genocide is that of synthetic life when you choose the destroy option. Otherwise, everyone survives if your EMS score is high enough and you're full Paragon or Renegade.
It gets old, I know, but it's still fun to see. It's my favorite part of the movie :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b33tJx8iy0A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck
The above link has me pretty well convinced that the game's ending is just too subtle. Once explained from the above (heavily spoilered) perspective, I am convinced it's great.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 21, 2012, 04:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck
The above link has me pretty well convinced that the game's ending is just too subtle. Once explained from the above (heavily spoilered) perspective, I am convinced it's great.
I am sorry but my sarcasm meter is broken apparently, as I am not sure if you like the video or not.
I think it overanalyses the whole thing and is generally a load of crap. Poor guy put too much effort into this.
So, it seems all those who want a new ending have been heard:
http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/
I predict a yellow ending in a DLC coming soon to a computer near you! :P
QuoteThis is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.
This was one of the things that made the ending suspect to me.
Quote from: Tamas on March 21, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 21, 2012, 04:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck
The above link has me pretty well convinced that the game's ending is just too subtle. Once explained from the above (heavily spoilered) perspective, I am convinced it's great.
I am sorry but my sarcasm meter is broken apparently, as I am not sure if you like the video or not.
I think it overanalyses the whole thing and is generally a load of crap. Poor guy put too much effort into this.
I'm a little skeptical about this interpretation but if this is really what Bioware was going for in the ending then it's a pretty fucking awesome ending; one that would have duped the player as much as your Shepard. :cool:
Until you realize that now you'll have to pay another $20 for the ACTUAL ENDING TO THE GAME
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
What an odd ending.
Quote from: garbon on March 27, 2012, 12:34:31 AM
What an odd ending.
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Some interesting reactions to the ending:
http://youtu.be/xL2nQfAsReM
http://youtu.be/LHreafiT2oE
Superman :lol:
Quote from: Legbiter on March 27, 2012, 11:35:06 AM
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4199/motivator1b2e6e231f3635.jpg
My eyes or maybe it was just wishful thinking that it would poke them out. :hmm:
Tali has a ton of cybernetic implants. She should not survive the anti-Reaper ending.
But she does! Jesus, fuck that ending.
Was anyone else also expecting to see a lot more of the allied forces? I was really disappointed that I didn't see a single reference to the Rachni-seeing a Rachni ship take down a Reaper would have been fucking awesome. Or see a Geth Prime take on a Banshee. Or something. I created a fucking United Nations. I'm Eisenhower with a goddamn laser rifle. I expected to see multiethnic forces fighting.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 27, 2012, 10:53:08 PM
Tali has a ton of cybernetic implants. She should not survive the anti-Reaper ending.
But she does! Jesus, fuck that ending.
Where do you get she has cybernetic implants?
Quote
Was anyone else also expecting to see a lot more of the allied forces? I was really disappointed that I didn't see a single reference to the Rachni-seeing a Rachni ship take down a Reaper would have been fucking awesome. Or see a Geth Prime take on a Banshee. Or something. I created a fucking United Nations. I'm Eisenhower with a goddamn laser rifle. I expected to see multiethnic forces fighting.
Yeah, I would have like that too.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 27, 2012, 10:53:08 PM
Was anyone else also expecting to see a lot more of the allied forces? I was really disappointed that I didn't see a single reference to the Rachni-seeing a Rachni ship take down a Reaper would have been fucking awesome. Or see a Geth Prime take on a Banshee. Or something. I created a fucking United Nations. I'm Eisenhower with a goddamn laser rifle. I expected to see multiethnic forces fighting.
Yeah, that would have been way cooler. I think that disk space became a factor on that.
Well, after finally finishing the game, I found that I liked the ending, for the most part. Going back to status quo antebellum would have been a little weak an achievement for having saved not just civilization, but all future civilizations as well.
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 08:13:39 AM
Well, after finally finishing the game, I found that I liked the ending, for the most part. Going back to status quo antebellum would have been a little weak an achievement for having saved not just civilization, but all future civilizations as well.
Going to a BSG back to the basics isn't really interesting though.
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 10:05:31 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 08:13:39 AM
Well, after finally finishing the game, I found that I liked the ending, for the most part. Going back to status quo antebellum would have been a little weak an achievement for having saved not just civilization, but all future civilizations as well.
Going to a BSG back to the basics isn't really interesting though.
