So I've started this up again after reading a MP thread about a finished CK game, which they converted to EU3 and then game then died. But, still, I felt myself inspired, so I found my self my old copy of CK upgraded to DV and got started. Needless to say I fell into the get some BB get revolting minons, who get annexed giving me more BB giving me more revolts. Each revolt causes a drop in prestige...
needless to say, I managed to make myself Emperor and withing 10 years (that was quick) my emperor was hated throughout the world, each province had revolted twice (at least), my prestige was at -20k and I sent out my emperor on suicide mission on the grounds that the heir was not as hated... he didn't die... meh..
the turks went to war and my vassals (which the turks start with claims over) kept surrendering far behind my lines resulting in me defeating the turkish armies on the frontier only to see central anatolia and ionia going turkish as my vassals allowed themselves to be annexed.. so a few points, questions...
1 - How do you prepare heirs, I tried giving my heir all my duchy titles and a sizable demsgne, but that only resulted in, when his vassals revolted all his duchy titles just meant that his prestige fell to -4k and his personality became really shitty as he went around executing former vassals for treason.
2 - Is there ANY reason to give away duchy titles to anybody other than your heir presumtive or to arrange for that talented youngster to become your heir? Dukes seem to revolt just as often as Counts, it's just that County level revolts are easier to put down.
3 - I figured out how to keep the BB from putting down revolts to zero is to revassalize revolters and concede their own claims on their own territory. (1 BB for vassalizing, -1 BB for revoking a claim) If I get this right the ideal size for a county is larger than 1 since each revolter in that case can reduce BB (1 BB for vassalizing, -1 BB per province for revoking claims). Note, you get those claims right back when you vassalize them. Obviously this can't be done successfully for vassals with personality problems (unless I want them to revolt each year to reduce my BB quicker)
Basically I want some tips on BB, Prestige, Piety and Vassal management. I can figure out how they get and spend money.. (actually fighting war is frickin' expensive. I can figure out how to win wars as well keep a balanced budget while the enemy has a net income of -200 per month, then do a quick troop rush run at -800 occupy your targets then offer a peace deal (unless the troop rush can allow me to occupy all his demesgne).
BTW, for some Salic goodyness...
The Present King of France Reasonably good, age 29, has 5 daughters and no sons. He has 3 sisters, no brothers. So, there I am trying to figure out if a few strategically placed wars and/or assassinations can make me king of France. Soo.. I try to trace the first in line in his successors list (which it turns out I am not even close to), this boy, Foulques de Montoire (Age 2) is son of the Steward of France (who has no line up through men to any King in this game). His mother however, was 2nd cousin to the previous King of France, her mother was first cousin to the previous king of france, her mother was sister to the present king's grandfather, who was the oldest of three brothers, the decendents of whom are minor courtiers in the County of Badajoz pledging fealty to the French Crown.
How does this stewards son get to be king? I don't get it, but it's through his father, since he is her second son by her second husband. The Steward might just be randomly generated. All of this is very confusing... so basically it seems right now, if the queen of France's 6th kid is not a son, they are going to pick the next king of france by taking a random street urchin out of a random hovel.
Situations like this make me almost recommend Cosanguinity, since all you have to do is pick the best boy with the right name and give him titles and land.
Oh, yes, and the queen of France came into her marriage with a pre-existing bastard son...
And she just died in childbirth... hmm... should I hitch him up with an ancient crone from my court... or a lithe little de'Normandie daughter?
meh, blythe little Isabella de'Normandie, second daughter of the king of england was married off to some no-name son of a refugee from an arab court name Alphonse Salah who got her just so I could keep Isabella's 17 Intrigue rating as Spy Master.
this is fucking addictive...
I'm starting to feel sorry for him
Wife 1 Dukes Daughter (includes one previous bastard) - 5 daughters, then death in childbirth
Wife 2 Count's Daughter - death in childbirth
Wife 3 Courtier's Daughter -
Drat... Phillip Capet has been born... groan...
Quote from: Viking on September 29, 2011, 12:08:08 AM
Basically I want some tips on BB, Prestige, Piety and Vassal management.
For BB, you found it. Revassalize while conceding your claims on their lands will drop BB.
For prestige, you want to go to war against someone with a claim on your highest title (revolters work well here), then make a peace where you do *not* force them to give up that claim. The prestige gain will be astronomical (10s of 1000s).
