Take that Neil! :contract:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20003358-71.html
QuoteApril 25, 2010 2:54 PM PDT
Stephen Hawking: Aliens might hate us
by Chris Matyszczyk
I know many of you cannot wait for the day when we encounter little green people over a beer, or perhaps even turn into them.
However, one of the world's most celebrated scientific brains, Stephen Hawking, wonders whether aliens and humans really can co-exist.
According to the Times of London, Hawking has made a new documentary, "Stephen Hawking's Universe," for the Discovery Channel, which is scheduled to be broadcast in May. In this film, which took three years to make, Hawking offers his view of what really might be out there.
He doesn't paint an entirely attractive picture. Though he has no doubt that, because of simple mathematical deduction, there are other beings in the galaxy, he doesn't imagine they might be either especially pleasant or especially bright.
In the documentary, Hawking isn't optimistic that too many alien beings will be intelligent or even particularly dangerous, but if humans ever came into contact with them, he really fears for us rather than them.
"If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn't turn out very well for the Native Americans," the Times quotes him as saying.
And just in case your stomach begins to churn, even without an alien inside it, Hawking expanded: "I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonize whatever planets they can reach."
Indeed, these might be extra-terrestrial Visigoth yuppies who would just come here for our Priuses and our In-N-Out burgers.
I do so wish someone could offer us some heartening hope that aliens might arrive and help us to emerge in an uplifting way from the supreme domination of Earth's oppressive triumvirate of Goldman Sachs, the Gosselins, and the New York Yankees.
Take that?
It's not particularily convincing, unless you're writing a sci-fi movie.
Hmm, interesting take on it. Has the possibility of the visiting aliens being hostile to humans ever been explored in some works of fiction?
I think it's a given that any aliens encountered will almost certainly be hostile. And if they aren't our brutal attempted betrayal and subjegation will ensure it.
I'm sure Carl Sagan would refute him if he wasn't dead.
How the hell would he know? What is he, a rocket scientist?
The smartest animals tend to be social predators.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 25, 2010, 10:14:01 PM
The smartest animals tend to be social predators.
Interstellar spaceflight has different requirements.
It would be so delicious if these people landed in Europe first and fucked them up. After that though it wouldn't be funny anymore.
Oh man. SETI. Threat to SOLAR SYSTEM security.
QuoteI do so wish someone could offer us some heartening hope that aliens might arrive and help us to emerge in an uplifting way from the supreme domination of Earth's oppressive triumvirate of Goldman Sachs, the Gosselins, and the New York Yankees.
Toss in the New England Patriots and the PLA, and I for one would welcome our new interstellar overlords.
Quote from: StphenHawking
Aliens might hate us.
What an insight! No wonder he is hailed as a genius!
Surely this bit of news makes up for all the inane trivia and blindingly obvious "news flashes" Tim has started threads about in the past.
The thing is, I expect us to encounter intelligent machine life first, and since we have no true examples of a society populated by AIs, it's hard to say how they'd behave. I think it's likely that they would view us as insects and be primarily interested in harvesting our mineral resources, though.
Quote from: Caliga on April 26, 2010, 06:06:54 AM
The thing is, I expect us to encounter intelligent machine life first, and since we have no true examples of a society populated by AIs, it's hard to say how they'd behave. I think it's likely that they would view us as insects and be primarily interested in harvesting our mineral resources, though.
Given that machine AI is a fantasy right now, you are correct to say that it's hard to say how they would behave! :lol:
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
I find it very bizzare that someone so smart can come to such an unlikely conclusion.
I think its quite a given that the opposite is true. Any aliens we encounter will be peaceful.
Just imagine if somehow we are out exploring space today (impossible but...yeah) and we stumble across a alien civilization. Are we going to go all Independance Day? Of course not. The press is bad enough when the military kills a few Arabs let alone wiping out an entire civilization.
It would be an amazing discovery which changes the way we look at the universe. We aren't going to destroy them just for the hell of it.
And thats our far from perfect modern civilization which still has a lot of the violent animal in us. Starflight is a few hundred years of development out of our reach at least- either we continue to become less violent or we destroy ourselves before we get anywhere.
Just imagine if spaceships were freely available today. There would be bound to be some nutter who decides to smash into earth at relativistic speeds.
Analogy to the past- doesn't work.
People say 'yeah but Earth has resources, the aliens will want those!'- not really.