See, but that isn't the case. Although losing the mass relays (and to a much lesser extent, the Citidel) is certainly going to change galactic society, element zero and FTL technology still exists. Sure, you might not be flitting off to Rannoch to visit Tali's new house in a day, but you can trek across the Milky Way in a year or so. Trade and civilization will endure. And even then, it's not like the Mass Relays could never be duplicated by anybody who wasn't the Reapers. We know that the Prothean civilization built at least two mass relays, and that the ancient Protheans weren't tremendously far ahead of the more advanced species of the modern galaxy, such as the asari.
Really, this is a much more upbeat ending than the one I originally thought we were going to get, where the Mass Effect was damaging to the universe, and the Reapers were synthetic space environmentalists, destroying civilizations to prevent their overuse of element zero from ripping apart stars, Haestrom-style.
Does all of that FTL tech still exist? It wasn't entirely clear to me what counts as synthetic life and what doesn't, considering that they highlighted Shepard's artifical organs.
Also who is going to trek across the galaxy in a year or so? Seems like things are going to be much more localized for quite some time until they re-design suitable technology. Given that Thessia was all but destroyed (as well as other homelands of more advanced groups), it'll take quite some time to get back up to where they had been (especially given that Asari technological prowess was due to them hiding a prothean beacon).
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 11:25:05 AM
Does all of that FTL tech still exist? It wasn't entirely clear to me what counts as synthetic life and what doesn't, considering that they highlighted Shepard's artifical organs.
Also who is going to trek across the galaxy in a year or so? Seems like things are going to be much more localized for quite some time until they re-design suitable technology. Given that Thessia was all but destroyed (as well as other homelands of more advanced groups), it'll take quite some time to get back up to where they had been (especially given that Asari technological prowess was due to them hiding a prothean beacon).
I'm pretty sure that your desktop computer isn't alive. Besides, I took the 'control the reapers' option, as I was pretty sure that the destruction option would be either immoral (I'd always treated the geth as persons, to the point where I couldn't rewrite them in ME2) and the synthesis option was disgusting.
I would imagine that the Quarrians will do so, since they have to get back to Rannoch from Earth. The asari easily could, what with their enormous lifespans. Still, the funny thing about technology is that it doesn't matter how you get it, once you've learned it it's yours. It doesn't matter how the asari gained their prowess, simply that they're very technologically proficient. And there is a large grouping of scientists out there already, who built the Crucible. The scientific knowledge of the galaxy lives on, and they're already assembled.
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 12:18:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that your desktop computer isn't alive.
Like I said it wasn't clear to me what counts being alive. Does a VI count as alive? If the option isn't chosen, the Geth don't even really exist as individuals.
It also isn't clear to me how much of Earth has been destroyed given London vs. the tropical paradise. I'm not sure I buy that it would be very quick to mine the necessary materials to build technology? Where even are the scientists that built the Crucible? Are they anywhere near by? Floating about in space somewhere?
Besides couldn't something similar be said for BSG? It isn't as though those individuals suddenly lost all knowledge, though they were smacked back further with almost no tech and very few people.
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 12:18:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that your desktop computer isn't alive.
Like I said it wasn't clear to me what counts being alive. Does a VI count as alive? If the option isn't chosen, the Geth don't even really exist as individuals.
It also isn't clear to me how much of Earth has been destroyed given London vs. the tropical paradise. I'm not sure I buy that it would be very quick to mine the necessary materials to build technology? Where even are the scientists that built the Crucible? Are they anywhere near by? Floating about in space somewhere?
Besides couldn't something similar be said for BSG? It isn't as though those individuals suddenly lost all knowledge, though they were smacked back further with almost no tech and very few people.
No, the whole point of VIs is that they aren't alive. They're sophisticated chatbots.
We know that even though Earth's population centres have been ravaged, there is a very large and capable technological base in orbit, in the form of the united battlefleets of the galaxy, of which the Alliance is the largest and strongest part. If they were able to mine enough materials to build the Crucible, I doubt that simple industrial processes are beyond them. I don't think the location where the Crucible was built was ever mentioned.
The difference in BSG is that they chose willingly to embrace barbarism. The Mass Effect peoples are going to try and rebuild, whereas the BSG peoples are going to destroy themselves, forget everything they've known and hope and pray that if they stay weak and inoffensive that the Cylons won't exterminate them.
