Looks like I might be spending more time attending Speaker's Corner when I'm up in London, so I thought I'd start an occasional thread on the subject.
Last Sunday I popped into London, partially to meet some friends at Speaker's Corner, do my bit/gig and to try and find someone.
I was looking for a homeless friend of mine, well really an acquaintance, who only goes by the name of 'Friend' but is well known in the 'community'; no ones seen him for 6-7 months, I had a couple of leads but now that traditional meeting places are largely gone ie under the bridges at Waterloo people are more dispersed. So I didn't really get anywhere, though next time I'll send more time and trying using the web to see if I can find anything first.
The guys an interesting character, because on the face of it, if you were from a conventional background and judged a book by its cover, you'd just dismiss him as a old hippy. You might even still have that opinion after talking with him for 5 minutes, you might say he's just someone who took a lot of acid and never really came back.
But listen a bit more, don't make any assumptions about him and what's surprising is a lot off what he says makes sense, in that it originates from a particular viewpoint or philosophy, you might not agree with it, but I think what he represents is a genuine, internally coherent, development of the 60's love and peace mantra. Maybe he's a guru, but doesn't know it !
I like going to the place because you meet all sorts of characters, the lonely, the slightly mad, the curious, migrants and immigrants from all over the world. And of course plenty of tourists.
The nicest encounter I had this time was with a pair of American grandparents, they were over in the UK taking their 11-12 year old grandson on a special holiday; the deal was to get the holiday, he had to research and plan all of the activities. Which is why they ended up at speaker's corner, one of the top things he wanted to do was speak there, he'd even bought his own 'soap box' for the occasion, he was quite a small lad for his age and the first subject he chose was the role of 'sports' in American life. He did rather well, I bowled him a slightly softball question about might 'sport's be regarded as the new opium of the masses and he came right back with good reply.
Talking to them later it was unusual just how both clued up about the world this young lad was and he had a real enthusiasm for the wider issues; I think I might have met a future senior US political figure !
I impressed upon his grand parents just how gift the lad was, as compared to most of the speakers here, and didn't once mention Languish !
The people I most enjoy talking/debating with are the refugees, this time I found out a bit about the personal histories of a couple of the marxists I sometimes chat with, one is an Iraqi communist, who's had the most extra ordinary life, as you can image with recent history, but it's hard to convey here.
This time I was mainly speaking about climate change, but from the perspective of planetary physics, generally had a good reception and some of the follow discussions were engaging and fun. But what I found odds was several people said they found it odd that someone should be talking about science at a place like speakers corner.
And I guess they've got a point, there's a scientist/physicist who is sometimes there to talk about the big bang, but other than that most of the speakers tend to fall into the religious evangelist camp or are people trolling* on the theme of the clash of civilisations between Islam and Christianity. Indeed as the day wears on these groups tend to dominate the area.
Other than that you have muslim preachers, who mainly seem to engage with fellow muslims, so sometimes its hard for Westerners to get in and mix it up.
Additionally there's a long standing Marxist speaker, who is well respected by the community there. Plus a couple of noteworthy speakers are comedians who originated in the early days of the 'alternative comedy' circuit and their acts are well worth catching. But that's largely the measure of the place.
Most of the rest of the speakers are slightly mentally unbalance, myself not excluded. :P
Actually the people who do some occasional speaking, are often the best value for money, on Sunday there was one guy whose main platform was that feminism was responsible for most social ills including the recent riots. But clearly this guy was in no way bitter about any particular personal incidents, it just came over as that.
* I say trolling because, you get these intense American/Northern Irish or newly converted christians who intensely preach the gospel and since debate isn't an option with these people, you get Westernised muslims just trolling the crap out of them. It's highly amusing and one of the best is this very amusing Moroccan guy, though you have to be there to appreciate it.
What are the unofficial rules mongers?
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 05:35:37 PM
The guys an interesting character, because on the face of it, if you were from a conventional background and judged a book by its cover, you'd just dismiss him as a old hippy. You might even still have that opinion after talking with him for 5 minutes, you might say he's just someone who took a lot of acid and never really came back.
But listen a bit more, don't make any assumptions about him and what's surprising is a lot off what he says makes sense, in that it originates from a particular viewpoint or philosophy, you might not agree with it, but I think what he represents is a genuine, internally coherent, development of the 60's love and peace mantra. Maybe he's a guru, but doesn't know it !
Projection.
I caught a pretty wacky preacher from Jamaica in Trafalgar Square once. He had his kids there playing various instruments and things. I bet that guy does it too.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 22, 2011, 05:44:41 PM
What are the unofficial rules mongers?
None that I know off, though weirdly I got into a bit of a 'discussion' with a support of some 'Ian Paisley' type Northern Irish evangelical preacher who was holding forth, and this guy was insisting that you couldn't interrupt the 'speaker', mine and others opinions were different. :rolleyes:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 22, 2011, 05:44:57 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 05:35:37 PM
The guys an interesting character, because on the face of it, if you were from a conventional background and judged a book by its cover, you'd just dismiss him as a old hippy. You might even still have that opinion after talking with him for 5 minutes, you might say he's just someone who took a lot of acid and never really came back.
But listen a bit more, don't make any assumptions about him and what's surprising is a lot off what he says makes sense, in that it originates from a particular viewpoint or philosophy, you might not agree with it, but I think what he represents is a genuine, internally coherent, development of the 60's love and peace mantra. Maybe he's a guru, but doesn't know it !
Projection.
Nope, definitely not, I've know more than my fair share of hippies down the years, and more often than not, just as many are dodgy untrustworthy characters as the rest of us/what you'd expect in the wider public. This guy is genuinely interesting, because what he says has an internal consistency to it, which as you'd imagine is rare for a place like that.
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 05:50:27 PM
this guy was insisting that you couldn't interrupt the 'speaker', mine and others opinions were different. :rolleyes:
But that is half the fun!
I would love to be able to head down the speaker's corner every now and then.
You should get a video of the next time you hold forth.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 22, 2011, 05:55:53 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 05:50:27 PM
this guy was insisting that you couldn't interrupt the 'speaker', mine and others opinions were different. :rolleyes:
But that is half the fun!
I would love to be able to head down the speaker's corner every now and then.
You should get a video of the next time you hold forth.
Yes, it's nice and fun, but I think setting out to make a video of yourself is definitely a vanity project; if I ever have anything worthwhile to speak about and it's coherently presented, then maybe a spectator will video it.
What I'm really interested in is helping to continue the tradition, some truly great people have spoken there in the past, so you could say doing it is a bit like an act of 'political observance' on a Sunday. Though I'm actively trying to encourage others to go there and speak.
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 05:35:37 PM
* I say trolling because, you get these intense American/Northern Irish or newly converted christians who intensely preach the gospel and since debate isn't an option with these people, you get Westernised muslims just trolling the crap out of them. It's highly amusing and one of the best is this very amusing Moroccan guy, though you have to be there to appreciate it.
Once again, mongers takes no time showing which way his colors fly, insha'allah.
the self-proclaimed hippies i've known have all been horrible people, with a single exception. lying, thieving, selfish bunch who get hooked on the worst sort of drugs and feel the need to identify to an ugly culture. one of them, a friend of an ex roommate, stole $20 from me. she now has her second child, spermed from an unknown father while she went on a cheating binge in detroit screwing a guy a night. she's also a carrier of herpes
Quote from: LaCroix on August 22, 2011, 07:38:04 PM
the self-proclaimed hippies i've known have all been horrible people, with a single exception. lying, thieving, selfish bunch who get hooked on the worst sort of drugs and feel the need to identify to an ugly culture. one of them, a friend of an ex roommate, stole $20 from me. she now has her second child, spermed from an unknown father while she went on a cheating binge in detroit screwing a guy a night. she's also a carrier of herpes
Good job you weren't talking about an ethnicity. ;)
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 07:43:51 PM
Good job you weren't talking about an ethnicity. ;)
well, except for a half-injun chick, they've all been white trash. really, they're just idiots born in the 80s who act like they know the 60s. or who have no real idea about that era and just call themselves hippies because they think it's cool. they say "peace and love," and all that, but their actions speak very different volumes
Quote from: LaCroix on August 22, 2011, 07:51:05 PM
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 07:43:51 PM
Good job you weren't talking about an ethnicity. ;)
well, except for a half-injun chick, they've all been white trash. really, they're just idiots born in the 80s who act like they know the 60s. or who have no real idea about that era and just call themselves hippies because they think it's cool. they say "peace and love," and all that, but their actions speak very different volumes
And what does any of this have to do with my friend ?
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 07:52:04 PMAnd what does any of this have to do with my friend ?
i never said anything about your friend. i just commented on the hippies i know, the modern generation and how the 60s created a movement that has decayed over the years, with the latest recruits consisting of rotten individuals--though i'm sure there were quite of those back in the day ;)
Quote from: LaCroix on August 23, 2011, 12:15:43 AM
Quote from: mongers on August 22, 2011, 07:52:04 PMAnd what does any of this have to do with my friend ?
i never said anything about your friend. i just commented on the hippies i know, the modern generation and how the 60s created a movement that has decayed over the years, with the latest recruits consisting of rotten individuals--though i'm sure there were quite of those back in the day ;)
So why bring it up at all ?
Seems like you just wanted to rant about people you have a beef with, which has nothing to do with the subject of my thread.
What exactly do you rant about?
