Aparring!
QuoteCulture clash complicates China's Brazil push
By BRADLEY BROOKS, Associated Press
SAO PAULO – Stocking shelves in a Chinese grocery store, Thiago warned that he didn't want to be caught chatting during working hours. Within seconds, however, the Brazilian unleashed a pent-up flood of complaints about the owners, who lingered just beyond hearing distance.
"My bosses have never heard of a day off," said the 20-year-old, who would only allow his first name to be used, for fear of losing his job. "Vacations? Forget it. They pay well and they pay for extra hours, but they don't understand that some things are more important to Brazilians than money.
"I've seen many workers walk in, see the Chinese way of doing things, and quit the very same day."
Such cross-cultural tensions have become a stumbling block in an otherwise meteoric rise in business ties between China and Brazil, two of the world's fastest-growing economies.
Chinese companies' direct investment in Brazil jumped to $17 billion last year, nearly 60 times the investment the previous year, according to SOBEET, a Brazilian economic think tank. At the same time, more Chinese companies are hiring local workers rather than following their old practices of bringing in Chinese laborers.
That new reality has meant frequent contact between two cultures that hold vastly different expectations about the role of workers, government regulations and unions.
Brazilians enjoy some of the most labor-friendly protections in the world, with guarantees such as one-month annual bonuses and stipends for meals and transportation.
China, on the other hand, has quickly become the world's second-biggest economy on the strength of a low-paid work force and, in practice, virtually nonexistent labor protections, according to the U.S.-based nonprofit Global Institute for Labor & Human Rights. Brazil's strong independent labor movement also clashes with a centralized Chinese system of company unions without collective bargaining power.
"You're looking at a whole different model of how society operates," said Charles Kernaghan, the institute's director. "That means no rights to organize, virtually no labor protections."
Chinese companies are attempting to export that model and, at least in Brazil, have been finding it difficult to retain workers, even in management positions.
A survey of 500 Brazilian executives working for Chinese, North American and European companies recently conducted by the Michael Page International recruitment firm for the newspaper Folha de S. Paulo found that 42 percent of Brazilian executives working for Chinese companies left their jobs within a year, a 68 percent higher turnover rate than found in the other firms studied.
Brazilian workers complain that their Chinese employers don't understand the country's culture of developing personal relationships among co-workers. Brazilians also bristle against a centralized office hierarchy that puts little trust in local executives.
"The cultural misunderstandings are going to frustrate the development of Chinese business in Brazil," said Marcelo de Lucca, director of Michael Page's Brazil operations. "Multinational companies, when they arrive in Brazil or any country, have to adapt to the local culture. But the Chinese, with their old culture, being a country ruled by a strong Communist party with extreme levels of hierarchy, for them this process will take longer."
Global accounting firm KPMG, whose specialists help Chinese companies get started in Brazil, say about 30 of China's big state-run companies with annual revenues above $1 billion are now in the country, more than three times the number five years ago.
China and Brazil's bilateral trade surpassed $56 billion last year, up from $2.3 billion a decade earlier. In 2009, China replaced the U.S. as Brazil's biggest trading partner.
Brazil isn't China's first foray into Latin America — Chinese companies have a strong presence across the region, from mining operations in Argentina to manufacturing in Mexico. China has bilateral trade agreements with Peru, Costa Rica and Chile.
Zhang Jianhua, chief of the Bank of China's operations in Sao Paulo, said Chinese companies have been enticed by Brazil's wealth of iron ore, soy, oil and other natural resources, and many companies are finding it more cost-effective to move closer to the commodities. Chinese companies also see Brazil's booming middle class as a lucrative market.
Chinese companies' experience elsewhere in Latin America, however, hasn't helped them avoid problems in Brazil.
A former top executive for Chinese computer maker Lenovo said most Brazilians at the company's local offices were frustrated by demands to come up with almost immediate results in a country with some of the world's worst red tape. Even seemingly mundane tasks, such as getting a phone line or renting an apartment, can require trips to the notary and stacks of paperwork.