Earth is a insignificant remote little skerry which is damn difficult to land on. We're the Faroe Islands (only relocated to the middle of the Indian ocean or something), not the Americas. If the aliens want resources they can get them far far easier in space itself with asteroids and comets and the like.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
Seems possible. I'm sure there are intelligent civilizations in the universe that went extinct millions of years ago. LOL was Jesus: space alien.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 06:17:09 AM
I find it very bizzare that someone so smart can come to such an unlikely conclusion.
I think its quite a given that the opposite is true. Any aliens we encounter will be peaceful.
Just imagine if somehow we are out exploring space today (impossible but...yeah) and we stumble across a alien civilization. Are we going to go all Independance Day? Of course not. The press is bad enough when the military kills a few Arabs let alone wiping out an entire civilization.
It would be an amazing discovery which changes the way we look at the universe. We aren't going to destroy them just for the hell of it.
And thats our far from perfect modern civilization which still has a lot of the violent animal in us. Starflight is a few hundred years of development out of our reach at least- either we continue to become less violent or we destroy ourselves before we get anywhere.
Just imagine if spaceships were freely available today. There would be bound to be some nutter who decides to smash into earth at relativistic speeds.
Analogy to the past- doesn't work.
People say 'yeah but Earth has resources, the aliens will want those!'- not really.
Earth is a insignificant remote little skerry which is damn difficult to land on. We're the Faroe Islands (only relocated to the middle of the Indian ocean or something), not the Americas. If the aliens want resources they can get them far far easier in space itself with asteroids and comets and the like.
I am sorry but the post-Columbus destruction of the native Americans is the most probable scenario. Viruses and bacteria that would take the organisms of Earth by total surprise, A various aliesn among their piopulace seeing big profit in our planet thus creating conflicts, human xenophobia and idiots worshipping the aliens as gods here to save us etc.
Personally, I am puzzled by the huge amount of naivity regarding the perceived peacefulness of a space-faring civilization.
I hate to break it to you people, but our civilization has been on a near-constant rise in the last 4-5 thousand years because we are, as a species, lazy, greedy, violent bastards. These three characteristics have been the driving force behind the technological and economical development which resulted in such advanced and rich societies which could support artists and intelligentsia to create all the wonderful and peaceful art.
If a species is peaceful and content, it will never rise to a civilized level, because if you are content to eating leafs off a tree and hiding from the predators, you will never need agriculture, housing, etc.
Quote from: Caliga on April 26, 2010, 06:19:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
Seems possible. I'm sure there are intelligent civilizations in the universe that went extinct millions of years ago. LOL was Jesus: space alien.
He was a hippy high on mushrooms.
Quote from: Caliga on April 26, 2010, 06:19:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
Seems possible. I'm sure there are intelligent civilizations in the universe that went extinct millions of years ago. LOL was Jesus: space alien.
Doh. Of course. He was Jewish, wasn't he? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 06:42:32 AM
I am sorry but the post-Columbus destruction of the native Americans is the most probable scenario. Viruses and bacteria that would take the organisms of Earth by total surprise, A various aliesn among their piopulace seeing big profit in our planet thus creating conflicts, human xenophobia and idiots worshipping the aliens as gods here to save us etc.
Personally, I am puzzled by the huge amount of naivity regarding the perceived peacefulness of a space-faring civilization.
I hate to break it to you people, but our civilization has been on a near-constant rise in the last 4-5 thousand years because we are, as a species, lazy, greedy, violent bastards. These three characteristics have been the driving force behind the technological and economical development which resulted in such advanced and rich societies which could support artists and intelligentsia to create all the wonderful and peaceful art.
If a species is peaceful and content, it will never rise to a civilized level, because if you are content to eating leafs off a tree and hiding from the predators, you will never need agriculture, housing, etc.
Disagree hugely.
This hippy stuff about humans being especially violent dickheads. Bleh.
Animals fight all the time. Violence is life.
Humanity however is about overcoming this. We're the only species to have invented peace. We have accomplished all the great feats of our civilization because once in a while we can forget about killing each other and use a bit of logic and reason.
Sure, we've still got a huge dose of the animal in us, but as we get more advanced this aspect becomes ever further removed. Which is lucky because as we become more advanced our ability to destroy ourselves increases.
I am almost as far from a hippy as you can get.
Animals in the wild live in "balance" because they have no means to consume more, they are largely the same as us we have just developed advanced brain functions to fulfill or various needs much more complexly than them.
Invented peace?!! We have developed methods to handle agression so as to it not destroy a given society, much like a wolfpack.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
Quote from: Caliga on April 26, 2010, 06:06:54 AM
The thing is, I expect us to encounter intelligent machine life first, and since we have no true examples of a society populated by AIs, it's hard to say how they'd behave. I think it's likely that they would view us as insects and be primarily interested in harvesting our mineral resources, though.
