The US government has finally lowered the banhammer on online poker. It was nice while it lasted. :cry:
Link?
Link, please.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/15/news/economy/online_poker_indictments/?section=money_latest
Linksys?
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2011, 03:50:41 PM
The US government has finally lowered the banhammer on online poker. It was nice while it lasted. :cry:
Huh. Any source on this? I'm looking, and the media coverage is atrocious; I can't find anything newer than 2008...
Really? Does Google News work only for me?
Interesting. I doubt it marks the end of it, it's too big of a business. They'll just end up having to pay taxes & based themselves in Las Vegas.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 03:59:02 PM
Interesting. I doubt it marks the end of it, it's too big of a business. They'll just end up having to pay taxes & based themselves in Las Vegas.
Well, the fact that such an operation would be illegal in US is why this hasn't happened in the first place. The companies would be happy to pay US taxes, they pay much more to get around the US banking laws (which is what finally got them in trouble).
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 03:59:02 PM
Interesting. I doubt it marks the end of it, it's too big of a business. They'll just end up having to pay taxes & based themselves in Las Vegas.
This. Before I saw DGuller's link, my searching brought me to stories about DC and Nevada lifting online gambling bans- this is starting to smell like DOJ wanting to make sure they get prosecutions while they're available.
Then, what's the solution? Elimination of Online poker playing in the US? I doubt that's going to happen.
The "illegal gambling" part is dwarfed by the charges of bank fraud and money-laundering.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 04:04:26 PM
Then, what's the solution? Elimination of Online poker playing in the US? I doubt that's going to happen.
Like in Quebec: Online poker sites run by the State, with outrageous rake and no rakeback.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 04:04:26 PM
Then, what's the solution? Elimination of Online poker playing in the US? I doubt that's going to happen.
The central issue in these cases isn't even the gambling violations- it's the bank fraud and money laundering. The gambling violations are included as part of the package, and it seems to cynical old me that it's a great way to make sure they get convictions and still manage to score political points against online gambling- which is starting to gain legitimacy, despite DOJ opinion against it.
Twoplustwo.com is downloading very slowly for me now... why I am not surprised.
This is a good example of how having ridiculous, unenforceable laws breeds contempt for the entire legal system.
I hope my 10K in fake money is still at Pokerstars.
There is already talk here of starting it up in Nevada and having an exemption for us. :P
I've always wanted to be in a poker tournament and piss off Phil Hellmuth.
I still have about 350 bucks on my FTP account.
I have about $3,500 on PS. :( At least I had enough foresight to completely bust my bankroll on Full Tilt.
I imagine pros are going to get clobbered on sponsorships.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 15, 2011, 04:43:34 PM
I've always wanted to be in a poker tournament and piss off Phil Hellmuth.
I'd pay to see him get punched.
I see a new business opportunity.
Send me to Vegas to punch a poker pro.
Quote from: Siege on April 15, 2011, 03:52:18 PM
Linksys?
I have a Linksys. The damn thing gives me all kinds of trouble.
http://www.businessinsider.com/boy-genius-online-poker-scandal-2011-4
QuoteMeet The Boy Genius Who Just Took Down The Online Poker Industry
The internet is still coming to grips with the huge online gambling bust that just took down the U.S.'s three biggest online poker sites.
But Australia's Courier-Mail newspaper already has the scoop on the one man who may have single-handedly built the online industry ... then handed it to the U.S. government on a platter.
According to this story, Daniel Tzvetkoff was a young Australian entrepreneur who set up the payment processing schemes used by the biggest poker sites to handle their (mostly illegal) transactions.
He is described by those who know him as a "boy wonder" and "genius" who started his first company at 13 and knew all the intricacies of e-commerce.
He made Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars millions of dollars — and made as much as $150,000 a day for himself — but then got even more greedy and started taking their. They sued him, accusing Tzvetkoff of taking more than $100 million of their money.
Then last April, Tzvetkoff was arrested in Las Vegas and charged with the same crimes those sites' founders were charged with today: money laundering, bank fraud, wire fraud. As an Australian citizen with a lot of cash, he was considered a flight risk and denied bail.
Then after a "secret" meeting with prosecutors last August, he was suddenly out on bail. And now his former colleagues are the ones facing serious prison time.
