Having previously ignored the total war series, I recently bought and started playing Total War: Shogun 2. It's pretty good.
How do the other games in the series compare? Are there any of them, or expansions, that are particularly good?
In Shogun 2 I'm on the cusp of taking Kyoto and finishing my first campaign on one of the easier starting positions. I kludged along okay with the economy, dicked around a bit with the various agents - I'm certainly not efficient in their use, but I get along okay. I can reliably get decisive victories against opponents who outnumber me a bit (I haven't fought any battles where I was badly outnumbered yet); I presume that's not particularly impressive.
Does anyone have any tips - on battlefield tactics, on economic management, how to get the best out of the agents? On how to get my damn soldiers to march across the battlefield and keep their fucking formation? So far that seems to be the hardest part of the game.
Shogun 2 is good. I found the "Realm Divide" bullshit though and so I started playing with "the Rights of Man" mod which was great.
I prefer Napoleon: Total War over Empire but have only played vanilla so mods might change which of those is better overall.
I know nothing of the different mods... for any of the Total War games. What are the good ones? What does the Rights of Man mod do?
Some good suggestions about older TW games here: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6044.0.html (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,6044.0.html)
I've only played enough of Rome to say that's great fun, the others are still almost terra incognita to me.
Have fun, it's a great series
L.
Quote from: Jacob on February 21, 2012, 05:27:12 PM
I know nothing of the different mods... for any of the Total War games. What are the good ones? What does the Rights of Man mod do?
From TWCenter Wiki it says Rights of Man does the following (but I find that pretty vague, I was skeptical when I downloaded it but after playing it I was impressed):
Increased game length: short campaign ends 1590, long campaign 1620 and domination campaign 1640
Added additional garrison troops to the archery dojo, yari drill yard and sword school building lines
Fixed a vanilla problem with the Rice Exchange, the Merchant Guild and the Kanbukama: Since they reduce the food surplus that otherwise provides a growth bonus in EVERY province you own, they create a negative income curve on the long run if you own many provinces. The mod adds a global growth bonus to compensate for the loss of the global food related growth. The local growth bonus was reduced.
Adjusted many building effects regarding units (Thanks to 'crazyman fromrussia' for his suggestions!)
Reduced the global agent success penalty for the player from -10 to -5
Made survival skill of the monk more usefull
The AI will use their monks more offensively.
The AI has a higher agent cap for ninjas and metsukes (+1 each) to spice up agent gameplay (in my games the player is too dominant) (new campaign only)
Several improvements to the CAI of the "monk" factions (Uesugi; Ikko Ikki): better build orders and better tech selection ( they are now able to recruit monk units)
Additional scripted help for AI Shimazu and AI Uesugi to increase their survival chance
Added a description to thenew Daimyo trait and chnaged some units names.
Attack by Fire is needed to enable fire by rank for matchlock units
Total War games are really frustrating. They have so much potential, and yet usually are so poorly implemented. And Creative Arts is no Paradox, they don't exactly go crazy patching up the initial releases. I have sworn off buying Total War games for good, unless it's Medieval TW 3, and the reviews that are not paid for are excellent.
I still think Medieval I and its expansion is better than the newer ones. The province maps make for a faster game than the current bloat maps.
Plus the viking expansion is faboo.
I am kind of confused by the distinction between Empire and Napoleons TW games.
I liked Rome Total War, with the strategic part and stuff, which of those is more like that?
Empire felt bleh. Plus had the India shit, which was fun as the Indians but was a chore as the Europeans.
Nappy has sort of the flavor of the Napoleonic wars, but the battles fall flat. It just don't feel right.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 21, 2012, 07:23:30 PM
Plus the viking expansion is faboo.
IMO that's the best Total War game/expansion. My second favorite is M:TW2 when you conquer Mexico from the Aztecs.
If they would have done a viking expansion for #2, I would have creamed my pants.
I had a riot with Empire and Rome but found Medieval lackluster.
