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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: jimmy olsen on December 29, 2011, 05:51:56 AM

Title: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: jimmy olsen on December 29, 2011, 05:51:56 AM
Needless to say this isn't wise.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45812375/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/#.TvxFl9VKR5c

QuoteRed flags ahead of US weapons sales to Iraq
While US is eager to beef up Iraq's military, some fear that the move could backfire

By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT and ERIC SCHMITT
updated 2 hours 57 minutes ago

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BAGHDAD — The Obama administration is moving ahead with the sale of nearly $11 billion worth of arms and training for the Iraqi military despite concerns that Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki is seeking to consolidate authority, create a one-party Shiite-dominated state and abandon the American-backed power-sharing government.

The military aid, including advanced fighter jets and battle tanks, is meant to help the Iraqi government protect its borders and rebuild a military that before the 1991 Persian Gulf war was one of the largest in the world; it was disbanded in 2003 after the United States invasion.

But the sales of the weapons — some of which have already been delivered — are moving ahead even though Mr. Maliki has failed to carry out an agreement that would have limited his ability to marginalize the Sunnis and turn the military into a sectarian force. While the United States is eager to beef up Iraq's military, at least in part as a hedge against Iranian influence, there are also fears that the move could backfire if the Baghdad government ultimately aligns more closely with the Shiite theocracy in Tehran than with Washington.

United States diplomats, including Ambassador James F. Jeffrey, have expressed concern about the military relationship with Iraq. Some have even said it could have political ramifications for the Obama administration if not properly managed. There is also growing concern that Mr. Maliki's apparent efforts to marginalize the country's Sunni minority could set off a civil war.

"The optics of this are terrible," said Kenneth M. Pollack, an expert on national security issues at the Brookings Institution in Washington and a critic of the administration's Iraq policy.
Story: Iraqi political parties seek to resolve crisis

The program to arm the military is being led by the United States Embassy here, which through its Office of Security Cooperation serves as a broker between the Iraqi government and defense contractors like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon. Among the big-ticket items being sold to Iraq are F-16 fighter jets, M1A1 Abrams main battle tanks, cannons and armored personnel carriers. The Iraqis have also received body armor, helmets, ammunition trailers and sport utility vehicles, which critics say can be used by domestic security services to help Mr. Maliki consolidate power.

"The purpose of these arrangements is to assist the Iraqis' ability to defend their sovereignty against foreign security threats," said Capt. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman in Washington.
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But Iraqi politicians and analysts, while acknowledging that the American military withdrawal had left Iraq's borders, and airspace, vulnerable, said there were many reasons for concern.
Ex-Iraq leader says US left job undone

Despite pronouncements from American and Iraqi officials that the Iraqi military is a nonsectarian force, they said, it had evolved into a hodgepodge of Shiite militias more interested in marginalizing the Sunnis than in protecting the country's sovereignty. Across the country, they said, Shiite flags — not Iraq's national flag — fluttered from tanks and military vehicles, evidence, many said, of the troops' sectarian allegiances.

"It is very risky to arm a sectarian army," said Rafe al-Essawi, the country's finance minister and a leading Sunni politician. "It is very risky with all the sacrifices we've made, with all the budget to be spent, with all the support of America — at the end of the day, the result will be a formal militia army."

'Troubling'
Mr. Essawi said that he was concerned about how the weapons would be used if political tension led to a renewed tide of sectarian violence. Some Iraqis and analysts said they believed that the weapons could give Mr. Maliki a significant advantage in preventing several Sunni provinces from declaring autonomy from the central government.

"Washington took the decision to build up Iraq as a counterweight to Iran through close military cooperation and the sale of major weapon systems," said Joost Hiltermann, the International Crisis Group's deputy program director for the Middle East. "Maliki has shown a troubling inclination toward enhancing his control over the country's institutions without accepting any significant checks and balances."

Uncertainty over Mr. Maliki's intentions, and with that the wisdom of the weapons sale, began to emerge even before the last American combat forces withdrew 11 days ago. Mr. Maliki moved against his Sunni rivals, arresting hundreds of former Baath Party members on charges that they were involved in a coup plot. Then security forces under Mr. Maliki's control sought to arrest the country's Sunni vice president, who fled to the semiautonomous Kurdish region in the north. In addition, Mr. Maliki threatened to release damning information on other politicians.

With these actions plunging the country into a political crisis, a few days later, Mr. Maliki said the country would be turned into "rivers of blood" if the predominantly Sunni provinces sought more autonomy.

This was not a completely unforeseen turn of events. Over the summer, the Americans told high-ranking Iraqi officials that the United States did not want an ongoing military relationship with a country that marginalized its minorities and ruled by force.

