Is it just me, or is Turkey pretty much threatening to commit an act of war?
QuoteANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has stepped up his belligerent rhetoric against Israel, saying Turkish warships will escort future aid boats leaving its territory for Gaza to prevent a repeat of last year's deadly Israeli raid on an aid flotilla.
Erdogan's comments to Al-Jazeera television Thursday were the first time Turkey has said its navy will use force to protect ships attempting to break Israel's blockade of the coastal Palestinian territory. Turkey had already announced it would increase navy patrols in the eastern Mediterranean in response to Israel's refusal to apologize for the raid.
Dan Meridor, the Israeli Cabinet minister in charge of intelligence, called Erdogan's threat "grave and serious."
"Turkey, which declares that Israel is not above international law, must understand that it isn't either," he said Friday.
Eight Turks and a Turkish-American were killed aboard the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara — part of an international flotilla trying to break the blockade, which Israel says it imposed in 2007 to keep militants from bringing weapons into Gaza.
Turkey and Israel have enjoyed close relations that gave Israel a strong defense ally and allowed Turkey to purchase Israeli high-tech military equipment.
But relations declined steadily after 2008 over Israel's war in Gaza, with Erdogan repeatedly attacking Israel for the deaths of Palestinians. Erdogan, whose party has roots in Turkey's Islamic movement, has also adopted a more hardline approach toward Israel after a strong election victory in July gave him a third consecutive term in office.
The rift with Israel comes as Turkey's yearslong bid to join the European Union has all but faltered and the country has forged closer ties with the Arab and Muslim world.
The NATO-member country rejects, however, claims that it is shifting away from the West. Despite the breakdown in relations with Israel, Turkey has recently agreed to host a NATO missile defense system aimed at countering ballistic missile threats from neighboring Iran.
Turkey, which is enjoying growing popularity in the broader Muslim world, also insists it cannot turn a blind eye to Israel's actions.
"At the moment, there is no doubt that the Turkish military ships' primary duty is to protect (Turkish) ships," Turkey's state-run Anatolia quoted Erdogan as telling Al-Jazeera. "We will be making humanitarian aid. This aid will no longer be subjected to any kind of attack as the Mavi Marmara was."
Israel, for its part, said it would not escalate the rhetoric.
"I do not think it would be correct to get into verbal saber rattling with him now," Meridor told Army Radio. "I think that our silence is the best answer, and I hope this will pass."
"I think anyone who is listening can make their own mind up about him and the direction he has chosen," Meridor said Friday.
A statement from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said: "Our policy was and remains to prevent a deterioration of relations with Turkey and ease the tensions between the countries."
Turkey's opposition also criticized Erdogan's comments on Friday. Kemal Kilicdaroglu, the leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party, said Turkey's Red Crescent was already sending aid to Gaza without breaching the blockade. He called on Erdogan to "justify" in Parliament the threats to send warships to escort aid ships.
A United Nations report into the 2010 Israeli raid, released last week, described the blockade of Gaza as legitimate. It said violent activists on board the Mavi Marmara had attacked raiding Israeli naval commandos, but also accused Israel of using disproportionate force against the activists.
Turkey has rejected the report's findings, saying Israel had no right to raid the ship in international waters and saying Turkey would never recognize the blockade's legitimacy. It is insisting on an Israeli apology as well as compensation for the deaths as a precondition for normalization of a relationship once seen as a cornerstone of regional stability.
Last week, the Turkish government slapped a series of sanctions on Israel — once a top military trading partner — that included expelling senior Israeli diplomats and suspending all military deals. It has also vowed to back the Palestinian bid for recognition of their statehood at the United Nations.
Israel has expressed regret for the loss of lives aboard the flotilla but refused to apologize, saying its forces acted in self-defense. It has also said it was time for the two countries to restore their former close ties.
http://news.yahoo.com/turkish-pm-says-navy-escort-aid-ships-gaza-063903153.html
Not as long as they stick to international waters.
What if they don't, will Israël play some turkey shootout?
It's a slick move. Now that Turkey hates Israel all the antisemite Euroweenies will start sucking Turkish cock and support their bid to join the EU.
It may be attractive to watch them fight but the winner will emerge stronger.
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
I think Turkey wants to lead the Arab world. They are playing to the anti-Israeli crowd in the Middle East imo.
Turkey needs a new enemy, now that the Greeks have gone under.
Erdogan probably thinks that Israel will not go as far as to militarily stop Turkish escorts. On that he is sadly (but gladly for us) mistaken.
Quote from: Drakken on September 09, 2011, 03:37:24 PM
It's a slick move. Now that Turkey hates Israel all the antisemite Euroweenies will start sucking Turkish cock and support their bid to join the EU.
Not.
Maybe they just object to Turkish citizens getting killed by Israelis?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2011, 04:33:07 PM
Maybe they just object to Turkish citizens getting killed by Israelis?
This does not seem like a well-designed strategy for reducing the incidence of that problem.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2011, 04:33:07 PM
Maybe they just object to Turkish citizens getting killed by Israelis?
This does not seem like a well-designed strategy for reducing the incidence of that problem.
Yes, it is bad news. But it is a country of 80m people that is going up in the world, they clearly think that Israel is failing to recognise that status.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2011, 04:34:38 PM
This does not seem like a well-designed strategy for reducing the incidence of that problem.
Agreed, but the same goes for Israel's behaviour.
I mean several flotillas tried to break the blockade under Olmert. They were let through on the assumption that they'd get a very little local media coverage, have no overall effect on the blockade and be, at best, a nuisance. The whole problem seemed more contained then than now.
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:23:37 PM
Is it just me, or is Turkey pretty much threatening to commit an act of war?
.....
Why do you want to go to war with Israel on your own ?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 09, 2011, 03:25:32 PM
Not as long as they stick to international waters.
eh? Escorting ships running a blockade is an act of war imho, just like running the blockade itself. AFAIK there is no difference between belligerent territorial waters and international waters with respect to armed conflict. If acts of war are legitimate against a ship, escorting and defending that ship should be an act of war itself.
Or am I missing something?
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
It'd be for the best if there was war. The whole region was better off under Turkish control.
Well I think this will reveal if Turkey is just doing some standard anti-semite posturing, or means business in his bid of leading the moontribes.
But right now, it is the Turks who face a decision, not the Jews. If the convoy enters their part of the sea (unless of course they can reach Gaza in an international territory - I have no idea of the imaginary lines on the sea), they must enforce the blockade, or it stops being a blockade, they will be found weak, and the very people who support this "peaceful" convoy will make sure to point that fact out.
The challenge of a foreign warship can only make them more determined to stop them, not less, unless they are cowards, which the Israelis are not.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 09, 2011, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
It'd be for the best if there was war. The whole region was better off under Turkish control.
Yeah but you can't redraw major borders anymore.
That ended with the World Wars. It's ironic though that before deciding it's bad manners to redraw the maps, they quickly fucked up world borders.
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:16:36 PM
Well I think this will reveal if Turkey is just doing some standard anti-semite posturing, or means business in his bid of leading the moontribes.
But right now, it is the Turks who face a decision, not the Jews. If the convoy enters their part of the sea (unless of course they can reach Gaza in an international territory - I have no idea of the imaginary lines on the sea), they must enforce the blockade, or it stops being a blockade, they will be found weak, and the very people who support this "peaceful" convoy will make sure to point that fact out.
The challenge of a foreign warship can only make them more determined to stop them, not less, unless they are cowards, which the Israelis are not.
The Israelis are enforcing a high seas blockade against Gaza. They are intercepting ships on the high seas that they suspect to be running the blockade. Gaza territorial waters are irrelevant.
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:17:53 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 09, 2011, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
It'd be for the best if there was war. The whole region was better off under Turkish control.
Yeah but you can't redraw major borders anymore.
That ended with the World Wars. It's ironic though that before deciding it's bad manners to redraw the maps, they quickly fucked up world borders.
Hmmm....... pretty big redraw c. 1991 Tamas :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 09, 2011, 05:22:25 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:17:53 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 09, 2011, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
It'd be for the best if there was war. The whole region was better off under Turkish control.
Yeah but you can't redraw major borders anymore.
That ended with the World Wars. It's ironic though that before deciding it's bad manners to redraw the maps, they quickly fucked up world borders.
Hmmm....... pretty big redraw c. 1991 Tamas :hmm:
That was more like a disintegration, but yeah. Still, that doesn't convince me about Turkish chances of major territorial gains without the world going bust in the process.
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 05:19:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:16:36 PM
Well I think this will reveal if Turkey is just doing some standard anti-semite posturing, or means business in his bid of leading the moontribes.
But right now, it is the Turks who face a decision, not the Jews. If the convoy enters their part of the sea (unless of course they can reach Gaza in an international territory - I have no idea of the imaginary lines on the sea), they must enforce the blockade, or it stops being a blockade, they will be found weak, and the very people who support this "peaceful" convoy will make sure to point that fact out.
The challenge of a foreign warship can only make them more determined to stop them, not less, unless they are cowards, which the Israelis are not.
The Israelis are enforcing a high seas blockade against Gaza. They are intercepting ships on the high seas that they suspect to be running the blockade. Gaza territorial waters are irrelevant.
:hmm: I hope CNN will have some choppers nearby then. Altough I am hoping a Jewish sub will just sink the Turkish warship(s), making it all the more humbling for the Turks.
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:27:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 05:19:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:16:36 PM
Well I think this will reveal if Turkey is just doing some standard anti-semite posturing, or means business in his bid of leading the moontribes.
But right now, it is the Turks who face a decision, not the Jews. If the convoy enters their part of the sea (unless of course they can reach Gaza in an international territory - I have no idea of the imaginary lines on the sea), they must enforce the blockade, or it stops being a blockade, they will be found weak, and the very people who support this "peaceful" convoy will make sure to point that fact out.
The challenge of a foreign warship can only make them more determined to stop them, not less, unless they are cowards, which the Israelis are not.
The Israelis are enforcing a high seas blockade against Gaza. They are intercepting ships on the high seas that they suspect to be running the blockade. Gaza territorial waters are irrelevant.
:hmm: I hope CNN will have some choppers nearby then. Altough I am hoping a Jewish sub will just sink the Turkish warship(s), making it all the more humbling for the Turks.
I'm hoping that no violence happens. I think, however, that if Turkey does escort the convoy Israel will just let the convoy through. They can then use the failure of the convoy in addition to FATAH's abandonment of the Oslo accords (by applying for UN membership and declaration of independence) might just be the CB Israel uses to re-occupy the west bank and gaza. But I don't think that either. Israel is basically being backed up into a corner. Israel will presumably react with quite a bit of force and quite a bit of re-evaluation of the principle of peace with arabs itself.
What's Israel going to do, start a war with Turkey over convoys?, start a war with Egypt over its abrogation of the Camp David Accords?, start a war with FATAH over it abrogation of the Oslo Accords?
Has Israel lost it's deterrence?
I'll laugh my ass off when the :Joos play hardball with the Turks.
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 05:34:12 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:27:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 05:19:24 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:16:36 PM
Well I think this will reveal if Turkey is just doing some standard anti-semite posturing, or means business in his bid of leading the moontribes.
But right now, it is the Turks who face a decision, not the Jews. If the convoy enters their part of the sea (unless of course they can reach Gaza in an international territory - I have no idea of the imaginary lines on the sea), they must enforce the blockade, or it stops being a blockade, they will be found weak, and the very people who support this "peaceful" convoy will make sure to point that fact out.
The challenge of a foreign warship can only make them more determined to stop them, not less, unless they are cowards, which the Israelis are not.
The Israelis are enforcing a high seas blockade against Gaza. They are intercepting ships on the high seas that they suspect to be running the blockade. Gaza territorial waters are irrelevant.
:hmm: I hope CNN will have some choppers nearby then. Altough I am hoping a Jewish sub will just sink the Turkish warship(s), making it all the more humbling for the Turks.
I'm hoping that no violence happens. I think, however, that if Turkey does escort the convoy Israel will just let the convoy through. They can then use the failure of the convoy in addition to FATAH's abandonment of the Oslo accords (by applying for UN membership and declaration of independence) might just be the CB Israel uses to re-occupy the west bank and gaza. But I don't think that either. Israel is basically being backed up into a corner. Israel will presumably react with quite a bit of force and quite a bit of re-evaluation of the principle of peace with arabs itself.
What's Israel going to do, start a war with Turkey over convoys?, start a war with Egypt over its abrogation of the Camp David Accords?, start a war with FATAH over it abrogation of the Oslo Accords?
Has Israel lost it's deterrence?
yeah, talking seriously, I am a bit worried. Too many regional players could use a holy war there, what's with the arab spring, iranian regime stil having problems, and pseudo-islamist Erdogan being the regular dangerous populist prick.
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 05:34:12 PM
I'm hoping that no violence happens. I think, however, that if Turkey does escort the convoy Israel will just let the convoy through. They can then use the failure of the convoy in addition to FATAH's abandonment of the Oslo accords (by applying for UN membership and declaration of independence) might just be the CB Israel uses to re-occupy the west bank and gaza. But I don't think that either. Israel is basically being backed up into a corner. Israel will presumably react with quite a bit of force and quite a bit of re-evaluation of the principle of peace with arabs itself.
What's Israel going to do, start a war with Turkey over convoys?, start a war with Egypt over its abrogation of the Camp David Accords?, start a war with FATAH over it abrogation of the Oslo Accords?
Has Israel lost it's deterrence?
Did the Oslo accords really say Palestine couldn't pursue recognition?
And what do you mean by Egypt's abrogation of Camp David?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 09, 2011, 06:48:47 PMDid the Oslo accords really say Palestine couldn't pursue recognition?
Oslo provided a system of government and a structure for negotiations that would lead to a two state solution. A unilateral declaration of independence or seeking of international recognition more or less fucks that up.
Quote from: Drakken on September 09, 2011, 03:37:24 PM
It's a slick move. Now that Turkey hates Israel all the antisemite Euroweenies will start sucking Turkish cock and support their bid to join the EU.
I don't think that's the strategy, it's merely the result of the "Europeanization" of Turkey.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 09, 2011, 06:48:47 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 05:34:12 PM
I'm hoping that no violence happens. I think, however, that if Turkey does escort the convoy Israel will just let the convoy through. They can then use the failure of the convoy in addition to FATAH's abandonment of the Oslo accords (by applying for UN membership and declaration of independence) might just be the CB Israel uses to re-occupy the west bank and gaza. But I don't think that either. Israel is basically being backed up into a corner. Israel will presumably react with quite a bit of force and quite a bit of re-evaluation of the principle of peace with arabs itself.
What's Israel going to do, start a war with Turkey over convoys?, start a war with Egypt over its abrogation of the Camp David Accords?, start a war with FATAH over it abrogation of the Oslo Accords?
Has Israel lost it's deterrence?
Did the Oslo accords really say Palestine couldn't pursue recognition?
And what do you mean by Egypt's abrogation of Camp David?
I'm not referring to things that have happened, but things that are being advocated by strong forces in Egypt and Palestine.
Wouldn't it be lovely to see the Semites go at each others throats on our plasma screens? No doubt Israel would prevail but I doubt it would be livable afterward.
G.
Yeah, especially the Turkish Semites.
Quote from: Grallon on September 09, 2011, 07:18:48 PM
Wouldn't it be lovely to see the Semites go at each others throats on our plasma screens? No doubt Israel would prevail but I doubt it would be livable afterward.
G.
Turks are not Semites, they are Altai. Us Indo-Europeans will watch from the sidelines.
*shrug* Turks, Altai, Semites... what's the difference? The whole region is a powder keg waiting to explode. Which will make for a lively show on TV.
G.
Ignorant fools.
Don't go around calling Turks Semites, they are not Semites. Not caring when you are wrong does not ennoble you in my view.
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 07:36:35 PM
Don't go around calling Turks Semites, they are not Semites. Not caring when you are wrong does not ennoble you in my view.
Viking, Viking! I care not to appear noble in anyone's view here - or anywhere else for that matter. All I care about is my unavoidable mortality - and whatever provides some distraction while I wait for it. Having some 'untermensch' tribes fight it out is one such interlude.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on September 09, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 07:36:35 PM
Don't go around calling Turks Semites, they are not Semites. Not caring when you are wrong does not ennoble you in my view.
Viking, Viking! I care not to appear noble in anyone's view here - or anywhere else for that matter. All I care about is my unavoidable mortality - and whatever provides some distraction while I wait for it. Having some 'untermensch' tribes fight it out is one such interlude.
G.
I just think that we should at least show the gladiators that are about to die for our amusement the basic minimal respect of getting their names right.
Quote from: Grallon on September 09, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 07:36:35 PM
Don't go around calling Turks Semites, they are not Semites. Not caring when you are wrong does not ennoble you in my view.
Viking, Viking! I care not to appear noble in anyone's view here - or anywhere else for that matter. All I care about is my unavoidable mortality - and whatever provides some distraction while I wait for it. Having some 'untermensch' tribes fight it out is one such interlude.
G.
Actually the Israelis are wealthier then your people I believe. So you have to look up to them. Also, they did get independence from the Brits.
Incidently I thought the Altaic family was a somewhat contentious one.
Quote from: Tamas on September 09, 2011, 05:17:53 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 09, 2011, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 09, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
What's Turkey's end-game anyway? It seems obvious to me that it is trying to use any excuse to worsen the ties with Israel. Is the end goal to make Turkey hostile to Israel, or is it to go further and provoke a war with Israel?
It'd be for the best if there was war. The whole region was better off under Turkish control.
Yeah but you can't redraw major borders anymore.
That ended with the World Wars. It's ironic though that before deciding it's bad manners to redraw the maps, they quickly fucked up world borders.
Damn Brits ruining everything :mad:
Quote from: Viking on September 09, 2011, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: Grallon on September 09, 2011, 07:18:48 PM
Wouldn't it be lovely to see the Semites go at each others throats on our plasma screens? No doubt Israel would prevail but I doubt it would be livable afterward.
G.
Turks are not Semites, they are Altai. Us Indo-Europeans will watch from the sidelines.
In as far as they aren't greek trough intermingling.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2011, 08:04:50 PM
Incidently I thought the Altaic family was a somewhat contentious one.
Only on aunt Zelda's side.
Muslims never cease to amuse.
Interesting how they keep miscalculating after so many defeats.
I think down inside it all comes down a culture of misreporting and conspircy theories.
For example, the Yom Kippur War. The egyptians to this day claim a victory. This is a political and cultural necesity for them.
But this means misreporting, exagerating egyptian limited initial suceess in the war, while minimizing the israeli drive into the heart of egypt, while outflanking and encircling an entire egiptian army group.
Now, the turks know the israeli version, but because of the middle eastern mentallity of conspiracy theories, they disregard the israeli version off hand as an israeli conspiracy.
Quote from: Siege on September 11, 2011, 05:43:05 PM
Muslims never cease to amuse.
Interesting how they keep miscalculating after so many defeats.
I think down inside it all comes down a culture of misreporting and conspircy theories.
For example, the Yom Kippur War. The egyptians to this day claim a victory. This is a political and cultural necesity for them.
But this means misreporting, exagerating egyptian limited initial suceess in the war, while minimizing the israeli drive into the heart of egypt, while outflanking and encircling an entire egiptian army group.
Now, the turks know the israeli version, but because of the middle eastern mentallity of conspiracy theories, they disregard the israeli version off hand as an israeli conspiracy.
Talking to an Egyptian (while in Egypt nonetheless) about the mid east the wars came up and I casually made some point about how, even when catching the Israelis with their pants down in 1973, they failed. She blinked and claimed that Egypt had won the war. I was amazed. She claimed the Egyptian Army beat the Israeli one. The Wikipedia page about the Yom Kippur War was part of an Israeli conspiracy, apparently. I asked why the Egyptians why they didn't liberate the Palestinians after beating the IDF. She told me that it was up to the Palestinians to liberate themselves.
I didn't really realize what was going on in her head until I went to the Egyptian Army Museum in the Cairo Citadel. The 6 day war was not mentioned at all and the Yom Kippur War ended when the Egyptian Army Crossed the Bar-Lev line. Her view of Mubarak was that "he's a good man".
Pretending you won might make you feel good about yourself and with some cognitive dissonance you might get away with it, but conducting a real inquiry not only into what went wrong but what went right as well is more conducive to winning the next war.
Fact: their culture is inferior to Western culture.