For vassal management, it's usually not that big a deal. I prefer to keep my vassals as 2 province counts. Sure, they revolt constantly, but it only takes 2 seconds to conquer them.
Quote from: Viking on September 29, 2011, 12:08:08 AM
I can figure out how to win wars as well keep a balanced budget while the enemy has a net income of -200 per month, then do a quick troop rush run at -800 occupy your targets then offer a peace deal (unless the troop rush can allow me to occupy all his demesgne).
In CK, there's really no good way to win a war other than by occupying all the enemy's demense.
I'm wondering if I need to reinstall my copy. Ever since I got DV, I typically can't re-vassilize anyone - I've run into that bug that I know was gotten rid of - where vassalizing someone makes you their vassal. :(
Quote from: garbon on September 29, 2011, 08:51:20 AM
I'm wondering if I need to reinstall my copy. Ever since I got DV, I typically can't re-vassilize anyone - I've run into that bug that I know was gotten rid of - where vassalizing someone makes you their vassal. :(
I'd try a reinstall...but that bug was never fixed for multiplayer, at least not completely.
Quote from: garbon on September 29, 2011, 08:51:20 AM
I'm wondering if I need to reinstall my copy. Ever since I got DV, I typically can't re-vassilize anyone - I've run into that bug that I know was gotten rid of - where vassalizing someone makes you their vassal. :(
Do you have 2.01beta installed?
No comments on keeping all the vassals counts while keeping all the duchy titles with the king and the heir vs. establishing duchies with real vassals. I want to know if there is any benefit to granting duchy titles to my county vassals?
You get more prestige for having Dukes as vassals. Also handing them out reduces your BB I think.
I usually wait until my reputation is bad then start handing out Duchies.
You can hand all your Duchy titles to your heir pretty immediately. The problem there is that with the latest patch giving your heir the dutchy of Milan will make all the counts in the geographical duchy his vassals. This opens your heir up to realm collapse in miniature. Something that needs fixing and often merely results in you having to revassalize the revolting duchies themselves. Duchies you can safely bestow are the ones fully covered by demesgne and non vassal territories.
I still want to hear if anybody knows of any reason for giving anybody other than your heir a duchy title?
Note, giving your heir a king title is much more self destructive. I don't mind that my godlike heir has me as his rival, but give that schmuck a king title and he will go to war with me.
I'd like to see a feature in the game where a the duchy title holder has claims on all the portions of the duchy (same for king) allowing for re-unifications after civil wars (as often happened during this period).
Quote from: Viking on September 29, 2011, 01:49:08 PM
I still want to hear if anybody knows of any reason for giving anybody other than your heir a duchy title?
Besides the stuff I already mentioned I also like it since I can have alot fewer vassals. That has helped me get through some bad rulers in pretty decent shape when I have 10 Dukes instead of 50 counts.
Quote from: Viking on September 29, 2011, 01:49:08 PM
I still want to hear if anybody knows of any reason for giving anybody other than your heir a duchy title?
I don't think there's any good reason. There is a miniscule prestige boost, but you're going to get your prestige from revolt management. As I noted above, I like 2-province counts for vassals.
And with salic consanguinity, there's no point in even giving an heir a duchy title.
Quote from: ulmont on September 29, 2011, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 29, 2011, 01:49:08 PM
I still want to hear if anybody knows of any reason for giving anybody other than your heir a duchy title?
I don't think there's any good reason. There is a miniscule prestige boost, but you're going to get your prestige from revolt management. As I noted above, I like 2-province counts for vassals.
And with salic consanguinity, there's no point in even giving an heir a duchy title.
Well, the heir that has the duchy gets a prestige boost for being a duke for a few years before becoming king, that must be good in some way....
BTW in DV no need for bridefinders and corpse purgers. Character stats are functions of random stats and development choices, so no benefit in finding the perfect bride for your little brat. Corpse purging apparently happens automatically, the end of month tick over pause is noticeable.
I finally found a reason to create duchies - the event chains for disloyalty events snowball, get one revolt, you get many more, if you have three times as many vassals you are three times as likely to get realm duress and once you get that trait collapse follows.
Quote from: Viking on October 01, 2011, 08:15:21 AM
I finally found a reason to create duchies - the event chains for disloyalty events snowball, get one revolt, you get many more, if you have three times as many vassals you are three times as likely to get realm duress and once you get that trait collapse follows.