Daniel Tzvetkoff knows the operations of these poker sites inside and out. It was knowledge of the financial industry that allowed them to operate. He's the one man positioned to give the U.S. Attorneys everything they needed to take down their businesses.
And it looks like that's exactly what he did, cooperating with the authorities to avoid his own lengthy jail sentence.
All the major gambling prosecutions in the U.S. since Tzvetkoff's arrest have been run out of the office of Arlo Devlin-Brown, the Manhattan Asst. U.S. Attorney who is Tzvetkoff's "handler."
According to a source, Tzvetkoff "knows how to reverse-engineer transactions to determine its original source," making him very valuable to investigators.
And the biggest irony of all? It's been rumored that the only reason the FBI got their hands on him is because Full Tilt or Poker Stars (the companies he used to work for and stole from) tipped off the FBI that he was going to be traveling to the United States last year.
They ratted him out ... and he turned the tables. No honor among thieves.
And as the Courier Mail put it, if this were still the old days, he'd buried in the Las Vegas desert right now.
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2011, 06:20:44 PM
I have about $3,500 on PS. :( At least I had enough foresight to completely bust my bankroll on Full Tilt.
Don't worry, I'm sure you will be able to sell it to a Euro for fifty cents on the dollar.
:mad:
Quote from: stjaba on April 15, 2011, 07:45:45 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2011, 06:20:44 PM
I have about $3,500 on PS. :( At least I had enough foresight to completely bust my bankroll on Full Tilt.
Don't worry, I'm sure you will be able to sell it to a Euro for fifty cents on the dollar.
Not if Pokerstars is closed down. And even if it isn't, they still technically prohibit transfers as an extra-site bank transfer scheme.
I used to play on Pokerroom.com, site appears to be operating normally.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 07:56:38 PM
I used to play on Pokerroom.com, site appears to be operating normally.
They hit the 3 biggest sites, Pokerstars, Full Tilt Poker and Ultimate Bet. Nothing has happened to any other sites yet, but i am sure they are scared shitless at the moment.
Quote from: sbr on April 15, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 07:56:38 PM
I used to play on Pokerroom.com, site appears to be operating normally.
They hit the 3 biggest sites, Pokerstars, Full Tilt Poker and Ultimate Bet. Nothing has happened to any other sites yet, but i am sure they are scared shitless at the moment.
The sites that didn't allow US players to play should be OK (in fact, they should be making out like bandits). The sites that are in trouble are those that continued to serve US customers after 2006, and thus had to resort to banking fraud to transfer money to and from the players.
Quote from: DGuller on April 15, 2011, 08:04:15 PM
Quote from: sbr on April 15, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 15, 2011, 07:56:38 PM
I used to play on Pokerroom.com, site appears to be operating normally.
They hit the 3 biggest sites, Pokerstars, Full Tilt Poker and Ultimate Bet. Nothing has happened to any other sites yet, but i am sure they are scared shitless at the moment.
The sites that didn't allow US players to play should be OK (in fact, they should be making out like bandits). The sites that are in trouble are those that continued to serve US customers after 2006, and thus had to resort to banking fraud to transfer money to and from the players.
In a big picture general sense, yes this is true. The question is, are there
any other sites that have allowed US players to deposit or withdraw funds since the UIGEA took effect (Dec '08 IIRC?). If there are, those sites would have had to violate the exact same laws the Big 3 sites did. There are only the 3 specific sites that have had any legal action taken against them at this point though, so if there are other sites out there they are not specifically affected by today's events, other than as a warning shot.
Quote from: Neil on April 15, 2011, 04:32:10 PM
This is a good example of how having ridiculous, unenforceable laws breeds contempt for the entire legal system.
Meh, fools will always be quick to be parted with their cash.
Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2011, 08:59:20 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 15, 2011, 04:32:10 PM
This is a good example of how having ridiculous, unenforceable laws breeds contempt for the entire legal system.
Meh, fools will always be quick to be parted with their cash.
Exactly, which is why this is so disappointing. :menace:
werent there some ban in place already since a couple of years or so?
looks like the brick and mortar casinos can "convince" strongly
Quote from: Tamas on April 15, 2011, 09:19:04 PM
werent there some ban in place already since a couple of years or so?
looks like the brick and mortar casinos can "convince" strongly
The law that passed in the US a few years ago said that US based banks and credit card companies couldn't process deposits or withdrawals from internet gambling sites. The act of playing poker on the internet wasn't effected by that law.
EDIT: Way too many commas. :blush:
Remember America is all about freedom.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2011, 10:26:40 PM
Remember America is all about freedom.
:lol:
Seriously this is way beyond pathetic. The FBI is used to fight for the business interest of the big b&m casinos?
I remember that law, allegedly it was along the lines of "online gambling is dangerous to society!!!! except if its lottery or betting on horse races!"
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2011, 10:26:40 PM
Remember America is all about freedom.
Freedom to commit bank fraud. USA! USA! USA!
I'm glad I got out of this last month. The roughly ten thousand a year in extra income helped, but the hassle these days just makes online poker not worth it.
I can probably write enough extra short stories to make up for the lost income from online poker.
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 10:19:51 AM
I'm glad I got out of this last month. The roughly ten thousand a year in extra income helped, but the hassle these days just makes online poker not worth it.
I can probably write enough extra short stories to make up for the lost income from online poker.
Shame, grumbles. Internet penis-waving just isn't becoming of you. :P
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 16, 2011, 10:49:16 AM
Shame, grumbles. Internet penis-waving just isn't becoming of you. :P
As you should know, claims of success in internet poker are as
de rigeur as the dismissal of internet beauties for "pointy elbows." And no more serious.
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2011, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 16, 2011, 10:49:16 AM
Shame, grumbles. Internet penis-waving just isn't becoming of you. :P
As you should know, claims of success in internet poker are as de rigeur as the dismissal of internet beauties for "pointy elbows." And no more serious.
Are you denying that you can be making money in online poker, or are you just saying that most of the people who claim to win money actually don't?
Most likely the case that 1% of internet poker players are making 90% of any profit that's not going to the house. Rough guesstimates of course.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 16, 2011, 05:37:34 PM
Most likely the case that 1% of internet poker players are making 90% of any profit that's not going to the house. Rough guesstimates of course.
That is true, most people lose at poker. Of course, weighing it by the head count is probably misleading. People who play more poker are more likely to be winning at it, and they're also more likely to be talking about it. Someone who deposited once or twice and never played again is probably going to be less interested in piping in about online poker than someone who played for 5 years and read 30 books on poker.
Most players suck at poker and will play tight passive or like spewing monkeys. Sturgeon's Law at work. We don't suck, we learn to try to take the best decisions over the long run, spot the juiciest tables and own them, so we make money. The key word is : on the long run.
No serious poker player plays without rakeback nowadays. That significantly softens the impact of rake on profits, but it's unavailable outside online poker.
If a player doesn't understand that in poker immediate results does not follow real skill, and that even the most skillful of players will face downswings, then the game is not for him.
To be fair, winning at online poker takes way more than just not sucking or tilting these days. Most tables are filled with people who play for a living, or try to. This is one of the reasons I largely stopped playing, it was just not fun as a game.
I much prefer just going to Atlantic City and spending a day in a real casino with real cards and chips, even if I have to drive 2 hours one way. I think online poker was destroying itself by everyone being overly greedy, and I won't miss it much, although I do miss the $3,500 that I foolishly left there after largely stopping.
Quote from: DGuller on April 16, 2011, 06:00:54 PM
To be fair, winning at online poker takes way more than just not sucking or tilting these days. Most tables are filled with people who play for a living, or try to. This is one of the reasons I largely stopped playing, it was just not fun as a game.
I agree. At certain stakes juicy tables simply became rarer, and the competition tougher. I was still playing at stakes in which most players were fishes.
You have the luck to have bricks and mortar tables where you live for cash games, I don't, because the Casino here doesn't even offer 1-2$ NL anymore. The only places I play table poker is in small tournaments.
I'm actually going to a casino tomorrow. Mostly so I can avoid my mom as she picks through stuff in the basement. I'll probably only spend about 20 bucks though. I've never gone to a Casino before. Oddly the Casino is called the Isle of Capri, and I've been to the real Isle of Capri. It has a tropical theme which is somewhat different then actual location.
Quote from: Drakken on April 16, 2011, 06:03:43 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 16, 2011, 06:00:54 PM
To be fair, winning at online poker takes way more than just not sucking or tilting these days. Most tables are filled with people who play for a living, or try to. This is one of the reasons I largely stopped playing, it was just not fun as a game.
