Good, hopefully justice is served.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44612890/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
QuoteCops charged in mentally ill man's death
Kelly Thomas, 37, suffered from schizophrenia and lived on the streets
Prosecutors charged one police officer with murder and another with manslaughter Wednesday in the killing of a defenseless, mentally ill homeless man who was pummeled, shocked with a Taser and beaten with the butt of a stun gun.
Fullerton Officer Manuel Ramos was charged with one count each of second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter in the death of 37-year-old Kelly Thomas after a violent confrontation with officers on July 5, Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas said at a news conference.
Police Cpl. Jay Cicinelli was charged with one count each of involuntary manslaughter and excessive force.
A review of the evidence showed Thomas was acting "in self-defense, in pain and in a state of panic," Rackauckas said.
"His numerous pleas of 'I'm sorry,' 'I can't breathe,' 'Help Dad' (were) all to no avail. Screams, loud screams, didn't help," the prosecutor said.
Lorie Fridell, an associate professor of criminology at the University of South Florida, said it is highly unusual for a police officer to be charged with murder.
"It is quite appropriate in such cases to hold officers to account," Fridell said. "Often, however, prosecutors will give officers the benefit of the doubt."
Citing unreleased city surveillance video and audio recordings, Rackauckas said Thomas appeared to be cognitively impaired as officers approached him. He was shirtless and wearing just a backpack as Ramos made a show of putting on Latex gloves before ordering him to put his hands on his knees.
"He made two fists with his gloves on, two fists. He lifted his fists in front of Kelly Thomas so he could see them and he said, 'Now see my fists? They are getting ready to (expletive) you up,'" Rackauckas said. "That's when it went from a fairly routine investigation, a fairly routine police detention, to an impending beating by an angry police officer."
Ramos allegedly swung his baton at Thomas but it was unclear if he hit him. The prosecutor said Ramos then chased Thomas, eventually punching him in his ribs and tackling him before holding down his neck and laying on top of Thomas to pin him down.
The prosecutor said Cicinelli, who arrived on the scene later, kneed Thomas twice in the head and used a Taser four times on Thomas as he screamed and yelled in pain. Cicinelli hit Thomas in the face eight times with the Taser, and Thomas didn't respond, Rackauckas said.
"When Kelly didn't scream in response to these blows it should have indicated to Cicinelli that Kelly was down and seriously hurt," he said.
Rackauckas, a longtime prosecutor known for his strong backing of law enforcement, said it was the first time he had filed charges against police officers for excessive force leading to death.
"Police officers have a right to use reasonable force in the performance of a lawful duty but citizens have a right to self-defense, even against the police," he said.
Ron Thomas, Kelly Thomas' father, said he was pleased with the charges.
"That's exactly what I hoped for," he said in a phone interview. "It makes me feel fantastic that this is happening, it's the justice we need."
Still, he said he suffers every day as a result of his son's death.
Ramos' attorney, John Barnett, said the charges were unfounded and disputed Rackauckas' accounts of events. Thomas violently resisted arrest by kicking and swinging at officers, he said, adding that he had seen the same video cited by the prosecutor.
In response to claims that Ramos put on latex gloves and told Thomas he was going to hurt him, Barnett characterized his client's attempt to get compliance as "the lowest type of force."
"It was an attempt by the officer to use words not force to get the suspect to do what he's supposed to do," Barnett said. "He sought to avoid physical confrontation with words. There was no compliance by Mr. Thomas."
Bill Hadden, an attorney representing Cicinelli, didn't immediately return a call for comment. A call to a home number for Ramos rang unanswered.
Arraignment was scheduled later Wednesday.
Six officers were placed on paid administrative leave after the incident that occurred while police were investigating reported vehicle break-ins at a transit hub. The other officers were not charged Wednesday and were not expected to be charged.
Thomas suffered severe head and neck injuries and was taken off life support five days after the incident.
Thomas suffered from schizophrenia and lived on the streets even though he received support from family and friends.
Police said Thomas ran when officers tried to search his bag and a struggle followed when they tried to arrest him for investigation of possession of stolen goods.
