QuoteThe End of the Line for Cursive?
abcnews.com
The handwriting may be on the wall for cursive.
At least that's what some people fear as schools across the country continue to drop cursive handwriting from their curricula.
Forty-one states have so far adopted the new Common Core State Standards for English, which does not require cursive. Set by the Council of Chief State School Officers (CCSSO) and the National Governors Association (NGA), the standards provide a general framework for what students are expected to learn before college.
States are allowed the option of re-including cursive if they so choose, which is what Massachusetts and California have done.
But the latest to contemplate abandoning the script is Georgia, where teachers and administrators will meet in March to discuss erasing the longhand style from its lesson plans, says Georgia Department of Education spokesman Matt Cardoza.
The argument is that cursive is time-consuming and not as useful as the keyboard skills students will need as they move on to junior high and high school, he says.
As it happens, cursive is also not on the tests that rate schools under the No Child Left Behind law, and increasingly schools gear their curricula to excel at those tests, says Kathleen Wright, a national project manager for Zaner-Bloser, a publisher of education writing materials.
"It's just not being assessed. That's the biggie," she says. "If it's not assessed, it tends to fall by a little because people are teaching to the test."
So what's the big deal if your little John Hancock doesn't have a big loopy cursive signature of his own?
Antiquated or no, cursive is viewed by some parents and educators as essential to an education -- especially as text-happy teens become ever more thumb-centric.
"I've been disappointed in general with the public school system here," says Lisa Faircloth, a stay-at-home mother of two in Atlanta. She says she is pleased that her 7 year-old son Joe learned cursive.
"I feel like it has helped him with his fine motor skills and made him more graceful," she says. "He shows more of an interest in art because he is able to form things he hadn't before and has new muscle movements that he didn't know before."
The Neuroscience of Learning
Science backs her up. Increasingly the argument that students should be spending more time learning keyboard skills than cursive -- because that's the future! -- is beginning to look like a straw man.
"Of course it's important to know how to typewrite," says associate professor Anne Mangen at the University of Stavanger's Reading Centre. "But handwriting seems, based on empirical evidence from neuroscience, to play a larger role in the visual recognition and learning of letters.
"This is something one should be aware of in an educational context," she stresses.
In other words, those who learn to write by hand learn better.
Mangen points to an experiment involving two groups of adults in which participants were taught a new, foreign alphabet. One group learned the characters by hand, the other learned only to recognize them on a screen and with a keyboard.
Weeks after the experiment, the group that learned the letters by hand consistently scored better on recognition tests than those who learned with a keyboard. Brain scans of the hands-on group also showed greater activity in the part of the brain that controls language comprehension, motor-related processes and speech-associated gestures.
"Now we have studies that show for some important aspects of reading, digital technology may not be as important as handwriting," she says.
For this and other reasons, Kathleen Wright of Zaner-Bloser isn't quite prepared to type out cursive's obituary. Technology has been the bogey man before, after all.
"I personally don't see it going away," she says. "When the typewriter first came in, people asked ''is anyone going to write by hand any more?'
"And if you don't teach kids," she adds, "they won't have access to a lot of historical documents and primary source documents because they won't have learned cursive."
To which John Hancock might thave texted "OMG."
QuoteIs this the end of handwriting? Indiana schools to teach keyboard skills instead
As the old adage goes, the pen is mightier than the sword.
But it appears the once untouchable writing implement may have met its match in Indiana, after the Department of Education said it will no longer require public schools to teach cursive writing.
State officials sent school leaders a memo April 25 telling them that instead of cursive writing, students will be expected to become proficient in keyboard use.
The Times of Munster reports the memo says schools may continue to teach cursive as a local standard, or they may decide to stop teaching cursive altogether.
East Allen County Schools Superintendent Karyle Green said she didn't find the decision surprising.
'The skill of handwriting is a dying art,' she said. 'Everything isn't handwritten anymore.'
The district will still teach cursive, albeit in a limited form, according to curriculum director Marilyn Hissong.
From now on, second-graders will be taught cursive. But students will no longer be assessed on the handwriting style in third and fourth grade.
'We think it's still important for kids to be able to read cursive,' Hissong said.
'But after that, it begins to become obsolete.'
Andree Anderson of the Indiana University Northwest Urban Teacher Education Program says teachers haven't had the time to teach cursive writing for some time because it's not a top priority.
The education expert added students' handwriting was 'atrocious'.
I'm reminded of an episode of Blake's 7 when a character, being used as slave labour, is presented with a "graphite writing stick" and immediately points out that he has fingers which are "designed for pushing buttons".
I learned it, but aside from writing my signature I've only used it once since the fourth grade.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 07, 2011, 08:08:01 PM
I learned it, but aside from writing my signature I've only used it once since the fourth grade.
We all know you're not exactly a ringing endorsement of America's education system. No need to reinforce it. Retard.
Good. The sooner we abandon it, the better.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 08:16:27 PM
Good. The sooner we abandon it, the better.
Great, another troglodyte.
Alongside cursive i had to learn calligraphy. Who, in their daily lives, use either?
My cursive is nearly illegible at this point, except to me.
What are you going to do with cursive? Write someone a letter?
Cdm has crossed the inevitable line from hipster to codger :weep: :P
Quote from: HVC on July 07, 2011, 08:21:13 PM
Cdm has crossed the inevitable line from hipster to codger :weep: :P
What makes you think he was ever on the hipster side of the line? He's much too good of a person to have ever been a hipster.
Quote from: dps on July 07, 2011, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 07, 2011, 08:21:13 PM
Cdm has crossed the inevitable line from hipster to codger :weep: :P
What makes you think he was ever on the hipster side of the line? He's much too good of a person to have ever been a hipster.
ipicture him posting in a fedora. not sure if it's accurate, but that's how i see it lol.
That and impeccably manicured hands. but that because i know he gets manicures... which is off putting in its own right.
Learning how to write cursive is useless if you don't actually read it anywhere.
You seen alot of cursive on the internet CD?
Quote from: HVC on July 07, 2011, 08:21:13 PM
Cdm has crossed the inevitable line from hipster to codger :weep: :P
At the very least, apparently a bit more refined and cultured than most of these philistine monkey ass pounders.
Go ahead, you increasingly faceless automatons. Marginalize your individuality.
I think I see the problem - Seedy is so uninterestnig that writing archaically is all he has to make himself a unique and special flower?
I use cursive quite a lot, even today. Sometimes it is just more convenient to write a few words by hand, rather than amend the electronic copy then print it out. In HK, almost everybody uses cursive when writing English.
Seedy and the PRC - coming together on important issues since 1985.
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:16:23 PM
Seedy and the PRC - coming together on important issues since 1985.
I don't know the mainland practice. This could be unique to HK. Blame the British colonial officials.
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:10:47 PM
I think I see the problem - Seedy is so uninterestnig that writing archaically is all he has to make himself a unique and special flower?
One day, you're going to be found out on the street, stabbed in the chest with a Dupont through a manifesto on Almalfi paper. And I'm going to have an alibi.
Actually, this is something that bothered me a lot when I first arrived in Canada. Those who grow up in HK are taught that cursive is the only "adult" way to write English. But when I showed my cursive handwriting to non-Chinese Canadians, many couldn't read them. I thought that my English was too bad. Turns out that many of them don't use cursive at all.
In my schooling experience, the teachers taught us cursive to us in grade 4, and the narrow-minded fucks always yelled at me because my writing was messy. By the time we reached grade 6, we were told never to use it again in school.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
By the time we reached grade 6, we were told never to use it again in school.
Why? I think writing cursive is a bit faster.
I was never good at cursive. My handwriting is terrible and by high school I went back to childishly writing in block letter. Doing so made my writing marginally more readable.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
By the time we reached grade 6, we were told never to use it again in school.
Why? I think writing cursive is a bit faster.
Because teachers can read printing easier than cursive.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
By the time we reached grade 6, we were told never to use it again in school.
Why? I think writing cursive is a bit faster.
They told us it was too messy, and thus should be avoided on tests an assignments.
We were encouraged to use cursive. I didn't because my Manuel dexterity is laughably bad. There are people with cerebral palsy with steadier hands then me.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
By the time we reached grade 6, we were told never to use it again in school.
Why? I think writing cursive is a bit faster.
They told us it was too messy, and thus should be avoided on tests an assignments.
We were told that we *must* use cursive, for strategic reasons. Timing is one of the biggest challenges during exams. Those who can write faster have an advantage over those who don't. If you can write out the answers for 90 questions, you'll have a better chance than the guy who writes block letters and can only do 80 questions. Therefore, we must practise our cursive whenever possible.
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:10:47 PM
I think I see the problem - Seedy is so uninterestnig that writing archaically is all he has to make himself a unique and special flower?
His prose is so dull that he has to use pretty letters to keep people from passing out?
Quote from: Neil on July 07, 2011, 10:19:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 07, 2011, 09:10:47 PM
I think I see the problem - Seedy is so uninterestnig that writing archaically is all he has to make himself a unique and special flower?