I agree. At certain stakes juicy tables simply became rarer, and the competition tougher. I was still playing at stakes in which most players were fishes.
You have the luck to have bricks and mortar tables where you live for cash games, I don't, because the Casino here doesn't even offer 1-2$ NL anymore. The only places I play table poker is in small tournaments.
Do people play in home games where you live? I also play in a home game with some poker buddies a couple of times a month, which is even more fun than driving to AC.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2011, 06:08:52 PM
I'm actually going to a casino tomorrow. Mostly so I can avoid my mom as she picks through stuff in the basement. I'll probably only spend about 20 bucks though. I've never gone to a Casino before. Oddly the Casino is called the Isle of Capri, and I've been to the real Isle of Capri. It has a tropical theme which is somewhat different then actual location.
Take only the money you plan on spending. That way, you aren't tempted to plop another hundred on the table.
I'm really not interested in spending anything. I'll just take a twenty.
Never played online poker, but every couple weeks I and a few colleagues meet for a poker night. No high stakes, 10 EUR buy in per round; but then we play for fun.
Quote from: Syt on April 17, 2011, 12:11:42 PM
Never played online poker, but every couple weeks I and a few colleagues meet for a poker night. No high stakes, 10 EUR buy in per round; but then we play for fun.
You can play with free money online too. People just tend to suck there.
Poker with play money:
1st hand:
BiggusDickus: ALL IN!
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 17, 2011, 01:14:25 PM
Quote from: Syt on April 17, 2011, 12:11:42 PM
Never played online poker, but every couple weeks I and a few colleagues meet for a poker night. No high stakes, 10 EUR buy in per round; but then we play for fun.
You can play with free money online too. People just tend to suck there.
Playing poker without money is like having sex without nudity.
Quote from: DGuller on April 17, 2011, 01:22:17 PM
Playing poker without money is like having sex without nudity.
Terrible analogy. Sex with your clothes on can be pretty damn good.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 17, 2011, 01:23:51 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 17, 2011, 01:22:17 PM
Playing poker without money is like having sex without nudity.
Terrible analogy. Sex with your clothes on can be pretty damn good.
Don't you have to reveal something at some point? Maybe I should've used "exposure" rather than "nudity".
They are going after Full Tilt hard now. And Howard whatshisname and the Jesus dude.
I pulled all my money out of PokerStars a few months back. Sigh.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 20, 2011, 06:47:59 PM
They are going after Full Tilt hard now. And Howard whatshisname and the Jesus dude.
I thought Full Tilt had gone completely busto and wasn't retuyrning customers money? Haven't looked for a few months though.
I gave up a couple of months ago. I trusted pokerstars but when they put up the tournie rake it became really hard to justify spending time. Plus I'd got boredof it all. Playing 16 tables at a time I was just robotic.
Essentially it did go completely busto. They're now in trouble with DOJ because they used player's money that they couldn't pay back to pay the owners huge dividends, essentially looting the company and the players' accounts. Something always didn't feel right to me about having a bunch of players run an online poker company. Thankfully, all my money were on Stars, which does seem like a fully legitimate poker company.
I also agree that online poker has gotten to be way too boring, and I haven't missed it once since the Black Friday. Way too much emphasis is put on accommodating the robotic grinders who play 24 tables at once, and not nearly enough emphasis is put on making sure that it's just a fun poker-playing experience for casual players. Good riddance, I actually hope now that online poker never comes back to US. I think in its present iteration it's just a money siphoning machine, with the "pros" who forgo useful careers in their 20ies being one of the victims (even if they don't know it yet).
Goddamit I still had a bit of money on full tilt, now that you mention it. Damn.
But I agree fully with your analysis DG.
Quote from: DGuller on September 21, 2011, 07:28:10 AM
I think in its present iteration it's just a money siphoning machine, with the "pros" who forgo useful careers in their 20ies being one of the victims (even if they don't know it yet).
I often wondered what the low-level pros (the guys who are pulling down five figures) are going to do with themselves once the fad ends.
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 21, 2011, 07:28:10 AM
I think in its present iteration it's just a money siphoning machine, with the "pros" who forgo useful careers in their 20ies being one of the victims (even if they don't know it yet).
I often wondered what the low-level pros (the guys who are pulling down five figures) are going to do with themselves once the fad ends.