Given that machine AI is a fantasy right now, you are correct to say that it's hard to say how they would behave! :lol:
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
Contact with von Neumann style machines is likely to go badly.
http://www.webscription.net/chapters/1416520759/1416520759.htm
He seems to run a pretty convoluted argument to get to an alien visiting earth. But as Neil says, It's not that they hate us, it's just they could use our molecules for something else.
Just ask yourself, if you are high tech enough, then... why would you travel across space and time for years and years when you can simply change the molecules you have around you. If they, Dilgar like, were escaping a supernova or something similar that might make sense.
Quote from: Caliga on April 26, 2010, 06:19:49 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
Seems possible. I'm sure there are intelligent civilizations in the universe that went extinct millions of years ago. LOL was Jesus: space alien.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfJesusThenAliens
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 06:42:32 AM
I am sorry but the post-Columbus destruction of the native Americans is the most probable scenario. Viruses and bacteria that would take the organisms of Earth by total surprise
Bacteria and Viruses adapted for life on another planet is very unlikely to effect us.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 07:05:34 AM
Bacteria and Viruses adapted for life on another planet is very unlikely to effect us.
How do you know that? We have no examples available to us to judge either way.
QuoteAnimals in the wild live in "balance" because they have no means to consume more, they are largely the same as us we have just developed advanced brain functions to fulfill or various needs much more complexly than them.
Invented peace?!! We have developed methods to handle agression so as to it not destroy a given society, much like a wolfpack.
Animals tend not to live in balance. They tend to live in cycles of population boom and bust and constant attacks on each others territory and taking any chance to kill a rival.
And yes. That's my point. We can handle the aggression inherant in all animals. We're better than that. We're not yet perfect but we're improving.
QuoteHow do you know that? We have no examples available to us to judge either way.
Lizard virusses don't affect cows.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 07:12:13 AM
QuoteAnimals in the wild live in "balance" because they have no means to consume more, they are largely the same as us we have just developed advanced brain functions to fulfill or various needs much more complexly than them.
Invented peace?!! We have developed methods to handle agression so as to it not destroy a given society, much like a wolfpack.
Animals tend not to live in balance. They tend to live in cycles of population boom and bust and constant attacks on each others territory and taking any chance to kill a rival.
And yes. That's my point. We can handle the aggression inherant in all animals. We're better than that. We're not yet perfect but we're improving.
QuoteHow do you know that? We have no examples available to us to judge either way.
Lizard virusses don't affect cows.
We are getting better yes, but the attitudes which are in play for that will not get us into space, ever. It will be greed.
Notice how he also said "bacteria".
I'm ashamed I even read this thread.
Also regarding our peacefullnes. One could argue that there is greed behind that as well: a heavily industrialized society requires skilled and educated workers, not to mention the service sector. These (compared to the old times) educated masses cannot be controlled by brute force alone if you expect them to maintain the quantity and quality of work required.
I am not saying this was some grand conspiracy or something, but rather a natural flow of things.
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 07:23:23 AM
Also regarding our peacefullnes. One could argue that there is greed behind that as well: a heavily industrialized society requires skilled and educated workers, not to mention the service sector. These (compared to the old times) educated masses cannot be controlled by brute force alone if you expect them to maintain the quantity and quality of work required.
I am not saying this was some grand conspiracy or something, but rather a natural flow of things.
Whatever the motivation the end result is the same and thats what matters.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 07:23:23 AM
Also regarding our peacefullnes. One could argue that there is greed behind that as well: a heavily industrialized society requires skilled and educated workers, not to mention the service sector. These (compared to the old times) educated masses cannot be controlled by brute force alone if you expect them to maintain the quantity and quality of work required.
I am not saying this was some grand conspiracy or something, but rather a natural flow of things.
Whatever the motivation the end result is the same and thats what matters.
Maybe. What I am saying is that in our core we are a pushy competitive race, and this is exactly what built our civilization. This recipe seems to be far the most likely to result in a space-faring civilization, making peaceful coexistent with them highly unlikely.
I find this argument over something no one could possibly know to be most amusing. I especially enjoy the entirely uninformed speculation about how likely various completely hypothetical scenarios are.
Do carry on. *pops popcorn*
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 07:31:08 AM
Maybe. What I am saying is that in our core we are a pushy competitive race, and this is exactly what built our civilization. This recipe seems to be far the most likely to result in a space-faring civilization, making peaceful coexistent with them highly unlikely.
Name a species which isn't competitive though. Competition is the natural order of things.
Peace is what made our civilization- rather than just playing by the same old rules of throwing pointy sticks around someone thought longer term about farming.
A species which remains as violent as cavemen would destroy itself long before it gets anywhere near space (if indeed if ever does get anywhere to begin with. And its likely they wouldn;t)
Also, don't underestimate just how damn big space is.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
I find this argument over something no one could possibly know to be most amusing. I especially enjoy the entirely uninformed speculation about how likely various completely hypothetical scenarios are.
Do carry on. *pops popcorn*
By the greatest minds on the forum no less.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
I find this argument over something no one could possibly know to be most amusing. I especially enjoy the entirely uninformed speculation about how likely various completely hypothetical scenarios are.
Do carry on. *pops popcorn*
Dude, it is fun. There are people who do not have to constantly bask in the light of their own omnipotency in order to get through a day.
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 07:59:23 AM
Dude, it is fun. There are people who do not have to constantly bask in the light of their own omnipotency in order to get through a day.
Of course it is fun. For the spectators, especially. Participants who don't mind going on the record stating that their abstract speculations are concrete truths (or making up words like "omnipotency") also enjoy these kinds of things.
It is win-win! :)
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 07:59:23 AM
Dude, it is fun. There are people who do not have to constantly bask in the light of their own omnipotency in order to get through a day.
Of course it is fun. For the spectators, especially. Participants who don't mind going on the record stating that their abstract speculations are concrete truths (or making up words like "omnipotency") also enjoy these kinds of things.
It is win-win! :)
FFS when I did I write I am exactly certain I know these things?
At least when I join a conversation I say something about the topic, rather than nitpicking on a badly placed letter to start one of my perceived "debates".
Get off me, I am not in the mood.
Once again Jos shows how glaringly ridiculous his new handle is.
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
If machines reproduced with some kind of a genetic algorithm, then survival instinct should be among the very first things selected for.
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 06:42:32 AM
I am sorry but the post-Columbus destruction of the native Americans is the most probable scenario. Viruses and bacteria that would take the organisms of Earth by total surprise, A various aliesn among their piopulace seeing big profit in our planet thus creating conflicts, human xenophobia and idiots worshipping the aliens as gods here to save us etc.
Viruses and bacteria? Alien viruses and bacteria might not be able to interact with our cells at all. And as for profit, how does one derive profit from Earth?
QuotePersonally, I am puzzled by the huge amount of naivity regarding the perceived peacefulness of a space-faring civilization.
I hate to break it to you people, but our civilization has been on a near-constant rise in the last 4-5 thousand years because we are, as a species, lazy, greedy, violent bastards. These three characteristics have been the driving force behind the technological and economical development which resulted in such advanced and rich societies which could support artists and intelligentsia to create all the wonderful and peaceful art.
If a species is peaceful and content, it will never rise to a civilized level, because if you are content to eating leafs off a tree and hiding from the predators, you will never need agriculture, housing, etc.
No uncivilized species could ever be peaceful. Nature is a dangerous place.
At any rate, if people were lazy, we would never have started agriculture, which is much, much more labour-intense than hunting and gathering. Greed isn't quite right; Humans are tribal, but naturally share within their groupings. As for violence, humans are no more or less violent than other animals. I think your claims of bastardy are overstating matters.
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 08:23:07 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
I cannot think of a single reason why a machine AI would have a survival instinct, so i am not concerned about meeting them. If we were going to encounter machine "AI," we just as likely already did, in the form of von Neumann-style machines that have come and gone.
If machines reproduced with some kind of a genetic algorithm, then survival instinct should be among the very first things selected for.
Machines don't reproduce with genetic algorithms. They are built.
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 08:39:17 AM
I think your claims of bastardy are overstating matters.
Yes, if you compare it to the other animals, but I was arguing against Josq's perception on humanity as 6 billion hippies.
Your point about agriculture supports my point about greed. As for laziness, I thought of various inventions, even in agriculture.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 06:17:09 AM
I find it very bizzare that someone so smart can come to such an unlikely conclusion.
I think its quite a given that the opposite is true. Any aliens we encounter will be peaceful.
Just imagine if somehow we are out exploring space today (impossible but...yeah) and we stumble across a alien civilization. Are we going to go all Independance Day? Of course not. The press is bad enough when the military kills a few Arabs let alone wiping out an entire civilization.
It would be an amazing discovery which changes the way we look at the universe. We aren't going to destroy them just for the hell of it.