His prose is so dull that he has to use pretty letters to keep people from passing out?
Pica font can do that quite nicely, thank you.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 10:16:22 PM
We were told that we *must* use cursive, for strategic reasons. Timing is one of the biggest challenges during exams. Those who can write faster have an advantage over those who don't. If you can write out the answers for 90 questions, you'll have a better chance than the guy who writes block letters and can only do 80 questions. Therefore, we must practise our cursive whenever possible.
Our education systems are very different though. Ours are designed to produce leaders and thinkers. Yours is designed to produce automatons to do what we tell you to do.
The aim of the Chinese/HK system is selection. There are various chokepoints along the way from grade 1 to university. Only a set number/percentage can pass each chokepoint. You don't pass by meeting certain standards. You pass by being better than your mates. Those who fail are disgarded.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 11:06:15 PM
The aim of the Chinese/HK system is selection. There are various chokepoints along the way from grade 1 to university. Only a set number/percentage can pass each chokepoint. You don't pass by meeting certain standards. You pass by being better than your mates. Those who fail are disgarded.
That's pointless. The goal should be for as many students as possible to do well.
As a teacher, I'm proud to say I don't teach to the tards.
Actually, Mono, block letterforms are only slower when writing both upper- and lowercase. In Law Office Management, we were taught to use print uppercase letters because it's the fastest of the three.
I do resort to cursive frequently, but it's because after having injured both of my hands so many times, it's the only way I can write at a decent speed- my handwriting now resembles a hybrid of cursive and teeline shorthand that's undecipherable to nearly everyone.
Quotethe argument that students should be spending more time learning keyboard skills than cursive -- because that's the future! -- is beginning to look like a straw man
:hmm:
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 11:29:42 PM
As a teacher, I'm proud to say I don't teach to the tards.
In Korea they mainstream special ed kids like a lot of place in the US do. This may make sense for some kids in some subjects, but for a foreign language it's just doesn't work.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 10:16:22 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 07, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 07, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
By the time we reached grade 6, we were told never to use it again in school.
Why? I think writing cursive is a bit faster.
They told us it was too messy, and thus should be avoided on tests an assignments.
We were told that we *must* use cursive, for strategic reasons. Timing is one of the biggest challenges during exams. Those who can write faster have an advantage over those who don't. If you can write out the answers for 90 questions, you'll have a better chance than the guy who writes block letters and can only do 80 questions. Therefore, we must practise our cursive whenever possible.
Here one would get smacked down if whoever was the test reviewer couldn't read the handwriting.
I remember in elementary school I would get A's in all the academic subjects and D's in handwriting. Good riddance.
Is nothing sacred? Next, the kids will stop learning how to use an abacus or wash their clothes with sand. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Razgovory on July 07, 2011, 10:03:30 PM
I was never good at cursive. My handwriting is terrible and by high school I went back to childishly writing in block letter. Doing so made my writing marginally more readable.
I thought cutting out words from newspapers and glueing them to a page would be more your style.
Quote from: Martinus on July 08, 2011, 01:51:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 07, 2011, 10:03:30 PM
I was never good at cursive. My handwriting is terrible and by high school I went back to childishly writing in block letter. Doing so made my writing marginally more readable.
I thought cutting out words from newspapers and glueing them to a page would be more your style.
That's very time consuming, besides the days of typewriters (and the ability of the police to connect a typed out message and a typewriter), long dead.
I not only use cursive, but write my notes with a fountain pen.
:cool:
L.
Cursive is fucking abomination. Always has been. It never should have been invented, let alone taught.
Cursive was great for what it was designed for. So was the buggy whip and the iron lung. All of them should be enshrined in a museum, somewhere.
I could never read cursive, even my own. Bear in mind that I can read Cyrillic* and Greek, so I'm pretty sure it's cursive's fault.
*Cyrillic cursive belongs in gulag.
Quote from: garbon on July 08, 2011, 01:05:11 AM
Here one would get smacked down if whoever was the test reviewer couldn't read the handwriting.
Still do. My son, Jeremy, nearly failed history and English. Not because he didn't understand the work, but because his teachers couldn't read his answers. It was finally decided that he be allowed to type his answers on all assignments.
Schools still use hand-written work a lot, so it seems odd that they're going to drop cursive. It's useful, easier to read when done well, and easier to do well than block letters (for me, anyway). So I guess I'm with Seedy.
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
So I guess I'm with Seedy.