I always try to get the enemy to attack. It is much easier on the defensive. Then it is always the same in all Total war games. Pick high ground. Form defensive line. Wait for enemy to come. Soften them up with ranged weapons. Infantry hold the centre. Cavalry flank enemy. Roll up enemy line. Pursuit.
I played Med 1 and 2 and Rome Total war. Loved them all.
I'd really like it if they made a Rome II.
Quote from: Jaron on February 22, 2012, 02:56:57 AM
I'd really like it if they made a Rome II.
Without flaming pigs.
Quote from: Jacob on February 21, 2012, 05:03:21 PM
Having previously ignored the total war series, I recently bought and started playing Total War: Shogun 2. It's pretty good.
How do the other games in the series compare? Are there any of them, or expansions, that are particularly good?
In Shogun 2 I'm on the cusp of taking Kyoto and finishing my first campaign on one of the easier starting positions. I kludged along okay with the economy, dicked around a bit with the various agents - I'm certainly not efficient in their use, but I get along okay. I can reliably get decisive victories against opponents who outnumber me a bit (I haven't fought any battles where I was badly outnumbered yet); I presume that's not particularly impressive.
Does anyone have any tips - on battlefield tactics, on economic management, how to get the best out of the agents? On how to get my damn soldiers to march across the battlefield and keep their fucking formation? So far that seems to be the hardest part of the game.
Shogun is the most polished one, it shows. They've really refined the mechanics of the game.
Empire: Total War is really nice with DarthMod Empire. However, it does lack some game mechanics like attrition... so that means you can happilly conquer Russia without problem. But still fun if you like the colonia era. If you hate that historical period, it's pointless to play.
Napoleon was really good and really fun. I've had a bit difficulties completing my objectives in the alloted time though, and the campaigns are kinda small. And you're limited to Europe (Italy, Egypt/Middle-East, Europe, Grand Campaign). Something I didn't like. I wanted to Conquer the Americas with Nappy, alas, it was not possible.
Now Shogun... It's a really nice game, but this Japan stuff... it's not for me. I don't derive the same pleasure slaughtering Japanese samuraïs as I do slaughtering Red Coats.
So I was on the cusp of winning my first campaign last night. I have 24 provinces, out of the 25 needed. The 25th needs to be Kyoto, and I'm on the doorstep with my main army and my secondary army.
The Shogunate has a sizeable field army blocking access, with in reinforcement distance of the really big army inside the city walls of Kyoto. I figure, I attack the field army with my primary army, having put my own secondary army within reinforcement distance. With any luck, I'll draw out the big army and crush the combined forces of the Shogunate in the field before marching triumphantly into Kyoto.
So I make my moves and end my turn. Sure enough, they take my bait and come out. I look at the numbers and units. The shogun is fielding more samurai than most the armies I've fought so far, he's got a fair bit more cavalry than I do, he's got more archers as well and he outnumbers me by about 10% when all forces are on the field. Should be an exciting battle.
I deploy and slowly advance towards the smaller (at the moment) shogun forces. I swing across the battlefield, aligning my left flank to receive the expected reinforcements from my secondary army (the expected point of entry is marked with a blue arrow). The shogun's forces stay pretty much stationary, waiting for the reinforcements from Kyoto (the bulk of the shogun army). I figure I can't make it across the field before the reinforcements arrive given my dearth of cavalry.
Two things happen. Or rather, one thing happens - the shogun's main army arrives and the combined force moves backwards to take up a position on a wooded hill in the far corner of the field; and another thing doesn't happen - my second army never shows up at all. I wait. And I wait. I press the super fast forward button and I wait. My guys never show up and the shogun never moves.
So I try baiting him out with my one unit of mounted archers. I do manage to get one measly unit of yari ashigaru to charge out of the hill and towards my main line where I pepper it with arrows and run it over with my two other cavalry units once the ashigaru turn to run. But that's it. No matter what I do, I can't induce any more of those fuckers to come down from the hill... and it's not like I'm going to charge up that hill, through the woods at superior forces that I can't see the disposition of.
Annoying.
Quote from: Berkut on February 21, 2012, 09:44:44 PM
I am kind of confused by the distinction between Empire and Napoleons TW games.
I liked Rome Total War, with the strategic part and stuff, which of those is more like that?
Napoleon is more like Rome, Empire like Medieval. I prefer Empire, because of the naval game (even though the AI is crap at naval combat tactics, give it enough ships and it can do well enough). Empire with Napoleon's granularity would be terrific. Unfortunately, CA made sure that maps after Medieval could not be modded, so modding is limited to units, AI, and textures.
Quote from: Jacob on February 22, 2012, 11:15:04 AM
So I try baiting him out with my one unit of mounted archers. I do manage to get one measly unit of yari ashigaru to charge out of the hill and towards my main line where I pepper it with arrows and run it over with my two other cavalry units once the ashigaru turn to run. But that's it. No matter what I do, I can't induce any more of those fuckers to come down from the hill... and it's not like I'm going to charge up that hill, through the woods at superior forces that I can't see the disposition of.
Annoying.
Yes it is annoying. My solution is to reduce the size of my army on the strategic map. If the AI has a clear numerical advantage (more than 10% difference), it will attack on the tactical map. The tactical AI is so bad that the human can usually win even with a numerical disadvantage. The key is to get them to attack on the tactical map.
But...if you are on the verge of victory, then by all means launch an all out assault. The reason why I strongly prefer defensive battles is because they tend to result in lower casualties. Since you are almost there, feel free to sacrifice your guys :sleep:
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 21, 2012, 09:56:42 PM
If they would have done a viking expansion for #2, I would have creamed my pants.
That would've been OSSUM.
So I picked Shogun 2 up due to the Steam sale and was messing around with it last night. Major graphical improvements over even Empire.
The tutorial is pretty boring, so I quit it like halfway through. Can someone tell me what the significant differences are between this game and Empire?
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2012, 06:29:42 AM
So I picked Shogun 2 up due to the Steam sale and was messing around with it last night. Major graphical improvements over even Empire.
The tutorial is pretty boring, so I quit it like halfway through. Can someone tell me what the significant differences are between this game and Empire?
It takes place in Japan.
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2012, 06:29:42 AM
Can someone tell me what the significant differences are between this game and Empire?
Realm Divide. As soon as you have X number of provinces (I can't remember the number, 12 or something?) everyone declares war on you. I think it's bullshit but there are mods that fix it.
So what do we know of the 19th century version coming out tomorrow?
lol, nice intro, that's for sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZoh0lQFiA&feature=player_embedded#!
the jews linked there will sell you the steam code of the special edition (one extra faction, meh) for $27
So far, so good (Shogun 2, not the xpac). Playing a long campaign as the Satsuma guys.
Quote from: Tamas on March 22, 2012, 04:24:43 PM
lol, nice intro, that's for sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZoh0lQFiA&feature=player_embedded#!
the jews linked there will sell you the steam code of the special edition (one extra faction, meh) for $27
The intro is like Lettow's dreams going up in smoke. A wonderful message of the triumph of industrial capitalism over feudal romanticism.
Quote from: Tamas on March 22, 2012, 04:24:43 PM
lol, nice intro, that's for sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZoh0lQFiA&feature=player_embedded#!
the jews linked there will sell you the steam code of the special edition (one extra faction, meh) for $27
That video is pretty awesome.
They're good but take too long to play. Moving all the little pieces on the map every turn grows old and the time between turns and all that battles.....it drags.
Very few games have I managed to finish.
Agree with Tyr. I actually don't really care that much for the tactical part of the game - would much rather have some much simpler tactical combat system. But I like the strategic part.
Yeah, I agree. The tactical part is cool, and is really the heart of the game, and the campaign is just a way to link those tactical battles in a logical way. However, they get repetetive pretty quickly, and strategic part is the really interesting part (unless it's fucked up royally, which it often is in TW games).