Brazilian workers also balked at what they saw as their Chinese superiors' suffocating management style, said the executive, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of putting in jeopardy the jobs of other Brazilians at Lenovo.
"It was not the quantity of work — we're all chained to our Blackberry, working 24 hours a day, seven days a week," she said. "But the Chinese bosses wanted people physically in the office 100 percent of the time so they could control them.
"That's definitely not how deals are closed in Brazil. It's over dinner, at lunch, having a drink. You cannot keep your work force locked up in an office and expect to make headway in Brazil."
The executive added that Chinese bosses would often create ill will by upbraiding Brazilian project managers in front of their staff.
"They thought the workers would do more if the orders were coming from the big boss, but that's not what Brazilian workers think — it's just the opposite," she said. "They lost motivation because they thought their manager had no respect within the company, to the point that he was being dressed down in front of them. I saw that a lot."
Calls to Lenovo were not returned.
Asian executives have had their own complaints about what they've seen as the lax work ethic of Brazilian employees, but are up against laws that require all foreign companies in Brazil to hire locally.
Charles Tang, who founded the Brazil-China chamber of trade and industry 25 years ago, vividly recalls the difficulties he encountered when the Bank of Boston first sent him to Brazil in the mid-1970s. He was particularly frustrated with what he said was some Brazilians' lack of punctuality.
"I banged my head against the wall for a year or so before I really got into Brazilian culture," he said.
Tang said he soon learned the Brazilian way — essentially to relax, realize nobody is going to arrive at a meeting on time and understand that informality doesn't necessarily equate with a lack of professionalism. He realized that the differences in style ultimately didn't affect the bottom line.
In fact, data from the U.S.-based business group The Conference Board show Brazilian workers were 30 percent more productive last year than their Chinese counterparts. Chinese worker productivity, however, grew at more than twice the annual rate than that of Brazilian workers.
In the past, Chinese firms circumvented such complications by importing thousands of their own workers, a practice Brazilian officials don't tolerate, said Antonio Barros de Castro, a former president of Brazil's state development bank who has closely studied China's rise.
"They know that here they have to work mostly with Brazilian laborers, the government has made that clear," Barros said. "In places like Africa, they resolved work force problems by ignoring the problem, by working with Chinese workers."
Despite efforts to build better working relationships between the two countries, distrust was still rife on a recent afternoon in the Liberdade neighborhood of central Sao Paulo.
Celio Lin, 29, sat by the cash register of his family's busy Chinese restaurant complaining about the Brazilian staff, while his mother checked on the line cooks by tugging on their coats and attentively peeking into pots of soup and noodles.
"Brazilians want vacations for I-don't-know-what, they want a day off for I-don't-know-what, they want to go to the beach, to relax," Lin said. "The beach is obviously pleasant, but if you send a Chinese man to the beach, he'll go there to sell something!"
lol asians.
lol lazy mud people.
Even the chinks are preferable.
Quote from: Slargos on May 28, 2011, 02:07:02 PM
lol lazy mud people.
Even the chinks are preferable.
Yeah I don't know why people would want a vacation or go to the beach except to sell something.
Quote from: garbon on May 28, 2011, 02:10:43 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 28, 2011, 02:07:02 PM
lol lazy mud people.
Even the chinks are preferable.
Yeah I don't know why people would want a vacation or go to the beach except to sell something.
Yeah you should totally get 10 days off for Kwanzaa.
I didn't know Slargos was a Commie.
Quote from: Slargos on May 28, 2011, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 28, 2011, 02:10:43 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 28, 2011, 02:07:02 PM
lol lazy mud people.
Even the chinks are preferable.
Yeah I don't know why people would want a vacation or go to the beach except to sell something.
Yeah you should totally get 10 days off for Kwanzaa.
I'm an American. We barely get any days off. :contract:
Quote from: garbon on May 28, 2011, 02:54:34 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 28, 2011, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 28, 2011, 02:10:43 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 28, 2011, 02:07:02 PM
lol lazy mud people.
Even the chinks are preferable.
Yeah I don't know why people would want a vacation or go to the beach except to sell something.