Starbucks barista.
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 21, 2011, 07:28:10 AM
I think in its present iteration it's just a money siphoning machine, with the "pros" who forgo useful careers in their 20ies being one of the victims (even if they don't know it yet).
I often wondered what the low-level pros (the guys who are pulling down five figures) are going to do with themselves once the fad ends.
I kinda' witnessed that in fixed limit poker and it wasn't nice. As my game improved and I started making decent profit (with the help of bonus grinding, to be fair), the no limit tables started to spread and all the fun-seekers went there. Gone were the days of asstard Turks berzerk-raising on mid-pair through the hand.
But also after a while, were gone the US people I liked to play against the most: they were there for fun, and even if I didnt play well / were unlucky, it was a good time with a good flowing game, and some chatting.
So what remained were the rocks, and the tables just dried the fuck up. I had a bad spell, then made the calculations that I could might as well get a second job as an accountant, or coal miner, becasue this is very low paying, tedious, stressful, and boring.
So yeah I was wonderign how on Earth can this remain the money-making machine the media still make it out to be, when the general public gets fed up of losing their all ins and move on.
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:27:15 AM
I often wondered what the low-level pros (the guys who are pulling down five figures) are going to do with themselves once the fad ends.
Anyone in the last couple of years who could make more than $50K pa playing poker can almost ceratinly make double that doing something else. It's certainly not the easy money it once was.
From what I can gather from 2+2 some of yank pros have got proper jobs, some have moved to contries like Thailand or Argentina where they can play and have lower living costs, some are playing casinos.
Quote from: Ed Anger on September 21, 2011, 08:29:04 AM
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: DGuller on September 21, 2011, 07:28:10 AM
I think in its present iteration it's just a money siphoning machine, with the "pros" who forgo useful careers in their 20ies being one of the victims (even if they don't know it yet).
I often wondered what the low-level pros (the guys who are pulling down five figures) are going to do with themselves once the fad ends.
Starbucks barista.
Starbucks will go out of business about three days after Apple does, after they're forced to pay a trillion-dollar fine for all those patents they stole.
My 10,000 in play money still exists at Poker Stars. :)
I used to play at Pokerroom.com, does that still exist?
Speaking of which, what I wish to have is the insight to spot the next big hipster tech thing appearing. Because then I would short the hell out of Apple and laugh as they crumble themselves into my retirement.
Quote from: Neil on September 21, 2011, 08:37:11 AM
Starbucks will go out of business about three days after Apple does, after they're forced to pay a trillion-dollar fine for all those patents they stole.
:huh:
Just because Apple goes out of business doesn't mean hipsters stop being hipsters.
My impression is that Starbucks' boom years were when Apple was nearly invisible.
So in essence FTP was an online Ponzi scheme, its owners funding themselves with players' money.
Well it's 200 US$ I won't ever, ever see back. It's little, but it's the principle of being had and robbed. :(
Gub'mint says online poker Otay. Poker Nerds in US rejoice, can go back to basements and get out of sunlight.
Sales of virtual sunglasses and hoodies skyrocket.
Still my dream to enrage Phil Hellmuth. Bonus would be on TV.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 26, 2011, 04:26:33 PM
Gub'mint says online poker Otay. Poker Nerds in US rejoice, can go back to basements and get out of sunlight.
I hate to ask you to go all Timmay on us, but you got a link? I can't find anything.
Quote from: sbr on December 26, 2011, 08:47:33 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 26, 2011, 04:26:33 PM
Gub'mint says online poker Otay. Poker Nerds in US rejoice, can go back to basements and get out of sunlight.
I hate to ask you to go all Timmay on us, but you got a link? I can't find anything.
Since you ain't Timmy, laziest motherfucker on the Internet, I'll oblige.
http://www.compatiblepoker.com/poker-rumors/ppa-comments-on-us-online-poker-clarification/5274
The conspiracy theory I've heard for a long time now is that the government crackdown was ordered when online poker legalization already seemed like a sure bet. The government wanted to get rid of the foreign competition, and competition that profited from breaking the law, before allowing domestic casino companies to set up camp. The bad thing for Pokerstars and company is that they have been nailed dead to rights on the financial fraud, even if that financial fraud was made necessary by the fact that banks considered a legal activity illegal.