QuoteU.S. soldier held after firing on Afghans, killing at least 16, officials say
KABUL — An American soldier wandered outside his base in a remote southern Afghan village shortly before dawn Sunday and allegedly opened fire on civilians inside homes, killing at least 16, Afghan and U.S. officials said.
The attack marked perhaps the grisliest act by a U.S. soldier in the decade-long Afghan war and seemed all but certain to stoke anti-American anger in a crucial battleground as foreign troops start to thin out in the south. Afghan officials said women and children were among those killed in the Panjwai district of Kandahar province, the birthplace of the Taliban movement.
Coming as Afghan rage over last month's burning of Korans by U.S. soldiers was beginning to taper off, the killings threatened to spark a new crisis in the strained relationship between Washington and Kabul. The two nations are in the midst of contentious negotiations over an agreement that could extend the presence of U.S. troops in the country beyond 2014.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai called the shootings an "assassination" and demanded an explanation from U.S. officials, the Associated Press reported. "This is an assassination, an intentional killing of innocent civilians, and cannot be forgiven," Karzai said in a statement, the AP reported.
U.S. Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta said he spoke with Karzai on Sunday and reassured him that the U.S. military was working quickly to determine what happened and "bring those responsible to justice."
"We will spare no effort in getting the facts as quickly as possible, and we will hold any perpetrator who is responsible for this violence fully accountable under the law," Panetta said.
Panetta said he was "shocked and saddened that a U.S. service member is alleged to be involved, clearly acting outside the chain of his command." And in an echo of his comments after the Koran burning, he sought to reassure Afghans and Americans alike that the killings would not tear apart the partnership between Kabul and Washington.
"We are steadfast in our resolve to work hand in hand with our Afghan partners to accomplish the missions and goals on which we have been working together for so long," he said. "This terrible incident does not reflect our shared values or the progress we have made together."
President Obama said he was "deeply saddened" by the incident and offered his condolences to the families of those killed and the Afghan people.
"This incident is tragic and shocking, and does not represent the exceptional character of our military and the respect that the United States has for the people of Afghanistan," Obama said in a statement. "I fully support Secretary Panetta's and General Allen's commitment to get the facts as quickly as possible and to hold accountable anyone responsible."
U.S. officials shed no light on the motive or state of mind of the staff sergeant who was taken into custody shortly after the alleged massacre.
"It appears he walked off post and later returned and turned himself in," said Lt. Cmdr. James Williams, a military spokesman.
U.S. military officials stressed that the shooting was carried out by a lone, rogue soldier, differentiating it from past instances of civilians killed accidentally during military operations.
"I cannot explain the motivation behind such callous acts," Lt. Gen. Adrian J. Bradshaw, the deputy commander of the international troop coalition in Afghanistan, said in a statement. "They were in no way part of authorized military activity."
The top U.S. military commander in Afghanistan pledged a thorough investigation and full cooperation with Afghan authorities.
"I was shocked and saddened to hear of the shooting incident today in Kandahar Province," Marine Gen. John R. Allen said in a statement Sunday. "I offer my profound regret and deepest condolences to the victims and their families. I pledge to all the noble people of Afghanistan my commitment to a rapid and thorough investigation."
Allen said the U.S. military would continue to provide medical care for those injured in the shootings and would maintain custody of the service member alleged to have committed the acts.
Fazal Mohammad Esaqzai, the deputy chief of the provincial council, said enraged villagers loaded the bodies into cars and drove to the entrance of the nearby American base to demand answers.
"They were very angry," said Esaqzai, who was part of an investigative delegation that visited the villages where the shootings took place. "They wanted to do something to take revenge."
Esaqzai, who said he saw the 16 bodies, provided the following account. About midnight, 11 people, including three women; four children whose ages ranged from 6 to 9; and four men were executed inside the home of a village elder.
"They entered the room where the women and children were sleeping, and they were all shot in the head," Esaqzai said, adding that he was doubtful of the U.S. account suggesting the killings were the work of a lone gunman. "They were all shot in the head."