Still not worth it. If each revolt is a 2-province count they take approximately 1 month to put down, so even with realm duress it's no big deal.
Quote from: ulmont on October 01, 2011, 09:30:33 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 01, 2011, 08:15:21 AM
I finally found a reason to create duchies - the event chains for disloyalty events snowball, get one revolt, you get many more, if you have three times as many vassals you are three times as likely to get realm duress and once you get that trait collapse follows.
Still not worth it. If each revolt is a 2-province count they take approximately 1 month to put down, so even with realm duress it's no big deal.
Each revolt is no big deal, yeah, but if you have 200 count vassals, once you get the realm duress trati, you might have 75-125 of them revolting at any one time.
Quote from: dps on October 01, 2011, 10:12:51 AM
Quote from: ulmont on October 01, 2011, 09:30:33 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 01, 2011, 08:15:21 AM
I finally found a reason to create duchies - the event chains for disloyalty events snowball, get one revolt, you get many more, if you have three times as many vassals you are three times as likely to get realm duress and once you get that trait collapse follows.
Still not worth it. If each revolt is a 2-province count they take approximately 1 month to put down, so even with realm duress it's no big deal.
Each revolt is no big deal, yeah, but if you have 200 count vassals, once you get the realm duress trati, you might have 75-125 of them revolting at any one time.
It's really not that bad.
Quote from: dps on October 01, 2011, 10:12:51 AM
Quote from: ulmont on October 01, 2011, 09:30:33 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 01, 2011, 08:15:21 AM
I finally found a reason to create duchies - the event chains for disloyalty events snowball, get one revolt, you get many more, if you have three times as many vassals you are three times as likely to get realm duress and once you get that trait collapse follows.
Still not worth it. If each revolt is a 2-province count they take approximately 1 month to put down, so even with realm duress it's no big deal.
Each revolt is no big deal, yeah, but if you have 200 count vassals, once you get the realm duress trati, you might have 75-125 of them revolting at any one time.
Yepp, after dutchyfying most of the empire, ruling everything from Pressburg to Palmyra starting as Dutchy of Antioch. I spend most of the time in Realm Duress and at Honourable Reputation. I have actually set aside a part of the syrian desert for two province mooslimb minors to which revolt once per year and get put down for a BB reduction once per year.
The question is if the Duchies will reduce my problems. The annoying thing is that any one count of no importance can provoke the realm duress event.
The preconditions for becoming rebellious is
1 - Somebody else is rebellious (Realm Duress) - this one is the killer.
2 - Somebody has the different religion. Purge the heretics and infidels.
3 - Vassal has high intrigue. 12 intrigue or more required for this.
4 - Liege over demesne limit - this one is also a bit of a killer since Realm Duress events give intrigue reducing traits reducing demesne size.
5 - Vassal is distance from liege, more than a few provinces away.
So, the idea is to make family members dukes, to keep them at 1.0 loyalty. Note vassals revolting from vassal dukes do not seem to provoke this... We'll see what happens.
It seems to me Realm Duress in DV isn't that big deal compared to CK 1.05
Quote from: szmik on October 01, 2011, 01:08:57 PM
It seems to me Realm Duress in DV isn't that big deal compared to CK 1.05
I gave up on being in the east, I tried the Guiscards. Within 10 years I got a major Byzantine invasion out of the blue, had my monarch assassinated, had my child king excommunicated and fell into realm duress.
Blitzing Salerno and Sicily happened pretty quickly, though after submitting to the emperor I had to re-DOW palermo 5 times (for 500 prestige hit) when the fucking emperor insisted on joining each war against palermo and accepting peace in exchange for 1 ducat each time.
I now remember why I quit this game many years ago.
Seems like you went too far too fast.
In my game I started with Count of Taranto and after becoming King of Sicily got almost all Spain, while King of Castille ruled Poland. :rolleyes:
All crusades were successful, by AI, which may be why Byzanteenes were pretty strong in that game. Got few counts in Middle East, but they all cut ties with me pretty quickly and reconquering them didn't change anything. New counts did the same, so I gave up holding them.
I ended up splitting my empire between sons so each became King. But they started fighting each other. :nelson:
I just reinstalled this. A couple of years ago I had a really good game going but something happened to it and I am hoping to recreate it. I went from Duke of Slovenia to King of Croatia to Byzantine Emperor. It was pretty entertaining to try and stay alive between Hungary, Germany and the Byzantines.
