Total War

[Berkut]

Agree with Tyr. I actually don't really care that much for the tactical part of the game - would much rather have some much simpler tactical combat system. But I like the strategic part.

[DGuller]

Yeah, I agree.  The tactical part is cool, and is really the heart of the game, and the campaign is just a way to link those tactical battles in a logical way.  However, they get repetetive pretty quickly, and strategic part is the really interesting part (unless it's fucked up royally, which it often is in TW games).

[Razgovory]

I was always so disappointed in the strategic level of play.  You feel proud of yourself for coming up with a clever strategy only to find that the AI is so dumb it really doesn't matter.  It's like running your best 100 meter dash ever only to find out your opponent was brain dead paraplegic. For instance in Empire I built up an army for the invasion of Poland and marched in only to find that the Polish AI came up with the brilliant strategy of building 15 bishops to hold back my crack troops.  This turned out to be an effective strategy since I couldn't kill the bishops and they would pace back and forth every round.  This took for ever to play out and I got so damn tired of it I quit.

[Caliga]

btw there's a big patch out for Shogun today (on Steam at least).

[Lettow77]

 Picked up Shogun 2 again for hours of gameplay with my roommate. We stayed up all night drinking tea. You can play with old shogun against the new expansion which a ton of people bought, so most of the evening saw us trying to drive back the forces of modernity. The roommate grouses that the 19th-century armies are easier to use and that balance skews in their favour, but I disagree. I respect his opinion too much to say he is wrong or not report it, however, so there it is.

Here are my findings:

White/Red/Black Bear Infantry, quite competent line troops of the western rebels, are ubiquitous and tend to be in every modern player's army. They are a bit more expensive than the average line infantryman, with better morale and combat capability. With bayonets, line infantry have bonuses against cavalry, and their morale is somewhere between a peasant and samurai's. In terms of what is cost effective, they absolutely destroy katana samurai. Yari and Naginata samurai naturally even more so.

Bow ashigaru and loan-sword ashigaru will cost-for-cost win it for you, but their use is quite brittle owing to their morale. Some type of cavalry is desirable- nothing that invested too heavily in armour that won't do it any good. I find Naginata Monk Cavalry to be the best, as it is less dependent on the charge (you really don't want to pull out to expose yourself to fire..) and has a high morale that allows them to withstand the devestation of a gunline without bolting.

When using cavalry against a fall of the samurai army, being able to get the charge off before they can fire (which takes some time) is important. It is doable, but difficult- be mindful of their cone of fire and how maneuvarable you are. With enough peasants on the field, they can't fire at everything. (It is highly recommended you get a leadership-oriented general because of the hordes you'll be fielding.) I think but have not yet verified that naginata warrior monks may be worth it.

From the perspective of someone combating anti-modernity tactics, as a modernity player, I would advocate:
Take spear levies. Cavalry is a problem, and you only really need to be able to hold off peasants anyway.
Even more than that, take lancers. They can run down the enemy cavalry, get a good bonus vs horses, and can route the archers you'll face. Armies fighting a modern force have less incentive to take spearmen because there is much less emphasize on cavalry and spearmen are slow low-morale bricks that die to volleys, and you can take advantage of this. 

Finally, I think the white tiger force and other cheaply costed men-of-the-line are vastly underused. In fire they'll do about as well, and they survive arrows just as well as their costlier alternatives. The close combat comes up less than you'd think, and there's no reason you can't have a few capable men for that express purpose if you must.

The jumble of fall of the samurai, rise of the samurai, and generic shogun units has given the multiplayer scene a fresh lease on life. It is interesting and fun again, and I look forward to logging lots of hours into it.

Edit: it goes without saying I am an old blind master and will easily dispatch any of you pathetic people who have jobs and social responsibilities that keep you from being the uncrowned emperor autist of shogun 2 multiplayer, should you have the hubris to assume my assessments have any but the highest of validity.

[Tamas]

What a piece of bug-ridden shit this game has become since the last time I played it. It freezes up like every 5 turns, sometimes after a battle the strategic map comes back as all-sea and I have to reload. It did none of this crap some months ago.

[Razgovory]

That just means a Tsunami has struck while you were fighting a battle.

[The Brain]

Sun Tzu says: fight the enemy, not the battle.

[Monoriu]

I fought a stack of doom of the AI controlled Takeda.  Led by Takeda Shingen, their best general, who had like 5 or 6 stars.  All the units had tons of experience. 

My main army was in South Shinano.  They attacked the castle with a separate half stack.  I defeated it in the siege battle, then retreated toward Mino while gathering reinforcements.  Seeing that Shingen had more stars in the attack, I attacked him. 

The battle was bizarre.  Half their army were archers, and the AI placed them in front.  I attacked with my spear ashigaru.  Because the archers were so experienced, they fought my ashigaru to a standstill.  The most amazing part was that their spear units watched the slaughter without participating.  They kept walking sideways and switching positions *just* behind the the main battle. 

I lost the battle but I succeeded in destroying half the stack of doom.  I combined the remnants with more raw recruits, and the computer attacked next turn with the remaining spear units.  My entire army was almost completely destroyed.  Only the general and 4 guys escaped.  But I also killed Shingen.  Their stack of doom only had 3-4 half strength units left. 

[Lettow77]

 Well, I put in over 20 more hours since time of last writing.

Still the autistic master of multiplayer, but my roommate was right (such arrogance that I thought to doubt him..) about the Fall of the Samurai players having access to much, much stronger armies. I couldn't be sure until I got it myself and have seen things from the other side. There is no reason to lose to someone with an old army.

Line combat multiplayer finally exists, for those who'd be fans of it. It is an entertaining game, and they have done interesting things with the (long-suffering) naval combat as well. This was a worthwhile expansion.

Now, where's one covering the invasion of Korea? There are inferior peoples to subjugate.

[Josquius]

Yeah, I agree.  The tactical part is cool, and is really the heart of the game, and the campaign is just a way to link those tactical battles in a logical way.  However, they get repetetive pretty quickly, and strategic part is the really interesting part (unless it's fucked up royally, which it often is in TW games).

Yep, the tactical battles are the entire point of the game, the strategic part is just an added extra....which is why I just can't skip the tactical battles.

That and the AI being unrepdictable and often giving you silly casualties for easy mop ups.


Nonetheless despite my historic problems with the games...I am tempted to get Shogun 2. The menus are just so pretty.
Is there some sort of pack with the original and expansion together?

[sbr]

Yeah, I agree.  The tactical part is cool, and is really the heart of the game, and the campaign is just a way to link those tactical battles in a logical way.  However, they get repetetive pretty quickly, and strategic part is the really interesting part (unless it's fucked up royally, which it often is in TW games).

Yep, the tactical battles are the entire point of the game, the strategic part is just an added extra....which is why I just can't skip the tactical battles.

That and the AI being unrepdictable and often giving you silly casualties for easy mop ups.


Nonetheless despite my historic problems with the games...I am tempted to get Shogun 2. The menus are just so pretty.
Is there some sort of pack with the original and expansion together?

The expansion is stand-alone, no need to buy the original at all.

[Josquius]

But what if you want to play in the earlier era?

[Lettow77]

 there was a great sale recently. I'd advocate waiting, unless you really must have it immediately.

Fall of the Samurai, on the other hand, I doubt will get a sale any time in the near future.

[sbr]

But what if you want to play in the earlier era?

My understanding of "stand-alone" is that you get everything from the original game when you buy the expansion. 

The fact that Lettuce and Tyr are confused makes me pretty sure I am right.