Yeah you should totally get 10 days off for Kwanzaa.
I'm an American. We barely get any days off. :contract:
As is the only fucking way to maintain prosperity.
I'd be terrified of a race to the bottom against the PRC and their hordes of slave labor, but ultimately their own internal contradictions will tear them apart. And then the United States, Europe and Japan will pick up the pieces--hopefully pieces like Hong Kong, Tsingtao, Macau, and Dalian. :hmm:
Quote from: Ideologue on May 28, 2011, 03:44:07 PM
I'd be terrified of a race to the bottom against the PRC and their hordes of slave labor, but ultimately their own internal contradictions will tear them apart. And then the United States, Europe and Japan will pick up the pieces--hopefully pieces like Hong Kong, Tsingtao, Macau, and Dalian. :hmm:
Didn't the communists use to say that about us?
QuoteBrazilians enjoy some of the most labor-friendly protections in the world, with guarantees such as one-month annual bonuses and stipends for meals and transportation.
LOLZ, Commies.
QuoteChina, on the other hand, has quickly become the world's second-biggest economy on the strength of a low-paid work force and, in practice, virtually nonexistent labor protections...
a centralized Chinese system of company unions without collective bargaining power.
LOLZ, Republicans.
A lot of the descriptions in the article seem suspiciously familiar :ph34r:
Quote from: Razgovory on May 28, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on May 28, 2011, 03:44:07 PM
I'd be terrified of a race to the bottom against the PRC and their hordes of slave labor, but ultimately their own internal contradictions will tear them apart. And then the United States, Europe and Japan will pick up the pieces--hopefully pieces like Hong Kong, Tsingtao, Macau, and Dalian. :hmm:
Didn't the communists use to say that about us?
We could both be right.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 28, 2011, 01:59:19 PM
lol asians.
Koreans love the beach, Korea just doesn't have many good ones.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 28, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 28, 2011, 01:59:19 PM
lol asians.
Koreans love the beach, Korea just doesn't have many good ones.
I get the impression that Koreans are probably a little more laid back than Chinese.
I love the Chinese complaining about bureaucracy, red tape and state control. :lmfao:
Fucking chinks, get back to your rice holes.
Wow does China sound awful. Hope I never have to work for them.
Thank god the fanciful depictions of a future world dominated by China are likely nonsense.
I would never work for a Chinese employer. :bowler:
Quote from: Tyr on May 29, 2011, 05:57:53 AM
Wow does China sound awful. Hope I never have to work for them.
Thank god the fanciful depictions of a future world dominated by China are likely nonsense.
I find it incredibly amusing how the Republican Party, traditional Bulwark Against Communism(tm) for decades, is increasingly adopting their practices.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 29, 2011, 07:05:29 AM
I would never work for a Chinese employer. :bowler:
You say that now, but wait until they herp Eulope out of its clisis with loans.
If I can avoid it in the very belly of the beast, I should be able to avoid it most anywhere. :hmm:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 29, 2011, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 29, 2011, 05:57:53 AM
Wow does China sound awful. Hope I never have to work for them.
Thank god the fanciful depictions of a future world dominated by China are likely nonsense.
I find it incredibly amusing how the Republican Party, traditional Bulwark Against Communism(tm) for decades, is increasingly adopting their practices.
It's not that contradictory at all. China is much more fascist than communist now.
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
It's not that contradictory at all. China is much more fascist than communist now.
It's all shades of socialism. ;)
Quote from: Ideologue on May 28, 2011, 03:44:07 PM
I'd be terrified of a race to the bottom against the PRC and their hordes of slave labor, but ultimately their own internal contradictions will tear them apart. And then the United States, Europe and Japan will pick up the pieces--hopefully pieces like Hong Kong, Tsingtao, Macau, and Dalian. :hmm:
Back in 2000, back in Paradox, Malthus promissed me that China was to collapse within 2 years because of all the same things you said.
I'm still waiting.
Quote from: Siege on May 30, 2011, 12:15:33 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on May 28, 2011, 03:44:07 PM
I'd be terrified of a race to the bottom against the PRC and their hordes of slave labor, but ultimately their own internal contradictions will tear them apart. And then the United States, Europe and Japan will pick up the pieces--hopefully pieces like Hong Kong, Tsingtao, Macau, and Dalian. :hmm:
Back in 2000, back in Paradox, Malthus promissed me that China was to collapse within 2 years because of all the same things you said.
I'm still waiting.
If China collapses who will you be selling the US state secrets to, though? :hmm:
I don't think China will come anywhere close to dominating the world. That's not desirable, not practical, and frankly meaningless. The real risk to you guys, is China engaging in a race to the bottom in terms of labour and environmental practices, dragging everybody else down :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 01:10:12 AM
I don't think China will come anywhere close to dominating the world. That's not desirable, not practical, and frankly meaningless. The real risk to you guys, is China engaging in a race to the bottom in terms of labour and environmental practices, dragging everybody else down :contract:
i hope the Chinese policymakers aren't that stupid. And if they are they might as well kill all chinese now and be done with it.
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 29, 2011, 02:46:05 AMI get the impression that Koreans are probably a little more laid back than Chinese.
What do you base that on?
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 01:10:12 AM
I don't think China will come anywhere close to dominating the world. That's not desirable, not practical, and frankly meaningless. The real risk to you guys, is China engaging in a race to the bottom in terms of labour and environmental practices, dragging everybody else down :contract:
I don't think it will happen, to be honest. Already you seem to have a growing middle class, even in the mainland. The only question is whether the Chinese leadership will be smart enough to spot these trends, or will try to resist them, thus dragging China into a turmoil.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 01:10:12 AM
I don't think China will come anywhere close to dominating the world. That's not desirable, not practical, and frankly meaningless. The real risk to you guys, is China engaging in a race to the bottom in terms of labour and environmental practices, dragging everybody else down :contract:
The pact that the Communist party has struck with the people is no political freedom in exchange for growing incomes.
Chinese do not want change. Last time they got rid of the regime they got decades of civil war followed by a Communist takeover. No one wants that.
Quote from: Jacob on May 30, 2011, 01:27:44 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 29, 2011, 02:46:05 AMI get the impression that Koreans are probably a little more laid back than Chinese.
What do you base that on?
Mass media. So really, not much. :P
But then, I figure if you're a mostly free society and not a communist society, you gotta be at least a little more laid back.
My impression is that Chinese, Japanese and (South) Koreans all work very long hours.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 05:11:48 AM
My impression is that Chinese, Japanese and (South) Koreans all work very long hours.
Koreans work tons of hours, but from my friend who worked in both says that the Japanese somehow managed to work more (and were much more productive).
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 01:10:12 AM
I don't think China will come anywhere close to dominating the world. That's not desirable, not practical, and frankly meaningless. The real risk to you guys, is China engaging in a race to the bottom in terms of labour and environmental practices, dragging everybody else down :contract:
Why? They won't be dragging us down. The second that China starts to negatively affect our standard of living, rather than propping it up, there would be an embargo.
It's the rest of the Third World that would suffer. And Poland.
Quote from: Neil on May 30, 2011, 02:28:06 PM
Why? They won't be dragging us down. The second that China starts to negatively affect our standard of living, rather than propping it up, there would be an embargo.
It probably won't be as clear cut as all that. For some people the standard of living will increase, for others it won't. There'll always be some people able to profit from a race to the bottom.
Quote from: Jacob on May 30, 2011, 06:39:33 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 30, 2011, 02:28:06 PM
Why? They won't be dragging us down. The second that China starts to negatively affect our standard of living, rather than propping it up, there would be an embargo.
It probably won't be as clear cut as all that. For some people the standard of living will increase, for others it won't. There'll always be some people able to profit from a race to the bottom.
Perhaps, but it's a matter of how many, and do they live in swing states.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 30, 2011, 05:11:48 AM
My impression is that Chinese, Japanese and (South) Koreans all work very long hours.
True, but most of those hours also include going drinking with the boss :contract: