I have a theory that reading a general history of your own country written by a foreigner, not an immigrant or at someone not assimilated into your culture and preferable not in your own native language, would have some beneficial effects in counteracting some national myths and stereotypes one might have been brought up with or absorbed from more conservatively written national histories.
I say general histories, because I think volumes on specific smaller time periods and themes benefit from their specialism and I suspect somewhat diminish the 'nationalistic' element in authorship.
I got this idea when reading those historical atlases as a child and it was noticeable, because they were written by Germans, that the perspective was clearly not Anglo-centric, which I liked.
So what suggestions do people have for a general history of England and/or Britain and your own countries ?
And for that matter which other countries and histories do you suggest ?
One of the major problems with history as it is being done today is the insistence on not using a single language. It is retarded.
I haven't read that many general historíes of Sweden written by foreigners.
The best book on the Great Northern War is written by a Brit (I think). But then Swedish historians weigh in at around 60-70 so no surprise there.
Um...are there British or Aussies or whatever writing histories of the US? I did see some written by French historians in French while I was there. I enjoyed reading about the Battle of Gettysburg written by a French dude for French readers, for example. But that obviously exists because there is a demand for that sort of thing by the Froggie history buff.
I have trouble imagining there are a whole lot of Canadian history books written by non-Canadians...
Battlefields of North America by John Keegan is sort of on topic. Wasn't really blown away by any of his perspectives.
If anything I think he has a tendancy to be a little gushy about the US.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2012, 04:38:02 PM
Battlefields of North America by John Keegan is sort of on topic. Wasn't really blown away by any of his perspectives.
If anything I think he has a tendancy to be a little gushy about the US.
Yes, I think this tendancy can work both ways, compounded as it is by a common language and much shared history.
I think Norway is lacking in a foreigners perspective on it's history. Norway is pretty smug in general.
Quote from: Viking on January 31, 2012, 04:47:50 PM
I think Norway is lacking in a foreigners perspective on it's history. Norway is pretty smug in general.
Wouldn't Danes write lots about Norwegian History? I mean it is shared history for many centuries.
Norman Davies' "God's Playground" is a very good history of Poland. He also wrote a number of other books about specific periods/events in Polish history. His wife is Polish and he speaks Polish but I wouldn't call him assimilated.
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2012, 04:49:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 31, 2012, 04:47:50 PM
I think Norway is lacking in a foreigners perspective on it's history. Norway is pretty smug in general.
Wouldn't Danes write lots about Norwegian History? I mean it is shared history for many centuries.
Historically only Icelanders write about Norwegian History, but we haven't been able to afford parchment or writing utensils since 1262 AD.
Is anyone outside your "county" a foreigner? :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2012, 04:38:02 PM
Battlefields of North America by John Keegan is sort of on topic. Wasn't really blown away by any of his perspectives.
If anything I think he has a tendancy to be a little gushy about the US.
The Brits tend to be either gushy about the US or insufferably smug.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2012, 05:25:57 PM
The Brits tend to be either gushy about the US or insufferably smug.
Off the top of my head I can't think of another one I would consider gushy. Who did you have in mind?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2012, 05:27:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2012, 05:25:57 PM
The Brits tend to be either gushy about the US or insufferably smug.
Off the top of my head I can't think of another one I would consider gushy. Who did you have in mind?
Late life Hitchens, and nearly any Brit with a hatred of the Monarchy.
I've not read any I don't think. I did watch Schama's History of Britain though.
Some friends watched England v Slovenia with him. So desperately jealous :(
Didn't de Tocqueville do that already, Mongers?
There's a whole cadre of amateur European experts on US history over at Pdox OT. Reading the stuff they write hasn't done much for me.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 31, 2012, 06:33:09 PM
There's a whole cadre of amateur European experts on US history over at Pdox OT. Reading the stuff they write hasn't done much for me.
I JUST SAW A DOCUMENTARY ON CHANNEL 2 ABOUT AMERICAN PRISONS. YOU AMERICANS SHOULD BE ASHAMED. OMG! DEATH PENALTY! BORK BORK BORK
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2012, 06:06:05 PM
Didn't de Tocqueville do that already, Mongers?
Surely a few things have happened worth talking about since the 1830s over here.
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2012, 09:12:00 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2012, 06:06:05 PM
Didn't de Tocqueville do that already, Mongers?
Surely a few things have happened worth talking about since the 1830s over here.
Not really.
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2012, 04:34:28 PM
I have trouble imagining there are a whole lot of Canadian history books written by non-Canadians...
Textbooks, or general history - not so much. But there are lots of things on specific events written by non-Canadians. A lot, for instance, concern the
earlier periods of history. I have also had contact with scholars from this center: http://www.uni-augsburg.de/institute/kanada/
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 31, 2012, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 31, 2012, 06:33:09 PM
There's a whole cadre of amateur European experts on US history over at Pdox OT. Reading the stuff they write hasn't done much for me.
I JUST SAW A DOCUMENTARY ON CHANNEL 2 ABOUT AMERICAN PRISONS. YOU AMERICANS SHOULD BE ASHAMED. OMG! DEATH PENALTY! BORK BORK BORK
I love the anti-death penalty crowd. "Just give him life imprisonment," they say, because, like, there's some kind of moral difference when someone dies unfree in the state's custody now and when someone dies unfree in the state's custody twenty years from now.
For subjects like the Chinese theatre in WWII, I very much prefer to read material written by foreigners. They are usually much more objective and neutral than Chinese ones. The Chinese books tend to (a) overstate the accomplishments of Chinese forces and (b) take obvious sides between the nationalists and communists, and blame each other.
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 31, 2012, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 31, 2012, 06:33:09 PM
There's a whole cadre of amateur European experts on US history over at Pdox OT. Reading the stuff they write hasn't done much for me.
I JUST SAW A DOCUMENTARY ON CHANNEL 2 ABOUT AMERICAN PRISONS. YOU AMERICANS SHOULD BE ASHAMED. OMG! DEATH PENALTY! BORK BORK BORK
I'm pretty sure Robert Bork is pro death penalty.
Are any of the volumes of the Oxford History of the United States actually written by Brits?
Quote from: Monoriu on February 01, 2012, 04:38:11 AM
For subjects like the Chinese theatre in WWII, I very much prefer to read material written by foreigners. They are usually much more objective and neutral than Chinese ones. The Chinese books tend to (a) overstate the accomplishments of Chinese forces and (b) take obvious sides between the nationalists and communists, and blame each other.
I went to the Cairo Citadel and went to it's Army Museum. It seems that the Egyptian Army won the battle of Alamein almost single handedly by capturing downed German pilots and nothing and I mean absolutely nothing happened in 1967.
Quote from: Ideologue on February 01, 2012, 02:10:50 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 31, 2012, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 31, 2012, 06:33:09 PM
There's a whole cadre of amateur European experts on US history over at Pdox OT. Reading the stuff they write hasn't done much for me.
I JUST SAW A DOCUMENTARY ON CHANNEL 2 ABOUT AMERICAN PRISONS. YOU AMERICANS SHOULD BE ASHAMED. OMG! DEATH PENALTY! BORK BORK BORK
I love the anti-death penalty crowd. "Just give him life imprisonment," they say, because, like, there's some kind of moral difference when someone dies unfree in the state's custody now and when someone dies unfree in the state's custody twenty years from now.
there is a vast difference: you are not giving the state the power to kill people.
Quote from: Josephus on January 31, 2012, 05:21:00 PM
Is anyone outside your "county" a foreigner? :hmm:
I thought this really was going to be a thread asking about histories of our counties. <_<
There's bond to be a New France book written by an Englishmen, there are of course lots of them by frenchman.
But on Modern Quebec? I doubt it very much.
Quote from: Tamas on February 01, 2012, 08:22:13 AM
there is a vast difference: you are not giving the state the power to kill people.
The state has the power to kill people. That's the definition of a state.
Quote from: Josephus on January 31, 2012, 05:21:00 PM
Is anyone outside your "county" a foreigner? :hmm:
:D
Just noticed the typo, and no outside my county no, outside 'Wessex' probably. :)
Quote from: Maximus on February 01, 2012, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 01, 2012, 08:22:13 AM
there is a vast difference: you are not giving the state the power to kill people.
The state has the power to kill people. That's the definition of a state.
That's kind of an oversimplification on the monopoly on the legitimate use of force inside its borders.
Yes it is, but it's sufficient for the purpose.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 01, 2012, 04:38:11 AM
For subjects like the Chinese theatre in WWII, I very much prefer to read material written by foreigners. They are usually much more objective and neutral than Chinese ones. The Chinese books tend to (a) overstate the accomplishments of Chinese forces and (b) take obvious sides between the nationalists and communists, and blame each other.
Have you seen the PBS video
The Tank Man? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/
About 10% of my sophomore World History class each year is from the PRC, and, year after year, they are absolutely blown away by it.
Foreigners never talk or write about Israel.
I don't think foreigners are that interested in US.
Quote from: DGuller on February 12, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
I don't think foreigners are that interested in US.
You jest right?
Quote from: DGuller on February 12, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
I don't think foreigners are that interested in US.
That must explain how few of them are here.
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 10:22:29 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 01, 2012, 04:38:11 AM
For subjects like the Chinese theatre in WWII, I very much prefer to read material written by foreigners. They are usually much more objective and neutral than Chinese ones. The Chinese books tend to (a) overstate the accomplishments of Chinese forces and (b) take obvious sides between the nationalists and communists, and blame each other.
Have you seen the PBS video The Tank Man? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/
About 10% of my sophomore World History class each year is from the PRC, and, year after year, they are absolutely blown away by it.
Not surprising.
I can't even view that link here. <_<
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 10:22:29 PM
Have you seen the PBS video The Tank Man? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/
About 10% of my sophomore World History class each year is from the PRC, and, year after year, they are absolutely blown away by it.
Teaching them early that there's no such thing as happy endings, huh?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2012, 07:44:32 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 11, 2012, 10:22:29 PM
Have you seen the PBS video The Tank Man? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/
About 10% of my sophomore World History class each year is from the PRC, and, year after year, they are absolutely blown away by it.
Teaching them early that there's no such thing as happy endings, huh?
Teaching students about happy endings is how teachers get in trouble, Seedy.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2012, 07:44:32 AM
Teaching them early that there's no such thing as happy endings, huh?
Teaching them early that what their government is hiding from them includes interesting stories. Makes 'em want to look for more.
Quote from: DGuller on February 13, 2012, 09:22:23 AM
Teaching students about happy endings is how teachers get in trouble, Seedy.
I think teaching students about happy endings is par for the course in Asia.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2012, 06:06:05 PM
Didn't de Tocqueville do that already, Mongers?
Ditto. And freakishly, a lot of what he wrote nearly 200 years ago is still applicable.
Quote from: derspiess on February 13, 2012, 04:40:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2012, 06:06:05 PM
Didn't de Tocqueville do that already, Mongers?
Ditto. And freakishly, a lot of what he wrote nearly 200 years ago is still applicable.
I think he may have given the best description of the American mindset ever.