I was always so disappointed in the strategic level of play. You feel proud of yourself for coming up with a clever strategy only to find that the AI is so dumb it really doesn't matter. It's like running your best 100 meter dash ever only to find out your opponent was brain dead paraplegic. For instance in Empire I built up an army for the invasion of Poland and marched in only to find that the Polish AI came up with the brilliant strategy of building 15 bishops to hold back my crack troops. This turned out to be an effective strategy since I couldn't kill the bishops and they would pace back and forth every round. This took for ever to play out and I got so damn tired of it I quit.
btw there's a big patch out for Shogun today (on Steam at least).
Picked up Shogun 2 again for hours of gameplay with my roommate. We stayed up all night drinking tea. You can play with old shogun against the new expansion which a ton of people bought, so most of the evening saw us trying to drive back the forces of modernity. The roommate grouses that the 19th-century armies are easier to use and that balance skews in their favour, but I disagree. I respect his opinion too much to say he is wrong or not report it, however, so there it is.
Here are my findings:
White/Red/Black Bear Infantry, quite competent line troops of the western rebels, are ubiquitous and tend to be in every modern player's army. They are a bit more expensive than the average line infantryman, with better morale and combat capability. With bayonets, line infantry have bonuses against cavalry, and their morale is somewhere between a peasant and samurai's. In terms of what is cost effective, they absolutely destroy katana samurai. Yari and Naginata samurai naturally even more so.
Bow ashigaru and loan-sword ashigaru will cost-for-cost win it for you, but their use is quite brittle owing to their morale. Some type of cavalry is desirable- nothing that invested too heavily in armour that won't do it any good. I find Naginata Monk Cavalry to be the best, as it is less dependent on the charge (you really don't want to pull out to expose yourself to fire..) and has a high morale that allows them to withstand the devestation of a gunline without bolting.
When using cavalry against a fall of the samurai army, being able to get the charge off before they can fire (which takes some time) is important. It is doable, but difficult- be mindful of their cone of fire and how maneuvarable you are. With enough peasants on the field, they can't fire at everything. (It is highly recommended you get a leadership-oriented general because of the hordes you'll be fielding.) I think but have not yet verified that naginata warrior monks may be worth it.
From the perspective of someone combating anti-modernity tactics, as a modernity player, I would advocate:
Take spear levies. Cavalry is a problem, and you only really need to be able to hold off peasants anyway.
Even more than that, take lancers. They can run down the enemy cavalry, get a good bonus vs horses, and can route the archers you'll face. Armies fighting a modern force have less incentive to take spearmen because there is much less emphasize on cavalry and spearmen are slow low-morale bricks that die to volleys, and you can take advantage of this.
Finally, I think the white tiger force and other cheaply costed men-of-the-line are vastly underused. In fire they'll do about as well, and they survive arrows just as well as their costlier alternatives. The close combat comes up less than you'd think, and there's no reason you can't have a few capable men for that express purpose if you must.
The jumble of fall of the samurai, rise of the samurai, and generic shogun units has given the multiplayer scene a fresh lease on life. It is interesting and fun again, and I look forward to logging lots of hours into it.
Edit: it goes without saying I am an old blind master and will easily dispatch any of you pathetic people who have jobs and social responsibilities that keep you from being the uncrowned emperor autist of shogun 2 multiplayer, should you have the hubris to assume my assessments have any but the highest of validity.
What a piece of bug-ridden shit this game has become since the last time I played it. It freezes up like every 5 turns, sometimes after a battle the strategic map comes back as all-sea and I have to reload. It did none of this crap some months ago.
That just means a Tsunami has struck while you were fighting a battle.
Sun Tzu says: fight the enemy, not the battle.
I fought a stack of doom of the AI controlled Takeda. Led by Takeda Shingen, their best general, who had like 5 or 6 stars. All the units had tons of experience.
My main army was in South Shinano. They attacked the castle with a separate half stack. I defeated it in the siege battle, then retreated toward Mino while gathering reinforcements. Seeing that Shingen had more stars in the attack, I attacked him.
The battle was bizarre. Half their army were archers, and the AI placed them in front. I attacked with my spear ashigaru. Because the archers were so experienced, they fought my ashigaru to a standstill. The most amazing part was that their spear units watched the slaughter without participating. They kept walking sideways and switching positions *just* behind the the main battle.