At least someone else here has a little taste. <_<
Quote from: HVC on July 07, 2011, 08:30:35 PM
ipicture him posting in a fedora. not sure if it's accurate, but that's how i see it lol.
That and impeccably manicured hands. but that because i know he gets manicures... which is off putting in its own right.
Seedy is Truman Capote. :lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2011, 06:45:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
So I guess I'm with Seedy.
At least someone else here has a little taste. <_<
You should do an experiment. Everything you write, write it in cursive. All memos, emails, etc. See how long it takes until someone tells you it isn't the 18th century anymore.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2011, 06:45:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
So I guess I'm with Seedy.
At least someone else here has a little taste. <_<
Hey, I thought it was clear from my post that I was with you too.
People write faster using cursive; I shudder to think how I would have managed to write four essays in three hours for History exams without it.
When I was at school, 'joined-up writing' was regarded as the correct way; printing your letters was seen as immature. As mono has mentioned I found cursive the fastest way to get down all you wanted to say in an exam.
I hardly write anything nowadays and if I do, it's an abomination of printed and occasional cursive scrawl. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Ideologue on July 08, 2011, 06:11:46 AM
I could never read cursive, even my own. Bear in mind that I can read Cyrillic* and Greek, so I'm pretty sure it's cursive's fault.
*Cyrillic cursive belongs in gulag.
I am quite sure who's fault it is that you cannot read.
Kids these days.
*shakes head*
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
easier to read when done well,
Go take a look at the nearest book to hand. Is it printed in cursive, or block letters? If in block letters, do you think books eschew cursive in spite of the fact that it is "easier to read?"
Cursive is faster to write but harder to read. Typing is faster and easier than either. Typing wins.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:32:11 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
easier to read when done well,
Go take a look at the nearest book to hand. Is it printed in cursive, or block letters? If in block letters, do you think books eschew cursive in spite of the fact that it is "easier to read?"
Cursive is faster to write but harder to read. Typing is faster and easier than either. Typing wins.
Sorry. I should have specified. Cursive is easier for me to read, as in I prefer it, and it's easier on the eye - FOR ME.
Given that school assignments cannot all be done via typing, it doesn't make sense to not teach cursive. As you said, it's faster to write. And - again, FOR ME - prettier to read when done right.
Interesting thread. I never thought about cursive one way or the other. Kind of figured it was here to stay, not something to phase out. I use it all the time, though usually mixed with block letters. But I can see the point - it's often a pain to read, often unreadable in signatures. So, if cursive is phased out will people sign documents with block letters? At least that would make sigs readable!
Signatures often look barely like cursive anyway.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 07:26:22 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 08, 2011, 06:11:46 AM
I could never read cursive, even my own. Bear in mind that I can read Cyrillic* and Greek, so I'm pretty sure it's cursive's fault.
*Cyrillic cursive belongs in gulag.
I am quite sure who's fault it is that you cannot read.
How droll. :rolleyes:
Cursive is faster to write? I can print in block a lot faster than I can write in cursive, especially if that cursive is to be legible by anyone other than me.
Quote from: Neil on July 08, 2011, 10:29:47 AM
Cursive is faster to write? I can print in block a lot faster than I can write in cursive, especially if that cursive is to be legible by anyone other than me.
Indeed. I went back to block when I was 18 and never looked back.
I would like to point out that I have never seen CdM's cursive, yet he seems unique enough.
Quote from: Maximus on July 08, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: Neil on July 08, 2011, 10:29:47 AM
Cursive is faster to write? I can print in block a lot faster than I can write in cursive, especially if that cursive is to be legible by anyone other than me.
Indeed. I went back to block when I was 18 and never looked back.
I would like to point out that I have never seen CdM's cursive, yet he seems unique enough.
Uh oh, you're wife is going to take you out back and beat you... and not in the good way :D
Quote from: Neil on July 08, 2011, 10:29:47 AM
Cursive is faster to write? I can print in block a lot faster than I can write in cursive, especially if that cursive is to be legible by anyone other than me.
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
Law is still seriously paper-bound, and I use cursive constantly. I can't imagine using block letters. Now my writing isn't very good, but at least its fast and mostly legible.
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
I haven't used cursive since I was forced to learn it back in 3rd & 4th grade. Even by the time I got to middle school, my notes & writing assignments were in block letters....for speed and for legibility....and that was more than 25 years ago now.
I'm not even sure if my kids were taught cursive to be honest, and the youngest is already in middle school now.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
Yes.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
I guess a lot of Americans dont write in cursive. I am as surprised as you and BB.
Quote from: Maximus on July 08, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: Neil on July 08, 2011, 10:29:47 AM
Cursive is faster to write? I can print in block a lot faster than I can write in cursive, especially if that cursive is to be legible by anyone other than me.
Indeed. I went back to block when I was 18 and never looked back.
I would like to point out that I have never seen CdM's cursive, yet he seems unique enough.
Glad to see there's more non cursive people out there.
Block here
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
I guess a lot of Americans dont write in cursive. I am as surprised as you and BB.
Except Neil and Max aren't Americans.
This is starting to feel like a "divided by a common language issue", given the general trend seems to be USA = Block, Commonwealth (and ex-Commmonwealth) = Cursive.
I used to write entirely in cursive. From ~3rd grade until my sophomore year in high school, I used nothing but. Then I switched to block and never reverted, save for my signature. I still recall how to write in it, though...
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
Quote from: Neil on July 08, 2011, 10:29:47 AM
Cursive is faster to write? I can print in block a lot faster than I can write in cursive, especially if that cursive is to be legible by anyone other than me.
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
Law is still seriously paper-bound, and I use cursive constantly. I can't imagine using block letters. Now my writing isn't very good, but at least its fast and mostly legible.
It's pretty simple, really. Most of the written things I encounter are written in block, although given you and CC, perhaps it might be a lawyer thing. Just to make you guys a little more cultish.
As for Grey Fox, he's mostly illiterate anyways, so probably doesn't have the chance to write very often. 'Keske' my ass.
Qu'est-ce?
It's funny, I've never written "Keske", I've typed it often but if I'm writing I'll write it properly.
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:37:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
I guess a lot of Americans dont write in cursive. I am as surprised as you and BB.
Except Neil and Max aren't Americans.
harumph!
The only people i see regularly writing in cursive are docters, but no one can read their writing anyway.
I use proper cursive pretty often, and pseudo-cursive is my default.
One summer in high school I decided that my printed handwriting looked too childish, so I consciously trained myself to use cursive. I wrote tests and essays with it during high school, and nobody complained about the legibility, even though I used to have atrocious handwriting as a kid.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:42:48 AM
Qu'est-ce?
It's funny, I've never written "Keske", I've typed it often but if I'm writing I'll write it properly.
And yet it's become an integral part of your Languish personna, as much as moving back to Quebec because you missed your dad's Wii, being angry about getting mixed up with Gen. Wolfe and being the last native Languishite.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
And there is no one you know of who eschews cursive? I am astonished. I have known non-cursive-users in every country I have lived in or visited for any length of time.
I am not so surprised that Canadians use cursive. I am surprised that they didn't even realize that there are people who don't.
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:37:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 11:16:44 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Barrister on July 08, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
:blink:
Seriously? There are people who never write in cursive?
:blink:
Seriously? You are just now finding this out?
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
I guess a lot of Americans dont write in cursive. I am as surprised as you and BB.
Except Neil and Max aren't Americans.
Neil is always the exception. You have to remember he is more Texan then anything and Max is the exception that proves the rule in this case.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on July 08, 2011, 12:07:48 PM
I use proper cursive pretty often, and pseudo-cursive is my default.
One summer in high school I decided that my printed handwriting looked too childish, so I consciously trained myself to use cursive. I wrote tests and essays with it during high school, and nobody complained about the legibility, even though I used to have atrocious handwriting as a kid.
Cursive does require a lot of practice, but is perfectly legible given that practice. Bad cursive is much worse than bad block letters, though. As a teacher I have seen plenty of both.
Quote from: Neil on July 08, 2011, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:42:48 AM
Qu'est-ce?
It's funny, I've never written "Keske", I've typed it often but if I'm writing I'll write it properly.
And yet it's become an integral part of your Languish personna, as much as moving back to Quebec because you missed your dad's Wii, being angry about getting mixed up with Gen. Wolfe and being the last native Languishite.
:lol:
Fighting it at every turn is also part of the personna.
Am I really the last?
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 01:16:39 PM
I am not so surprised that Canadians use cursive. I am surprised that they didn't even realize that there are people who don't.
I am not surprised that you are not suprised that we are surprised but I am surprised by the reason you give for not being surprised that we are surprised.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 01:16:39 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
Must be cultural. I might hate cursive but my hand writing in an hybrid mess of cursive & block. I could never write only in Block.
And there is no one you know of who eschews cursive? I am astonished. I have known non-cursive-users in every country I have lived in or visited for any length of time.
I am not so surprised that Canadians use cursive. I am surprised that they didn't even realize that there are people who don't.
Adults? Not really, not anyone I can recall. I'll have to investigate.
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
Also, I don't know if they still require cursive in Quebec schools after grade 2. I'll have to investigate that too.
Sometimes, even us are a bunch of provincials, it's not the exclusive domain of Tyr.
Every time I see this thread I expect it to be about the Atlanta public school cheating scandal.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:23:19 PM
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
is that even legal?
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:23:19 PM
Adults? Not really, not anyone I can recall. I'll have to investigate.
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
Also, I don't know if they still require cursive in Quebec schools after grade 2. I'll have to investigate that too.
Sometimes, even us are a bunch of provincials, it's not the exclusive domain of Tyr.
Nothing provincial about it,
per se. It would be natural that you would assume other people are like you, unless they demonstrate that they are different. I am just surprised that I knew more about Canadian use of block letters for writing than BB and you did. That says nothing more than it says about either you guys or me.
Quote from: HVC on July 08, 2011, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:23:19 PM
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
is that even legal?
Don't think so, no. She probably regrets it deeply too. She's 25 now & still miling on her high school diploma.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:33:25 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 08, 2011, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:23:19 PM
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
is that even legal?
Don't think so, no. She probably regrets it deeply too. She's 25 now & still miling on her high school diploma.
is she hot at least? the could go a long way :lol:
Quote from: HVC on July 08, 2011, 01:34:41 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:33:25 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 08, 2011, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:23:19 PM
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
is that even legal?
Don't think so, no. She probably regrets it deeply too. She's 25 now & still miling on her high school diploma.
is she hot at least? the could go a long way :lol:
Yes. Well she was, I haven't seen her in a couple of years too. I'm a bad brother.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:35:47 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 08, 2011, 01:34:41 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:33:25 PM
Quote from: HVC on July 08, 2011, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:23:19 PM
Maybe my sister, I haven't seen her handwriting in years. However she left school in grade 8.
is that even legal?
Don't think so, no. She probably regrets it deeply too. She's 25 now & still miling on her high school diploma.
is she hot at least? the could go a long way :lol:
Yes.
well then she's golden :p
QuoteWell she was, I haven't seen her in a couple of years too. I'm a bad brother.
for shame!
We are not close.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2011, 01:42:04 PM
We are not close.
i'm an only child so sibling dynamics are lost on me. Still if i'm ever in quebec i'd appreciate being introduced to your hot (theoritically so) sister :D
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 11:16:44 AM
I guess a lot of Americans on this list dont write in cursive. I am as surprised as you and BB.
FYP
Most people I know still write in cursive. To be fair, most people I know are in education or are secretaries, which may have a larger need to hand-write things than the average population. In addition, in my experience, it seems that men tend away from writing cursive while women tend toward it.
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 11:16:44 AM
I guess a lot of Americans on this list dont write in cursive. I am as surprised as you and BB.
FYP
Most people I know still write in cursive. To be fair, most people I know are in education or are secretaries, which may have a larger need to hand-write things than the average population. In addition, in my experience, it seems that men tend away from writing cursive while women tend toward it.
Sorry, according to Grumbler you dont exist. Niether do the people you know.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 01:50:58 PM
Sorry, according to Grumbler you dont exist. Niether do the people you know.
:(
But I did this morning. I wonder what happened. :unsure:
I also had no idea that it is common for people to write in block letters, and not in cursive. Sure, you write in block letters when you fill out some applications, but regularly? :huh: How is that even practical, isn't it way too slow? :huh: I don't know of anyone like that. Then again, maybe the people who write in block letters are also the kind of people that don't hand write much of anything, so I have no opportunity to see what style they use when writing.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 08, 2011, 01:50:58 PM
Sorry, according to Grumbler you dont exist. Niether do the people you know.
:lol: Strawman much?
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 02:14:31 PM
I also had no idea that it is common for people to write in block letters, and not in cursive. Sure, you write in block letters when you fill out some applications, but regularly? :huh: How is that even practical, isn't it way too slow? :huh: I don't know of anyone like that. Then again, maybe the people who write in block letters are also the kind of people that don't hand write much of anything, so I have no opportunity to see what style they use when writing.
I'd say that 2/3 of the students in my classes use only block letters, and more than half the notes I get from other teachers are in block letters. It is quite practical and isn't at all slow (though almost certainly slower than cursive if you are fluent in cursive). Most of the people I know who write a lot (like the authors of the books I edit) type, so your suspicion about the block-letter writers not writing much by hand may well be accurate. I certainly don't write much by hand anymore. Computers are just too ubiquitous fro it to be necessary, and I think school (and homework) time could be better spent on things other than handwriting practice.
That said, I don't know what my own school's policy is on handwriting practice in the lower grades. It has never come up in my presence.
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 01:52:53 PM
But I did this morning. I wonder what happened. :unsure:
No you didn't. The balefire erased it.
I've been anti-cursive since I first had to learn it. I write quite clearly and well in both cursive and block, but it always seemed a waste of time. Instead of using up the teaching time with such an archaic practice, why not spent those moments teaching a foreign language at an earlier age? Where I went to school, we started cursive in 4th grade and foreign languages in 7th. It's been proven that the younger you are when starting a language, the easier it is to learn. That's 3 prime learning years wasted right there. Especially when you never have need of cursive again, unless you choose to make use of it. We had to use cursive exclusively inj 4th and 5th grades when writing, yet once we reached 6th it was an option, with print preferred as it was more likely to be legible. I have never seen a form that says please use cursive here, only please print here. Teach enough to sign one's name. That's all you ever need it for. Even with that, people's signatures very rarely look anything like legible language.
Geez, this is going to sound terrible, but I tend to switch between cursive and block depending on whom what I'm writing is intended for. If I'm writing something that's intended mostly for supervisory or managerial personell, I'll use cursive; if it's something that's intended mostly for non-managers (or managers and non-managers equally), I'll use block. Unless it's something really important, and going to one of the dumber or more irresponsible managers--then it's written in block letters 4-6 inches tall, and in red magic marker.
Seperate writing systems for the Betas and the Gammas. :hmm:
Same topic started over here. The state of Hamburg leaves it to each school to decide if they teach cursive writing or only block letters.
My handwriting is a mix of block and cursive and it looks really messy, the handwriting of my older daughter who just learned to write cursive in school looks even worse. Still I don't think it should be abandoned, if only to build up fine motor skills.
I find cursive better and easier to use than block when I am taking notes when discussing assignments or projects at work. While typing may be faster than cursive, obviously I can't just lug my computer everywhere I go.
Quote from: syk on July 08, 2011, 08:33:51 PM
Still I don't think it should be abandoned, if only to build up fine motor skills.
I wonder if keyboarding doesn't develop those same skills to more use, though.
I am not saying it is true, just noting the possibility.
Probably not the same skill. Cursive would develop dexterity, I would think. I'm not sure what motor skill typing develops, but it's probably not dexterity.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: syk on July 08, 2011, 08:33:51 PM
Still I don't think it should be abandoned, if only to build up fine motor skills.
I wonder if keyboarding doesn't develop those same skills to more use, though.
I am not saying it is true, just noting the possibility.
Could be, depending on the task. I was thinking of using a scalpel as I cut a lot of stencils. Maybe typing helps with things like playing piano.
Quote from: Agelastus on July 08, 2011, 07:14:21 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 08, 2011, 06:45:47 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 08, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
So I guess I'm with Seedy.
At least someone else here has a little taste. <_<
Hey, I thought it was clear from my post that I was with you too.
You're English. I
expected you guys to be pro-cursive.
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 09:35:28 PM
Probably not the same skill. Cursive would develop dexterity, I would think. I'm not sure what motor skill typing develops, but it's probably not dexterity.
From my experience teaching fine motor skills and keyboarding, I am not so sure. Keyboarding requires dexterity, for sure. Not necessarily the same dexterity as penmanship (I think of it as more "digital" than the "analog" of penmanship), but I certainly don't think we should base our conclusions on some innate belief that others should do well what we do well. In teaching, it is always a temptation to teach to the past of the educator, not the future of the student. Teaching cursive has that vibe to me.
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 10:00:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 09:35:28 PM
Probably not the same skill. Cursive would develop dexterity, I would think. I'm not sure what motor skill typing develops, but it's probably not dexterity.
From my experience teaching fine motor skills and keyboarding, I am not so sure. Keyboarding requires dexterity, for sure. Not necessarily the same dexterity as penmanship (I think of it as more "digital" than the "analog" of penmanship), but I certainly don't think we should base our conclusions on some innate belief that others should do well what we do well. In teaching, it is always a temptation to teach to the past of the educator, not the future of the student. Teaching cursive has that vibe to me.
You can probably compare the issue of cursive with the issue of calculators in math. It really is a waste to keep hammering manual computation as if calculators weren't invented, since you can learn so much more math when calculator is an integral tool. At the same time, there still has to be a basic proficiency with doing math on your own, and that can never be completely replaced by technology.
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 10:00:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 09:35:28 PM
Probably not the same skill. Cursive would develop dexterity, I would think. I'm not sure what motor skill typing develops, but it's probably not dexterity.
From my experience teaching fine motor skills and keyboarding, I am not so sure. Keyboarding requires dexterity, for sure. Not necessarily the same dexterity as penmanship (I think of it as more "digital" than the "analog" of penmanship), but I certainly don't think we should base our conclusions on some innate belief that others should do well what we do well. In teaching, it is always a temptation to teach to the past of the educator, not the future of the student. Teaching cursive has that vibe to me.
You can probably compare the issue of cursive with the issue of calculators in math. It really is a waste to keep hammering manual computation as if calculators weren't invented, since you can learn so much more math when calculator is an integral tool. At the same time, there still has to be a basic proficiency with doing math on your own, and that can never be completely replaced by technology.
But you don't really need cursive as you can rely on block letters.
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 08, 2011, 10:00:14 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 09:35:28 PM
Probably not the same skill. Cursive would develop dexterity, I would think. I'm not sure what motor skill typing develops, but it's probably not dexterity.
From my experience teaching fine motor skills and keyboarding, I am not so sure. Keyboarding requires dexterity, for sure. Not necessarily the same dexterity as penmanship (I think of it as more "digital" than the "analog" of penmanship), but I certainly don't think we should base our conclusions on some innate belief that others should do well what we do well. In teaching, it is always a temptation to teach to the past of the educator, not the future of the student. Teaching cursive has that vibe to me.
You can probably compare the issue of cursive with the issue of calculators in math. It really is a waste to keep hammering manual computation as if calculators weren't invented, since you can learn so much more math when calculator is an integral tool. At the same time, there still has to be a basic proficiency with doing math on your own, and that can never be completely replaced by technology.
I don't think they compare at all though.
Someone who cannot do the basic computations needed for math cannot succeed at math. Someone who never once writes a thing in cursive will be limited in nothing at all.
It is a dead skill, like teaching Latin. It is done for nostalgia's sake, and nothing else.
Even if one wanted to teach "manual dexterity" (whatever that means) I bet you could accomplish that ten times as well in the same amount of time if you just went and created a program to teach it specifically, rather than teaching cursive with the hope that maybe people will pick up "manual dexterity" along the way.
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 11:58:03 PM
It is a dead skill, like teaching Latin. It is done for nostalgia's sake, and nothing else.
Learning to read Latin is useful for historians, as is cursive.
Russian handwriting is mostly in their form of cursive, and learning it totally fucked up my English cursive.
My credit card signature is pretty much just a memorized, mechanical art form at this point.
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 10:24:58 PM
You can probably compare the issue of cursive with the issue of calculators in math. It really is a waste to keep hammering manual computation as if calculators weren't invented, since you can learn so much more math when calculator is an integral tool. At the same time, there still has to be a basic proficiency with doing math on your own, and that can never be completely replaced by technology.
This may seem like a good comparison if you don't know anything about learning, but is incorrect. Google "chunking" and I think you will understand why the difference exists.
Quote from: Berkut on July 08, 2011, 11:58:03 PM
Someone who cannot do the basic computations needed for math cannot succeed at math. Someone who never once writes a thing in cursive will be limited in nothing at all.
It is a dead skill, like teaching Latin. It is done for nostalgia's sake, and nothing else.
I am not convinced that this is true. Further, teaching Latin is actually extremely useful for students who want to succeed in things like the SAT; Latin tells you where the language comes from, and allows one to successfully guess at word meanings one is encountering for the first time. That may be a fault of the SATs, but it still is a fact.
QuoteEven if one wanted to teach "manual dexterity" (whatever that means) I bet you could accomplish that ten times as well in the same amount of time if you just went and created a program to teach it specifically, rather than teaching cursive with the hope that maybe people will pick up "manual dexterity" along the way.
I think this is true.
Quote from: grumbler on July 09, 2011, 01:20:12 AM
Quote from: DGuller on July 08, 2011, 10:24:58 PM
You can probably compare the issue of cursive with the issue of calculators in math. It really is a waste to keep hammering manual computation as if calculators weren't invented, since you can learn so much more math when calculator is an integral tool. At the same time, there still has to be a basic proficiency with doing math on your own, and that can never be completely replaced by technology.
This may seem like a good comparison if you don't know anything about learning, but is incorrect. Google "chunking" and I think you will understand why the difference exists.
Well, you'd be wrong, I do not understand why the different exists. I did Google chunking, but I don't see how that applies to anything here. Perhaps you can point me in a direction?