Outrageous :mad:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/holocaust-survivors-blast-nazi-garb-protest-15269296#.TwGMctVKR5e
QuoteHolocaust Survivors Blast Nazi Garb at Protest
By ARON HELLER Associated Press
JERUSALEM January 1, 2012 (AP)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FInternational%2Fap_orthodox_jews_rally_jt_120101_wg.jpg&hash=6166fec37b996b30884a68d1737638431770887a)
Images of ultra-Orthodox Jews dressing up as Nazi concentration camp inmates during a protest drew widespread condemnation Sunday and added a new twist to a simmering battle over growing extremism inside Israel's insular ultra-Orthodox community.
Religious extremists are facing increasing criticism for their efforts to separate men and women in public spaces, and Saturday's protest, in which a child mimicked an iconic photo of a terrified Jewish boy in the Warsaw Ghetto, added to the outrage.
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered Saturday night in Jerusalem to protest what they say is a nationwide campaign directed against their lifestyle. The protesters called Israeli policemen Nazis, wore yellow Star of David patches with the word "Jude" — German for Jew — dressed their children in striped black-and-white uniforms associated with Nazi concentration camps and transported them in the back of a truck.
Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial denounced the use of Nazi imagery as "disgraceful," and several other survivors' groups and politicians condemned the acts.
"We must leave the Holocaust and its symbols outside the arguments in Israeli society," said Moshe Zanbar, chairman of the main umbrella group for Holocaust survivors in Israel. "This harms the memory of the Holocaust."
Six million Jews were killed by German Nazis and their collaborators during World War II. About 200,000 aging survivors of the Holocaust live in Israel.
Ultra-Orthodox Jews make up 10 percent of Israel's population. In the past, they have generally confined their strict lifestyle to their own neighborhoods. But they have become increasingly aggressive in trying to impose their ways on others, as their population has grown and spread to new areas.
Extremist sects within the ultra-Orthodox community have been under fire of late for their attempts to ban mixing of the sexes on buses, sidewalks and other public spaces.
In one city, extremists have jeered and spit at girls walking to school, saying they were dressed immodestly. They've also battled with police over street signs calling for segregation and attacked journalists who have covered their neighborhoods. In recent weeks, a few young Israeli women have caused nationwide uproars for refusing the orders of religious men to move to the back of public buses.
These practices, albeit by a fringe sect, have unleashed a backlash against the ultra-Orthodox in general, the climax of which came last week in a large demonstration where protesters held signs reading, "Free Israel from religious coercion," and "Stop Israel from becoming Iran."
Rabbi Yitzhak Weiss, one of the organizers of Saturday's protest, said the use of Nazi symbols was intentional and aimed at highlighting what he said was a campaign by the secular media against his community.
"The idea was to convey a clear and simple message: that wild incitement against the ultra-Orthodox community will not be tolerated," he told The Associated Press. "The Israeli media's incitement is reminiscent of the German media's before World War II."
One of the protesters, Yaakov Israel, told Channel 2 TV that his community feels "persecuted" by the Israeli establishment. "We feel what is being done to us here is a spiritual Holocaust," he said.
It's not the first time ultra-Orthodox zealots have referred to the Holocaust in their political struggles. But the sight of children dressed in garb that conjures up images of the darkest period in Jewish history was unprecedented. It sparked angry rebuttals that only exacerbated Israel's brewing religious war.
Israeli leaders condemned the display and called on the ultra-Orthodox leadership to speak out against it.
"This is a terrible offense against the memory of the Holocaust victims who were forced, secular and Ultra-Orthodox alike, to wear the yellow star in the ghetto on their way to extermination, and there is no demonstration in the world that can justify this," said opposition leader Tzipi Livni.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak called the display "shocking and horrifying" and a "crossing of a red line."
The American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants, an umbrella organization of U.S. survivors, expressed its "utter contempt at this disgraceful exploitation" of the Nazi symbols.
"We who survived and witnessed these Nazi crimes are particularly offended that demonstrators so blithely used children in this public outrage. They have insulted the memory of all the Jewish victims, including those who were ultra-Orthodox," the organization's vice president, Elan Steinberg, said in a statement.
"The Nazis made no distinction in their murderous treatment of our people — whether one was ultra-Orthodox, traditional, or nonbeliever, you were marked for cruelty and death."
Nazi garb? I figured that would be SS uniforms, not Jew pajamas.