After roughly an hour, residents in a nearby village heard gunshots, and they later discovered the corpses of five men inside two nearby houses, Esaqzai said.
At least five people wounded in the shooting rampage were being treated at a U.S. military medical facility. Afghan and U.S. officials braced for a larger outcry later in the week.
"We assure the people of Afghanistan that the individual or individuals responsible for this act will be identified and brought to justice," the U.S. Embassy in Kabul said in a statement.
The Taliban was quick to weigh in on the incident, characterizing it as a "massacre" committed during the course of a night raid by American and Afghan forces.
"The so called American peace keepers have once again quenched their thirst with the blood of innocent Afghan civilians," the Taliban statement said.
Provincial officials sent an investigative team to the villages where the shootings took place. The U.S. military launched its own probe.
"We strongly condemn this incident," said Zalmai Ayoubi, a spokesman for the provincial governor.
Panjwai, southwest of Kandahar city, has been one of the most challenging battlegrounds for international forces here. The area was the cradle of the Taliban movement in the early 1990s, and the militant group has fought hard to maintain control over villages.
Wresting Kandahar province from Taliban control was one of the chief objectives of President Obama's 2009 troop surge. U.S. military officials say they have been largely successful in restoring a semblance of Afghan government control in areas once controlled by the Taliban. But as the foreign troop footprint starts to shrink in the south, many Afghans fear the Taliban will regain its lost ground.
Although anger over the burning of Korans last month sparked nationwide riots and protests, and prompted Afghan security forces to open fire on U.S. troops, reaction to the desecration of holy books was relatively muted in the south.
Sunday's death toll was far higher than the notorious string of killings allegedly carried out in 2010 by a rogue U.S. army platoon that became known as the Kill Team. The slaying of at least three men in the Maywand district of Kandahar became one of the biggest scandals of the Afghan war, after investigators found that soldiers had kept body parts as trophies and passed off unarmed victims as insurgents.
Afghans were also angered early this year, when a video showing U.S. Marines urinating on the bodies of suspected insurgents was posted online.
If Sunday's shootings spawn a wave of protests and retaliatory attacks, it could set a grim tone as the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan heads to Washington this week for official meetings and a hearing on Capitol Hill.
The partnership between Karzai's government and the Obama administration has been sorely tested in recent weeks by the Koran burning, fratricidal killings of U.S. troops by their Afghan proteges and other issues. Although those problems have led to increased calls by some U.S. lawmakers for a speedier withdrawal, U.S. military officials said they were determined to absorb the political fallout and public anger that have been generated.
"This deeply appalling incident in no way represents the values of . . . coalition troops or the abiding respect we feel for the Afghan people," Allen, the commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said in his statement. "Nor does it impugn or diminish the spirit of cooperation and partnership we have worked so hard to foster with the Afghan National Security Forces."
"We're fully cognizant that even things that are unrelated can have an impact," added a senior U.S. defense official in Washington, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. "But we see no demonstrable effect on our operations or on our broader ability to work with our Afghan partners."
I'm not sure why we are still over there even though the article gives the ostensible reasons why.
Quote from: garbon on March 11, 2012, 01:39:54 PM
I'm not sure why we are still over there even though the article gives the ostensible reasons why.
I'm sure why we're over there, and I agree with it, and will continue to agree with it until every filthy male rock farmer of combatant age even remotely sympathetic with the Taliban and the 9/11 attacks is dead.
But we're well past the point now where we're doing ourselves any favors.
:blink: Tragic!!!!
...but necessary.
QuoteU.S. soldier held after firing on Afghans, killing at least 16, officials say
I only read the headline, I think it's missing the words "a parade."
I didn't know Siegy was over there already.
Friday prayer ought to be scads of fun.
Quote from: katmai on March 12, 2012, 11:28:59 AM
I didn't know Siegy was over there already.
It's too bad, I'll miss all the drunk posts. :(
The soldier was from Ft. Lewis. Trained by Seige?
