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Got my form through the post today. It actually asks should we switch to AV- yes/no. But meh, this way is better.
How would you vote on such a referendum?

AV is utterly immoral.

What's AV?

QuoteAs a democratic society, we are regularly told that 'every vote counts',  yet, we often forget how true this statement is.  Too busy with essay  deadlines, exam revision and the attraction of Leeds' alluring student  nightlife scene, we can all too easily forget that choosing between AV,  FTPT and SV will actually make a direct difference to our future.

:lmfao:

Yes. You will get to make entirely different choices about which puppet figurehead you want to pretend to govern you all the while figuratively (and soemtimes literally) raping the working electorate.

I'm the only person in the world, I think, who actually favours AV over FPTP and most PR systems.  I like it.

The no campaign's been pretty despicable too.

I shall probably vote for FPTP, it has the virtue of simplicity; also, general election night would be ruined if we had AV.......the results would trickle in over the next few days.

QuoteI shall probably vote for FPTP, it has the virtue of simplicity; also, general election night would be ruined if we had AV.......the results would trickle in over the next few days.

Nah, don't think it would take that long. Maybe an extra hour or two where votes have to be transferred.
FPTP being simpler than AV...It is but they're both so mindnumbingly simple tasks its pretty irrelevant.

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 16, 2011, 12:27:35 PM
I'm the only person in the world, I think, who actually favours AV over FPTP and most PR systems.  I like it.

No, I think the same. I'm anti-PR but pro AV.

Quote
The no campaign's been pretty despicable too.

Agreed.
Shame the yes campaign has been so crap in response though. Their recent advert was lame.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 16, 2011, 01:03:51 PM
I shall probably vote for FPTP, it has the virtue of simplicity; also, general election night would be ruined if we had AV.......the results would trickle in over the next few days.

I don't think that's true.  I think Australia still has election night and I think they're the only country that has a system like this.

It's not insufferable like Ireland's STV :bleeding:

My mind is not fully made up; I'm hoping that the campaigns will improve and actually advance cogent arguments for one method over the other, plus details of the operational advantages/disadvantages. The result is wide open IMO, the best campaign is likely to win.

Someone really needs to explain what this is.

Other then meaning Alternative Vote, what does that alternative entails?

Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 02:51:34 PM
Someone really needs to explain what this is.

In the present system you get to put an X next to one candidates name and the candidate with most votes wins.

In the AV system you put numbers, starting at 1 (indicating first preference) to whatever number you want or until you run out of candidates. All the votes are counted and the votes for the candidate with the fewest votes are then re-examined and the second preferences are counted. The candidate with fewest votes is eliminated until one candidate gets half the votes, or there are only two candidates remaining, in which case the most votes wins.


Basically AV allows all the British voters that want to vote AGAINST the tories but can't figure out which candidate is the ideal one for tactical voting to vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_vote

Optionally listing your voting preferences. If your top preference gets the least votes your vote is switched to your second choice (and so on for second and third and, in theory anyway, third and fourth, etc...)

e.g. I put
1: Lib dem
2: Labour
3: Conservatives

Votes come in and its
Labour: 43%
Conservatives: 40%
Lib dem: 17%

My vote then gets switched to being one for labour, the other lib dem voters also get their votes switched to their second choice.



edit- ack, ninjad by viking.
But yeah. Lets you vote with your heart rather than your head. No voting for someone you don't really approve of just because the only people that stand a chance are him and a woman who you really hate. You're free to actually vote for the third party which doesn't stand much of a chance but you actually like, safe in the knowledge through your vote being switched to the dodgy guy the nasty woman won't sneak in the backdoor.

Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 03:17:55 PM
Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

I would mark that with a 1.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 03:17:55 PM
Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

Seems that would just mean even more empty suits with pretty faces promising the moon.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2011, 03:41:18 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 03:17:55 PM
Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

Seems that would just mean even more empty suits with pretty faces promising the moon.

Of course. They'd still be politicians. The only way to avoid that would be to elect our leaders by lottery like we do jury duty.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2011, 03:41:18 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 03:17:55 PM
Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

Seems that would just mean even more empty suits with pretty faces promising the moon.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bergproperties.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F02%2Fmitt_romney.jpg&hash=a4b7a08ac7d8a9b26fa6be5dbb2555e3bb26f360)

?

The UK system of AV would be slightly different from other countries, though it exists for local elections elsewhere.  My understanding is that you'll only get three preferences and you don't actually have to make a preference at all.  In elections with this system about 60% just plump for one candidate. 

QuoteOther: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals. 

We vote for them anyway.  Though I think AV would lead to more independents which could be good (or dreadful).

To be honest I think this Parliament so far's been pretty impressive, the government less so.

So, a situation could happen where 49% vote for candidate 1, and 49% for candidate 2, and 80% pick candidate 3 as their second choice--then #3 wins even though nobody actually wanted him first.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 04:07:39 PM
So, a situation could happen where 49% vote for candidate 1, and 49% for candidate 2, and 80% pick candidate 3 as their second choice--then #3 wins even though nobody actually wanted him first.

Well, no.

In your example candidate 3 is eliminated in the first count, having received least votes, their vote second preference is then redistributed between candidate 1 and 2 until one has over 50%.

Reminds me of the California recall thing where Gray Davis could have gotten the most votes but still lost. 


Anyway, don't care of this idea as it encourage idiots to vote for other idiots like the Green party or the Constitution party.

Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 04:11:51 PM
Anyway, don't care of this idea as it encourage idiots to vote for other idiots like the Green party or the Constitution party.

That's fair in the US. 

One of the arguments for AV is that in the 50s there were two parties who between them received around 90% of the vote, in those circumstances FPTP works.  But now we have Labour, Tories and Lib Dems throughout Britain, and Plaid and the SNP in Wales and Scotland, and the Greens in certain areas so FPTP doesn't reflect voters' choices anymore and acts like we have a 2 party system when we don't.

This is like an AV election, but I think in AV the votes would be redistributed until a candidate gets over 50%, rather than just two rounds:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2008

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 03:17:55 PM
Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

Impossible.
But it is thought that AV could really help individual candidates.

The Lib-Dem part of the coalition think that they would get lots of 2nd votes, as they occupy the ground between Labour and the Tories. There may be a risk of people giving their first vote to some loons (UKIP, BNP......perhaps a fringe socialist party) and then their 2nd preference to a mainstream party..........but this may be a good thing, many people loathe the EU and multiculturism, but the main parties will do nothing about that............depends how truly democratic one wants to be  :hmm:

My first preference vote will be Yes to AV, and my second preference will be for No.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 16, 2011, 04:21:14 PM
The Lib-Dem part of the coalition think that they would get lots of 2nd votes, as they occupy the ground between Labour and the Tories. There may be a risk of people giving their first vote to some loons (UKIP, BNP......perhaps a fringe socialist party) and then their 2nd preference to a mainstream party..........but this may be a good thing, many people loathe the EU and multiculturism, but the main parties will do nothing about that............depends how truly democratic one wants to be  :hmm:

One of the lies of the no campaign is saying AV would lead to the BNP getting into power...except of course the BNP oppose AV because they know it would screw them over.
The way I've heard it, and it makes sense, AV would help serious minor parties who can appeal to the general population. Due to the target of a 50% threshold though it would really screw over extremists like the BNP who most of the population absolutely hate with a passion.
Even I, conservative hater that I am, would put them as a (low) preference if the BNP were running in my constituency. Just in case.

I can't see the BNP winning with this system.  I do think UKIP and the Greens will pick up a few seats though. 

That's one of the things I like about AV; I think it's more representative and fair than FPTP without doling out seats to the mentalists like PR.

I think you are being optimistic about the paucity of support for the BNP; though I do agree that a minor change to AV will probably not enable them to win a seat.

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 16, 2011, 04:29:44 PM
I can't see the BNP winning with this system.  I do think UKIP and the Greens will pick up a few seats though. 

That's one of the things I like about AV; I think it's more representative and fair than FPTP without doling out seats to the mentalists like PR.

Its more destroying local representation that has me against PR.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 16, 2011, 04:31:23 PM
I think you are being optimistic about the paucity of support for the BNP; though I do agree that a minor change to AV will probably not enable them to win a seat.

I think they'd possibly be able to come first in a few small seats but there's no way they'd be able to get 50%+1 of a constituency.

We should bear in mind that the form of PR used in the elections to the European parliament resulted in 2 BNP MEPs being returned.

People vote different in Europe to in UK elections. Some think the racist/europhobe parties represent their views on Europe best if not their general views on running the country. Others just plain like to troll Brussels.

The BNP and AV...
Well with FPTP I think they would do better. Have a three way scrap for the rational vote, a bunch of other minor parties and a low turn out and they sneak through with 15% of the constituency voting for them.
With AV though...I'd see the sane voters banding together and picking their mainstream rival over the BNP. The most I could ever see the BNP managing is perhaps one seat after a riot in Bradford or somewhere like that. Its a long shot though.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 16, 2011, 04:37:20 PM
We should bear in mind that the form of PR used in the elections to the European parliament resulted in 2 BNP MEPs being returned.

But that's totally different from AV where you need 50%+1 in any constituency to get representation.  I think UKIP and the Greens will get that in a few seats, but I just can't see the BNP ever managing that in a general election. 

It does seem unlikely...............but.........a shame there are no elderly Germans on the forum, they could perhaps tell us how unlikely a Nazi victory seemed back in 1930. We are a complacent nation, that is a good thing in many ways, but I'm rather concerned that political extremism may be closer than we think.

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 16, 2011, 04:42:04 PM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 16, 2011, 04:37:20 PM
We should bear in mind that the form of PR used in the elections to the European parliament resulted in 2 BNP MEPs being returned.

But that's totally different from AV where you need 50%+1 in any constituency to get representation.  I think UKIP and the Greens will get that in a few seats, but I just can't see the BNP ever managing that in a general election.

You should be so lucky.

It's the only way you're going to survive as a nation.

Quote from: Warspite on April 16, 2011, 04:23:35 PM
My first preference vote will be Yes to AV, and my second preference will be for No.

:lol:

I would have a lot more sympathy for AV if it wasn't a bald-faced attempt to create a one-party state in the UK.

What effect do you think a system like this would have in Canada?

Quote from: Neil on April 17, 2011, 10:42:41 AM
I would have a lot more sympathy for AV if it wasn't a bald-faced attempt to create a one-party state in the UK.

:unsure:
Which one party would this be?
Most critics say the opposite, that it would destroy any chance of a strong government and make coalitions far more normal. Which of course is ignoring history, hung parliaments aren't too rare at all in the UK.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 16, 2011, 03:17:55 PM
Other: Outlaw all political parties and vote for individuals.  :P

Err, it's still a vote for individuals.