Quote from: szmik on October 01, 2011, 05:07:47 PM
Seems like you went too far too fast.
Yeah, I'm thinking the same. Never had half the problems Viking is describing when clawing my way to the top of the Emperorship.
Can you import a CK game into EU3 like you could your player characters in the Gold Box games?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on October 01, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
Can you import a CK game into EU3 like you could your player characters in the Gold Box games?
CK is so old the import is into EU2.
But the in-game import doesn't work all that well, the one time i tried it.
Quote from: Barrister on October 01, 2011, 10:07:26 PM
But the in-game import doesn't work all that well, the one time i tried it.
:yes:
They did some very crappy tag pairing.
What I didn't like about the game was that I kept having revolving door vassals. The would become disloyal, leave my country and in a few year rejoin. Only to go through the same process again. It was a annoying.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 02, 2011, 11:55:58 AM
What I didn't like about the game was that I kept having revolving door vassals. The would become disloyal, leave my country and in a few year rejoin. Only to go through the same process again. It was a annoying.
not in DV, where even with realm duress and bad reputation you can quite easily get your empire back as long as your coffers are full and you have good prestige
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on October 01, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
Can you import a CK game into EU3 like you could your player characters in the Gold Box games?
I'm almost positive someone made a converter for CK:DV to EU3:DW/HTTT/whatever.
You'll probably have to do some manual editing to clean things up a bit though.
So, Castille. Controlling Castille, Navarra and Toledo plus counties in about half the rest of Spain. Doing OK, 20k prestige, 100% loyalty everywhere slowly but surely grabbing unprotected title, annexing, granting and waiting for bb to fall. No revolts, good stability etc. Everybody happy, apart from Kniggots of Santiago who picked the auspicious moment of the annexation of the last mooselimb in spain to appear, get annexed, re-appear, get annexed, re-appear, get vassalizes, revolt, get annexed etc. Eventually they got the message. Still, merely entertainig. Now, the powers in Spain are Me: Castille+, Galicia (Galicia plus half of andalucia) and Porto (2/3 of portugal, rest galicia and me).
Castilian Kings don't seem to have enough kids since they keep campaigning against mooselimbs and two days after their marriage their wife hates them, finds a lover and cuckolds them. But, there are enough Heir running around so not really a problem. However, my heir was a count under Galicia. Galicia gets realm duress, he is the ONLY count to revolt, he gets annexed and gets -2000 prestige. He then runs off to a court in France to be unemployed. I'm baffled. He could be duke of Austurias and Leon (stats pretty decent) to get that prestige up, but nooo.. unemployment in france for this Castillian Catholic is the first choice. Well, my king eventually dies and the heir takes over at -2000 prestige. All members at court immediately get the -2% loyalty malus that brings. In a few years all my 15+ rated courtiers are gone. My -500 ducat treasury is caused by the steward stealing over 1000 ducats. Eventually with courtiers gone bad events start happening, so my vassals no longer have the nice +4% loyalty from diplomacy and they all fall to -2% loyalt, and in a few years they start revolting, provoking realm duress.
I don't think there is any point playing the game is 90% of my time is spent putting down revolts by vassals who immediately get -5% per month loyalty as soon as they are awarded the demesne. Yes, a revolt from time to time might be fun. But to spend 6 years of game time putting down each vassal two or three times each is just fucking stupid.
It's way way way way way too easy for a vassal to revolt and if a vassal does revolt the AI annexes provoking more vassals to revolt provoking more annexation provoking a collapse to a single duchy. Historically this just happened in germany. That and the impossible cost of actually crusading (the massive cost of naval transport including the even larger cost of maintentnce for the interminable period at sea).
Maybe CK 2 will have it done right.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on October 02, 2011, 09:18:15 PM
Maybe CK 2 will have it done right.
HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
It's been a long time since I laughed this hard....
Still sounds like you are doing it wrong (not negating the fact that ck is a flawed gen, of course).
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2011, 09:25:15 PM
Still sounds like you are doing it wrong (not negating the fact that ck is a flawed gen, of course).
Probably. But, in this case I can't really see what I could have done? My heir was at some other court doing really really stupid shit. Flipping the Navarra Kingdom claim only gained me 400 prestige, but the subsequent revolts blasted me down again. My demesne was plague hit (but my vassals were not strangely enough) so I needed my vassals to fight my wars.
Revolts are a fact of life. I hope CK2 has a good plotting mechanic so that dukes and vassals will cooperate in their revolts.
I always give away duchies, kings don't get presige from counts iirc, just dukes.
And it makes the vassal screen so much nicer and neater.
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2011, 08:17:31 AM
I always give away duchies, kings don't get presige from counts iirc, just dukes.
And it makes the vassal screen so much nicer and neater.
If I could give my vassal counts to my vassal dukes without demanding the the title (1 BB) and ceding the province (-0.5 BB) to the duke.
Quote from: Viking on October 03, 2011, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2011, 08:17:31 AM
I always give away duchies, kings don't get presige from counts iirc, just dukes.
And it makes the vassal screen so much nicer and neater.
If I could give my vassal counts to my vassal dukes without demanding the the title (1 BB) and ceding the province (-0.5 BB) to the duke.
That's an easy edit of the save file; the only thing that has to change is the liege=XXXX line of the count's title section.
Quote from: Viking on October 02, 2011, 09:53:06 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 02, 2011, 09:25:15 PM
Still sounds like you are doing it wrong (not negating the fact that ck is a flawed gen, of course).
Probably. But, in this case I can't really see what I could have done? My heir was at some other court doing really really stupid shit. Flipping the Navarra Kingdom claim only gained me 400 prestige, but the subsequent revolts blasted me down again. My demesne was plague hit (but my vassals were not strangely enough) so I needed my vassals to fight my wars.
Send him on crusade, he might die or get captured. The latter happens much often, and I lost a lot of money for ransoms. You may refuse and get him killed.
Quote from: Viking on October 03, 2011, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2011, 08:17:31 AM
I always give away duchies, kings don't get presige from counts iirc, just dukes.
And it makes the vassal screen so much nicer and neater.
If I could give my vassal counts to my vassal dukes without demanding the the title (1 BB) and ceding the province (-0.5 BB) to the duke.
If a count is naturally part of a duchy, then they will be part of that duchy when you give away the title.
Ex. If you have Counts of X, Y, and Z that are all part of (Fromage, France), then make Count X the Duke of Fromage, he will have counts Y and Z as his vassals.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 03, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 03, 2011, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2011, 08:17:31 AM
I always give away duchies, kings don't get presige from counts iirc, just dukes.
And it makes the vassal screen so much nicer and neater.
If I could give my vassal counts to my vassal dukes without demanding the the title (1 BB) and ceding the province (-0.5 BB) to the duke.
If a count is naturally part of a duchy, then they will be part of that duchy when you give away the title.
Ex. If you have Counts of X, Y, and Z that are all part of (Fromage, France), then make Count X the Duke of Fromage, he will have counts Y and Z as his vassals.
Yes, but when Y and Z revolt and X doesn't do shit about it apart from mobilizing, going bankrupt and sitting with his army, and I revassalize them because I don't want to spend BB on merely maintaining realm integrity then the revolting count is now MY vassal. I can't tell him to swear to his true liege.
Quote from: Viking on October 03, 2011, 12:01:20 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 03, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 03, 2011, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2011, 08:17:31 AM
I always give away duchies, kings don't get presige from counts iirc, just dukes.
And it makes the vassal screen so much nicer and neater.
If I could give my vassal counts to my vassal dukes without demanding the the title (1 BB) and ceding the province (-0.5 BB) to the duke.
If a count is naturally part of a duchy, then they will be part of that duchy when you give away the title.
Ex. If you have Counts of X, Y, and Z that are all part of (Fromage, France), then make Count X the Duke of Fromage, he will have counts Y and Z as his vassals.
Yes, but when Y and Z revolt and X doesn't do shit about it apart from mobilizing, going bankrupt and sitting with his army, and I revassalize them because I don't want to spend BB on merely maintaining realm integrity then the revolting count is now MY vassal. I can't tell him to swear to his true liege.
You must be playing different version than me then :)
Make a duke of the richest province, then give him 1 more province so he can't be annexed quickly, and has better chance in clearing revolters. In my game dukes are quite competent when it comes to their vassals as long as they have bigger armies.
I've never really had problems with my Duke's vassals rebelling.
My Dukes and Counts, on the other hand... :lol: