QuoteTurkey expels Israeli ambassador over Gaza flotilla row
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Turkish FM Ahmet Davutoglu: "Security can only be achieved through genuine peace"
Turkey has expelled Israel's ambassador and suspended all military agreements over its refusal to apologise for last year's raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla.
This comes a day after a leaked UN report said Israeli commandos used excessive force when they boarded an aid ship. Nine Turkish activists died.
The Turkish Foreign Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, said it was "time Israel pays a price for its illegal actions".
Israel has refused to apologise and said its troops acted in self-defence.
"Israel, like any other country, has a legitimate right to protect its citizens and soldiers," an Israeli government official told the BBC.
"Israel has made many attempts in the recent months to settle the dispute between our countries. Unfortunately these attempts were unsuccessful."
'Null and void'
The nine pro-Palestinian activists who died were on board the Turkish-flagged ship, Mavi Marmara, when it was intercepted by the Israeli navy in international waters as sailed towards Gaza's coast on 31 May 2010.
The Palmer report was seen by the media in Israel as a rare vindication by the UN.
Crucially it accepted that its naval blockade of Gaza is both legal and "a legitimate security measure" to stop weapons reaching militants by sea.
An Israeli inquiry reached the same conclusion, while a Turkish one found it to be unlawful and a collective punishment of the people of Gaza.
The dilemma that remains for Israeli officials is how to handle the deepening of the rift with their long-time regional ally, Turkey, with which it has trade, military and strategic ties.
This report was meant to mend relations but has achieved just the opposite.
Turkey wants an apology and compensation for the families of the victims. Israel has expressed only regret but may consider payouts. It believes a full apology would demoralise its citizens and project weakness.
At the time, the Israeli military said its commandos fired live rounds only after being attacked with clubs, knives and guns. But activists on board said the commandos started shooting as soon as they hit the deck.
The UN inquiry chaired by former New Zealand Prime Minister Geoffrey Palmer, whose report was leaked to the New York Times, found the Israeli troops faced "significant, organised and violent resistance from a group of passengers" and were therefore required to use force for their own protection.
But it said Israel's decision to board the vessels "with such substantial force at a great distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable".
The report noted "forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range".
The inquiry also found Israel's naval blockade "was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law".
The report was completed months ago, but its publication was delayed several times as Turkey and Israel attempted to repair their diplomatic relations, which have been frozen since the flotilla incident.
But on Friday, hours before the report was expected to be released, Turkey' announced that diplomatic relations had been reduced to the level of second secretary and all military agreements had been suspended.
Some activists on the Mavi Marmara attacked commandos as they landed on the ship
"The time has come for Israel to pay for its stance that sees it above international laws and disregards human conscience," Mr Davutoglu said. "The first and foremost result is that Israel is going to be devoid of Turkey's friendship."
"As long as the Israeli government does not take the necessary steps, there will be no turning back," he warned.
Mr Davutoglu said the report "displayed the violence committed by the Israeli soldiers", but added that some of its findings were questionable.
"Turkey does not recognise Israel's blockade of Gaza. It will secure the study of this blockade at the International Court of Justice."
Asked to comment on the UN panel's decision not to recommend that Israel apologise, Turkish President Abdullah Gul said: "To be frank, the report is null and void for us."
Hamas, whose decision to seize control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 led to Israel imposing the blockade, applauded the Turkish move.
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The raid on the flotilla has been condemned but the UN has declared Israel's blockade legitimate
"This is a natural response to the Israeli crime against the flotilla," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told the BBC.
The Israeli official said the government accepted with "reservations" the UN report, which it considered "professional, profound and serious".
"During the events of the Mavi Marmara flotilla, Israeli soldiers boarded the boat with non-lethal means. They had no intention to hurt anyone," the official said.
"Once the Israeli soldiers were viciously attacked by dozens of violent IHH activists, armed with batons, knives and steel pipes, the soldiers had to defend themselves," the official added, referring to the IHH Humanitarian Relief Foundation, which Israel has banned for supporting Hamas.
"After many of the soldiers were wounded during the operation, nine of the IHH rioters who had endangered their lives were killed."
"As recommended in the report, Israel again expresses regret about the loss of life but will not apologise for acts of self-defence by its soldiers."
The official noted that the Israeli ambassador had finished his posting in Ankara a few days ago, and said Israel assumed that Turkey would "respect the rules of international maritime law in the Mediterranean".
I hope all the people who thought the islamists winning in Turkey was not a bad thing eat their hats now.
Why is that, Tim?
Oh and the Israelis could mend fences with Turks easy. Just declare all Palestinians Armenians. Problem solved.
So, does this mean Turkey will finally pay for it's actions against the Kurds?
Cause there's some need for genuine peace there too
To be frank, the Turkish outrage is null and void for me.
The usual asshattery of politicians declaring that they will only accept investigation results that duplicate what the politicians have decided a priori to be acceptable is nothing new, but also nothing credible.
erdogan, why won't someone assassinate you*? :(
*no, languish, this is not a threat. and neither is "i hope erdogan gets assassinated"
Yes grumbler, but with the shit going down in Syria, the non-revolution unfolding in Egypt, and Palestine about to be recognized by the UN. NOT GOOD
Quote from: LaCroix on September 02, 2011, 01:20:39 PM
erdogan, why won't someone assassinate you*? :(
*no, languish, this is not a threat. and neither is "i hope erdogan gets assassinated"
I know this is petty, but every Turkish thread after my trashing for hating on erdogan will get a big:
TOLD YOU SO!
Oh and Marty: you were also in the "Erdogan is a liberal and definetly better than the military" camp, so don't act like you didn't wave the flag of the non-existant moderate religious turkish liberal government
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on September 02, 2011, 01:20:39 PM
erdogan, why won't someone assassinate you*? :(
*no, languish, this is not a threat. and neither is "i hope erdogan gets assassinated"
I know this is petty, but every Turkish thread after my trashing for hating on erdogan will get a big:
TOLD YOU SO!
Oh and Marty: you were also in the "Erdogan is a liberal and definetly better than the military" camp, so don't act like you didn't wave the flag of the non-existant moderate religious turkish liberal government
Isn't he now more in line with most European governments on the Israeli issue? The more "European" the Turks become, the more anti-Israel they will also become. Truth be told, the poor relations with Turkey is symptomatic of the Israeli foreign policy of the last few years. For some unfathomable reason, Israel has been sabotaging it's own diplomacy with both Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
he's aligning turkey with the rest of the middle east. it just so happens europeans are allied with muslims in their struggle to annihilate judaism
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:21:27 PM
Yes grumbler, but with the shit going down in Syria, the non-revolution unfolding in Egypt, and Palestine about to be recognized by the UN. NOT GOOD
When was the last time good news came out of the Middlle East?
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on September 02, 2011, 01:20:39 PM
erdogan, why won't someone assassinate you*? :(
*no, languish, this is not a threat. and neither is "i hope erdogan gets assassinated"
I know this is petty, but every Turkish thread after my trashing for hating on erdogan will get a big:
TOLD YOU SO!
Oh and Marty: you were also in the "Erdogan is a liberal and definetly better than the military" camp, so don't act like you didn't wave the flag of the non-existant moderate religious turkish liberal government
No I wasn't. I have always been wary of his religious bent. I admit I have been in the anti-Israel camp on the flotilla thing, but I've never been in pro-Erdogan camp.
This is sad. Not just a Turkish thing though, I believe there was internal coalition disagreements in Israel over this. The US has been pushing for the two sides to reach some sort of a deal, one seemed close until recently but I read (admittedly in Haaretz) that Bibi wanted to apologise, Lieberman and the hardline wanted nothing to do with it - in fact I believe Lieberman has said that the fact it took so long to decide not to apologise is a sign of national weakness.
My understanding is that the Turks have clarified that this whole cancelling of military relations doesn't include existing agreements - but I'm not sure quite how true that is I got it from, I think, Nick Kristoff's Twitter feed.
I still think that the moment when the Arab world is rising up against long-standing tyrannies is a very good moment to have a three election winning Islamist government in Turkey and I think this could be a real chance for Turkey to use her soft power.
Two things strike me though.
One is that I've always worried about Erdogan's creeping authoritarianism - unlike most here, though, I see the danger as being that he ends up like Putin not Ahmedinejad - and though he's restrained by now lacking a 2/3rds majority that doesn't seem to have put a stop on that authoritarianism. What also worries me though is I think Lieberman's coarsening - similarly Putinism - effect on Israel's politics. It's sad that I think those trends exist at a time when the Mid-East looks ready to dare more democracy.
Second point is where Turkey's foreign policy goes now. I don't know but they've effectively been told that they're not really welcome in Europe, an error in my view, and are less friendly with Israel. But their 'zero problems' policy with their neighbours looks in tatters. They've had a major falling out with Iran over Syria, have really ratcheted up the rhetoric over Syria (though, like Israel, I suspect they probably wouldn't have minded if Assad could have survived, though he probably can't now) and they also have more problems with the Kurds in Syria and Iraq. From zero problems to problems all over.
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:21:27 PM
Yes grumbler, but with the shit going down in Syria, the non-revolution unfolding in Egypt, and Palestine about to be recognized by the UN. NOT GOOD
When was the last time good news came out of the Middlle East?
Overthrow of Ben Ali, Mubarak, Gadaffi. Slow-mo collapse of the Syrian regime. The difficulty Hezbullah's finding itself in due to all of the above. The emergence of a reasonably credible Palestinian 'state'. And the difficulty Iran's in with all of the above.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 02:35:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:21:27 PM
Yes grumbler, but with the shit going down in Syria, the non-revolution unfolding in Egypt, and Palestine about to be recognized by the UN. NOT GOOD
When was the last time good news came out of the Middlle East?
Overthrow of Ben Ali, Mubarak, Gadaffi. Slow-mo collapse of the Syrian regime. The difficulty Hezbullah's finding itself in due to all of the above. The emergence of a reasonably credible Palestinian 'state'. And the difficulty Iran's in with all of the above.
It remains to be seen if those things are good news. They have potential yes..but seeing a few eggs being broken doesn't necessarily mean a tasty omelet is about to be served.
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:47:43 PMIt remains to be seen if those things are good news. They have potential yes..but seeing a few eggs being broken doesn't necessarily mean a tasty omelet is about to be served.
I think they're all good so far. We should be happy with 100 million more people not living in dysfunctional totalitarian regimes until it's demonstrated that the alternative really is worse.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:47:43 PMIt remains to be seen if those things are good news. They have potential yes..but seeing a few eggs being broken doesn't necessarily mean a tasty omelet is about to be served.
I think they're all good so far. We should be happy with 100 million more people not living in dysfunctional totalitarian regimes until it's demonstrated that the alternative really is worse.
Indeed.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 02:49:16 PM
I think they're all good so far. We should be happy with 100 million more people not living in dysfunctional totalitarian regimes until it's demonstrated that the alternative really is worse.
Yeah I will be happy as soon as they are living in functional regimes. Until then I am guardedly optimistic. Times like this are excellent openings for opportunists.
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
Yeah I will be happy as soon as they are living in functional regimes. Until then I am guardedly optimistic. Times like this are excellent openings for opportunists.
Yeah and things'll be shaky and risky and so on and that's inevitable. Revolutions, even relatively peaceful ones aren't easy. But I think this is a manifestation of anti-Muslim bias. I don't think there was as much teeth gnashing regarding Latin America, or Eastern Europe, or the Philippines in the 80s and I think if Burma's clerical monk-led revolution had succeeded there similarly wouldn't be aby worry. We should be simply happy that more people are free now than were six months ago and wish them well and hope for the best.
This is the first time when we in the West have a chance to actually be on the side of the Arab people and we shouldn't miss it.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 03:03:57 PM
Revolutions, even relatively peaceful ones aren't easy. But I think this is a manifestation of anti-Muslim bias.
It is a manifestation of anti-Middle East bias. That is a tricky part of the world. I am not exactly brimming with confidence in the Israelis either.
And if you think I greet each change in regime in Latin America as all gumdrops and light you clearly do not read my posts on this board.
QuoteThis is the first time when we in the West have a chance to actually be on the side of the Arab people and we shouldn't miss it.
And what would being on their side look like? We helped them take down Gaddafi didn't we?
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 03:09:10 PMAnd if you think I greet each change in regime in Latin America as all gumdrops and light you clearly do not read my posts on this board.
I meant in the 80s as Latin America generally shifted from a series of authoritarian states to flawed democracies, but democracies nonetheless.
Edit: And I don't mean you specifically, but the general attitude towards these uprisings.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 03:10:26 PM
Edit: And I don't mean you specifically, but the general attitude towards these uprisings.
Ah well. You have to understand the chicken littles have been informing us for decades that as soon as our precious Dictators lose power rabid fundamentalist Islamic states will spring up. Having the same stuff be fed to us for thirty years has an effect.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 02:49:16 PM
I think they're all good so far. We should be happy with 100 million more people not living in dysfunctional totalitarian regimes until it's demonstrated that the alternative really is worse.
Egyptians still live in a dysfunctional totalitarian regime, whose puppet masters have changed puppets. Ben Ali's departure looks right now to have ben a good thing. Gaddafi's departure could be good, or could be like the death of Tito.
Overall, I would rate the news from the Middle East as Not Good.
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 03:13:29 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 03:10:26 PM
Edit: And I don't mean you specifically, but the general attitude towards these uprisings.
Ah well. You have to understand the chicken littles have been informing us for decades that as soon as our precious Dictators lose power rabid fundamentalist Islamic states will spring up. Having the same stuff be fed to us for thirty years has an effect.
How many examples led to believe the contrary during those years? Certainly not Iran, Afghanistan or Algeria ...
I just expelled last night's Taco bell ambassador.
Did he make a fuss?
I've sort of been expecting this since Shimon Peres de-balled erdogan, amr moussa and ban ki moon at davos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOzMrxX9NfI
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 02:35:43 PM
The emergence of a reasonably credible Palestinian 'state'.
Is it just me, or is the Palestinian 'state' less credible now than it was five years ago?
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 06:59:47 PM
Is it just me, or is the Palestinian 'state' less credible now than it was five years ago?
The West Bank government is considerably more credible than it was under Yes Sir.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 02, 2011, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 06:59:47 PM
Is it just me, or is the Palestinian 'state' less credible now than it was five years ago?
The West Bank government is considerably more credible than it was under Yes Sir.
I suppose if you ignore the whole Gaza issue.
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 07:20:38 PMI suppose if you ignore the whole Gaza issue.
Worth doing. Settlements are in the West Bank, Jerusalem's in the West Bank, any land swap will be predominately in the West Bank. Gaza's far less important.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 07:23:44 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 07:20:38 PMI suppose if you ignore the whole Gaza issue.
Worth doing. Settlements are in the West Bank, Jerusalem's in the West Bank, any land swap will be predominately in the West Bank. Gaza's far less important.
Is the PA willing to just abandon Gaza and make a Palestinian state consisting only of the West Bank? Otherwise, the fact that there's constant fighting in Gaza and the fact that the PA has no authority whatsoever there is going to put a damper on moving forward.
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 07:37:21 PMIs the PA willing to just abandon Gaza and make a Palestinian state consisting only of the West Bank? Otherwise, the fact that there's constant fighting in Gaza and the fact that the PA has no authority whatsoever there is going to put a damper on moving forward.
Well no, the PA still claims Gaza, as it were and consider it part of a Palestinian state. But the main issues are related to the West Bank. I think the Egyptian pressure for a unity government will be helpful on Gaza though - as could Barghouti's call for mass peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians in support of the statehood bid.
I think it's a very debateable point whether the PA gains or loses by its attempted rapproachment with Hamas.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 07:46:13 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 07:37:21 PMIs the PA willing to just abandon Gaza and make a Palestinian state consisting only of the West Bank? Otherwise, the fact that there's constant fighting in Gaza and the fact that the PA has no authority whatsoever there is going to put a damper on moving forward.
Well no, the PA still claims Gaza, as it were and consider it part of a Palestinian state. But the main issues are related to the West Bank. I think the Egyptian pressure for a unity government will be helpful on Gaza though - as could Barghouti's call for mass peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians in support of the statehood bid.
I think that ongoing skirmishes and rocket attacks are definitely a 'main issue', in that it makes it hard to resolve the land issue without assurances that the security issue can be resolved. We'll see how much pressure the Egyptians can bring to bear, but Hamas has very good reasons to remain a bit intransigent. Governing would interfere with their gangster operations.
Quote from: Martinus on September 02, 2011, 02:28:43 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:22:34 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on September 02, 2011, 01:20:39 PM
erdogan, why won't someone assassinate you*? :(
*no, languish, this is not a threat. and neither is "i hope erdogan gets assassinated"
I know this is petty, but every Turkish thread after my trashing for hating on erdogan will get a big:
TOLD YOU SO!
Oh and Marty: you were also in the "Erdogan is a liberal and definetly better than the military" camp, so don't act like you didn't wave the flag of the non-existant moderate religious turkish liberal government
No I wasn't. I have always been wary of his religious bent. I admit I have been in the anti-Israel camp on the flotilla thing, but I've never been in pro-Erdogan camp.
Yes. Your recollection of events is closer then Tamas's.
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 08:11:34 PMI think that ongoing skirmishes and rocket attacks are definitely a 'main issue', in that it makes it hard to resolve the land issue without assurances that the security issue can be resolved.
The security issues have been resolved in the West Bank. Israel allows PA security forces to lead counter-terror operations. Gaza is a separate issue that really needs to be dealt with by Palestinians and whatever pressure the Arab world can bring to bear.
My view is that, probably for the first time I can think the Israelis are the ones not missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They've got a credible negotiating partner who has delivered on security and built something of a state - with a lot of western support. But this Israeli government can't deal with them and they could very soon be facing a nightmare scenario of the UN recognising Palestine and Barghouti's peaceful million man march - which will no doubt be joined by Palestinians elsewhere. If Israel had real leaders they would have taken a risk rather than just talking about 'de-legitimisation' and being almost passive in the face of events. Sadly, right now, Israel has tactical politicians in charge.
QuoteWe'll see how much pressure the Egyptians can bring to bear, but Hamas has very good reasons to remain a bit intransigent. Governing would interfere with their gangster operations.
One of the interesting effects of this whole Arab uprising is that I think Arab public opinion now exists and I don't think any regime can entirely ignore, fabricate or manipulate it as they once could.
With Hamas I think this has meant three things.
The protests in Gaza so far have been for a unity government, they've also been shut down pretty quickly. In addition I think Egyptian pressure is coming because of Egyptian public opinion which could make it stronger and Egypt a more honest and, hopefully, useful partner in the Middle East. Responding to the protests in Syria has been difficult for Hamas (and Hezbollah), I believe Hamas more or less dumped Assad and that relations with Iran are more strained than ever before. Hezbollah, I understand, stuck with Assad but have seen their credibility and popularity nosedive and are now trying to minimise the damage.
None of that leads anywhere but I think that it could be a big difference in the Middle East if the regimes, even if they're not democratic, have to deal with the views of their people.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 09:04:12 PM
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 08:11:34 PMI think that ongoing skirmishes and rocket attacks are definitely a 'main issue', in that it makes it hard to resolve the land issue without assurances that the security issue can be resolved.
The security issues have been resolved in the West Bank. Israel allows PA security forces to lead counter-terror operations. Gaza is a separate issue that really needs to be dealt with by Palestinians and whatever pressure the Arab world can bring to bear.
I don't think you can divorce Israel from the Gaza question.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 09:04:12 PM
But this Israeli government can't deal with them and they could very soon be facing a nightmare scenario of the UN recognising Palestine and Barghouti's peaceful million man march - which will no doubt be joined by Palestinians elsewhere.
I doubt that the Isreali government
really cares if the UN recognizes Palestine or not. A
peaceful mass protest by the Palestinians, if they can actually manage it, is, I think, much more of a nightmare for Isreal.
Quote from: Neil on September 02, 2011, 09:41:03 PMI don't think you can divorce Israel from the Gaza question.
They've, rightly, divorced themselves and will mainly be concerned with maintaining the blockade and helping undermine Hamas. Again I think part of that is a reason for the Israelis to work with the PA.
Quote from: dps on September 03, 2011, 05:19:33 AMI doubt that the Isreali government really cares if the UN recognizes Palestine or not. A peaceful mass protest by the Palestinians, if they can actually manage it, is, I think, much more of a nightmare for Isreal.
I don't think Israel cares about the UN recognition in itself, but they've made a big deal of it with, as I said earlier, the talk of 'de-legitimisation'. Maybe they're more worried about the countries who'll end up voting for it. Israel's put a lot of pressure on EU nations and is clearly more worried by democracies (often with pretty successful economies and historically good relations) like Brazil and India hinting they'll support it.
If by the UN recognising Palestine it means the Arab League, plus a few African states then I don't think it necessarily represents any sort of problem for Israel. If the world's democracies do I think that is a bit more of a problem.
Quote from: dps on September 03, 2011, 05:19:33 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 02, 2011, 09:04:12 PM
But this Israeli government can't deal with them and they could very soon be facing a nightmare scenario of the UN recognising Palestine and Barghouti's peaceful million man march - which will no doubt be joined by Palestinians elsewhere.
I doubt that the Isreali government really cares if the UN recognizes Palestine or not. A peaceful mass protest by the Palestinians, if they can actually manage it, is, I think, much more of a nightmare for Isreal.
Yeah, they care about what the UN says just a little less then the US does. A peaceful Palestinian movement would likely work. I think it would be a nightmare only for the hardliners and hawks. Most Israelis would welcome a real peace, and understand and accept the surrender of some territory. The problem is that they've been burned too often in the past.
And in response to this the Foreign Office in Israel reportedly suggesting moving to support the PKK and even think of supplying them with arms, offering to get chummy with the Armenians and spending time in the UN pushing motions condemning Turkey's treatment of minorities.
Of course the Prime Minister's office has said that these were just ideas and Israel's policy is committed to repairing relations.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2011, 06:59:28 AM
And in response to this the Foreign Office in Israel reportedly suggesting moving to support the PKK and even think of supplying them with arms, offering to get chummy with the Armenians and spending time in the UN pushing motions condemning Turkey's treatment of minorities.
Of course the Prime Minister's office has said that these were just ideas and Israel's policy is committed to repairing relations.
The Foreign policy of Israel has been nuty in the last few years. It's like they've been intentionally sabotaging what the government is doing.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2011, 06:59:28 AM
And in response to this the Foreign Office in Israel reportedly suggesting moving to support the PKK and even think of supplying them with arms, offering to get chummy with the Armenians and spending time in the UN pushing motions condemning Turkey's treatment of minorities.
Of course the Prime Minister's office has said that these were just ideas and Israel's policy is committed to repairing relations.
The Foreign policy of Israel has been nuty in the last few years. It's like they've been intentionally sabotaging what the government is doing.
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 10, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
Lieberman's from Yisrael Beitein which is the third largest party in the Knesset. They generally reresent the Russian-speaking Israelis (I think their name means 'Our Israel' which reflects that those Israelis were perhaps previously marginalised in Israeli politics) and I think especially non-religious settlers. They're having a pretty negative influence on Israeli politics in my view.
They're nutbar in the sense that their views are extreme, but they're not one of the small religious parties that cause problems in Israeli coalition they're a significant party.
Edit: They're also larger than, say, Ehud Barak's party, or Labour (:weep: :wub:).
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 10, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
Yeah, some extremist. The guy has worked very hard to damage relations with the Saudis and Turkey. God knows why, maybe he wants another war. I don't understand why they haven't sacked him. I guess he's popular in Israel, but undermines the rest of the government. It's like if they made Siege their foreign minister.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2011, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 10, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
Yeah, some extremist. The guy has worked very hard to damage relations with the Saudis and Turkey. God knows why, maybe he wants another war. I don't understand why they haven't sacked him. I guess he's popular in Israel, but undermines the rest of the government. It's like if they made Siege their foreign minister.
If he is an Eastern European, that's understandable. People in these parts seem to hold a view that foreign politics is about dignity, ego and "being right", rather than pursuing interests.
Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2011, 02:23:26 PMIf he is an Eastern European, that's understandable. People in these parts seem to hold a view that foreign politics is about dignity, ego and "being right", rather than pursuing interests.
He's Russian. According to wikileaks the Krelmin consider him 'our man' in Israel.
What you said sort of goes with him talking about even considering an apology to be a sign of national weakness.
QuoteI hope all the people who thought the islamists winning in Turkey was not a bad thing eat their hats now.
:lmfao:
Cute.
Israel 20 Years Ago: Secular, militaristic, hostile to neighbors, functional democracy with the greatest economy in the Middle East.
Turkey 20 Years Ago: Secular, militaristic, largely isolationist, semi-functional pseudo-democracy with a relatively weak economy.
No obvious conflicts, areas of mutual interest, lots of similarities. The Turks and Israelis both disliked the Arab Middle-East, both had an interest in maintaining military superiority over local Arab neighbors, and had a reasonably similar political ideology.
Israel Today: Secular but coerced by fanatical Settlers and the Putinesque Lieberman, militaristic, hostile to neighbors, semi-functional democracy with an incredibly vibrant economy.
Turkey Today: Secular but influenced by Islamist-leaning Erdogan and Davutoglu, militaristic, expanding influence and clout in the ME, more functionally democratic with an incredibly vibrant economy.
Obvious areas of conflict, but interestingly there are-if anything-more similarities now than there were 20 years ago. Turkey wants to expand it's clout in the Middle East, and sees (non-military) conflict with Israel as a crucial part of that strategy. This is likely increasingly important as Turkey's attempts at strengthening ties with it's autocratic near abroad complicated it's image in the Arab street during the Arab Spring. I think this is rather clever, to be honest
But I forgot; the Turks should just do whatever the fuck the crumbling EU says so that Tamas and Martinus can't accuse Erdogan of being a towel-head, even though these are the same people who would not let Turkey in to the EU if the Turkish president was a lesbian atheist.
I'd vote for accepting Armenia over Turkey. :frog:
Quote from: Queequeg on September 10, 2011, 04:04:38 PM
Israel 20 Years Ago: Secular, militaristic, hostile to neighbors, functional democracy with the greatest economy in the Middle East.
Turkey 20 Years Ago: Secular, militaristic, largely isolationist, semi-functional pseudo-democracy with a relatively weak economy.
No obvious conflicts, areas of mutual interest, lots of similarities. The Turks and Israelis both disliked the Arab Middle-East, both had an interest in maintaining military superiority over local Arab neighbors, and had a reasonably similar political ideology.
Israel Today: Secular but coerced by fanatical Settlers and the Putinesque Lieberman, militaristic, hostile to neighbors, semi-functional democracy with an incredibly vibrant economy.
Turkey Today: Secular but influenced by Islamist-leaning Erdogan and Davutoglu, militaristic, expanding influence and clout in the ME, more functionally democratic with an incredibly vibrant economy.
Obvious areas of conflict, but interestingly there are-if anything-more similarities now than there were 20 years ago. Turkey wants to expand it's clout in the Middle East, and sees (non-military) conflict with Israel as a crucial part of that strategy. This is likely increasingly important as Turkey's attempts at strengthening ties with it's autocratic near abroad complicated it's image in the Arab street during the Arab Spring. I think this is rather clever, to be honest
But I forgot; the Turks should just do whatever the fuck the crumbling EU says so that Tamas and Martinus can't accuse Erdogan of being a towel-head, even though these are the same people who would not let Turkey in to the EU if the Turkish president was a lesbian atheist.
You caught me on a double standard there - I am a known supporter of Israel on this board.
Seriously, though, I wouldn't let either of them in.
They should be happy they are in the Eurovision. That's as far as they will get as far as I am concerned.
The picture of Apartheid Israel saddens me more than that of Islamicistic Turkey.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2011, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 10, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
It's like if they made Siege their foreign minister.
Wrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
He wants to give away israeli land, as the far left wants, in exchange for a paper that says "peace", and all his "right winginism" is about hatred of israeli arabs.
The guy ain't a right winger, he is just a racist, banking on pro-ashkenazi domination.
And he never served in Southern Lebanon, nor in the infantry, let alone in the Golani.
Giving away Israeli land is absolutely critical.
Quote from: Siege on September 12, 2011, 07:28:02 PMWrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
He wants to give away israeli land, as the far left wants, in exchange for a paper that says "peace", and all his "right winginism" is about hatred of israeli arabs.
The guy ain't a right winger, he is just a racist, banking on pro-ashkenazi domination.
And he never served in Southern Lebanon, nor in the infantry, let alone in the Golani.
Siege, I've read a lot about him being pretty hardcore irreligious (as I believe is common in the Russian-speaking community in Israel) and sometimes quite anti-religious but do you have any examples of it?
Quote from: Siege on September 12, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2011, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 10, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
It's like if they made Siege their foreign minister.
Wrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
He wants to give away israeli land, as the far left wants, in exchange for a paper that says "peace", and all his "right winginism" is about hatred of israeli arabs.
The guy ain't a right winger, he is just a racist, banking on pro-ashkenazi domination.
And he never served in Southern Lebanon, nor in the infantry, let alone in the Golani.
It's trading some land a pretty mainstream position? I was under the impression that all the major political parties had accepted that some land will have to be lost.
Quote from: Siege on September 12, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
Wrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
Statements like this make me tremble with fear. Being too whacko for Seigy puts you pretty high on the crazy-meter.
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 01:08:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on September 12, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
Wrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
Statements like this make me tremble with fear. Being too whacko for Seigy puts you pretty high on the crazy-meter.
It was Seige's condemnation of him being racist against Arabs is what made my eyes pop.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 13, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 01:08:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on September 12, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
Wrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
Statements like this make me tremble with fear. Being too whacko for Seigy puts you pretty high on the crazy-meter.
It was Seige's condemnation of him being racist against Arabs is what made my eyes pop.
I'm pretty sure Siegy's condemnation was not about the hating israeli arabs bit but rather about only hating israeli arabs.
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:21:27 PM
Yes grumbler, but with the shit going down in Syria, the non-revolution unfolding in Egypt, and Palestine about to be recognized by the UN. NOT GOOD
When was the last time good news came out of the Middlle East?
Founding of the State of Israel, her victories over the Arabs and her continued existence.
2000 BC - Egyptians Invent Beer
1500 BC - Sumerians Invent Wine
1000 BC - Phonecians Invent Spirits
350 BC - Babylonian Jews Invent the idea of Human Equality
250 CB - Macedonian Egyptians Invent Science
since then it's been pretty barren in terms of good news... despite what the Christians keep saying..
Quote from: Octavian on September 13, 2011, 03:23:45 AMFounding of the State of Israel, her victories over the Arabs and her continued existence.
:)
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 05:45:23 AM
2000 BC - Egyptians Invent Beer
1500 BC - Sumerians Invent Wine
1000 BC - Phonecians Invent Spirits
350 BC - Babylonian Jews Invent the idea of Human Equality
250 CB - Macedonian Egyptians Invent Science
since then it's been pretty barren in terms of good news... despite what the Christians keep saying..
Wait, you consider that "Science"?
Quote from: Octavian on September 13, 2011, 03:23:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 02, 2011, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 02, 2011, 01:21:27 PM
Yes grumbler, but with the shit going down in Syria, the non-revolution unfolding in Egypt, and Palestine about to be recognized by the UN. NOT GOOD
When was the last time good news came out of the Middlle East?
Founding of the State of Israel, her victories over the Arabs and her continued existence.
I'll give you the second and third, but the first was a victory by terrorists, and thus bad.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2011, 07:19:40 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 05:45:23 AM
2000 BC - Egyptians Invent Beer
1500 BC - Sumerians Invent Wine
1000 BC - Phonecians Invent Spirits
350 BC - Babylonian Jews Invent the idea of Human Equality
250 CB - Macedonian Egyptians Invent Science
since then it's been pretty barren in terms of good news... despite what the Christians keep saying..
Wait, you consider that "Science"?
Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 10, 2011, 02:14:09 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on September 10, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Isn't the Foreign Minister from one of the nutbar parties of Bibi's coalition?
Lieberman's from Yisrael Beitein which is the third largest party in the Knesset. They generally reresent the Russian-speaking Israelis (I think their name means 'Our Israel' which reflects that those Israelis were perhaps previously marginalised in Israeli politics) and I think especially non-religious settlers. They're having a pretty negative influence on Israeli politics in my view.
They're nutbar in the sense that their views are extreme, but they're not one of the small religious parties that cause problems in Israeli coalition they're a significant party.
Edit: They're also larger than, say, Ehud Barak's party, or Labour (:weep: :wub:).
Yeah, for whatever reason, Russian Jewish immigrants tend to be very fascist in their outlook, whether in Israel or in US.
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 05:45:23 AM
2000 BC - Egyptians Invent Beer
1500 BC - Sumerians Invent Wine
1000 BC - Phonecians Invent Spirits
350 BC - Babylonian Jews Invent the idea of Human Equality
250 CB - Macedonian Egyptians Invent Science
since then it's been pretty barren in terms of good news... despite what the Christians keep saying..
If science wasn't invented until 250 BC how do we know the earlier dates?
Quote from: DGuller on September 13, 2011, 09:19:15 AM
Yeah, for whatever reason, Russian Jewish immigrants tend to be very fascist in their outlook, whether in Israel or in US.
Communism rots the brain. :(
More fun:
QuoteTurkish PM Erdogan pushes Palestinian statehood
Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that recognition of a Palestinian state is an obligation not an option.
He told the Arab League that before the year's end "we will see Palestine in a very different situation".
Mr Erdogan made a new attack on Israel, saying its government's mentality was a barrier to peace in the Middle East.
The Palestinians are currently preparing a bid for United Nations membership despite Israeli and US opposition.
Mr Erdogan is in Egypt as part of a tour of three Arab states that recently ousted their leaders, in an attempt to improve Turkey's standing in the region.
Turkey's relations with Israel have worsened since Israeli forces boarded an aid ship in May last year as it was heading for Gaza.
Nine Turkish activists were killed during the raid. Israel has refused to apologise and said its troops acted in self-defence.
'Spoilt child'
The Turkish leader, who has won popularity among Arabs for his denunciations of Israel, was earlier met by an enthusiastic crowd in Cairo.
Mr Erdogan called for support for the Palestinians' attempt to achieve recognition at the UN.
Continue reading the main story "Start QuoteLet's raise the Palestinian flag and let that flag be the symbol of peace and justice in the Middle East"
End Quote Recep Tayyip Erdogan Turkish prime minister
"We must work hand in hand with our Palestinian brothers. The Palestinian cause is the cause of human dignity," he told a foreign ministers' meeting at the Cairo headquarters of the Arab League. His remarks were broadcast live on Egyptian TV.
"It's time to raise the Palestinian flag at the United Nations. Let's raise the Palestinian flag and let that flag be the symbol of peace and justice in the Middle East."
He accused Israel of behaving like a spoilt child and building a blockade round its own people through its policies.
"Israel will break away from solitude only when it acts as a reasonable, responsible, serious and normal state," he said.
The BBC's Jonathan Head in Cairo says that, while there were no new threats in the speech, it was fiery enough to sustain Mr Erdogan's reputation as a champion of ordinary people in the Arab world without alarming Arab governments that have resisted change.
The Turkish prime minister made an appeal for freedom and democracy in the region.
"The legitimate demands of the people cannot be repressed with force and in blood," he said.
"Freedom and democracy and human rights must be a united slogan for the future of our people."
Meanwhile in a newspaper interview published on Tuesday, Mr Erdogan warned of possible civil war in Syria between majority Sunni Muslims and Alawites, who make up the ruling elite.
More than 2,500 people have already died there in pro-democracy protests since March.
Mr Erdogan's tour will continue with a visit to Tunisia, where the popular overthrow of President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali in January sparked similar movements across the region, including Libya.
Mr Erdogan has said he will not attempt to carry out his plan to travel to Gaza from Egypt during this trip, but hopes that he can travel there in the near future.
The legitimate demands of the Armenian people cannot be repressed by force and in blood.
Palestinian statehood does however look to have an air of inevitability to it.
He made a very important contribution saying he hoped for Egypt would have a 'secular' constitution and be a 'secular' state and described himself as a 'Muslim Prime Minister of a secular state'. Here's some of the lines:
'Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Monday called on Egyptians to adopt a secular constitution, noting that secularism does not mean renouncing religion.
A secular state respects all religions, Erdogan said in an interview with the private satellite TV channel Dream before heading to Egypt for a two-day visit.
"Do not be wary of secularism. I hope there will be a secular state in Egypt," Erdogan said.'
That's leading the reports of the video in the Egyptian press and he's making a key point that secularism doesn't mean hostility to religion. I think it often seems that way, especially to Muslims, because everyone keeps opposing Islam to democracy and pushing for extreme Franco-Turkish style laicity as the only alternative. I think the successful coexistance of a secular debate and a vibrant religious life makes America a model for this. Sadly the people who most like America's religiosity seem most ooppose to Muslims voting.
Well, always keep in mind who a politican is saying these stuff to.
Like our PM. He has been a raving laisez faire capitalist to business cycles, a firm believer of NATO and EU to foreign diplomats, and a raving nationalist isolationist state capitalist to his voters.
That's how populists operate.
It does not really matter what is Erdogan saying to the more sophisticated crowd, while he is using intolerance and anti-semitism to mobilize his country. The practical effect will be the same, regardless of how much he actually believes the bullshit he is pouring out.
And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 12:41:42 PM
Well, always keep in mind who a politican is saying these stuff to.
He said it in an interview to an Egyptian TV channel :mellow:
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 13, 2011, 12:50:58 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 12:41:42 PM
Well, always keep in mind who a politican is saying these stuff to.
He said it in an interview to an Egyptian TV channel :mellow:
ok then :P
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 08:40:55 AM
Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.
I would consider Science to be born around the 17th century with the scientific method. Putting the invention of Science back that far has some interesting results though. Results I'm not sure you would be happy with.
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.
It's not as big a deal as you think.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2011, 01:43:03 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 08:40:55 AM
Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.
I would consider Science to be born around the 17th century with the scientific method. Putting the invention of Science back that far has some interesting results though. Results I'm not sure you would be happy with.
So... how do you define science then? Nothing in the Baconian Method or Inductive Reasoning (usually considered the philosophical pillars of science in the 17th century) does not exist in Greek Philosophy. The Ionian Enlightenment Philosophers were not only methodological materialists, but philosophical materialists as well, Aristotle was without a doubt the first modernist (though maybe not a materialist) and the Library of Alexandria systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos. Science is systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos imho.
modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world
materialism - the belief that all that exists is material
Quote from: derspiess on September 13, 2011, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.
It's not as big a deal as you think.
On it's own it may not be a big deal, but it is an excellent example for the general state of things. .
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 13, 2011, 12:02:47 PM
A secular state respects all religions
This line is a classic example showing why the religious do not understand what "secular" means. This statement is worthless, when it comes to secularism, when it does not also add that it respects the non-religious worldview.
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 03:28:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 13, 2011, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.
It's not as big a deal as you think.
On it's own it may not be a big deal, but it is an excellent example for the general state of things. .
It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.
You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 03:28:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on September 13, 2011, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: Tamas on September 13, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.
It's not as big a deal as you think.
On it's own it may not be a big deal, but it is an excellent example for the general state of things. .
It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.
You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.
Well, supporting a state or not is an ideological/emotional preference. There may be less grounds to like North Korea than the Netherlands, but still both preferences are subjective no matter what they are, be it nationalism, love of personal freedom, or communist nuttery. These are all subjective things, so religion has their fair place with them. (not to say that people can't be judged by others based on their preference in this matter)
Stuff like denying evolution is entirely different however, because that is a scientific fact. You can debate about wether it is good to have a Stalinist regime rather than a liberal democracy, or to tolerate gays or force them to hiding. At the end of the debate one of the choices will be enacted. But no matter how much you quote Genesis, evolution will remain a fact.
Well to me supporting a state *because* it's where a mythical battle of angels and demons is going to be fought and we need to help it come faster is way cooky-er than believing long time ago god made humans from clay.
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 03:06:54 PM
modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world
I am curious: where do you get that definition of modernism from ?
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
Well to me supporting a state *because* it's where a mythical battle of angels and demons is going to be fought and we need to help it come faster is way cooky-er than believing long time ago god made humans from clay.
Well considering support for Israel is possibly the only thing that every political faction in the US seem to agree on I am not sure that particular reason to support them is particularly influential.
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 13, 2011, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 03:06:54 PM
modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world
I am curious: where do you get that definition of modernism from ?
Bertrand Russel's History of Western Civilization. But, honestly it is a really really bad word to use for anything since the etymology is "of the present time". The word describes different new ideas for different fields. Philosophical Modernism has nothing to do with Art Modernism.
But, honestly, I use the word a catch all for enlightenment ideas which survived the romantic counter-enlightenment and exist today in science and analytical philosophy. My short definition is pretty good at collecting those ideas together and obviously defining my usage of the word was necessary to avoid confusion.
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 03:06:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2011, 01:43:03 PM
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 08:40:55 AM
Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.
I would consider Science to be born around the 17th century with the scientific method. Putting the invention of Science back that far has some interesting results though. Results I'm not sure you would be happy with.
So... how do you define science then? Nothing in the Baconian Method or Inductive Reasoning (usually considered the philosophical pillars of science in the 17th century) does not exist in Greek Philosophy. The Ionian Enlightenment Philosophers were not only methodological materialists, but philosophical materialists as well, Aristotle was without a doubt the first modernist (though maybe not a materialist) and the Library of Alexandria systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos. Science is systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos imho.
modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world
materialism - the belief that all that exists is material
I define science as the systematic acquisition of knowledge through the scientific method. The Greeks did systematize knowledge but came to many of their conclusions through intuition rather then experimentation. This was okay in pure mathematics, but less so for things like biology or chemistry. As a result their knowledge was often of limited use. They sat around wondering if Achilles could in fact out pace a turtle rather then give much thought to were bugs come from (they thought they just spontaneously arouse from dirt). I would say they were not "Modernist" and most were not materialist in the modern sense of the word. Democritus is a perfect example of this. His theory of atoms is somewhat similar to the idea of modern elements. He came to his conclusions through deductive reasoning not experimentation. His theory wasn't very useful. It didn't make predictions on how to separate elements or bind them together or such. The modern theory of atoms does, and is quite useful several fields.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.
You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.
As opposed to the enlightened anti-semitism of Europe which dictates how they view Israel.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 13, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
Quote from: Viking on September 13, 2011, 01:08:19 AM
Quote from: Siege on September 12, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
Wrong. Avigdor Lieberman is a wako with no consistent policies.
Statements like this make me tremble with fear. Being too whacko for Seigy puts you pretty high on the crazy-meter.
It was Seige's condemnation of him being racist against Arabs is what made my eyes pop.
I am not racist of arabs, or anybody for that matter.
I am a sworn enemy of Islam and of muslims, regardless of their ethnicity.
Though I do confess I have an special relationship with arab muslims.
Avigdor Lieberman, on the other hand, hates not only arabs, but israeli arabs, because of ethnicity.
Many israeli arabs, though not the majority, are rather secular, many being bussiness owners, or whatever, and people like Lieberman are radicalizing this segment of the israeli arab population and pushing them into the hands of the radicals.
I am in the bussiness of killing enemies, not in the bussiness of CREATING more enemies.
Quote from: Siege on September 13, 2011, 07:20:05 PM
I am not racist of arabs, or anybody for that matter.
I am a sworn enemy of Islam and of muslims, regardless of their ethnicity.
Though I do confess I have an special relationship with arab muslims.
There are Muslims in the US Army. I have forwarded your post to the Commander-in-Chief so that you can be tried and executed.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2011, 06:18:12 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.
You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.
As opposed to the enlightened anti-semitism of Europe which dictates how they view Israel.
^_^
QuoteIsraeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."
Words fail.
Fucking great.
While I dissapprove of this escalation by the Israeli FM, I would like to hear the difference between supporting a Kurdish terrorist organization, and blockade running to support Hamas.
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2011, 01:38:08 AM
While I dissapprove of this escalation by the Israeli FM, I would like to hear the difference between supporting a Kurdish terrorist organization, and blockade running to support Hamas.
The blockade running (is this the proper term?) is not to support Hamas, but has humanitarian goals, at least prima facie.
If the Turks were meeting with Hamas officials then you would have an analogy.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 14, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
QuoteIsraeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."
Words fail.
I would love to see Israel help Kurds so Turkey can invoke article 5 of the NATO treaty over this. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 01:43:14 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 14, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
QuoteIsraeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."
Words fail.
I would love to see Israel help Kurds so Turkey can invoke article 5 of the NATO treaty over this. :lol:
This reminds me: you spend a LOT of effort trying to be this special snowflake in east euro Poland, and I do understand where you are coming from. Yet, you fail to realize the most mainstream and tying attitude you share with the lowest echelons of your home society: anti-semitism
You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.
There is clearly such an INTERNAL conflict within Israel, which appears to be full of fascist religious whackos around places of power.
But Israel's outside conflicts -no matter how much they are caused by the internal right-wing fucktards- are conflicts between a largely western-style democracy and medieval populism. The world can only become a worse place by Israel's destruction (and this conflict on the long run will either end by Israel and the 1st world smacking the Arabs into submission and admittance of defeat, or the total destruction of Israel. No alternatives).
I don't want destruction of Israel. I just want its right wing nationalistic government to be snubbed. The unwavering, unconditional support of the US for the Israel's foreign and internal policies does not help removing the right wing hawks from power there.
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 01:43:14 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 14, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
QuoteIsraeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."
Words fail.
I would love to see Israel help Kurds so Turkey can invoke article 5 of the NATO treaty over this. :lol:
The kurds don't have a country, and unlike AQ there also no country giving them shelter. The Kurds are an internal Turkish problem. Article 5 doesn't apply. Ever.
I meant the article being invoked against Israel, of course. If Israel was funding/aiding an insurrection in the Turkish territory, then it could be seen as an act of aggression.
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.
Lieberman and his party aren't at all religious, which is cause of a big divide within Israeli society. As Siegey points out he's more of a racist, ultra-natonalist. His party's been pushing (unsuccessfully) for loyalty oaths and has (successfully) banned opposition to the blockade. I think they're also trying to investigate left-wing NGOs and charities for, in effect, giving comfort to the enemy.
It seems he can't get a break though. Apparently the PKK are demanding an apology from Israel for helping the Turks arrest their leader back in the 80s or 90s :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 14, 2011, 06:15:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.
Lieberman and his party aren't at all religious, which is cause of a big divide within Israeli society. As Siegey points out he's more of a racist, ultra-natonalist. His party's been pushing (unsuccessfully) for loyalty oaths and has (successfully) banned opposition to the blockade. I think they're also trying to investigate left-wing NGOs and charities for, in effect, giving comfort to the enemy.
It seems he can't get a break though. Apparently the PKK are demanding an apology from Israel for helping the Turks arrest their leader back in the 80s or 90s :lol:
:lol:
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.
Because their enemies are left wing international secularists? I just figured the Israelis were trying to fit in better in the neighborhood.
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 01:43:14 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on September 14, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
QuoteIsraeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."
Words fail.
I would love to see Israel help Kurds so Turkey can invoke article 5 of the NATO treaty over this. :lol:
Yeah, because then when the western countries abandon NATO because they won't fight Israel, Poland can be a part of Russia again.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 14, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
QuoteIsraeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."
Words fail.
See, this is the shit I was talking about. It's like Lieberman is trying to sabotage relations. Israel's position has always been precarious. Less so now then it has in the past but still precarious. A country like China or France can get away with doing stupid shit like this. There is little risk. Israel doesn't have that luxury. Missteps in foreign relations can destroy Israel.