Video from a bystander's cell phone taken from a distance showed parts of the bloody encounter in which Thomas can be heard screaming for his father.
Surveillance video aboard a bus showed agitated passengers telling the driver that officers beat and repeatedly used a stun gun during the arrest.
After the incident, the police chief went on medical leave and the embattled City Council hired a law enforcement expert to investigate Police Department practices.
Incensed community members held demonstrations and started an effort to recall the mayor and two councilmembers over the incident.
Ron Thomas filed a claim seeking damages from the city.
He has previously released his son's medical records showing Thomas suffered broken bones in his face, choked on his own blood and was repeatedly shocked with two stun guns.
News reports indicate Cicinelli left the Los Angeles Police Department after losing an eye in 1996 while working as a probationary officer.
Cicinelli, who was 25 at the time, was shot during an on-duty gunfight during a traffic stop less than three weeks after graduating from the Police Academy, according to a 1997 article in the Los Angeles Times.
If convicted of all charges, Ramos could face a maximum sentence of 15 years to life in prison. Cicinelli could face a maximum sentence of four years if convicted.
_______
Associated Press Writers Gillian Flaccus in Orange County and Thomas Watkins and Jeff Wilson in Los Angeles contributed to this report.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 07:33:46 PM
Good, hopefully justice is served.
:mellow: According to the article, justice was already served.
Monstorus
Quote from: Kleves on September 21, 2011, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 07:33:46 PM
Good, hopefully justice is served.
:mellow: According to the article, justice was already served.
Unless you take a Eugenicist position that all mentally ill should die, I can't see how you can say that.
There's yet to be a trial.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 07:42:34 PM
Unless you take a Eugenist position that all mentally ill should die, I can't see how you can say that.
Surely an Eugenist postion would be to destroy the Turk and limit the power of France?
:lol:
Fullerton - I used to live right next door in Placentia. LA and Orange County cops are not known for being cuddly.
Quote from: AnchorClanker on September 21, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Fullerton - I used to live right next door in Placentia. LA and Orange County cops are not known for being cuddly.
You don't have to have lived there to know that. Typing in "Rodney King" on a search will give you that impression.
Quote from: AnchorClanker on September 21, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Fullerton - I used to live right next door in Placentia. LA and Orange County cops are not known for being cuddly.
I recently read that the LAPD has reformed a lot and that the excessive force complaints have plunged in the last decade.
Incidentally the Columbia police a little to the north of me just got in trouble when it was found they were routinely stealing from the evidence rooms.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 07:42:34 PM
Unless you take a Eugenicist position that all mentally ill should die, I can't see how you can say that.
Welcome to Languish, Tim. :P
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:15:10 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 07:42:34 PM
Unless you take a Eugenist position that all mentally ill should die, I can't see how you can say that.
Surely an Eugenist postion would be to destroy the Turk and limit the power of France?
:lol:
Quote from: AnchorClanker on September 21, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Fullerton - I used to live right next door in Placentia. LA and Orange County cops are not known for being cuddly.
I wonder why? :lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freason.com%2Fassets%2Fmc%2Fmriggs%2F2011_08%2FThomasKelly.jpg&hash=8b72c58b1fd4536203a3253905c3160f5d1b7874)
Cool beard.
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:15:10 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 07:42:34 PM
Unless you take a Eugenist position that all mentally ill should die, I can't see how you can say that.
Surely an Eugenist postion would be to destroy the Turk and limit the power of France?
Awesome.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 08:41:18 PM
Quote from: AnchorClanker on September 21, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Fullerton - I used to live right next door in Placentia. LA and Orange County cops are not known for being cuddly.
I recently read that the LAPD has reformed a lot and that the excessive force complaints have plunged in the last decade.
That's because, after a few decades, one simply stops complaining.
Quotethe incident that occurred while police were investigating reported vehicle break-ins at a transit hub.
