http://news.yahoo.com/berlusconi-resign-parliament-oks-reforms-190121172.html
QuotePremier Silvio Berlusconi promised Tuesday to resign after parliament passes economic reforms demanded by the European Union, capping a two-decade political career that has ended with Italy on the brink of being swept into Europe's debt crisis.
Italian President Giorgio Napolitano met for about an hour with Berlusconi after the premier lost his parliamentary majority during a routine vote earlier Tuesday. In a statement, Napolitano's office said Berlusconi had promised during the meeting to resign once the economic reforms have passed parliament.
A vote on the measures is planned for next week.
No more Cavaliere. :(
I thought he said yesterday he was not going to resign.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2011, 03:34:18 PM
I thought he said yesterday he was not going to resign.
He got crushed today on the vote to confirm his majority.
No more bunga bunga. :(
Quote from: JonasSalk on November 08, 2011, 03:38:36 PM
No more bunga bunga. :(
He can retire to Capri for more bunga bunga.
Does his immunity expire?
Maybe he'll flee to Russia.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2011, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: Drakken on November 08, 2011, 03:48:24 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2011, 03:47:39 PM
Does his immunity expire?
IIRC, it does.
Will he lead his legions across the Rubicon?
googling "bunga bunga lorica segmentata" didn't yield any results.. so no pics follow, but history nerds already have the image in their head that I hoped to post here.
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
googling "bunga bunga lorica segmentata" didn't yield any results.. so no pics follow, but history nerds already have the image in their head that I hoped to post here.
:lol:
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2011, 03:47:39 PM
Does his immunity expire?
Yes, but only on the crimes that he isn't already being prosecuted for (underage prostitution) or that he hasn't tailored the statute of limitations.
This is...unexpected. But interesting. Wonder if Italy will get competent government from now on....or just Berlusconi 2.
My money is more on the latter.
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2011, 11:09:10 PM
This is...unexpected. But interesting. Wonder if Italy will get competent government from now on....or just Berlusconi 2.
My money is more on the latter.
He was rather competent wasn't he? I don't think he could have stayed on top so long if he wasn't.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2011, 11:10:37 PMHe was rather competent wasn't he? I don't think he could have stayed on top so long if he wasn't.
I think it depends what you mean by competent. From what I understand he kept things going, at best, in Italy but did manage to pass an array of laws that helped his own personal and business interests.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2011, 11:09:10 PM
This is...unexpected. But interesting. Wonder if Italy will get competent government from now on....or just Berlusconi 2.
My money is more on the latter.
He was rather competent wasn't he? I don't think he could have stayed on top so long if he wasn't.
You seriously aren't that naive are you?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2011, 11:09:10 PM
This is...unexpected. But interesting. Wonder if Italy will get competent government from now on....or just Berlusconi 2.
My money is more on the latter.
He was rather competent wasn't he? I don't think he could have stayed on top so long if he wasn't.
Telling the stories using only "The Economist" Covers
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(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newnotizie.it%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F12%2Fbasta_berlusconi_economist.jpg&hash=77f8d1a84f9200ad74c5b7b306cbcc0985652cab)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.i-italy.org%2Ffiles%2F14image%2Feconomist%2Feconomist1.jpg&hash=10f04284e71874f3ef8831c20f69f3943ee58f98)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftheitalianist.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F06%2Fberlusconi-economist-20080419.jpg&hash=c23427165926ab6c64448524cfc6278d094b18a4)
and my personal favorite.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmbf.blogs.com%2F.a%2F6a00d83451ba1e69e201538f1b3d31970b-500wi&hash=b0e6e6b4bb706d9679761c3453dbcddf7d76a341)
The Man Who Screwed and Entire Country (http://www.economist.com/node/18805327)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
He was rather competent wasn't he? I don't think he could have stayed on top so long if he wasn't.
I'm actually struggling to think of a more consistently incompetent leader of a major western country since the war.
Quote from: Gups on November 09, 2011, 08:14:08 AM
I'm actually struggling to think of a more consistently incompetent leader of a major western country since the war.
Really? Italy's macro policies have been reasonable. I can't think of any truly dumbass economic policies.
The only thing I can think of that Italy botched on his watch was that chica journalista ransom and getaway into an American roadblock.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2011, 08:20:18 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 09, 2011, 08:14:08 AM
I'm actually struggling to think of a more consistently incompetent leader of a major western country since the war.
Really? Italy's macro policies have been reasonable. I can't think of any truly dumbass economic policies.
The only thing I can think of that Italy botched on his watch was that chica journalista ransom and getaway into an American roadblock.
I refer you to the Dow Jones' view on Berlusconi's leadership.
Markets Turn Higher After Berlusconi Offers to Resign (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/business/daily-stock-market-activity.html?_r=1)
QuoteStocks gyrated Tuesday before ending higher on a day of significant political developments in Italy, the latest country to come under fire in the drawn-out euro zone debt crisis.
Powered by an early rally in Europe, the stock market in the United States rose slightly before a budget vote in Italy that had taken on immense importance for the prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, after the recent defections of several lawmakers in his party. It passed with numerous abstentions, but Mr. Berlusconi lost his absolute majority.
Stocks then declined or were flat in afternoon trading until about two hours before the end of the session, when news that Mr. Berlusconi had offered to resign — after Parliament passes an austerity package — first emerged.
The Dow Jones industrial average closed up 0.84 percent, or 101.79 points, to 12,170. The broader Standard & Poor's 500-stock index was up 1.17 percent to 1,276, and the technology-heavy Nasdaq composite index was up 1.2 percent to 2,727.
There were no big reactions in credit markets, however. Italian 10-year bonds remained above their 6.7 percent yield, close to the level that forced other countries such as Greece to seek bailouts.
Investors have long been concerned that the debt ills in some of the smaller euro zone nations could spread to those with much bigger economies, a contagion that would be much harder to fix. They have been focusing on Italy of late because of concern about its high debt load, rising borrowing costs and stagnant economy. Interest rates on the country's debt have hit their highest levels since the country joined the euro zone more than a decade ago.
"With all of the debt they have to roll over it is extremely detrimental," said Laura LaRosa, the director of fixed income at Glenmede, adding that the "domino effect" is "absolutely what seems to be happening now."
The Treasury's benchmark 10-year note fell 17/32, to 100 13/32, and the yield rose to 2.08 percent from 2.02 percent late Monday.
Earlier in Europe, stocks closed higher. The Euro Stoxx 50 index, a barometer of euro zone blue chips, was up 1.2 percent. The German DAX was up 0.6 percent and the CAC 40 in Paris rose 1.3 percent. The FTSE 100 index in London was 1 percent higher.
"The equity markets are generally rallying in Europe because they are hopeful resolving the political crisis is a necessary solution to resolving the European crisis," said Jürgen Odenius, the chief economist at Prudential Fixed Income.
"The bond market remains bearish on this issue," he added.
The euro was $1.3839, compared with $1.3758 on Monday.
Elisabetta Povoledo and Rachel Donadio contributed reporting.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2011, 08:20:18 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 09, 2011, 08:14:08 AM
I'm actually struggling to think of a more consistently incompetent leader of a major western country since the war.
Really? Italy's macro policies have been reasonable. I can't think of any truly dumbass economic policies.
The only thing I can think of that Italy botched on his watch was that chica journalista ransom and getaway into an American roadblock.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F40%2FGDP_per_capita_big_four_Western_Europe.PNG%2F800px-GDP_per_capita_big_four_Western_Europe.PNG&hash=a98f0ed1d3a8b810e29ff5cd673d57fb2ff10424)
Berlosconi has been in charge since 2001 (and for a year or two in the late 90s). Italy stagnated between 2001 and 2007 while most of the west saw decent growth and it's fallen off a cliff faster than anoyone else. He's built up a huge debt and had done nothing about the sturctural problems in the Italian economy.
Quote from: Viking on November 09, 2011, 08:34:49 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 09, 2011, 08:20:18 AM
I refer you to the Dow Jones' view on Berlusconi's leadership.
I guess markets are conflicted. I came here to post that with yields surging over 7% on Italian debt, the markets think Berlusconi is the best leader Italy is going to get. Which may be damning with faint praise. :lol:
Quote from: alfred russel on November 09, 2011, 10:50:44 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 09, 2011, 08:34:49 AM
I refer you to the Dow Jones' view on Berlusconi's leadership.
I guess markets are conflicted. I came here to post that with yields surging over 7% on Italian debt, the markets think Berlusconi is the best leader Italy is going to get. Which may be damning with faint praise. :lol:
I think It's more a case of the markets realizing that whatever was necessary to get Silvio to resign is something that they aren't factoring into the price of Italian debt given that they are still lending Italy money. Or... they see this as the first step towards a 50% default like Greece.
Doesn't help that he's pulling a Mubarak. 'I'll resign after passing essential reforms. Honest.' This also doesn't increase sense of stability at all.
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
googling "bunga bunga lorica segmentata" didn't yield any results.. so no pics follow, but history nerds already have the image in their head that I hoped to post here.
A
Sopranos episode had Tony engaging in bunga bunga lorica segmentata. :homestar:
Quote from: Habbaku on November 09, 2011, 11:54:41 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 08, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
googling "bunga bunga lorica segmentata" didn't yield any results.. so no pics follow, but history nerds already have the image in their head that I hoped to post here.
A Sopranos episode had Tony engaging in bunga bunga lorica segmentata. :homestar:
oh, yes, I remember that....
At least the trains ran on time. Or did they?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 09, 2011, 01:12:39 PM
At least the trains ran on time. Or did they?
Sadly, no. It was just PR.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 08, 2011, 11:29:29 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 08, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 08, 2011, 11:09:10 PM
This is...unexpected. But interesting. Wonder if Italy will get competent government from now on....or just Berlusconi 2.
My money is more on the latter.
He was rather competent wasn't he? I don't think he could have stayed on top so long if he wasn't.
You seriously aren't that naive are you?
He certainly was a competent politician.
It's easy when you control most of the media in the country.
You are still talking about a PM in Italy which not so long ago had an history of cabinets falling every six months or so, French IIIrd Republic-style.
That he held out for so long despite scandals, attempted prosecutions, his proximity to neo-fascist movements, and a lack of proactive platform, I'm willing to consider he was a competent politician and power-broker.
Or simply a gangster.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 10, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
Or simply a gangster.
Perhaps competent has a different definition in the seduction community.
Silvio's a pimp. A P.I.M.P. literally. And of course a crooked mafiosi as well.
Quote from: Drakken on November 10, 2011, 09:51:31 AM
You are still talking about a PM in Italy which not so long ago had an history of cabinets falling every six months or so, French IIIrd Republic-style.
That he held out for so long despite scandals, attempted prosecutions, his proximity to neo-fascist movements, and a lack of proactive platform, I'm willing to consider he was a competent politician and power-broker.
Italian governments didn't fall though. They were actually pretty stable. I think the Christian Democrats with some partners were in power for almost the entire post-war period. The factions within those parties would move their support around and there'd be musical chairs based on who could do enough to guarantee the support of most factions at any given point (Andreotti was, of course, particularly adept at this). That system, I think, fell apart in the tagentopoli scandal that destroyed post-war Italian politics. It was in that conflagration that Berlusconi emerged as a political figure. I don't think his own methods of making a party and buying the support of the neo-fascists (weirdly their old leader is now a centre-right critic of Berlusconi and the rest were absorbed into Berlusconi's party) were much cleaner.
Having said all that there's no doubt he was an effective politician, he won elections and has survived a few hundred no-confidence votes. That doesn't mean he's been a competent Prime Minister though.
Apparently Mario Monti was appointed a Senator for Life last night so it looks like he'll be Italy's technocratic saviour.
Has Italy ever considered some kind of financial incentive to have larger families? I know Russia is doing something along these lines-albeit haphazardly and incompetently. It will be interesting to see how dysfunctional Med countries deal with collapsing birth rates when they aren't as likely to draw talented immigrants.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 04:00:25 PM
Has Italy ever considered some kind of financial incentive to have larger families? I know Russia is doing something along these lines-albeit haphazardly and incompetently. It will be interesting to see how dysfunctional Med countries deal with collapsing birth rates when they aren't as likely to draw talented immigrants.
God, what a tard you are.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 04:00:25 PM
Has Italy ever considered some kind of financial incentive to have larger families? I know Russia is doing something along these lines-albeit haphazardly and incompetently. It will be interesting to see how dysfunctional Med countries deal with collapsing birth rates when they aren't as likely to draw talented immigrants.
I think they gave away medals for women who had lots of children in the 30's.
Quote from: Gups on November 09, 2011, 09:42:45 AM
Berlosconi has been in charge since 2001 (and for a year or two in the late 90s). Italy stagnated between 2001 and 2007 while most of the west saw decent growth and it's fallen off a cliff faster than anoyone else. He's built up a huge debt and had done nothing about the sturctural problems in the Italian economy.
According to the Economist I think in the past decade only Haiti and Somalia have had slower growth than Italy.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 04:00:25 PM
Has Italy ever considered some kind of financial incentive to have larger families? I know Russia is doing something along these lines-albeit haphazardly and incompetently. It will be interesting to see how dysfunctional Med countries deal with collapsing birth rates when they aren't as likely to draw talented immigrants.
You can get talented immigrants? What, Sweden shouldn't have picked hundreds of thousands of unskilled Muselmen? :unsure:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 12, 2011, 06:26:03 PM
Quote from: Gups on November 09, 2011, 09:42:45 AM
Berlosconi has been in charge since 2001 (and for a year or two in the late 90s). Italy stagnated between 2001 and 2007 while most of the west saw decent growth and it's fallen off a cliff faster than anoyone else. He's built up a huge debt and had done nothing about the sturctural problems in the Italian economy.
According to the Economist I think in the past decade only Haiti and Somalia have had slower growth than Italy.
Wow. that's pretty bad.
And it has happened. I can hardly believe it.
QuoteItaly crisis: Silvio Berlusconi resigns as PM
Silvio Berlusconi has resigned as prime minister of Italy, after dominating the country's politics for 17 years.
President Giorgio Napolitano accepted his offer and is likely to appoint technocrat Mario Monti his successor.
Quote from: Martinus on November 12, 2011, 06:24:48 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 04:00:25 PM
Has Italy ever considered some kind of financial incentive to have larger families? I know Russia is doing something along these lines-albeit haphazardly and incompetently. It will be interesting to see how dysfunctional Med countries deal with collapsing birth rates when they aren't as likely to draw talented immigrants.
God, what a tard you are.
How do you expect to support any kind of welfare state with a rapidly declining population without immigration? How do you expect to have a growing economy when every worker is supporting a retiree, let alone a bloated bureaucracy like Italy, or a hostility to new business? How do you expect to draw talented immigrants with a totally stalled economy and hostility towards immigrants? I don't see Italy finding a way out of this easily. If you could grace us with your brilliant insight in to the limitless potential of the Italian economy, please share with the class, Marty.
Russia is trying to deal with it through ham-fisted subsidies to new parents, most of the English speaking world is succeeding in drawing talented immigrants, but I don't think any Southern European nation is.
Quote
You can get talented immigrants? What, Sweden shouldn't have picked hundreds of thousands of unskilled Muselmen?
:lol:
When I think of immigrants, I tend to think of Chinese PhD students because there are so many on campus. How many Europeans think of that?
You don't have to increase the population forever to support retirees. Just make them retire later, which is only logical since people live much longer now.
As for the other thing, we have a hard enough time keeping our very own scientists, mostly because the ingrate bastards don't like to work for peanuts per saecula saeculorum.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 12, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
You don't have to increase the population forever to support retirees. Just make them retire later, which is only logical since people live much longer now.
As for the other thing, we have a hard enough time keeping our very own scientists, mostly because the ingrate bastards don't like to work for peanuts per saecula saeculorum.
The problem is that even though people live longer, they are often not fit to work.
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Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 08:22:54 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 12, 2011, 06:24:48 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2011, 04:00:25 PM
Has Italy ever considered some kind of financial incentive to have larger families? I know Russia is doing something along these lines-albeit haphazardly and incompetently. It will be interesting to see how dysfunctional Med countries deal with collapsing birth rates when they aren't as likely to draw talented immigrants.
God, what a tard you are.
How do you expect to support any kind of welfare state with a rapidly declining population without immigration? How do you expect to have a growing economy when every worker is supporting a retiree, let alone a bloated bureaucracy like Italy, or a hostility to new business? How do you expect to draw talented immigrants with a totally stalled economy and hostility towards immigrants? I don't see Italy finding a way out of this easily. If you could grace us with your brilliant insight in to the limitless potential of the Italian economy, please share with the class, Marty.
Russia is trying to deal with it through ham-fisted subsidies to new parents, most of the English speaking world is succeeding in drawing talented immigrants, but I don't think any Southern European nation is.
Quote
You can get talented immigrants? What, Sweden shouldn't have picked hundreds of thousands of unskilled Muselmen?
:lol:
When I think of immigrants, I tend to think of Chinese PhD students because there are so many on campus. How many Europeans think of that?
Your first mistake is to even consider looking to Russia for viable policies. But we know you are a Russophile cretin.
Now, having got that out of the way, "financial incentives" to have children are counterproductive because they largely don't work or work only for exactly the type of people you do not want to have kids (like the poor and irresponsible ones).
In post-patriarchal societies, getting out of male dominance, like Italy (or Poland), the biggest cause for decreasing birth rates is that they adopted a dysfunctional model of "gender equality" that forces educated middle class women (i.e. exactly the demographics you want to reproduce) to choose between career (and financial stability) and parenthood (which means reliance on men for sustenance). You increase birth rates in such societies not by giving people handouts, but by creating the environment (both in terms of legal protection and infrastructure/facilities, like day care) to allow women to share career and parenthood.
Edit: Just to clarify, I did not meant to imply that gender equality is dysfunctional. :P Just that a "on paper" gender equality that is not supported by a system of legal and infrastructural changes that adapts working conditions to parenthood (the way Scandinavians, Germans and the Dutch have done) is dysfunctional because it presents women with a devil's choice.
So how is your plan coming along Marty?
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2011, 07:12:41 PM
And it has happened. I can hardly believe it.
QuoteItaly crisis: Silvio Berlusconi resigns as PM
Silvio Berlusconi has resigned as prime minister of Italy, after dominating the country's politics for 17 years.
President Giorgio Napolitano accepted his offer and is likely to appoint technocrat Mario Monti his successor.
He'll be back.
Quote from: Caliga on November 13, 2011, 09:41:18 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 12, 2011, 07:12:41 PM
And it has happened. I can hardly believe it.
QuoteItaly crisis: Silvio Berlusconi resigns as PM
Silvio Berlusconi has resigned as prime minister of Italy, after dominating the country's politics for 17 years.
President Giorgio Napolitano accepted his offer and is likely to appoint technocrat Mario Monti his successor.
He'll be back.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-uO-ZXvR-mk4%2FTZXdYOiJwyI%2FAAAAAAAABsw%2F7mmhhghnb54%2Fs1600%2Fberlusconi-terminator.jpg&hash=a7abb65b92c795d79594c88445d390a0ecaa8551)
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Quote from: Caliga on November 13, 2011, 09:41:18 AMHe'll be back.
Jesus, you could be right:
QuoteSilvio Berlusconi hints at comeback as Italy tries to form new government
Italy's president begins consultations while Berlusconi tells supporters: 'I hope to resume the path of government'
As Italy's president, Giorgio Napolitano, began hurried consultations on the formation of a new government, Silvio Berlusconi sent a clear message that he intends to return to power.
The first politician summoned by the head of state arrived at the presidential palace at 9am sharp on the morning after Berlusconi was jeered and booed from office there by an exultant crowd of more than 1,000 people.
In a final humiliation, the 75-year-old billionaire, whose government has led Italy to the very brink of financial catastrophe, dodged out of the palace by a side door after submitting his resignation.
But in a message sent to a meeting of a party of neofascist diehards, La Destra, the TV magnate said: "I share your spirit and I hope to resume with you the path of government."
Mario Monti, the economist expected to take Berlusconi's place later on Sunday, made no comment on the send-off given to the outgoing prime minister.
Instead, in response to questions from reporters outside his hotel, he looked up at the clear blue sky and said: "Have you seen what a splendid day it is?"
Monti and his wife, Elsa, then set off for mass – a first, eloquent sign he intends to put behind him the Italy of "bunga bunga" parties and showgirl politicians.
But the showgirls will stay in parliament until the next election, and the attitudes with which Berlusconi imbued the nation will not disappear overnight.
The morning news on the first channel of the state-owned RAI radio network carried a report on the shenanigans outside the presidential palace from which the insults hurled at Berlusconi – "buffoon" and even "mafioso" – were tactfully omitted.
On Saturday, parliament cleared the way for the fall of his government by giving final approval to a package of economic reforms and deficit-reduction measures agreed last month with the EU to stem mounting panic over Italy's ability to repay its €1.9tn (£1.6tn) public debts.
After Berlusconi delayed his resignation, raising fears he might try to cling to power, the interest rate on Italy's government bonds shot above 7% to a level no eurozone state has reached without subsequently needing a bailout.
The consultations held to form a new government in Italy often take a week or more. But Napolitano was aiming to complete them by evening.
The markets' reaction to a Monti government is likely to depend largely on what conditions, if any, Berlusconi's party succeeds in attaching to it. Many in the Freedom People movement would have preferred a snap election which the right, notwithstanding Berlusconi's unpopularity, would stand a good chance of winning.
The People of Freedom party delegates attending the talks with Napolitano can be expected to press for the incoming administration to be constrained by a strict programme, limited to the implementation of the economic package agreed with Brussels, and a deadline for its completion.
According to some reports, the party's representatives may also demand a seat in the cabinet for Berlusconi's right-hand man, Gianni Letta, a former newspaper editor and executive in the media mogul's TV group.
The bitter divisions in Italian politics that are another aspect of Berlusconi's legacy prevented a cross-party grand coalition.
The only career politician thought likely to sit in the new cabinet is Giuliano Amato, as foreign minister. Amato, a socialist, was Italy's prime minister from 1992 to 1993 and from 2000 to 2001.
The all-important job of finance minister was expected to go to Guido Tabellini, the rector of the Bocconi University in Milan, which has supplied Italy with much of its financial elite. Monti both studied and taught there.
Quote
In post-patriarchal societies, getting out of male dominance, like Italy (or Poland), the biggest cause for decreasing birth rates is that they adopted a dysfunctional model of "gender equality" that forces educated middle class women (i.e. exactly the demographics you want to reproduce) to choose between career (and financial stability) and parenthood (which means reliance on men for sustenance). You increase birth rates in such societies not by giving people handouts, but by creating the environment (both in terms of legal protection and infrastructure/facilities, like day care) to allow women to share career and parenthood.
I actually don't disagree with anything you wrote. I know enough about the reasons behind declining birth rates in Eastern and Southern Europe to know that it has far more to do with gender norms. I was just wondering how Italy is going to deal with declining birth rates. I doubt we will see a full-scale readjustment of sexual norms there any time in the next twenty years. Russia's measures are haphazard and largely ineffectual, but that sounds pretty Italian to me.
So...interesting developments...a technocracy....has such a thing ever been done?
QuoteJesus, you could be right:
I don't disagree with the crux of that article, Silvio sucks and everyone is glad to see him go...but....blimey. Biased much?
My name's not Jesus but I'll tolerate being worshipped if you so choose. :)
Quote from: Tyr on November 13, 2011, 10:12:00 PM
So...interesting developments...a technocracy....has such a thing ever been done?
It's how Berlusconi's first time as PM ended :lol:
Quote from: Tyr on November 13, 2011, 10:12:00 PM
So...interesting developments...a technocracy....has such a thing ever been done?
Franco's Spain was run by technocrats after the autarky pursued by earlier fascist governments proved disastrous.
Quote from: Iormlund on November 14, 2011, 12:29:54 PM
Quote from: Tyr on November 13, 2011, 10:12:00 PM
So...interesting developments...a technocracy....has such a thing ever been done?
Franco's Spain was run by technocrats after the autarky pursued by earlier fascist governments proved disastrous.
But then again Pinochet invited Milton Friedman down to Santiago and that turned out better than expected.
Quote from: Martinus on November 13, 2011, 04:36:46 AM
Now, having got that out of the way, "financial incentives" to have children are counterproductive because they largely don't work or work only for exactly the type of people you do not want to have kids (like the poor and irresponsible ones).
I think you're mistaken on this. Financial incentives can be very effective at helping to increase fertility - because having children is enormously expensive, not only in the direct costs (food, clothing, childcare) but in terms of lost income opportunities. I think however that was has been shown is that financial incentives have to be quite substantial in order to be effective.
Also - the children of the poor and irresponsible often grow up to be middle class and responsible.
QuoteI think you're mistaken on this. Financial incentives can be very effective at helping to increase fertility - because having children is enormously expensive, not only in the direct costs (food, clothing, childcare) but in terms of lost income opportunities. I think however that was has been shown is that financial incentives have to be quite substantial in order to be effective.
Also - the children of the poor and irresponsible often grow up to be middle class and responsible.
Some do, there are always the lucky ones who break out of the cycle of breeding and unemployment. The majority however do not.
But yes, the government can really help with getting people to have kids. Sweden IIRC has a much higher birth rate than most due to all the perks like paternity leave, great daycare, etc...
These aren't strictly financial however....the trouble with financial incentives is that a lot of the non-working class do go for them. Many a time you hear of teenage charvas speaking of wanting to have a kid so they can have a free hundred quid a month from the government (or however much it is), to middle class people such an amount of money is nothing. Even to my working class parents it was just a bit of handy extra help, not really anything worth having a kid for- to the poor and stupid though....
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 14, 2011, 05:17:11 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 13, 2011, 10:12:00 PM
So...interesting developments...a technocracy....has such a thing ever been done?
It's how Berlusconi's first time as PM ended :lol:
Ouch
Quote from: Tyr on November 14, 2011, 08:40:28 PMMany a time you hear of teenage charvas speaking of wanting to have a kid so they can have a free hundred quid a month from the government (or however much it is)
This is something you personally often hear, or just the kind of thing you've heard repeated enough that you assume it must be true?
Quote from: Jacob on November 15, 2011, 01:41:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 14, 2011, 08:40:28 PMMany a time you hear of teenage charvas speaking of wanting to have a kid so they can have a free hundred quid a month from the government (or however much it is)
This is something you personally often hear, or just the kind of thing you've heard repeated enough that you assume it must be true?
These days I tend not to hear it so often, but when I was at school yes, I did hear it a number of times. And parents and other folk who I trust mention hearing some girls saying that kind of thing too.