Have you guys seen the videos that Lieberman's ministry just posted in youtube?
http://youtu.be/QAuBc_cbXo0 (http://youtu.be/QAuBc_cbXo0)
http://youtu.be/XGYxLWUKwWo (http://youtu.be/XGYxLWUKwWo)
They're presented by Danny Ayalon, Lieberman's deputy, and explain the israeli-palestinian conflict (1st video about the West Bank, 2nd video about the peace process) with the help of some nice Fallout-esque cartoons.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fanneinpt.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F07%2Fwestbank2.jpg&hash=8ea3e4c49ff44276c415ba97296e76295436260c)
A state founded through terrorism must endure terrorism, as they've legitimized it. It's the same reason that the US has to endure violent, atavistic nonsense like the Second Amendment.
Quote from: Neil on September 14, 2011, 12:42:10 PM
A state founded through terrorism must endure terrorism, as they've legitimized it. It's the same reason that the US has to endure violent, atavistic nonsense like the Second Amendment.
Freedom isn't something we endure, it's something we not only embrace, but demand. A monarchist such as yourself will never understand this.
Danny Ayalon of course publically humiliated the Turkish ambassador a couple of years ago. Labor were still in coalition then and one of their cabinet ministers was sent to Ankara to try and patch relations up, saying the behaviour was 'uncalled for' and even President Peres apologised and said it was the misjudgements of 'one man, not of the state'. Eventually Ayalon had to apologise too.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 14, 2011, 12:49:00 PM
Danny Ayalon of course publically humiliated the Turkish ambassador a couple of years ago. Labor were still in coalition then and one of their cabinet ministers was sent to Ankara to try and patch relations up, saying the behaviour was 'uncalled for' and even President Peres apologised and said it was the misjudgements of 'one man, not of the state'. Eventually Ayalon had to apologise too.
Danny Ayalon is another useless idiot. He's of the same party as Leiberman isn't he? Those guys are going to destroy Israel is they don't watch out. I'm not using hyperbole here. Israel can't afford deliberately antagonizing it's few allies. I mean, you'd think these guys were secretly Palestinian agents provocateurs.
Quote from: Tamas on September 14, 2011, 01:38:08 AM
While I dissapprove of this escalation by the Israeli FM, I would like to hear the difference between supporting a Kurdish terrorist organization, and blockade running to support Hamas.
None really. They are both bad ideas. Admittedly the Kurds are a separatist group while Hamas is not (at least I don't think so), but in practice they are pretty similar. And it's a tremendously bad idea.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 14, 2011, 01:37:20 PMDanny Ayalon is another useless idiot. He's of the same party as Leiberman isn't he? Those guys are going to destroy Israel is they don't watch out. I'm not using hyperbole here. Israel can't afford deliberately antagonizing it's few allies. I mean, you'd think these guys were secretly Palestinian agents provocateurs.
Same party.
I agree. I'm very supportive of Israel as a democratic Jewish state and I think the behaviour of this government has been genuinely very damaging. This is a time when Israel's needs giants and it's got pygmies. It takes a lot to make Olmert look like a statesman, but I think it's happened.
And I think it's worth saying that this problem isn't just Lieberman and Ayalon, it's Netanyahu too as I think this Jeffrey Goldberg article suggests (worth noting he's pro-Obama and pro-Kadima):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-06/robert-gates-says-israel-is-an-ungrateful-ally-jeffrey-goldberg.html
Israel have and will probably always have Congress's support, but when they're losing everyone else I just don't think it's sustainable. In that sense I think America's support of Israel has almost been a hindrance. And for what it's worth my view is roughly the same as Gates. Israel deserves support because it's the right thing to do but her leadership are endangering her future and burning bridges with her friends around the world.
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 14, 2011, 01:46:53 PM
Israel deserves support because it's the right thing to do but her leadership are endangering her future and burning bridges with her friends around the world.
What friends are they burning their bridges to?
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 15, 2011, 01:23:43 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on September 14, 2011, 01:46:53 PM
Israel deserves support because it's the right thing to do but her leadership are endangering her future and burning bridges with her friends around the world.
What friends are they burning their bridges to?
Well the Turks for one. Israel has had a reasonably good relationship with Turkey and the current government seems hell bent on destroying that relationship. The Saudis are another. Officially the Saudis hate Israel, but they have been working together on the sly. The Israeli government revealing this working relationship sabotaged the whole thing. Something that is just baffling. Bibi's government has tried to embarrass the US president as well, (no clue why), but Obama just grinned and bared it. Relations with Europe have become more strained but that's not entirely Israel's fault.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on September 15, 2011, 01:23:43 AMWhat friends are they burning their bridges to?
As Raz says the Turks and the Saudis. Almost all of Latin America have now said they support the Palestinians on the UN declaration. Europe's still the key battleground on that with Germany and Italy opposing the vote while the French and Spanish will probably vote for it and for all the snide remarks European governments have always been generally pro-Israel.
But they've also upset, as that article suggests, all sorts of politicians in the US Administration (and Bibi has history on this) and when you're upsetting everyone from Gates and Emanuel through Clinton and Daley I'd suggest you're making mistakes in your behaviour.
As I say the sad thing is that a creative Israeli Prime Minister a leader with some sense beyond political tactics could have made this quite useful. Goldberg recently wrote that as this Palestinian declaration is based on a two state solution Israel should have basically changed it into challenging the UN to declare its understanding of Israel, within 1967 borders (which won't happen), as the national home of the Jewish people. A smart leader could have made this about whether Arab states and Iran would be willing to acknowledge Israel in the UN for the sake of a Palestinian state.
Correct me if I am wrong but it was the Turks who decided to draw Israeli aggro, in an effort to switch their focus from the EU to Muslim dominance.
Of course, this Russian prick of a jewish FM is way too keen to play their game, but hey.
Speaking of Muslim dominance, this could be an interesting play in the long run. Turkey is entering a game with at least two players already (Saudis and Iran), isn't it?
It's just as well the Israelis have the Arabs, otherwise the former would be their own worst enemy.
Quote from: Martinus on September 14, 2011, 02:41:13 AM
You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.
Don't sweat it, Mart. To hear them tell it, the Israelis have trouble making that distinction, too.
Call 'em out for being hamfisted, and you're automatically an anti-semite.
Quote from: Tamas on September 15, 2011, 03:55:08 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but it was the Turks who decided to draw Israeli aggro, in an effort to switch their focus from the EU to Muslim dominance.
The Turks and Israelis had minor spats but were still reasonably close until the Gaza war. The year before that Peres was praising the Turks and they were being used mediators with Syria. It's only three or four years ago that Peres addressed the Turkish Parliament and Abdullah Gul was trying to negotiate Shalit's release, with Israeli backing.
Gaza, I think, changed everything it made the Turkish population far less happy with Israel which increased the pressure to take a more strident position. Immediately after Gaza the current Israeli coalition are elected and I think their foreign policy's been pretty cackhanded since.