Quoteand their collaborators
lol, didn't miss that one, did they?
Good luck to all the secular Israelis in their fight for a secular state.
QuoteOutrageous :mad:
:Joos :lmfao:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 02, 2012, 05:59:34 AM
Nazi garb? I figured that would be SS uniforms, not Jew pajamas.
Self-hating Jews.
QuoteIn one city, extremists have jeered and spit at girls walking to school, saying they were dressed immodestly. They've also battled with police over street signs calling for segregation and attacked journalists who have covered their neighborhoods. In recent weeks, a few young Israeli women have caused nationwide uproars for refusing the orders of religious men to move to the back of public buses.
And yet they play the victim card. Takes quite some chutzpah.
It's the ultra-Orthodox. There is no low they won't sink to in their pursuit of religious fuck-headery.
Israel: lots more crazy antisemites than Europe. :)
Quote from: Zoupa on January 02, 2012, 10:56:16 AM
Israel: lots more crazy antisemites than Europe. :)
Impossible, they only have 7 million people.
You have to compound with the level of crazy.
That's quite tasteless.
Are those girls or boys?
Quote from: Zoupa on January 02, 2012, 11:36:08 AM
You have to compound with the level of crazy.
I don't think that these guys are any more crazy than the animal-rights extremists, the ultra-greens, the anticapitalists or the semi-Russians from Poland or Hungary.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2012, 12:06:14 PM
Are those girls or boys?
Boys. The ultra-Orthodox would never allow a woman or girl to appear in public without throwing stones at her.
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 06:10:05 AM
Good luck to all the secular Israelis in their fight for a secular state.
Indeed.
Also good luck to the non-settlers fighting the aggressive settler movements who've taken to acts of violence on Palestinians, burning down Mosques and attacking the IDF.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 02, 2012, 02:01:20 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 02, 2012, 06:10:05 AM
Good luck to all the secular Israelis in their fight for a secular state.
Indeed.
Also good luck to the non-settlers fighting the aggressive settler movements who've taken to acts of violence on Palestinians, burning down Mosques and attacking the IDF.
That's what happens when Israel decided to allow themselves to be colonized by non-Jewish Russians.
I thought about making a thread on the spitting-on-an-8-year-old story a few days ago:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1227/A-spitting-incident-sets-off-Israeli-frustration-with-Jewish-zealotry
QuoteBeit Shemesh, Israel
The harassment of an 8-year-old girl by ultra-Orthodox Jews in the Jerusalem suburb of Beit Shemesh is shaking Israel's self image to the core, stirring nationwide outrage about escalating religious zealotry and creeping public segregation of women.
For months, Na'ama Margolis and classmates at her school endured insults and spitting by the neighborhood's strict Orthodox Jews – known in Hebrew as "Haredi,'' or God fearing – who complain that they should dress more modestly. When their story was featured on a weekend news magazine several days ago, it ignited already simmering worry about efforts of the ultra-religious to exclude women in places like public buses or the army.
"I think the whole country needs to wake up ... that it's not just a corner in Beit Shemesh,'' said Ailsa Coleman, a 42-year-old neighbor who volunteered to escort Margolis's classmates outside the school and was also spat on. "It's happening everywhere."
In recent days there have been repeated clashes between ultra-Orthodox protesters and police and attacks on news crews in Beit Shemesh. Thousands of protesters gathered in the city with signs reading "Segregation of Women is my Red Line'' and warning of an Israeli theocracy.
The segregation reflects the Haredi minority's growing influence on Israel's politics and economy. Civil rights advocates and Beit Shemesh locals say that the government and law enforcement authorities have turned a blind eye, even though the examples of exclusion proliferate.
They point to special arrangements for ultra-Orthodox communities where women are relegated to the rear of the buses, have separate lines in eateries, and sit in health clinic waiting rooms that are divided by gender. There are also efforts to erase images of women from public billboards. Last week, a secular woman was heckled for riding in the front of one of the buses and pressured to move.
"This ties into whether we are democratic liberal state that protects women's rights, or whether we're not going to be a democracy in a future," said Einat Horovitz, a spokeswoman of the Religious Action Center, an Israeli nonprofit which challenged the bus segregation in Israel's Supreme Court. "Politicians don't realize that being a democracy isn't only about the rule of the majority, its about protecting human rights and the rights of the minority, and this has escaped our politicians."
In Beit Shemesh, prominent signs calling for modest dress and excluding women from certain sidewalks near synagogues have been tolerated for years in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood near the elementary school, which happens to serve a less strict group of Orthodox Jews.
In a statement, the Haredi rabbis of Beit Shemesh insisted that even without the signs, ultra-Orthodox women would follow rules of modesty.
"It is for the honor toward women and the fact that Judaism orders the separation of men and women in the public sphere," the statement read, according to a transcript printed on the Ynet News website. It also asserted that the ultra-Orthodox wish to live in homogenous communities to allow them to pass on their way of life.
Since its inception, Israel has allowed ultra-Orthodox communities remain cut off from the mainstream, allowing them to set up autonomous school systems, granting them exemptions from compulsory military service, and providing them with subsidies so they can focus on religious study rather than joining the workforce. But their growing numbers – their birthrate is much higher than the Israeli average – have sparked worry about the ramifications for the Israeli economy and the influence on society.
Residents and officials said that Haredi community is taking out its frustration on the pupils because they wanted the school for their own children. In Beit Shemesh, there's an ongoing turf battle between the ultra-Orthodox and the rest of the community for new building in the city.
In response to the uproar, ultra Orthodox partners in Israel's coalition accused Israel's secular media of a witch hunt against their community and accused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of selling out a loyal constituency for political convenience. Mr. Netanyahu's said on Tuesday that segregation of women "contradicts traditional spirit of the Tanakh (Jewish scriptures, or Old Testament) and Judaism, and contradicts the democratic principles on which Israel was based."
Observers say that the uproar over segregation shows an enduring chasm between the ultra-Orthodox and the Israeli mainstream.
"Modern society has broken a lot of barriers, and religious society has kept some of those barriers up," says Aaron Katsman, a financial advisor and former economic columnist the ultra-Orthodox newspaper Hamodia. "Both sides don't know how to deal with each other. You have a meeting of two groups which have never spoken to each other, and never met each other, and neither side knows how to deal with it."
Golda Meir would have fucked these bitches up.
Still, Middle Easterners are Middle Easterners. These guys are the proof that the Israelis aren't different from the Muslims, and that we should just let them all kill each other.
Being in the Middle East was bound to rub off on them. Heck involvement in that region has had very negative effects on us and we are only doing it from a distance.
Of course it could also be the whole 'Russian Jews move in and ruin everything' theory but one thing is for sure is that Isreal is becoming more and more of a religious Jewish state as time moves on.
I think the Brooklynites have probably contributed more to this than the Russians.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 03, 2012, 11:13:40 AM
I think the Brooklynites have probably contributed more to this than the Russians.
Brooklynites are a force behind religious Jews taking over, or rather becoming more and more influential, in Israel? I am not disagreeing I was just not aware of this.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 11:12:35 AM
Of course it could also be the whole 'Russian Jews move in and ruin everything' theory but one thing is for sure is that Isreal is becoming more and more of a religious Jewish state as time moves on.
My understanding is that Russian Jews moving to Israel are overwhelmingly secular and actually quite anti-Orthodox (not least because they do national service, while the Orthodox don't). I think the negative impact of Russian immigration has been an increase in racism against Arabs both Israeli and Palestinian, extreme nationalism ('Our Israel') and some quite authoritarian, Putin-esque leaders. They're predominately, I think, part of the problem in the settler movement. The effect of the Russians isn't Israel becoming more religious. It's becoming more racist and less democratic.
The religious nuts in East Jerusalem trying to enforce gender segregation and attacking small girls are, I imagine, far more linked to Brooklyn than Brest-Litovsk, as Mihali says.
The problem is that I think both pose different challenges for mainstream Zionism and the relationship between Israel and the diaspora, especially American Jewry.
One liberal American Jewish writer's suggested that perhaps one answer would be for an Israeli government to include one of the Arab parties in the government. That way you'd remove the dangerous reliance that so many Israeli governments have had to place on extremists. Basically if you put up a cordon sanitaire around 10-20% of the Knesset then the power of extremists in the remaining 80% is far greater.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 11:12:35 AM
Being in the Middle East was bound to rub off on them. Heck involvement in that region has had very negative effects on us and we are only doing it from a distance.
Of course it could also be the whole 'Russian Jews move in and ruin everything' theory but one thing is for sure is that Isreal is becoming more and more of a religious Jewish state as time moves on.
I think the opposite may be happening - what we are seeing is a backlash by the secular majority. For various reasons the religious minority has had its own way for a long time and now the pendulum appears to be swinging the other way.
I think it has essentially nothing to do with middle east wierdness rubbing off on the Israelis, and everything to do with purely indigenous developments. You see some of the same seperation in Jewish communities in NA - the ultra-orthodox are increasingly viewed as a completely seperate group. It was only a common persecution that ever thrust them together in the first place, as ultra orthodox and secular Jews have very little other than common ancestry in common.
Thing is, this only becomes news because the secular majority are pissed off and fed up - and unlike in the past, are willing to express it.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 11:23:24 AM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 11:12:35 AM
Of course it could also be the whole 'Russian Jews move in and ruin everything' theory but one thing is for sure is that Isreal is becoming more and more of a religious Jewish state as time moves on.
My understanding is that Russian Jews moving to Israel are overwhelmingly secular and actually quite anti-Orthodox (not least because they do national service, while the Orthodox don't). I think the negative impact of Russian immigration has been an increase in racism against Arabs both Israeli and Palestinian, extreme nationalism ('Our Israel') and some quite authoritarian, Putin-esque leaders. They're predominately, I think, part of the problem in the settler movement. The effect of the Russians isn't Israel becoming more religious. It's becoming more racist and less democratic.
The religious nuts in East Jerusalem trying to enforce gender segregation and attacking small girls are, I imagine, far more linked to Brooklyn than Brest-Litovsk, as Mihali says.
The problem is that I think both pose different challenges for mainstream Zionism and the relationship between Israel and the diaspora, especially American Jewry.
One liberal American Jewish writer's suggested that perhaps one answer would be for an Israeli government to include one of the Arab parties in the government. That way you'd remove the dangerous reliance that so many Israeli governments have had to place on extremists. Basically if you put up a cordon sanitaire around 10-20% of the Knesset then the power of extremists in the remaining 80% is far greater.
I love how the Russians can be boogeymen in completey opposite ways. :D Insane religous or insane anti-religious racists? Take yer pick. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, mind. Frankly I have no idea. Just that being blamed for every problem seems to be par for the course.
The settler movement is at least as much an American phenominon as Russian.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 11:23:24 AM
My understanding is that Russian Jews moving to Israel are overwhelmingly secular and actually quite anti-Orthodox (not least because they do national service, while the Orthodox don't).
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought in Israel everybody who is religious is Orthodox. The divide among the religious is between the ultras and the non-ultras. Because plenty of the religious orthodox leaders have done military service.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 11:16:35 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on January 03, 2012, 11:13:40 AM
I think the Brooklynites have probably contributed more to this than the Russians.
Brooklynites are a force behind religious Jews taking over, or rather becoming more and more influential, in Israel? I am not disagreeing I was just not aware of this.
My brother-in-law moved to Brooklyn because Israel wasn't Jewish enough. When it comes to complete Jewish wackjobs intentionally disconnected from the real world, Brooklyn is the HQ.
Russian immigrants are actually the exact opposite, unless they fell for the religious pitch. Russians Jews are generally very secular or even atheist.
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 11:31:05 AM
I love how the Russians can be boogeymen in completey opposite ways. :D Insane religous or insane anti-religious racists? Take yer pick. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, mind. Frankly I have no idea. Just that being blamed for every problem seems to be par for the course.
It's kind of like how they can be car enthusiasts who are unable to pump their own gas.
Quote from: DGuller on January 03, 2012, 11:57:41 AM
My brother-in-law moved to Brooklyn because Israel wasn't Jewish enough.
So Brooklyn is making Israel less religious then :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 03, 2012, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 11:31:05 AM
I love how the Russians can be boogeymen in completey opposite ways. :D Insane religous or insane anti-religious racists? Take yer pick. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, mind. Frankly I have no idea. Just that being blamed for every problem seems to be par for the course.
It's kind of like how they can be car enthusiasts who are unable to pump their own gas.
Fuck you, dear. :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 11:51:28 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought in Israel everybody who is religious is Orthodox. The divide among the religious is between the ultras and the non-ultras. Because plenty of the religious orthodox leaders have done military service.
That's right. It's the ultra-Orthodox, such as these ones who are protesting, who don't do service.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 12:05:01 PM
That's right. It's the ultra-Orthodox, such as these ones who are protesting, who don't do service.
Ok since we are on Israel 101 here :P
I do not understand the legal or theological basis for ultras not doing Military service. I mean I see nothing in the OT that mentions that certain very relgious parts of the population should not do military service. I mean the Macabees were even members of the Priestly class.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 12:09:22 PM
I do not understand the legal or theological basis for ultras not doing Military service. I mean I see nothing in the OT that mentions that certain very relgious parts of the population should not do military service. I mean the Macabees were even members of the Priestly class.
I've no idea really. I know they have religious study instead of military service. But I don't know if that's a choice or they're religiously unable to be in the military. My understanding is that another problem with 'secular' Israel (ie. everyone else) is that they tend to have high welfare bills because religious study doesn't pay.
Again, I could be wrong, but I think the legal justification is that the ultra-Orthodox are a politically necessary group for any Israeli government, so they get concessions and they don't get abolished.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 12:09:22 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 12:05:01 PM
That's right. It's the ultra-Orthodox, such as these ones who are protesting, who don't do service.
Ok since we are on Israel 101 here :P
I do not understand the legal or theological basis for ultras not doing Military service. I mean I see nothing in the OT that mentions that certain very relgious parts of the population should not do military service. I mean the Macabees were even members of the Priestly class.
Some of the ultra-orthodox are extreme anti-Zionists - they view the Israeli state as a blasphemy.
They don't do service for the same reason than most Arabs don't do service - dislike of the state.
What differs is that, because of their political clout, they also extract all sorts of goodies from the state that they so dislike. Evidently hatred of the state doesn't preven them from voting.
I recently read a very good history of the city of Jerusalem - makes me sympathize with whoever has the thankless task of governing that city. It requires tolerating all sorts of really unpleasant minorities - of which these ultra-orthodox are merely one. What to make of violent monks who quite regularly riot with crowbars over ownership of square feet of the holy seplecre? Of ultra-orthodox Jews who spit on people wearing shorts - where the summer temp is in the oven? Or muslims who set up loudspeakers to broadcast calls to prayer at Spinal Tap volumes? If the authorities lay a finger on any of 'em, it is world news.
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 12:19:22 PM
Some of the ultra-orthodox are extreme anti-Zionists - they view the Israeli state as a blasphemy.
Then why do they live there? I figured the ultras who actually live in Zion were not those sorts of ultras.
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 12:19:22 PM
I recently read a very good history of the city of Jerusalem - makes me sympathize with whoever has the thankless task of governing that city. It requires tolerating all sorts of really unpleasant minorities - of which these ultra-orthodox are merely one. What to make of violent monks who quite regularly riot with crowbars over ownership of square feet of the holy seplecre? Of ultra-orthodox Jews who spit on people wearing shorts - where the summer temp is in the oven? Or muslims who set up loudspeakers to broadcast calls to prayer at Spinal Tap volumes? If the authorities lay a finger on any of 'em, it is world news.
I love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie. It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.
But yeah I would hate to try to be the voice of reason.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 12:47:04 PM
I love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie. It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.
They're so magnificently ecumenical. My favourite is the wooden ladder that's been there for over 100 years because no-one can agree who put it up and so who has the right to take it down :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 12:45:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 12:19:22 PM
Some of the ultra-orthodox are extreme anti-Zionists - they view the Israeli state as a blasphemy.
Then why do they live there? I figured the ultras who actually live in Zion were not those sorts of ultras.
For religious reasons - it is after all the Holy Land. That's why they hate the state - it isn't holy.
The reason they regard Israel as blasphemy is that they believe such a state should only exist when the messiah turns up (his job after all is to create it). He's not here yet, so
ipso facto, the state of Israel is a mockery and a sham. Sort of like calling your new state "Utopia".
Who is to say that David Ben-Gurion wasn't that Messiah, or the guy who shot Count Bernadotte?
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 01:56:56 PM
For religious reasons - it is after all the Holy Land. That's why they hate the state - it isn't holy.
The reason they regard Israel as blasphemy is that they believe such a state should only exist when the messiah turns up (his job after all is to create it). He's not here yet, so ipso facto, the state of Israel is a mockery and a sham. Sort of like calling your new state "Utopia".
So they regard any sort of state controlled by Jews in that area as blasphemy or is it just the name of it that causes the problem? If they had named the country 'Judah' would they have been cool with it?
I also thought they thought you couldn't actually live in the Holy Land until the Messiah showed up. But I guess the people who believe that are in Brooklyn and Budapest.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 12:54:23 PM
They're so magnificently ecumenical. My favourite is the wooden ladder that's been there for over 100 years because no-one can agree who put it up and so who has the right to take it down :lol:
Are there any books on this phenomenon? It surely deserves one.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 12:47:04 PM
I love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie. It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.
But yeah I would hate to try to be the voice of reason.
True story: when I was in Jerusalem many years ago, I noticed this alarming group of beardy guys dressed all in black marching in a line enacting a wierd little ceremony: they were all carrying big black staves, about 6' long and very thick and heavy, with metal on the ends. They would walk forward, raise their staves in the air, and them bring them down so that the butt end of the stick would smack hard on the pavement, making an almighty BANG. Then they would walk a pace forward and do it again. They did not look friendly - people got out of their way with speed.
I asked a passer-by who these guys were. "Oh, they are the People of the Stick" was the reply. "Everyone makes way for them". Judging by their appearance, if you didn't, they banged that stick on your skull, which would crush it nicely. I've seen more pacific looking Hell's Angels.
People of the Stick? WTF? I've never heard of them before or since.
[I finally figured out who they must be reading that Jerusalem book - it mentions that, in the old days, Muslims outlawed the Christian ringing of bells, and so Christians took to using a stick banging on the pavement instead - and some, notably Armenians, still do this because it is now traditional. These must have been Armenian monks or suchlike. ]
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 02:10:06 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 03, 2012, 12:54:23 PM
They're so magnificently ecumenical. My favourite is the wooden ladder that's been there for over 100 years because no-one can agree who put it up and so who has the right to take it down :lol:
Are there any books on this phenomenon? It surely deserves one.
I recommend this recent book: http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Biography-Simon-Sebag-Montefiore/dp/0307266516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325617969&sr=8-1
Has lots on the topic.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 02:09:32 PM
So they regard any sort of state controlled by Jews in that area as blasphemy or is it just the name of it that causes the problem? If they had named the country 'Judah' would they have been cool with it?
I also thought they thought you couldn't actually live in the Holy Land until the Messiah showed up. But I guess the people who believe that are in Brooklyn and Budapest.
I think the former. The whole project of Zionism they disapprove of - making of Judaism and ethno-nationalism like any other. To them, Jewish nationalism can only be a messianic concern. You should not have a Jewistan like any old Tom, Dick, France or Germany.
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 02:18:53 PM
I think the former. The whole project of Zionism they disapprove of - making of Judaism and ethno-nationalism like any other. To them, Jewish nationalism can only be a messianic concern. You should not have a Jewistan like any old Tom, Dick, France or Germany.
Oh really? Like if there was a Khazaristan of Jewish Turks in Central Asia they would think it was blasphemy?
So much for my plan of declaring Long Island the new Israel.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 02:25:25 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 03, 2012, 02:18:53 PM
I think the former. The whole project of Zionism they disapprove of - making of Judaism and ethno-nationalism like any other. To them, Jewish nationalism can only be a messianic concern. You should not have a Jewistan like any old Tom, Dick, France or Germany.
Oh really? Like if there was a Khazaristan of Jewish Turks in Central Asia they would think it was blasphemy?
So much for my plan of declaring Long Island the new Israel.
I think it is a combo. The Jewistan thing they disapprove of, but what really gets their goat is that it takes place in the Holy Land with Jerusalem as its capital.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2012, 11:51:28 AMCorrect me if I am wrong but I thought in Israel everybody who is religious is Orthodox.
That part of your statement doesn't sound right. The other part, about the ultra-Orthodox avoiding military service is correct AFAIK.
QuoteI love the rivalries between the Christian sects for their little slice of the Holy Places pie. It is so wonderfully insane and Middle Eastern.
I particularly love the part where possession of the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is hereditary in a certain Moslem family because none of the Christian sects that share the church trust each other enough to allow any of the others to have the keys.
Quote from: DGuller on January 03, 2012, 02:06:19 PM
Who is to say that David Ben-Gurion wasn't that Messiah, or the guy who shot Count Bernadotte?
Or Adolf Hitler?
Quote from: Neil on January 03, 2012, 09:50:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on January 03, 2012, 02:06:19 PM
Who is to say that David Ben-Gurion wasn't that Messiah, or the guy who shot Count Bernadotte?
Or Adolf Hitler?
I would have thought you would have a bit of insider knowledge on this being a deity and all. Even a Canadian deity probably hears rumors in the divine halls and such.