I lost the battle but I succeeded in destroying half the stack of doom. I combined the remnants with more raw recruits, and the computer attacked next turn with the remaining spear units. My entire army was almost completely destroyed. Only the general and 4 guys escaped. But I also killed Shingen. Their stack of doom only had 3-4 half strength units left.
Well, I put in over 20 more hours since time of last writing.
Still the autistic master of multiplayer, but my roommate was right (such arrogance that I thought to doubt him..) about the Fall of the Samurai players having access to much, much stronger armies. I couldn't be sure until I got it myself and have seen things from the other side. There is no reason to lose to someone with an old army.
Line combat multiplayer finally exists, for those who'd be fans of it. It is an entertaining game, and they have done interesting things with the (long-suffering) naval combat as well. This was a worthwhile expansion.
Now, where's one covering the invasion of Korea? There are inferior peoples to subjugate.
Quote from: DGuller on March 23, 2012, 04:40:07 PM
Yeah, I agree. The tactical part is cool, and is really the heart of the game, and the campaign is just a way to link those tactical battles in a logical way. However, they get repetetive pretty quickly, and strategic part is the really interesting part (unless it's fucked up royally, which it often is in TW games).
Yep, the tactical battles are the entire point of the game, the strategic part is just an added extra....which is why I just can't skip the tactical battles.
That and the AI being unrepdictable and often giving you silly casualties for easy mop ups.
Nonetheless despite my historic problems with the games...I am tempted to get Shogun 2. The menus are just so pretty.
Is there some sort of pack with the original and expansion together?
Quote from: Tyr on March 30, 2012, 01:25:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 23, 2012, 04:40:07 PM
Yeah, I agree. The tactical part is cool, and is really the heart of the game, and the campaign is just a way to link those tactical battles in a logical way. However, they get repetetive pretty quickly, and strategic part is the really interesting part (unless it's fucked up royally, which it often is in TW games).
Yep, the tactical battles are the entire point of the game, the strategic part is just an added extra....which is why I just can't skip the tactical battles.
That and the AI being unrepdictable and often giving you silly casualties for easy mop ups.
Nonetheless despite my historic problems with the games...I am tempted to get Shogun 2. The menus are just so pretty.
Is there some sort of pack with the original and expansion together?
The expansion is stand-alone, no need to buy the original at all.
But what if you want to play in the earlier era?
there was a great sale recently. I'd advocate waiting, unless you really must have it immediately.
Fall of the Samurai, on the other hand, I doubt will get a sale any time in the near future.
Quote from: Tyr on March 31, 2012, 10:13:37 PM
But what if you want to play in the earlier era?
My understanding of "stand-alone" is that you get everything from the original game when you buy the expansion.
The fact that Lettuce and Tyr are confused makes me pretty sure I am right.
Quote from: sbr on April 01, 2012, 12:32:31 AM
My understanding of "stand-alone" is that you get everything from the original game when you buy the expansion.
Game mechanics wise yes, but not the scenarios. There's been similar standalone expansions for other games, though they're pretty rare these days.
Stand alone normally means it doesn't include everything from the original.
If it did then they would advertise it as the original + the expansion to make people aware that they are pretty much getting 2 games for the price of 1.
Quote from: grumbler on February 22, 2012, 03:29:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 21, 2012, 09:44:44 PM
I am kind of confused by the distinction between Empire and Napoleons TW games.
I liked Rome Total War, with the strategic part and stuff, which of those is more like that?
Napoleon is more like Rome, Empire like Medieval. I prefer Empire, because of the naval game (even though the AI is crap at naval combat tactics, give it enough ships and it can do well enough). Empire with Napoleon's granularity would be terrific. Unfortunately, CA made sure that maps after Medieval could not be modded, so modding is limited to units, AI, and textures.
Yep, the naval game alone almost makes Empire worth the price; however, the fact that they never fixed the "fortress repair bug" that settlements suffer from was probably the last nail in the Total War coffin for me. At least concerning my possible purchase of succeeding games in the series, anyway; even after years of play I still enjoy dipping into the various Mods for Rome and Medieval II.