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 11:02:50 AM
See, but that isn't the case. Although losing the mass relays (and to a much lesser extent, the Citidel) is certainly going to change galactic society, element zero and FTL technology still exists. Sure, you might not be flitting off to Rannoch to visit Tali's new house in a day, but you can trek across the Milky Way in a year or so. Trade and civilization will endure. And even then, it's not like the Mass Relays could never be duplicated by anybody who wasn't the Reapers. We know that the Prothean civilization built at least two mass relays, and that the ancient Protheans weren't tremendously far ahead of the more advanced species of the modern galaxy, such as the asari.
Really, this is a much more upbeat ending than the one I originally thought we were going to get, where the Mass Effect was damaging to the universe, and the Reapers were synthetic space environmentalists, destroying civilizations to prevent their overuse of element zero from ripping apart stars, Haestrom-style.
Your fanfic is more hopeful than mine. In it stranded krogan get hungry and eat the rest of humanity.
Quote from: Legbiter on March 28, 2012, 01:53:53 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 11:02:50 AM
See, but that isn't the case. Although losing the mass relays (and to a much lesser extent, the Citidel) is certainly going to change galactic society, element zero and FTL technology still exists. Sure, you might not be flitting off to Rannoch to visit Tali's new house in a day, but you can trek across the Milky Way in a year or so. Trade and civilization will endure. And even then, it's not like the Mass Relays could never be duplicated by anybody who wasn't the Reapers. We know that the Prothean civilization built at least two mass relays, and that the ancient Protheans weren't tremendously far ahead of the more advanced species of the modern galaxy, such as the asari.
Really, this is a much more upbeat ending than the one I originally thought we were going to get, where the Mass Effect was damaging to the universe, and the Reapers were synthetic space environmentalists, destroying civilizations to prevent their overuse of element zero from ripping apart stars, Haestrom-style.
Your fanfic is more hopeful than mine. In it stranded krogan get hungry and eat the rest of humanity.
Except nobody is actually stranded. Everybody keeps forgetting the existance of faster-than-light travel.
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
Besides couldn't something similar be said for BSG? It isn't as though those individuals suddenly lost all knowledge, though they were smacked back further with almost no tech and very few people.
In BSG, they chose to abandon all technology and destroy all their fleets. This is quite different.
Interesting. Would Earth then be populated with the survivors of the fleet until the development of Mass Relay technology? There would presumably be a lot of empty spaces to fill on earth.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 04:44:20 PM
Interesting. Would Earth then be populated with the survivors of the fleet until the development of Mass Relay technology? There would presumably be a lot of empty spaces to fill on earth.
No, because they could just go home. Sur'Kesh is fairly close, and Tuchanka and Palaven not that much further. Thessia is a ways, and Rannoch is almost as far as a world can be though.
That's a pretty huge chunk of the fleet if you manage to patch things up between the Quarians and the Geth, though. The entire military arm of the Quarian fleet-and possibly a lot of militarized civilian ships. You are looking at a substantial % of the total Quarian population on the exact opposite side of the galaxy as Rannoch.
I think the Geth and the Rachni wouldn't really give a shit about what planets they were allowed to inhabit, though.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 06:44:22 PM
That's a pretty huge chunk of the fleet if you manage to patch things up between the Quarians and the Geth, though. The entire military arm of the Quarian fleet-and possibly a lot of militarized civilian ships. You are looking at a substantial % of the total Quarian population on the exact opposite side of the galaxy as Rannoch.
I think the Geth and the Rachni wouldn't really give a shit about what planets they were allowed to inhabit, though.
The geth and the rachni don't care at all (in fact, the geth aren't really that interested in planetary systems much at all). As for the quarians, Earth is still fatal to them. The only planet that really matters to them is Rannoch, and they're pretty familiar with long-term space travel. What's a year or two against the lifetime they've already spent in space?
A year or two? How fast past the speed of light are we talking?
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 07:12:23 PM
A year or two? How fast past the speed of light are we talking?
They never quantify it. I'm just basing travel times on the Reapers coming in from dark space.
I presumed they used the Relay system. You murder a lot of Batarians on that assumption.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 08:41:18 PM
I presumed they used the Relay system. You murder a lot of Batarians on that assumption.
Once they get to a relay, sure. Remember though that the whole point of Mass Effect 1 was to prevent Sovereign from activating the relay from Dark Space, of which our end is the Citadel. I think that they reentered the galaxy under standard FTL.
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 08:41:18 PM
I presumed they used the Relay system. You murder a lot of Batarians on that assumption.
Once they get to a relay, sure. Remember though that the whole point of Mass Effect 1 was to prevent Sovereign from activating the relay from Dark Space, of which our end is the Citadel. I think that they reentered the galaxy under standard FTL.