This guy better have some serious Colonel Kurtz unsanctioned counter-intel shit on these villagers, or it's gonna be a really bad week for our troops in the 'Stan.
But I don't think those 9 children were Viet Cong double agents.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 12, 2012, 01:10:44 PM
This guy better have some serious Colonel Kurtz unsanctioned counter-intel shit on these villagers, or it's gonna be a really bad week for our troops in the 'Stan.
But I don't think those 9 children were Viet Cong double agents.
I dunno. They seem to get more riled about burning Korans then people.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 12, 2012, 01:13:45 PM
I dunno. They seem to get more riled about burning Korans then people.
Valid point, but with every Afghani kid that gets whacked, that's one less future Talibanistani enrolled in the local madrasa.
Quote from: citizen k on March 12, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
The soldier was from Ft. Lewis. Trained by Seige?
No way.
I always taught my guys the right way to do it, and get away with it:
1- No women, no kids, unless they got guns.
2- MAMs (military age males) are fair game, even without guns, as long as you can talk your way out it, convincing your chain of command the dudes were a threat.
3- Never kill 16 at ONE TIME. I mean, come on. You can get away with 40, in twos and threes, but not with SIXTEEN at ONCE.
Bottom line, make sure you yourself are convinced you did the right thing and were right in making the decission to squeze the trigger.
I have shot men that weren't armed, but i have never shot a civilian. Terrorists don't carry guns all the time. They are still terrorists.
And I have shot kids, 12 or 13 years old, but they did have weapons and were shooting on friendlies.
Never had to shoot a woman though, or a girl, thankfully.
Misread the title and thought we accidentally burnt some Koreans.
Besides, I don't see the point of this stupid shit this dude did.
I mean, everybody over there are either terrorists, terrorist factories, or terrorists in the making.
Shooting the terrorists is our duty, but if we shoot out the terrorist factories and the terrorists in the making, who are we going to fight in the future?
Winning is great, but if we got nobody to fight in the future, the next generations of americans are going to be pussies.
Quote from: Siege on March 12, 2012, 06:05:56 PM
Besides, I don't see the point of this stupid shit this dude did.
I mean, everybody over there are either terrorists, terrorist factories, or terrorists in the making.
Shooting the terrorists is our duty, but if we shoot out the terrorist factories and the terrorists in the making, who are we going to fight in the future?
Winning is great, but if we got nobody to fight in the future, the next generations of americans are going to be pussies.
I'm starting to believe what Neil says about you being a Chinese agent.
[Siege]I may have shot many men who weren't armed, but I never shot anyone who didn't have a gun on them.[/Siege]
I'm kind of hoping he's not serious. He's veering into batshit crazy war criminal territory again. Siege committing murder is not really helpful to the cause.
Raz, since when can you tell when I'm trolling or not?
When you spell alright it means you are not drunk - i.e. trolling. Or vice versa.
Quote from: Siege on March 12, 2012, 09:12:24 PM
Raz, since when can you tell when I'm trolling or not?
You get weird around Muslims.
Hey, guy was a staff sergeant trained as a sniper in his mid to late 30's. I swear CNN is trying to get the afghans to riot. Or at least give the impression they are rioting. They keep juxtapositioning images of the riots from last week with the story about the dead afghans. Talking about afghan "rage". Mostly it looks like grief and shock to me. It's really weird.
CNN just had a chick on from Stars and Stripes telling us about Ft. Lewis/McChord being a problem base.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 13, 2012, 08:50:05 AM
CNN just had a chick on from Stars and Stripes telling us about Ft. Lewis/McChord being a problem base.
I don't know if the problem is with the base, or
QuoteThe suspect, a trained sniper, received a diagnosis of traumatic brain injury after sustaining a head injury in Iraq during a vehicle rollover in 2010, two U.S. military officials said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive details of the case. The soldier was subsequently declared fit for duty, the officials said.
Bet he had an SS flag, too.
I wonder if it's an organic problem. That can happen, Charles Whitman was like that.
Assassination attempt on visiting U.S. Secretary of Defense?
U.S. government distrust of its own troops?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/panetta-visits-afghanistan-following-massacre.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world/asia/panetta-visits-afghanistan-following-massacre.html)
QuoteAn Afghan drove a stolen vehicle on to a runway ramp at a military base in southern Afghanistan and then ran from it ablaze as a plane carrying Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta landed there on Wednesday morning.
...
As part of the visit, Mr. Panetta traveled to Camp Leatherneck, a vast military base in the desert of neighboring Helmand Province, where he addressed some 200 Marines... In a sign of the nervousness surrounding Mr. Panetta's trip, the Marines and other troops who were waiting in a tent for the defense secretary to speak were abruptly asked by their commander to get up, place their weapons — M-16 and M-4 automatic rifles and 9-mm pistols — outside the tent and then return unarmed. The commander, Sgt. Maj. Brandon Hall, told reporters he was acting on orders from superiors.
"All I know is, I was told to get the weapons out," he said. Asked why, he replied, "Somebody got itchy, that's all I've got to say. Somebody got itchy; we just adjust."
Normally, American forces in Afghanistan keep their weapons with them when the defense secretary visits and speaks to them.
I know he wasn't particularly liked at CIA, but still can't imagine anyone wanting to frag the SecDef, whoever he is.
QuoteNormally, American forces in Afghanistan keep their weapons with them when the defense secretary visits and speaks to them.
Yeah, well this ain't no normal visit.
Given the current geopolitical situation in the region, I have a feeling the last significant US and/or Nato troops will end up withdrawing over that exact same box girder bridge*.
Oh and the Krazy Karzi kleptocracy will collapse quicker that a throthing baptist at a snake fondling seance.
* Meanwhile the bridge will remain, perhaps awaiting the next occupiers ?
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2012, 02:43:35 PM
Given the current geopolitical situation in the region, I have a feeling the last significant US and/or Nato troops will end up withdrawing over that exact same box girder bridge*.
Oh and the Krazy Karzi kleptocracy will collapse quicker that a throthing baptist at a snake fondling seance.
* Meanwhile the bridge will remain, perhaps awaiting the next occupiers ?
Maybe we'll see him strung up like Mussolini.
Snake fondling? :D
Afghans still haven't rioted over this. Looks like burning children in a sack is a lesser crime then burning Korans.
Actually, Koran burning is much worse to Afghans.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46742088/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/#.T2F-tXmb4wA
QuoteUS-Afghan disconnect in reactions to two incidents
Muted reaction to mass killing compared to Koran burning surprises many Americans
By ROD NORDLAND
updated 1 hour 6 minutes ago
KABUL, Afghanistan — The mullah was astounded and a little angered to be asked why the accidental burning of Korans last month could provoke violence nationwide, while an intentional mass murder that included nine children last Sunday did not.
"How can you compare the dishonoring of the Holy Koran with the martyrdom of innocent civilians?" said an incredulous Mullah Khaliq Dad, a member of the council of religious leaders who investigated the Koran burnings. "The whole goal of our life is religion."
That many Americans are just as surprised that what appears to be the massacre of 16 people at the hands of an American soldier has not led to mass protests or revenge killings speaks volumes about a fundamental disconnect with their Afghan partners, one that has undermined a longstanding objective to win the hearts and minds of the population. After more than 10 years, many deaths and billions of dollars invested, Americans still fail to grasp the Afghans' basic values. Faith is paramount and a death can be compensated with blood money.
"To Muslims, and especially to Afghans, religion is much higher a concern than civilian or human casualties," said Hafez Abdul Qayoom, a member of Afghanistan's highest clerical body, the Ulema Council. "When something happens to their religion, they are much more sensitive and have much stronger reaction to it."
The attack by a still unidentified United States Army soldier near his base in the Panjwai district, in southern Kandahar Province, has certainly infuriated Afghans and added to already strained relations. But the anger has been more polemical than violent — at least so far.
"We have to hold our breath here — people are jumping too fast on this idea that Afghans don't care about 16 people being killed, compared to, say, the Koran-burning episode," said Haseeb Humayoon, a social scientist here who has studied the phenomenon of mass protests.
There have been delayed reactions to past foreign offenses, like when a Florida evangelist deliberately destroyed a Koran last year. And Friday Prayers, which often touch off mass protests, have yet to take place this week. Still, the contrast with the reaction to the Feb. 20 Koran burnings is striking. Within a day of the burnings, violent protests outside NATO bases broke out, and apologies from top officials did little to stem two weeks of violence that took at least 29 lives.
In the case of the massacre in Kandahar, prompt apologies and condemnations from not only Gen. John R. Allen, the commander of the international force, but also President Obama — along with quick action by local leaders — seemed to head off violence and contain the blowback.
In Kandahar, villagers at first wanted to take the bodies of their victims into the city, but elders persuaded them that displaying them to crowds would lead to mass violence, and they desisted. Instead, they expressed their anguish to top officials who rushed there from Kabul, and in phone calls with President Hamid Karzai. In Jalalabad, university students organized a demonstration, burning Mr. Obama and a Christian cross in effigy, but despite strident demands that the Americans leave, the protest remained peaceful and disbanded without incident.
Partly, many observers say, the Americans have had a lot of practice at apologizing for carnage, accidental and otherwise, and have gotten better at doing it quickly and convincingly.
"The statement coming from President Obama, saying the killing of Afghan children felt the same as if they were American children, was reported widely by the local press," Mr. Humayoon said. "Previously you would have a bland apology."
The Ulema Council, which is heavily influenced by the presidential palace, had immediately issued a passionate denunciation, saying of the Americans, "The human rights violators of the 21st century once more committed a wild, inhuman and shameful act and relentlessly martyred innocent children, women and men." But Mullah Qayoom said the quick reaction and prompt apology helped tamp down fury.
Afghan officials helped, too, by quickly paying compensation to the victims' relatives, who are very poor and are part of a culture where "blood money" is regularly paid for even accidental deaths. A high-level delegation brought the money on Tuesday to the village in Panjwai where the massacre happened, drawing an attack by Taliban insurgents.
Still, the speed of the official response does not explain everything. Military officials quickly apologized for the Koran burnings as well, but it seemed to do little to quiet matters.
Mullah Qayoom is surprised that anyone is surprised.
"Humans were sent here to worship and protect religion," he said. "That is what the purpose of a Muslim's life is."
Also, Afghans were very much aware that burning a Koran under American law normally would not be a crime, any more than burning a Bible would be — so those responsible were not going to suffer anything that Afghans would view as appropriate punishment.
In the case of murder, the military does have capital punishment, at least in theory — though no American soldier has ever been sentenced to death for acts committed in Afghanistan, including murders.
"In your laws there is the death penalty, so we are hopeful," Mullah Qayoom said. "With the Koran burning, your people do not even respect your own books, so in the end they will say 'sorry' and the person will be released."
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That Afghans find Koran desecration more distressing does not mean they have been indifferent to the murders, particularly of the children. By now, any Afghan with a computer has seen the victims' cherubic but lifeless visages on Facebook, and the images have been passed around on cellphones. Wrapped in blankets, some look as if they had just fallen asleep — the coverings hide gaping forehead wounds. A toddler in a blood-stained pinafore looks alive at first glance.
The Taliban certainly did their best to instigate a reaction to the Kandahar killings, issuing a broadside within hours calling on local residents to pour into the streets and attack NATO bases.
So far, at least, nothing of the sort has happened. Afghans are quick to recall a proverb: "You give your money away for your life, but you give your life away for your religion." Ahmad Nader Nadery, a human rights activist, said that when the heat of the moment settled, many Afghans would be ready to see the Kandahar massacre as the criminal act of a single individual, particularly because it did not come as part of a military operation.
Perhaps most important, however, is that civilian casualties have long since stopped being the particular province of foreign military forces, who were once responsible for 75 percent of them. Now the Taliban commit 75 percent of them, according to figures by the United Nations and Afghan rights groups. As one American military official said, "When have the Taliban ever apologized for killing?"
This story, "Disconnect clear in US bafflement over two Afghan responses", originally appeared in The New York Times.
I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up. I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2012, 02:43:35 PM
Given the current geopolitical situation in the region, I have a feeling the last significant US and/or Nato troops will end up withdrawing over that exact same box girder bridge*.
Oh and the Krazy Karzi kleptocracy will collapse quicker that a throthing baptist at a snake fondling seance.
* Meanwhile the bridge will remain, perhaps awaiting the next occupiers ?
Let's see if Karzai holds as long as Najibullah and if he meets the same fate.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 01:57:33 AM
I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up. I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...
Welcome to my world.
QuoteREPORTING FROM KABUL, AFGHANISTAN -- In twin blows to American efforts to wage war and negotiate peace in Afghanistan, President Hamid Karzai on Thursday demanded a quicker end to the Western combat mission and a pullback of NATO troops from rural areas, while the Taliban movement declared a suspension of dialogue with the United States.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/03/taliban-reject-talks-afghanistan-karzai-demands-western-pullback.html
We should withdraw within months, not years, if they don't want us there anymore.
I imagine the massacre of villagers must be a fairly regular event in a land of tribal warfare.
Quote from: Tamas on March 15, 2012, 10:26:29 AM
I imagine the massacre of villagers must be a fairly regular event in a land of tribal warfare.
If anything, the Taliban may be pissed that someone beat them to it.
Quotemany Afghans would be ready to see the Kandahar massacre as the criminal act of a single individual, particularly because it did not come as part of a military operation.
This. Even Afghans recognize batshit crazy.
Quote from: Hansmeister on March 15, 2012, 08:33:25 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 01:57:33 AM
I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up. I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...
Welcome to my world.
Maybe you shouldn't be working there then. I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 11:53:40 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on March 15, 2012, 08:33:25 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 01:57:33 AM
I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up. I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...
Welcome to my world.
Maybe you shouldn't be working there then. I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.
Knock it off, Raz. It's Afghanistan. Those fuckers--and Muslims in general--will never be figured out, as they are complete and total polar opposites to our Judeo-Christian, western liberal democratic traditions. Might as well be working with Martians.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 11:53:40 AM
Maybe you shouldn't be working there then. I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.
Eh, not sure respect for the subjects is that helpful when trying to manipulate large groups of people. I suspect many people in marketing and advertising are cynical assholes.
Afghanistan still needs a century or so to be even somewhat compatible with the real world or with better government and way of life. Stoning women for getting raped, honor killings, killing someone for changing religions, killing for burning the Koran, killing gays, and more. They need to come out of the dark age they're in, do some reforms like every other culture, nation and religion has done, if they expect anything better for their lives. I had hoped they could be helped since they'd been in wars, revolts, for a couple of decades. Wanted to see them finally begin some turn around from years of horror. Sadly, I just can't see it happening anytime soon.
For more on Afghanistan, visit your local library and check out the chapter on Afghanistan in PJ O'Rourke's Parliament of Whores. Hilarious stuff.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 15, 2012, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 11:53:40 AM
Maybe you shouldn't be working there then. I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.
Eh, not sure respect for the subjects is that helpful when trying to manipulate large groups of people. I suspect many people in marketing and advertising are cynical assholes.
Contempt for your audience shows through in your work.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 12:29:59 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 15, 2012, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 11:53:40 AM
Maybe you shouldn't be working there then. I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.
Eh, not sure respect for the subjects is that helpful when trying to manipulate large groups of people. I suspect many people in marketing and advertising are cynical assholes.
Contempt for your audience shows through in your work.
Don't think it matters so much when your audience holds you in even more contempt.
I think Hans hold most of us in mild contempt, which is why his arguments suck so much. As opposed to me who loves each and everyone one of you, and has splendid arguments that are elegant, logical, and full of warm feelings and good cheer.
Beer?
My arguments are awesome because I hold myself in contempt. :hmm:
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
I think Hans hold most of us in mild contempt, which is why his arguments suck so much.
It ain't mild. :lol:
I never thought Penetta for a coward.
The message was two-fold and clear: "I don't trust my own people, and I am afraid to die."
Quote from: Siege on March 15, 2012, 05:52:21 PMThe message was two-fold and clear: "I don't trust my own people, and I am afraid to die."
Many people feel they have reasons to continue living, siegy.
Quote from: Siege on March 15, 2012, 05:52:21 PM
I never thought Penetta for a coward.
The message was two-fold and clear: "I don't trust my own people, and I am afraid to die."
Do you go without body armor? Do you ride on the top of the Styker?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 10:20:50 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 15, 2012, 05:52:21 PM
I never thought Penetta for a coward.
The message was two-fold and clear: "I don't trust my own people, and I am afraid to die."
Do you go without body armor? Do you ride on the top of the Styker?
Don't give him any ideas. :unsure: :hmm: Never mind, forget I said that.
Quote from: Jacob on March 15, 2012, 05:57:18 PM
Quote from: Siege on March 15, 2012, 05:52:21 PMThe message was two-fold and clear: "I don't trust my own people, and I am afraid to die."
Many people feel they have reasons to continue living, siegy.
Well, yeah. I do too. But I refuse to live my life in fear of death or pain.
It just doesn't work. From a practical point of view, fear only makes you make mistakes, and thus fail at whatever you are doing.
Anyway, I do feel fear, I just overcome it with determination to accomplish the mission.
As time passes, fear becomes an old friend, always there when the bullets fly.
And if you embrace it, it makes you faster, stronger.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
I think Hans hold most of us in mild contempt, which is why his arguments suck so much. As opposed to me who loves each and everyone one of you, and has splendid arguments that are elegant, logical, and full of warm feelings and good cheer.
I think it's more insecurity. He knows the GOP is now a collection of wackos and outdated fundies. He knows in his heart, that he no longer identifies with them and therefor he is lost.
The dude is a Buckeye. We're in ur villages killin ur d00ds.
Quote from: 11B4V on March 16, 2012, 09:09:02 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 15, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
I think Hans hold most of us in mild contempt, which is why his arguments suck so much. As opposed to me who loves each and everyone one of you, and has splendid arguments that are elegant, logical, and full of warm feelings and good cheer.
I think it's more insecurity. He knows the GOP is now a collection of wackos and outdated fundies. He knows in his heart, that he no longer identifies with them and therefor he is lost.
Yes, Hans knows this. I remember him talking about 32 year cycles of political ascendancy. The GOP was on top in their current cycle. I pointed out that meant his party was big trouble then. He didn't really have an answer for that. At least one I can remember.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-16/robert-bales-said-to-be-suspect-in-afghan-civilian-shootings-1-.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-16/robert-bales-said-to-be-suspect-in-afghan-civilian-shootings-1-.html)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fimage%2FiVJa5kv0hMdA.jpg&hash=f9ccff041142ea64e59b35fbf7329c73292d5bed)
Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, 1st platoon sergeant, Blackhorse Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, in 2011.
He looks mentally retarded and/or psychotic in that picture.
Looks a little like Siege. I guess there is a typical "sergeant" look.
Quote from: Martinus on March 24, 2012, 02:58:53 AM
He looks mentally retarded and/or psychotic in that picture.
To you, of course he does. He's wearing a uniform. You filthy faggot.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 24, 2012, 03:07:41 AM
Looks a little like Siege. I guess there is a typical "sergeant" look.
No he doesn't.
He looks sloppy. His helmet is tilted back, his chin straps are all fucked up, smoke grenade hanging on his chest instead of being secured in a pouch, etc.
The most important thing about that picture is that both him and the guy he is shaking hands with are wearing MILES laser detection gear, meaning the picture was taken somewhere in here during training before deploying. Judging by terrain and buildings I would say somewhere in the NTC (national training center).
He kind of looks like Michael Dukakis.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24ahead.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fmichael-dukakis-tank.jpg%3F1243121099&hash=fd78437ac3706d54e74ae27349011b54150fdd78)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 25, 2012, 02:11:16 AM
He kind of looks like Michael Dukakis.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24ahead.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fmichael-dukakis-tank.jpg%3F1243121099&hash=fd78437ac3706d54e74ae27349011b54150fdd78)
I am not sure if you are being serious - these two look nothing like each other at all.
Squat build, square head, big nose, bushy eyebrows, pinkish skin, helmet.
Yeah. For one thing, he looks much less ridiculous than Dukakis.
I agree with PW that he looks presidential.
the real problem is of course that he just slaughtered 16 people. Now if he had killed 16.000.000 (don't know where he'd find the time though) he could now be running for president in one of those god-forsaken countries.
It appears now it was 17 people.
Or perhaps the afghanis inflated the numbers to get more compensation money, or "blood money" as they call it.
Quote from: Siege on March 26, 2012, 05:50:34 PM
It appears now it was 17 people.
Or perhaps the afghanis inflated the numbers to get more compensation money, or "blood money" as they call it.
So is this what you plan to do when you say things like "I want all Muslims to die"? Shoot 13 kids?
'Three NATO soldiers were shot to death today in two separate confrontations involving Afghan security forces, adding to a string of "green on blue" killings that have complicated the relationship between Afghanistan and its Western allies.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/world/asia/unborn-afghan-child-said-to-be-17th-victim-of-killing-spree.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/world/asia/unborn-afghan-child-said-to-be-17th-victim-of-killing-spree.html)
QuoteIn southern Helmand Province, an Afghan National Army soldier turned his weapon on British soldiers, killing two of them.
...
Also, the international military command in Afghanistan reported that one of its soldiers had been shot to death by an "alleged member of the Afghan local police" as members of the International Security Assistance Force approached a police checkpoint. An ISAF press release gave no further details and did not identify the nationality of the victim.
Quote from: Phillip V on March 26, 2012, 07:14:05 PM
'Three NATO soldiers were shot to death today in two separate confrontations involving Afghan security forces, adding to a string of "green on blue" killings that have complicated the relationship between Afghanistan and its Western allies.'
Frigging mad dogs. There's been no hope for Afghanistan, sadly for them. They're doomed to live in horror and despotic government for decades to come.
Its going to be fun to work with the Afghans when we deploy.
I wonder if I can still smell danger like I used to be.
"Smelling danger" is the art of listening to your subscouncious mind.
Every time I feel something is wrong, something is wrong.
But you have to be able to separate the signals your subcouncious picks up from your natural suspicions.
So you going to butcher some kids or what?
I don't butcher. I combat terrorists while operating under the Rules of Engagement issued to me by my chain of command, and I enforce those rules whithin my unit.
Presumably so did Sgt. Bales.
Quote from: Siege on March 26, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
Its going to be fun to work with the Afghans when we deploy.
I wonder if I can still smell danger like I used to be.
"Smelling danger" is the art of listening to your subscouncious mind.
Every time I feel something is wrong, something is wrong.
But you have to be able to separate the signals your subcouncious picks up from your natural suspicions.
'The United States Navy has started a program to investigate how members of the military can be trained to improve their "sixth sense," or intuitive ability, during combat and other missions.
The idea for the project comes in large part from the testimony of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who have reported an unexplained feeling of danger just before they encountered an enemy attack or ran into an improvised explosive device, Navy scientists said.'
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/navy-program-to-study-how-troops-use-intuition/
And I thought that the sixth sense was proprioception.
Quote from: Phillip V on March 27, 2012, 05:25:54 PM
'The United States Navy has started a program to investigate how members of the military can be trained to improve their "sixth sense," or intuitive ability, during combat and other missions.
The idea for the project comes in large part from the testimony of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who have reported an unexplained feeling of danger just before they encountered an enemy attack or ran into an improvised explosive device, Navy scientists said.'
The only sixth sense a sailor needs in the Navy is knowing when a Marine is staring at his ass.
Trick question. Answer is always.