And any cop that's bothered to put any amount of time in on the street knows damned well that homeless guys very, very rarely, if ever, commit break-ins or even crimes of any type in general. Even the ones pan-handling usually have homes or are crashing at shelters, and do it as a scam. Real street guys don't bother anybody, and usually just want to be left alone in their own unmedicated worlds.
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
Was that photo really necessary?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
Related video doc on the case and the overall situation of cops and cameras :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O7YFKm9gnKo
Warning for Tims, it's graphic at points.
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
You just don't get it, do you?
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2011, 11:35:56 PM
Related video doc on the case and the overall situation of cops and cameras :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O7YFKm9gnKo
Warning for Tims, it's graphic at points.
Great, now I should side with the Police. Goddamn libertarians. If we had universal healthcare the guy probably wouldn't have been on the street.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2011, 11:39:44 PM
Great, now I should side with the Police. Goddamn libertarians. If we had universal healthcare the guy probably wouldn't have been on the street.
I'm sorry you don't have the attention-span to watch something 7 minutes long. Fuckhead.
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2011, 11:46:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2011, 11:39:44 PM
Great, now I should side with the Police. Goddamn libertarians. If we had universal healthcare the guy probably wouldn't have been on the street.
I'm sorry you don't have the attention-span to watch something 7 minutes long. Fuckhead.
No, you nitwit. I'm referring to who made the video. Reason magazine guys. Libertarians. The situation of a schizophrenic living on the streets because he can't get medication is perfectly fine with them. They took issue with the the government intervening. Perhaps if he had been killed by private security guards they wouldn't mind so much.
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
Lame.
Are they convicted or just charged right now? Have they had their day(s) in court??
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2011, 11:49:53 PM
No, you nitwit. I'm referring to who made the video. Reason magazine guys. Libertarians. The situation of a schizophrenic living on the streets because he can't get medication is perfectly fine with them. They took issue with the the government intervening. Perhaps if he had been killed by private security guards they wouldn't mind so much.
Once again, fuckhead, I'm sorry that your attention-span fails to allow you to go beyond the fact the video was made by people that are in the wrong tribe as you. Maybe if you weren't so blinded by your ideology you might be able to avoid that.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2011, 11:39:44 PM
If we had universal healthcare the guy probably wouldn't have been on the street.
No, you still would. Permanently institutionalizing the horribly insane is too expensive, and insane people tend to become homeless.
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 11:56:37 PM
Permanently institutionalizing the horribly insane is too expensive,
Uhhh, you realize how many people we have in prisons already right? It's not too expensive, it's just not a priority.
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2011, 11:53:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2011, 11:49:53 PM
No, you nitwit. I'm referring to who made the video. Reason magazine guys. Libertarians. The situation of a schizophrenic living on the streets because he can't get medication is perfectly fine with them. They took issue with the the government intervening. Perhaps if he had been killed by private security guards they wouldn't mind so much.
Once again, fuckhead, I'm sorry that your attention-span fails to allow you to go beyond the fact the video was made by people that are in the wrong tribe as you. Maybe if you weren't so blinded by your ideology you might be able to avoid that.
I'm blinded by Ideology. Whenever I look in the mirror. :wub:
Quote from: Ideologue on September 22, 2011, 12:03:44 AM
I'm blinded by Ideology. Whenever I look in the mirror. :wub:
:D
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on September 21, 2011, 11:24:47 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 10:48:16 PM
Was that photo really necessary?
Real life = NSFW!
Indeed, but I don't need to look at it to know that it's bad. I denounced it without seeing that.
Quote from: AnchorClanker on September 21, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Fullerton - I used to live right next door in Placentia. LA and Orange County cops are not known for being cuddly.
Placentia? Was it somewhere near Uterius?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
Jail? I thought you would argue for a death penalty. What makes this case different from Troy Davis' one (except that here we can be more certain the murderer did it)?
Quote from: Martinus on September 22, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
Jail? I thought you would argue for a death penalty. What makes this case different from Troy Davis' one (except that here we can be more certain the murderer did it)?
Depends on what is/can be proved/disproved right.....lawyer.
Quote from: Martinus on September 22, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
Jail? I thought you would argue for a death penalty. What makes this case different from Troy Davis' one (except that here we can be more certain the murderer did it)?
Not a big fan of the DP. Besides, as an alleged lawyer, you should know the difference between shooting someone and death by beatdown. I think the lawtalking term might be "intent". :P
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 22, 2011, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on September 21, 2011, 11:24:47 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 21, 2011, 10:48:16 PM
Was that photo really necessary?
Real life = NSFW!
Indeed, but I don't need to look at it to know that it's bad. I denounced it without seeing that.
"I can denounce all sorts of things without seeing them!"
Quote from: Habbaku on September 21, 2011, 11:53:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2011, 11:49:53 PM
No, you nitwit. I'm referring to who made the video. Reason magazine guys. Libertarians. The situation of a schizophrenic living on the streets because he can't get medication is perfectly fine with them. They took issue with the the government intervening. Perhaps if he had been killed by private security guards they wouldn't mind so much.
Once again, fuckhead, I'm sorry that your attention-span fails to allow you to go beyond the fact the video was made by people that are in the wrong tribe as you. Maybe if you weren't so blinded by your ideology you might be able to avoid that.
I watched the video. Still, I despise libertarians just as I would despise any other sort of traitor.
I don't think you know what that word means, Raz.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 22, 2011, 12:02:13 AM
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 11:56:37 PM
Permanently institutionalizing the horribly insane is too expensive,
Uhhh, you realize how many people we have in prisons already right? It's not too expensive, it's just not a priority.
Caring for the mentally ill is even more expensive, as they are generally treated to some degree, not just warehoused like prisoners.
Quote from: 11B4V on September 21, 2011, 11:51:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
Lame.
Are they convicted or just charged right now? Have they had their day(s) in court??
Why lame? If you support death penalty, you should seek it out for the case of these policemen, after a proper trial, of course.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 22, 2011, 05:30:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 22, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
Jail? I thought you would argue for a death penalty. What makes this case different from Troy Davis' one (except that here we can be more certain the murderer did it)?
Not a big fan of the DP. Besides, as an alleged lawyer, you should know the difference between shooting someone and death by beatdown. I think the lawtalking term might be "intent". :P
you don't need a gun to have the intent to kille someone. Also, you may not have the intent of killing someone while shooting them.
Quote from: viper37 on September 22, 2011, 07:51:48 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 21, 2011, 11:51:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
Lame.
Are they convicted or just charged right now? Have they had their day(s) in court??
Why lame? If you support death penalty, you should seek it out for the case of these policemen, after a proper trial, of course.
You did not state after a trial. If they are convicted and the DP is sought depending on the convicted charges, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Quote from: Martinus on September 22, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
These cops sound like they were just punks, and they need to go to jail.
Jail? I thought you would argue for a death penalty. What makes this case different from Troy Davis' one (except that here we can be more certain the murderer did it)?
A reasonable actor might assume shooting a guy twice, once in the heart and once in the head, will lead to death. However you would assume some guy tough enough to start a fight with 7 cops would be tough enough to survive a beat down.
Quote from: viper37 on September 22, 2011, 07:51:48 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 21, 2011, 11:51:15 PM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
I wonder if 11B4V will say they deserve to be executed.
Lame.
Are they convicted or just charged right now? Have they had their day(s) in court??
Why lame? If you support death penalty, you should seek it out for the case of these policemen, after a proper trial, of course.
QuoteFullerton Officer Manuel Ramos was charged with one count each of second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter in the death of 37-year-old Kelly Thomas after a violent confrontation with officers on July 5, Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas said at a news conference.
Police Cpl. Jay Cicinelli was charged with one count each of involuntary manslaughter and excessive force.
But with those charges I highly doubt you'll see the DP.
Quote from: viper37 on September 22, 2011, 07:53:12 AM
Also, you may not have the intent of killing someone while shooting them.
If you shoot someone without intending to kill them, you're a moron. "Shooting to wound" is a stupid, make-belive Hollywood concept.