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 08:41:18 PM
I presumed they used the Relay system. You murder a lot of Batarians on that assumption.
Once they get to a relay, sure. Remember though that the whole point of Mass Effect 1 was to prevent Sovereign from activating the relay from Dark Space, of which our end is the Citadel. I think that they reentered the galaxy under standard FTL.
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Actually, they were dismissed by most people as raving lunatics. How much attention do people get in the US when they call for everyone to prepare for the Rapture?
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 09:22:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 08:41:18 PM
I presumed they used the Relay system. You murder a lot of Batarians on that assumption.
Once they get to a relay, sure. Remember though that the whole point of Mass Effect 1 was to prevent Sovereign from activating the relay from Dark Space, of which our end is the Citadel. I think that they reentered the galaxy under standard FTL.
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Actually, they were dismissed by most people as raving lunatics. How much attention do people get in the US when they call for everyone to prepare for the Rapture?
And yet somehow Shepard is unique and can get powerful individuals of different stripes to believe.
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:26:51 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 09:22:45 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 08:41:18 PM
I presumed they used the Relay system. You murder a lot of Batarians on that assumption.
Once they get to a relay, sure. Remember though that the whole point of Mass Effect 1 was to prevent Sovereign from activating the relay from Dark Space, of which our end is the Citadel. I think that they reentered the galaxy under standard FTL.
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Actually, they were dismissed by most people as raving lunatics. How much attention do people get in the US when they call for everyone to prepare for the Rapture?
And yet somehow Shepard is unique and can get powerful individuals of different stripes to believe.
Actually, pretty much nobody of any real importance believes him until the Reapers actually show up. Shepard gets props for stopping Saren and the Collectors, but he doesn't have the evidence to support his claims until they show up and start cutting the batarians to pieces.
I think most people were on board around the time the Collectors were destroyed. Palaven was building defenses, and it looked like Shepard was in some kind of mixed detention/preparation for invasion.
Quote from: Queequeg on March 28, 2012, 11:58:42 PM
I think most people were on board around the time the Collectors were destroyed. Palaven was building defenses, and it looked like Shepard was in some kind of mixed detention/preparation for invasion.
Palaven is always building defences. That's what happens when the state and the army are the same thing. The asari and the salarians remained unmoved. I will say that Shepard did have two important and powerful allies outside his squadmates: Anderson and Hackett.
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Remember ME2 when you visit the council... they dismiss you saying it was just a Geth ship and the file is closed.
Quote from: viper37 on March 29, 2012, 09:56:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Remember ME2 when you visit the council... they dismiss you saying it was just a Geth ship and the file is closed.
Yes and then Shepard alone is able to get the Illusive Man to finance an expedition. The Illusive Man points out that such is why he brought Shepard back to life because of his unique ability to get the job done. Far-fetched that Shepard is so uniquely charismatic...although I guess I can understand why the dithering Kaidan was ineffectual. :D
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 08:03:34 PM
They never quantify it. I'm just basing travel times on the Reapers coming in from dark space.
The Reapers are much more technologically advanced than any other race. I don't think we can assume that their FTL abilities are par for all races.
Quote from: garbon on March 29, 2012, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 29, 2012, 09:56:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Remember ME2 when you visit the council... they dismiss you saying it was just a Geth ship and the file is closed.
Yes and then Shepard alone is able to get the Illusive Man to finance an expedition. The Illusive Man points out that such is why he brought Shepard back to life because of his unique ability to get the job done. Far-fetched that Shepard is so uniquely charismatic...although I guess I can understand why the dithering Kaidan was ineffectual. :D
Shepard didn't convince the Illusive Man to do anything, as he was dead when the Illusive Man made his decision.
Quote from: Neil on March 29, 2012, 11:57:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 29, 2012, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 29, 2012, 09:56:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Remember ME2 when you visit the council... they dismiss you saying it was just a Geth ship and the file is closed.
Yes and then Shepard alone is able to get the Illusive Man to finance an expedition. The Illusive Man points out that such is why he brought Shepard back to life because of his unique ability to get the job done. Far-fetched that Shepard is so uniquely charismatic...although I guess I can understand why the dithering Kaidan was ineffectual. :D
Shepard didn't convince the Illusive Man to do anything, as he was dead when the Illusive Man made his decision.
The Illusive Man stated that he spent his resources to bring Shepard back as he felt that Shepard was uniquely gifted to carry out the task. Shepard had the ability to corral people into doing things for him.
Quote from: Kleves on March 29, 2012, 11:12:02 AM
Quote from: Neil on March 28, 2012, 08:03:34 PM
They never quantify it. I'm just basing travel times on the Reapers coming in from dark space.
The Reapers are much more technologically advanced than any other race. I don't think we can assume that their FTL abilities are par for all races.
They're definitely faster than standard ships as a function of their extremely large element zero cores. That said, I'm not sure that they're all that much faster than the Normandy. While they're more advanced, they haven't really been focusing on improving themselves. Even if you extend the transit times a bit, it's not like it's going to collapse interstellar trade.
Quote from: garbon on March 29, 2012, 12:00:23 PM
The Illusive Man stated that he spent his resources to bring Shepard back as he felt that Shepard was uniquely gifted to carry out the task. Shepard had the ability to corral people into doing things for him.
I can accept that. And I'm sure Shepard's status as the human Spectre added the appeal for the Illusive Man. It's always nice to have a celebrity on board, and Shepard legitimizes Cerberus just by working with them.
Quote from: garbon on March 29, 2012, 12:00:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 29, 2012, 11:57:26 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 29, 2012, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: viper37 on March 29, 2012, 09:56:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 28, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
If that was the case than ME1 looks pretty silly. Shepard's crew just dicked around saying nothing when in a few years they knew the Reapers would show up?
Remember ME2 when you visit the council... they dismiss you saying it was just a Geth ship and the file is closed.
Yes and then Shepard alone is able to get the Illusive Man to finance an expedition. The Illusive Man points out that such is why he brought Shepard back to life because of his unique ability to get the job done. Far-fetched that Shepard is so uniquely charismatic...although I guess I can understand why the dithering Kaidan was ineffectual. :D
Shepard didn't convince the Illusive Man to do anything, as he was dead when the Illusive Man made his decision.
The Illusive Man stated that he spent his resources to bring Shepard back as he felt that Shepard was uniquely gifted to carry out the task. Shepard had the ability to corral people into doing things for him.
Shepard = The Exile (from KOTOR 2)
Having the ability to corral people into doing things for you does not mean you will be 100% successfull 100% of the times. And the effect a natural born leader like Sheppard may have on people who've known him personally would be different than with aliens who consider humans to be some inferior form.
A ship captain may be well liked by his crew, but it may not be the same with the top admiralty.
In this case, Shepard manage to convince people who already suspected something foulish was happening.
Garrus was tracking Saren, Ash&Keydan were soldiers following orders, Liara was studying Protheans and knew of the Reapers, Grunt was in for the fight.
The council, well, they are diplomats, not soldiers, not scientists. They believe widespread panick is worst than anything and do not want to look ridiculous if the threat is not real.
That made me laugh :D
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/supplydepot/ (http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/supplydepot/)
Quote
- Endless hours of gaming including repeat playthroughs and Endurance Mode!
- Deep, rewarding gameplay—multilevel play control allows you to both RAISE and LOWER Supply Depot!
- Riveting backstory set in the StarCraft game universe!
- Get up close and personal with an iconic StarCraft hero!
- Multiple endings, each influenced by your choices and color-coded for your convenience! (Further epic endings planned for post release as downloadable content.)
- Tens of hundreds of thousands of unlockable hats!
Bioware to release yellow ending free DLC:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11021386
I approve of them not changing the endings, but I'm glad they're doing an epilogue.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F000%2F271%2F293%2F577.jpg&hash=4aab3170721be87b2f1a0ca710bd7584b842bc2a)
Throwing good writing after bad isn't going to fix the ending, that's just polishing a turd.
You know, the ending really didn't bother me. I found the last decision to be quite meaningful.
I tend to agree with Neil on this. The ending wasn't nearly as bad as people make it to be. There are flaws, for sure, but it ain't broken beyond redemption.
I disagree with those who want a fairy tale ending. I disagree that Sheppard should single handedly challenge the Reaper boss and send them packing home. I also disagree that somehow, a fight that we're constantly told for 3 games that we cannot win is suddenly winnable by conventional means.
Having the Crucible destroy the Reaper fleet as soon as it docks on the Citadel would be equally cheating, it would be a Deus Ex Machina just as the Catalyst is considered.
As it is now, the ending is mostly consistent with Mass Effect lore and most plotholes aren't, they are simply people who never read the codex and don't pay attention to in game dialog.
The entire series was about choices and diplomacy. Then, in the last 3 minutes, everything becomes different colored lights. I think the ending deserves a lot of the shit it gets.
Also, some of it doesn't make any kind of sense. Where does Shepherd's wound come from? It looks like he was shot in the exact place where he shot Anderson.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 12, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
Also, some of it doesn't make any kind of sense. Where does Shepherd's wound come from? It looks like he was shot in the exact place where he shot Anderson.
A result of the blast on Earth, in London. He is seen limping toward Marauder Shields, and he is then shot before coming back to his senses.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 12, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
Also, some of it doesn't make any kind of sense. Where does Shepherd's wound come from? It looks like he was shot in the exact place where he shot Anderson.
Indoctrination Theory answers all.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 12, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
The entire series was about choices and diplomacy. Then, in the last 3 minutes, everything becomes different colored lights. I think the ending deserves a lot of the shit it gets.
See, that's a common misconception. The three choices have pretty enormous implications, even if the artwork is similar.
QuoteAlso, some of it doesn't make any kind of sense. Where does Shepherd's wound come from? It looks like he was shot in the exact place where he shot Anderson.
Shot by Marauder Shields?
Quote from: Habbaku on April 12, 2012, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 12, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
Also, some of it doesn't make any kind of sense. Where does Shepherd's wound come from? It looks like he was shot in the exact place where he shot Anderson.
Indoctrination Theory answers all.
Yeah, but it's also untrue.
Quote from: Neil on April 12, 2012, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 12, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
The entire series was about choices and diplomacy. Then, in the last 3 minutes, everything becomes different colored lights. I think the ending deserves a lot of the shit it gets.
See, that's a common misconception. The three choices have pretty enormous implications, even if the artwork is similar.
Not really. The series ends there, so it doesn't really matter much what choice you picked. Also, it doesn't really seem to align with the choices you've made throughout the game. That's why I hated the whole pick the quarians or geth. The choice felt forced and not in a particularly inspired way.
Quote from: viper37 on April 12, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
I tend to agree with Neil on this. The ending wasn't nearly as bad as people make it to be. There are flaws, for sure, but it ain't broken beyond redemption.
I disagree with those who want a fairy tale ending. I disagree that Sheppard should single handedly challenge the Reaper boss and send them packing home. I also disagree that somehow, a fight that we're constantly told for 3 games that we cannot win is suddenly winnable by conventional means.
Having the Crucible destroy the Reaper fleet as soon as it docks on the Citadel would be equally cheating, it would be a Deus Ex Machina just as the Catalyst is considered.
As it is now, the ending is mostly consistent with Mass Effect lore and most plotholes aren't, they are simply people who never read the codex and don't pay attention to in game dialog.
I guess that's a nice strawman as I don't think the main complaint has been that Shepard can't live. It's really that the choices at the end run roughshod over all the choices you've made over the course of the game. Well that and they aren't particularly compelling. :D
Of course I really should have guessed something like that given how many dream sequences you have to spend running after a dead child. :D
Quote from: garbon on April 12, 2012, 01:28:31 PM
I guess that's a nice strawman as I don't think the main complaint has been that Shepard can't live.
Read Bioware's forum. It's filled to the brim with threads like "I want my blue babies" or "What kind of sad person does not want a good ending??"
Quote from: viper37 on April 18, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 12, 2012, 01:28:31 PM
I guess that's a nice strawman as I don't think the main complaint has been that Shepard can't live.
Read Bioware's forum. It's filled to the brim with threads like "I want my blue babies" or "What kind of sad person does not want a good ending??"
Well at least I don't recall anyone making that complaint here. I can't speak for the general populace, especially on boards I don't visit. :P
Quote from: garbon on April 18, 2012, 10:10:19 AM
Well at least I don't recall anyone making that complaint here. I can't speak for the general populace, especially on boards I don't visit. :P
You should visit. It's a really nice forum... filled with weird kids & über nerds who seem to play for a living, or have no life to speak of :P
There are some interesting threads like
"Guys, there are girls playing this game!!!" :D
I've abandonned playing the MP game. Too many bugs, too many kids.
I'm not a fan of the MP game. As it just throws random level players in, I've find it pretty common to reach the 10th level and then get slaughtered.
So, the new ending is out today.
Apparently it lets you shoot the star child. :lol:
The extended DLC is out and it takes almost all of the shitfuck out of the previous endings and adds a brand new ending.
I'm willing to grant Canada the right to exist as a nation in light of these developments.
P.S. Don't shoot the Starbrat.