I miss that chap who used to patrol the streets of London carrying a placard exhorting us to eat less protein so that we wouldn't be so lustful. Ah, here he is, a grade "A" nutter :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Green
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 24, 2011, 02:50:50 AM
I miss that chap who used to patrol the streets of London carrying a placard exhorting us to eat less protein so that we wouldn't be so lustful. Ah, here he is, a grade "A" nutter :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Green
Oh, me too! No trip to central London was complete without seeing him.
I've never been to Speaker's Corner, or at least not in my adult life to actually listen and debate :Embarrass: Maybe something to be corrected the next time there's a Languish fest hereabouts.
Quote from: Brazen on August 24, 2011, 04:49:43 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 24, 2011, 02:50:50 AM
I miss that chap who used to patrol the streets of London carrying a placard exhorting us to eat less protein so that we wouldn't be so lustful. Ah, here he is, a grade "A" nutter :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Green
Oh, me too! No trip to central London was complete without seeing him.
I've never been to Speaker's Corner, or at least not in my adult life to actually listen and debate :Embarrass: Maybe something to be corrected the next time there's a Languish fest hereabouts.
Maybe even conduct a languish 'thread' live. :cool:
That would certainly bemuse most onlookers. :P
Carter, Jak and I went to Speakers' Corner on our Sunday in London some seven years ago now. They boys, then 10, had a very lively debate with an American Cowboy *coughs* who was espousing his beliefs about Christianity and how Islam was evil, etc. By the end of the debate, the crowd was cheering the boys and booing the cowboy. I was actually quite proud of them, as they never devolved into typical 10-year-old boy stuff. They kept it logical, which was the cowboy's undoing. Logic has no place in religion, though he did his best to make it so.
I was rather pleased because it showed that not all Americans were as ignorant and bigoted as that old man was. In fact, one young Muslim couple, who were also arguing with the cowboy, later gave the boys a pat on the back and said that they'd saved them from thinking all Americans were stupid. (I'm sure they were just boosting the boys' self-esteem, but I wonder how far off that actually was. :hmm: )
Quote from: merithyn on August 24, 2011, 08:34:32 AM
Carter, Jak and I went to Speakers' Corner on our Sunday in London some seven years ago now. They boys, then 10, had a very lively debate with an American Cowboy *coughs* who was espousing his beliefs about Christianity and how Islam was evil, etc. By the end of the debate, the crowd was cheering the boys and booing the cowboy. I was actually quite proud of them, as they never devolved into typical 10-year-old boy stuff. They kept it logical, which was the cowboy's undoing. Logic has no place in religion, though he did his best to make it so.
I was rather pleased because it showed that not all Americans were as ignorant and bigoted as that old man was. In fact, one young Muslim couple, who were also arguing with the cowboy, later gave the boys a pat on the back and said that they'd saved them from thinking all Americans were stupid. (I'm sure they were just boosting the boys' self-esteem, but I wonder how far off that actually was. :hmm: )
Lovely story Meri, just goes to show young people do want to be challenged and do stuff out of the ordinary.
The cowboy preacher is still there, he now even has a mini-me sidekick, though from what I've seen over the years, what you've said and how he is now, his preaching as diminished into just a bit of an 'act'.
You'd be surprised, but on the whole the people who most appreciate the Speaker's Corner tradition are the American tourists.
I wonder if this is the same cowboy preacher who used to come to Durham sometimes :hmm:
Quote from: merithyn on August 24, 2011, 08:34:32 AM
Logic has no place in religion, though he did his best to make it so.
Sort of. Religion should not be some sort of logical construct relating to the physical world. I think, however, when you are doing religious stuff you at least need your logical brain awake so you can, you know, be careful of bullshit. It is when you turn it off entirely and start getting carried away you become prey for charlatans.
But that is pretty much true about anything I guess.
Quote from: Tyr on August 24, 2011, 09:00:50 AM
I wonder if this is the same cowboy preacher who used to come to Durham sometimes :hmm:
The one I was talking about and possibly Meri saw is this guy:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/moreton/3976670990/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/moreton/3976670990/)
Yep, that's the guy. I have pictures of the boys talking to him at Speakers' Corner. I'll have to see if I can scan them somewhere to post.
Quote from: merithyn on August 24, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Yep, that's the guy. I have pictures of the boys talking to him at Speakers' Corner. I'll have to see if I can scan them somewhere to post.
That would be good, there's are rather nice active flickr group you could poste them to:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/speakerscorner/pool/ (http://www.flickr.com/groups/speakerscorner/pool/)
Forgot I had an interesting chat with a young chap called Chris, he was selling most of his remaining possessions on the the Monday and on Tuesday was planning to leave London to go and live with some friends in Happy Valley in North Wales.
He was only taking what he could carry, a change of clothing, tent and walking stick.
I think if you feel you're trapped in London living in a small flat in a none too nice area, maybe, if you're still young, these sorts of upping sticks and trying an this sort of adventure is a good idea.
Good luck to him.