The Americans warned Iraqi officials that if they wanted to continue receiving military aid, Mr. Maliki had to fulfill an agreement from 2010 that required the Sunni bloc in Parliament to have a say in who ran the Defense and Interior Ministries. But despite a pledge to do so, the ministries remain under Mr. Maliki's control, angering many Sunnis.

Corruption, too, continues to pervade the security forces. American military advisers have said that many low- and midlevel command positions in the armed forces and the police are sold, despite American efforts to emphasize training and merit, said Anthony Cordesman, an analyst at the Center for Security and International Studies in Washington.

Pentagon and State Department officials say that weapons sales agreements have conditions built in to allow American inspectors to monitor how the arms are used, to ensure that the sales terms are not violated.
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"Washington still has considerable leverage in Iraq by freezing or withdrawing its security assistance packages, issuing travel advisories in more stark terms that will have a direct impact on direct foreign investment, and reassessing diplomatic relations and trade agreements," said Matthew Sherman, a former State Department official who spent more than three years in Iraq. "Now is the time to exercise some of that leverage by publicly putting Maliki on notice."

Lt. Gen. Robert L. Caslen, the head of the American Embassy office that is selling the weapons, said he was optimistic that Mr. Maliki and the other Iraqi politicians would work together and that the United States would not end up selling weapons to an authoritarian government.

"If it was a doomsday scenario, at some point I'm sure there will be plenty of guidance coming my way," he said in a recent interview.

A spokesman for the United States Embassy declined to comment, as did the National Security Council in Washington.

As the American economy continues to sputter, some analysts believe that Mr. Maliki and the Iraqis may hold the ultimate leverage over the Americans.

"I think he would like to get the weapons from the U.S.," Mr. Pollack said. "But he believes that an economically challenged American administration cannot afford to jeopardize $10 billion worth of jobs."

If the United States stops the sales, Mr. Pollack said, Mr. Maliki "would simply get his weapons elsewhere."

Copyright © 2011 The New York Times
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 29, 2011, 06:10:30 AM
The future Islamic Revolutionary Republic of Iraq appreciates the help.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Caliga on December 29, 2011, 07:42:00 AM
Mission Accomplished. :cool:
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Razgovory on December 29, 2011, 08:18:46 AM
Really, what do you expect Timmay?  We knew this was going to happen way back in 2004 at the latest.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: DGuller on December 29, 2011, 09:55:10 AM
Hopefully Kurds and Sunnis will get a similar deal, to stimulate more demand in the future.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: alfred russel on December 29, 2011, 10:06:19 AM
At least the defense industry has profited from the invasion of Iraq.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Ender on December 29, 2011, 10:19:55 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2011, 10:06:19 AM
At least the defense industry has profited from the invasion of Iraq.

Somebody always profits. The companies involved in the reconstruction of Iraq also got a sweet deal.
Too bad the oil went to the chinese, though.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: derspiess on December 29, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Camerus on December 29, 2011, 01:25:16 PM
At least someone is buying American still.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: lustindarkness on December 29, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
Again.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2011, 07:42:00 AM
Mission Accomplished. :cool:


And I STILL don't have my oil. I want some oil, dammit.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: lustindarkness on December 29, 2011, 03:01:14 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2011, 07:42:00 AM
Mission Accomplished. :cool:


And I STILL don't have my oil. I want some oil, dammit.

:yes:
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: mongers on December 29, 2011, 03:53:26 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2011, 10:06:19 AM
At least the defense industry has profited from the invasion of Iraq.

Problem with this is, many on the left, the right wing fringe and most conspiracy nutbars, won't get the joke, they think that really is how the world works; "see America went to war so they can make huge profits from arms sales", they don't get that Iraq has been a foreign policy disaster for the US and it's pissed away huge quantities of imperial treasure in the process.

They just see the headline and equate starting/fighting wars with how has USA come to dominate the world.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Razgovory on December 29, 2011, 08:16:35 PM
We should put a restriction that the weapons can only be used on other Iraqis.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Caliga on December 29, 2011, 08:22:41 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
And I STILL don't have my oil. I want some oil, dammit.
Yeah, I forgot about that... weren't we supposed to rape Iraq of its resources?  I mean, what else was the fucking point of all that shit? :hmm:
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Ed Anger on December 29, 2011, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2011, 08:22:41 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
And I STILL don't have my oil. I want some oil, dammit.
Yeah, I forgot about that... weren't we supposed to rape Iraq of its resources?  I mean, what else was the fucking point of all that shit? :hmm:

We did get a good Saddam snuff video. And his D&D art.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 30, 2011, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 29, 2011, 03:53:26 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2011, 10:06:19 AM
At least the defense industry has profited from the invasion of Iraq.

Problem with this is, many on the left, the right wing fringe and most conspiracy nutbars, won't get the joke, they think that really is how the world works; "see America went to war so they can make huge profits from arms sales", they don't get that Iraq has been a foreign policy disaster for the US and it's pissed away huge quantities of imperial treasure in the process.

They just see the headline and equate starting/fighting wars with how has USA come to dominate the world.

Thousands of American and allied soldiers dead, hundreds of millions of dollars unaccounted for by Iraqi corruption and contractor malfeasance, the strategic political realignment of the region in favor of Tehran, the perpetuation of the myth that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, international credibility for direct intervention for real nonproliferation threats totally pissed away with manufactured bullshit, and the best part is nobody will ever go to jail.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 12:19:56 AM
We collapsed a fascist government.  Everything else is pretty tangential.

(Except for not properly funding it. -_- )
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: The Brain on December 30, 2011, 03:11:19 AM
The true face of America was revealed. And it was retarded.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 03:51:07 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 30, 2011, 12:05:21 AMThousands of American and allied soldiers dead, hundreds of millions of dollars unaccounted for by Iraqi corruption and contractor malfeasance, the strategic political realignment of the region in favor of Tehran, the perpetuation of the myth that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, international credibility for direct intervention for real nonproliferation threats totally pissed away with manufactured bullshit, and the best part is nobody will ever go to jail.

Now, now. Let's not be so pessimistic. The overemotional gay soldier who told all of this to wikileaks will probably go to jail. :)
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 03:51:38 AM
Quote from: The Brain on December 30, 2011, 03:11:19 AM
The true face of America was revealed. And it was retarded.
:homestar:
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 30, 2011, 07:06:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 30, 2011, 03:51:07 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 30, 2011, 12:05:21 AMThousands of American and allied soldiers dead, hundreds of millions of dollars unaccounted for by Iraqi corruption and contractor malfeasance, the strategic political realignment of the region in favor of Tehran, the perpetuation of the myth that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, international credibility for direct intervention for real nonproliferation threats totally pissed away with manufactured bullshit, and the best part is nobody will ever go to jail.

Now, now. Let's not be so pessimistic. The overemotional gay soldier who told all of this to wikileaks will probably go to jail. :)

Let's hear it for little victories.

If he had half a brain, he'd know we already knew all of this by watching Bill Maher.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
See, now here's the problem.  Manning is going to jail, but he's not going to get the execution that he most richly deserves.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Zoupa on December 30, 2011, 08:19:06 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Damned because the folks in charge of OIF were totally fucking clueless in 03-04.

LET'S DISBAND THE IRAQI ARMY

LULZ OK

Your Arkansas boys will be back within 15 years to get torn up in the sand. Again.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Neil on December 30, 2011, 09:03:21 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 30, 2011, 08:19:06 PM
Your Arkansas boys will be back within 15 years to get torn up in the sand. Again.
I rather doubt it.  The Crash pretty much ended the US as a world power.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Neil on December 31, 2011, 12:29:36 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.
That's actually rather expensive.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: citizen k on December 31, 2011, 01:30:13 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.

It would cost the U.S. the respect of Europe and the rest of the world community.

Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: sbr on December 31, 2011, 01:36:47 AM
Quote from: citizen k on December 31, 2011, 01:30:13 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.

It would cost the U.S. the respect of Europe and the rest of the world community.

Do we have any of that anymore?
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Neil on December 31, 2011, 10:12:21 AM
Quote from: citizen k on December 31, 2011, 01:30:13 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.
It would cost the U.S. the respect of Europe and the rest of the world community.
They don't have that.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Ideologue on December 31, 2011, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 31, 2011, 12:29:36 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.
That's actually rather expensive.

Well, technically, but we've already spent the money.  It may actually save in the long run because you no longer have to spend on maintenance; it's certainly cheaper and decommissioning.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Neil on December 31, 2011, 07:28:43 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 31, 2011, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 31, 2011, 12:29:36 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 30, 2011, 10:10:49 PM
It doesn't cost anything to turn a city into trinitite though.  I'm just throwing it out as an option.
That's actually rather expensive.
Well, technically, but we've already spent the money.  It may actually save in the long run because you no longer have to spend on maintenance; it's certainly cheaper and decommissioning.
Delivery costs money.
Title: Re: Arming a 'sectarian army'? US pushes ahead with $11 billion Iraq weapons deal
Post by: Razgovory on December 31, 2011, 10:30:57 PM
We'll just have UPS do it.