http://granma.cu/ingles/cuba-i/14mar-Agreement.html
Here is a long-winded Cuban governemtn release from last March which re-pegs the Convertible Peso to the US Dollar at one-to-one. The Convertible Peso, in short, is the currency used in the tourism industry. When I go to Cuban hotels, I buy the Cuban Convertible Peso at 1-1 to the US dollar.
It is the last paragraph in that statment I find interesting:
This decision does not affect the current exchange rate of the Cuban peso in relation to the convertible peso in CADECA outlets, which remains set at 24 Cuban pesos for operations covering the sale by the population of convertible pesos, and 25 Cuban pesos for operations covering the purchase by the population of convertible pesos. Nor does it modify the official exchange rate of the Cuban peso against the convertible peso utilized in state sector accounting, which establishes that one Cuban peso is equal to one convertible peso.
In other words, officially one Cuban peso=one convertible peso. But, in practice...well, that's not quite what we're saying.
Bottom line is Cubans are paid the equivalent of $5 a month unless they want to buy something with it.
Link is slower than dirt. Must be at least 3 or 4 other Languishites bogging down the server in Havana :D
It's byproduct of a hybrid central planning economy with some market reforms.
The regular Peso is effectively government-issued scrip for the purchase and sale of goods produced within the traditional centrally-planned command economy. For internal accounting puposes the Cuban government treats these as 1 Peso to $1. It's basically arbitrary - they could just as well as treat as 2 Pesos to $1 or 10 Pesos to $1 or 1 Peso to $10. the only impact relates to the degree of distortion created and incentive to try to arbitrage with the CUP where possible.
The CUP is government-issued scrip that reflects foreign currency reserves and is set at $1 - it is like a Cuban government version of an Amex traveller's check. It exists to control foreign exchange within the country and keep it out of non-government hands. It is also a tool to extract a massive tax from tourists and foreign investors.
The 24/25-1 conversion ratio reflects the government's rough guess at what a market rate of exchange would be. It alllows Cubans to access foreign goods that otherwise would not be supplied through the command economy, albeit at the cost of paying full market prices.
Maybe we can invite some Cuban accountants to help us fix the Greece situation? :P
Thanks MM. Always wondered how that worked.
Good job Josephus.
Keep helping perpetuate a ditactorship and the suffering of a poor people.
At least they're suffering less under Castro than they would under a free democracy.
Quote from: Siege on February 16, 2012, 10:16:31 PM
Good job Josephus.
Keep helping perpetuate a ditactorship and the suffering of a poor people.
Because embargo is working out so well. Any year now.
Quote from: DGuller on February 17, 2012, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 16, 2012, 10:16:31 PM
Good job Josephus.
Keep helping perpetuate a ditactorship and the suffering of a poor people.
Because embargo is working out so well. Any year now.
Yeah, Castro is awful but our embargo has been more harmful to the Cuban people and has done more to keep them in poverty than Castro has. Hate to say it, but it's true.
Codswallop.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 01:53:03 PM
Yeah, Castro is awful but our embargo has been more harmful to the Cuban people and has done more to keep them in poverty than Castro has. Hate to say it, but it's true.
I don't hate to say it. The embargo is just hilariously counter-productive and idiotic policy, kept in place by intertia decades after its original purpose has past. I would be really upset by it but there are so many similar things being done by the Feds.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 01:53:03 PM
Yeah, Castro is awful but our embargo has been more harmful to the Cuban people and has done more to keep them in poverty than Castro has. Hate to say it, but it's true.
How would their lives be much different?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 17, 2012, 01:53:41 PM
Codswallop.
You are so right. It was totally logical we took North Korea off the list and left Cuba on since North Korea is so freedom loving and so much less dangerous than Cuba.
Quote from: derspiess on February 17, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
How would their lives be much different?
So the embargo makes no difference at all and has no effect? Then not only is it idiotic it is impotent and pointless as well.
Quote from: Valmy on February 17, 2012, 01:58:42 PM
You are so right. It was totally logical we took North Korea off the list and left Cuba on since North Korea is so freedom loving and so much less dangerous than Cuba.
Dude, if you're going to quote me you should at least make an effort to post something that has some kind of relation to mine and/or the one I was responding to.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 17, 2012, 02:00:41 PM
Dude, if you're going to quote me you should at least make an effort to post something that has some kind of relation to mine and/or the one I was responding to.
Oh come on we have discussed this a billion times. I know what your talking points are.
In any case do I really have to? The idea that a major economic embargo has no negative effects on people's lives is pretty absurd.
Quote from: Valmy on February 17, 2012, 02:01:46 PM
Oh come on we have discussed this a billion times. I know what your talking points are.
What the hell does this have to do with anything? fahdiz said the embargo has hurt the Cuban economy more than Castro's policies. I called bullshit. What does anything you posted after that have to do with this subject?
Quote from: derspiess on February 17, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 01:53:03 PM
Yeah, Castro is awful but our embargo has been more harmful to the Cuban people and has done more to keep them in poverty than Castro has. Hate to say it, but it's true.
How would their lives be much different?
They wouldn't be quite as in the dark about some of the alternatives to living under Castro, for one thing. Look at what blue jeans did in the Soviet Union.
Quote from: derspiess on February 17, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 01:53:03 PM
Yeah, Castro is awful but our embargo has been more harmful to the Cuban people and has done more to keep them in poverty than Castro has. Hate to say it, but it's true.
How would their lives be much different?
For one? Access to trans atlantic telecommunications cable much earlier. Chavez was nice enough to build one last year.
Access to fresher food products from the US instead of from Europe/South America.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 17, 2012, 02:13:59 PM
For one? Access to trans atlantic telecommunications cable much earlier. Chavez was nice enough to build one last year.
Access to fresher food products from the US instead of from Europe/South America.
How is the embargo affecting Cuba's ability to lay cable to Europe?
Cuba can already import food (and medicine) from the US. They just have to pay cash.
The biggest impact is obviously tourism.
Please describe for me - and this is not a leading question - the benefit provided to the United States by continued embargo of Cuba.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 02:28:21 PM
Please describe for me - and this is not a leading question - the benefit provided to the United States by continued embargo of Cuba.
The principal ones that come to mind are to emphasize the negative consequences of uncompensated asset appropriation and to provide a bargaining chip for liberalization.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 17, 2012, 02:13:59 PM
For one? Access to trans atlantic telecommunications cable much earlier. Chavez was nice enough to build one last year.
Okay, stupid question. How much difference does that make for the average Cuban?
QuoteAccess to fresher food products from the US instead of from Europe/South America.
To add to what Yi said, IIRC the US is Cuba's top food supplier.
Quote from: Siege on February 16, 2012, 10:16:31 PM
Good job Josephus.
Keep helping perpetuate a ditactorship and the suffering of a poor people.
All I did was link to a Cuban newspaper article about their odd accounting practices vis-a-vis the manipulation of their peso. :huh:
But once you got this going. I agree. One day the Cuban dictatorship will fall and the Cuban people will be as rich and free as...well, Haitians maybe.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 17, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
The principal ones that come to mind are to emphasize the negative consequences of uncompensated asset appropriation
So to drive that one home, we are punishing...the Cuban people?
Quoteand to provide a bargaining chip for liberalization.
How's that been working for us?
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 03:49:24 PM
So to drive that one home, we are punishing...the Cuban people?
I don't understand the ... ellipses. The Cuban state expropriated US property in the name of the Cuban people. Would it make more sense to punish Argentinians?
QuoteHow's that been working for us?
Perfectly. We still have the chip.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 17, 2012, 03:53:57 PM
Would it make more sense to punish Argentinians?
Just give me the word :menace:
Quote from: Josephus on February 17, 2012, 03:35:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on February 16, 2012, 10:16:31 PM
Good job Josephus.
Keep helping perpetuate a ditactorship and the suffering of a poor people.
All I did was link to a Cuban newspaper article about their odd accounting practices vis-a-vis the manipulation of their peso. :huh:
But once you got this going. I agree. One day the Cuban dictatorship will fall and the Cuban people will be as rich and free as...well, Haitians maybe.
I don't agree. I think post-communist Cuba has a lot of potential, if it can be managed properly. One thing communism is generally good at, with some notable exceptions, is developing human capital. Ironically, you can't take advantage of it until you lose the communism bullshit, but it does build a lot of the necessary framework.
Quote from: DGuller on February 17, 2012, 04:41:39 PM
I don't agree. I think post-communist Cuba has a lot of potential, if it can be managed properly. One thing communism is generally good at, with some notable exceptions, is developing human capital. Ironically, you can't take advantage of it until you lose the communism bullshit, but it does build a lot of the necessary framework.
I think post-communist Cuba has the most potential if it isn't managed much at all. It would be the anti-Haiti, in fact.
How do you see Cuba thriving? I am seriously curious. All I can see is it returning to a hotbed of American tourism (though Mexico will try to prevent that). It has no natural resources. No industrial base. It has people, yes. And enterprising ones, at that, who can keep a 1952 Chevrolet running. But I can't see what else it can offer. Cubans tend to be over-educated, which means that there will undoubtedly be a brain drain once the borders open up.
Quote from: derspiess on February 17, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 17, 2012, 04:41:39 PM
I don't agree. I think post-communist Cuba has a lot of potential, if it can be managed properly. One thing communism is generally good at, with some notable exceptions, is developing human capital. Ironically, you can't take advantage of it until you lose the communism bullshit, but it does build a lot of the necessary framework.
I think post-communist Cuba has the most potential if it isn't managed much at all. It would be the anti-Haiti, in fact.
The Somalia option.
Quote from: Valmy on February 17, 2012, 01:57:14 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 01:53:03 PM
Yeah, Castro is awful but our embargo has been more harmful to the Cuban people and has done more to keep them in poverty than Castro has. Hate to say it, but it's true.
I don't hate to say it. The embargo is just hilariously counter-productive and idiotic policy, kept in place by intertia decades after its original purpose has past. I would be really upset by it but there are so many similar things being done by the Feds.
The hypocrites who do business with Red China would call you a commie liberal terrorist for doing business with Red Cuba.
Quote from: derspiess on February 17, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
I think post-communist Cuba has the most potential if it isn't managed much at all. It would be the anti-Haiti, in fact.
I don't think the problem in Haiti is over-management.
What policy (and this is not a rhetorical question) would be more effective as both a retaliatory measure and as a future deterrent for the appropriation of US assets? And how would that policy punish only the regime (and still be an effective deterrent) while not punishing the people?
Isn't the fact that there is a bunch of idiot Spics in Florida who can vote pretty much the only reason for the embargo these days?
You are such a charming person Marty.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 17, 2012, 03:53:57 PM
I don't understand the ... ellipses. The Cuban state expropriated US property in the name of the Cuban people. Would it make more sense to punish Argentinians?
Did the Cuban people ask the Cuban state to do that? Or did Castro and crew just decide that's what the Cuban people wanted?
Quote from: Martinus on February 18, 2012, 06:08:11 AM
Isn't the fact that there is a bunch of idiot Spics in Florida who can vote pretty much the only reason for the embargo these days?
They aren't idiots; they ARE single-issue voters, largely because you would be too if a dictator had ruined the fuck out of your country.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 17, 2012, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on February 17, 2012, 03:49:24 PM
So to drive that one home, we are punishing...the Cuban people?
I don't understand the ... ellipses. The Cuban state expropriated US property in the name of the Cuban people. Would it make more sense to punish Argentinians?
QuoteHow's that been working for us?
Perfectly. We still have the chip.
Yeah, a chip so valuable that they haven't done actually done what we want them to do in the last sixty years. If you are selling something and nobody has tried to buy in half a century "I still have it", is small consolation for the time it spent taking up shelf space.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 18, 2012, 01:50:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 18, 2012, 06:08:11 AM
Isn't the fact that there is a bunch of idiot Spics in Florida who can vote pretty much the only reason for the embargo these days?
They aren't idiots; they ARE single-issue voters, largely because you would be too if a dictator had ruined the fuck out of your country.
Indeed this exactly explains why communism still has so much residual support in Cuba.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 18, 2012, 01:49:34 PM
Did the Cuban people ask the Cuban state to do that? Or did Castro and crew just decide that's what the Cuban people wanted?
Before doing anything Castro always visits each and every Cuban family in their homes and asks them if a given policy is a good idea. He got the idea from Hirohito, who invited every Japanese citizen for tea at the palace to discuss their opinion on bombing Pearl Harbor.
Sigh.
Quote from: fahdiz on February 18, 2012, 02:22:03 PM
Sigh.
Sigh what? What sigh?
You asked a rhetorical question, trying to make the point that the Cuban people have had no say in the policies for which they are being punished. I rebutted that point by showing we have *always* held people accountable for policies in which they had no say.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 18, 2012, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: derspiess on February 17, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
I think post-communist Cuba has the most potential if it isn't managed much at all. It would be the anti-Haiti, in fact.
I don't think the problem in Haiti is over-management.
Nor is it under-management.
Damn middle management.
Every people have the goverment they deserve.
If they didn't like Castro and his policies, they should have removed him from power.
Yet there is no rebelion nor anti-Castro movement in Cuba.
I saw this article this morning; pretty interesting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/world/americas/real-estate-fever-spreads-in-cuba.html?_r=1
Quote from: Siege on February 19, 2012, 12:10:58 AM
Every people have the goverment they deserve.
If they didn't like Castro and his policies, they should have removed him from power.
Yet there is no rebelion nor anti-Castro movement in Cuba.
There was. The government called it a "War against the bandits", or something. Keep in mind that Castro removed the previous government by force, which was also a dictatorship, though a dictatorship supported by the US.
And when was that? Back during the Bay of Pigs?
So are you telling me since the 1960's there have not been a rebellion against Castro?
As I said, every people deserve the goverment they have.
I have little sympathy for dictatorships and 3rd world countries. They are 3rd worlders for a reason.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
And when was that? Back during the Bay of Pigs?
So are you telling me since the 1960's there have not been a rebellion against Castro?
As I said, every people deserve the goverment they have.
I have little sympathy for dictatorships and 3rd world countries. They are 3rd worlders for a reason.
Yeah, back in the 1960's. The last effort to overthrow a tyrant ended up with Castro. That doesn't seem a good path.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
And when was that? Back during the Bay of Pigs?
So are you telling me since the 1960's there have not been a rebellion against Castro?
As I said, every people deserve the goverment they have.
I have little sympathy for dictatorships and 3rd world countries. They are 3rd worlders for a reason.
Right? Well-poisoning tribalists, the lot of them.
This tribalist is freedom loving and would not suffer dictatorships. Especially a communist one.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 02:32:53 PM
This tribalist is freedom loving and would not suffer dictatorships. Especially a communist one.
Of course you would. You'd be the one defending it. That's your job, solider boy.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
I have little sympathy for dictatorships and 3rd world countries. They are 3rd worlders for a reason.
Israel?
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
And when was that? Back during the Bay of Pigs?
So are you telling me since the 1960's there have not been a rebellion against Castro?
As I said, every people deserve the goverment they have.
I have little sympathy for dictatorships and 3rd world countries. They are 3rd worlders for a reason.
Who do you have sympathy for?
I have sympathy for law-abiding, hard-working, freedom-loving citizens.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
And when was that? Back during the Bay of Pigs?
So are you telling me since the 1960's there have not been a rebellion against Castro?
As I said, every people deserve the goverment they have.
I have little sympathy for dictatorships and 3rd world countries. They are 3rd worlders for a reason.
Easy for someone born in first world country to say.
Quote from: Siege on February 20, 2012, 06:25:36 PM
I have sympathy for law-abiding, hard-working, freedom-loving citizens.
Isn't that contradictory? Overthrowing Castro would most certainly be against some Cuban law, probably several of them in fact.