And thats our far from perfect modern civilization which still has a lot of the violent animal in us. Starflight is a few hundred years of development out of our reach at least- either we continue to become less violent or we destroy ourselves before we get anywhere.
Just imagine if spaceships were freely available today. There would be bound to be some nutter who decides to smash into earth at relativistic speeds.
Analogy to the past- doesn't work.
People say 'yeah but Earth has resources, the aliens will want those!'- not really.
Earth is a insignificant remote little skerry which is damn difficult to land on. We're the Faroe Islands (only relocated to the middle of the Indian ocean or something), not the Americas. If the aliens want resources they can get them far far easier in space itself with asteroids and comets and the like.
Our track record is fairly violent, both to people and animals. MAD may have caused a cooling off of hostilities among the most advanced societies, but MAD would probably go away in this scenario. It is very possible that anyone visiting us will be far advanced and view us as indifferently as we view animals, but then we have a sample size of one of species that can put themselves in space, and that species hunts all manner of other animals for sport.
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 08:42:34 AM
Machines don't reproduce with genetic algorithms. They are built.
Right now they're not. It's possible that in the future they would be able to make replicas of themselves all on their own.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 07:38:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 07:31:08 AM
Maybe. What I am saying is that in our core we are a pushy competitive race, and this is exactly what built our civilization. This recipe seems to be far the most likely to result in a space-faring civilization, making peaceful coexistent with them highly unlikely.
Name a species which isn't competitive though. Competition is the natural order of things.
Peace is what made our civilization- rather than just playing by the same old rules of throwing pointy sticks around someone thought longer term about farming.
A species which remains as violent as cavemen would destroy itself long before it gets anywhere near space (if indeed if ever does get anywhere to begin with. And its likely they wouldn;t)
Also, don't underestimate just how damn big space is.
The transition to farming likely lead to more violence not less.
Seriously. Let's assume a couple of things:
1. No matter the race, the cost of exploring out of galaxy would be extremely expensive, so
2. The Aliens are only doing it for profit (to find new resources, new living space, etc etc.); ergo. Assuming also,
3. That the aliens find anything they need here (other than slave labour though, I don't think we have much left to offer anybody, then,
4. Assuming they are more technologically advanced than us, then they will probably fight us to get what they want.
The Star Trek notion that they are just exploring around hoping to find other peaceful races and form a Federation is hogwash.
The other thing is, I don't think this will ever happen anyways. The closest thing I imagine happening is us stumbling on a primitive, aggressive, Alien Movie type alien someday , somewhere.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freewebs.com%2Ftyranid123%2F1.jpg&hash=a7da9317d1216b07569c13829dd5d1d95a330303)
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 06:17:09 AM
I find it very bizzare that someone so smart can come to such an unlikely conclusion.
I think its quite a given that the opposite is true. Any aliens we encounter will be peaceful.
Just imagine if somehow we are out exploring space today (impossible but...yeah) and we stumble across a alien civilization. Are we going to go all Independance Day? Of course not. The press is bad enough when the military kills a few Arabs let alone wiping out an entire civilization.
It would be an amazing discovery which changes the way we look at the universe. We aren't going to destroy them just for the hell of it.
And thats our far from perfect modern civilization which still has a lot of the violent animal in us. Starflight is a few hundred years of development out of our reach at least- either we continue to become less violent or we destroy ourselves before we get anywhere.
Just imagine if spaceships were freely available today. There would be bound to be some nutter who decides to smash into earth at relativistic speeds.
This assumes that aliens have the same thought processes as humans, which may not necessarily be the case. Imagine your example, except that we stumble across a colony of space ants on some remote planet. Now there's a lot less stigma attached to destroying them. And if sufficiently advanced aliens stumble upon us right now, they might see that we can build shit and have social structures just like ants, but they won't necessarily see us as their equals.
It all depends on who finds who first. Whichever race finds the other first will probably have a vast technological edge. If aliens find us first, we're screwed. A meeting between the strong and the weak seldom ends well for the weak.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 26, 2010, 09:20:09 AM
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 06:17:09 AM
I find it very bizzare that someone so smart can come to such an unlikely conclusion.
I think its quite a given that the opposite is true. Any aliens we encounter will be peaceful.
Just imagine if somehow we are out exploring space today (impossible but...yeah) and we stumble across a alien civilization. Are we going to go all Independance Day? Of course not. The press is bad enough when the military kills a few Arabs let alone wiping out an entire civilization.
It would be an amazing discovery which changes the way we look at the universe. We aren't going to destroy them just for the hell of it.
And thats our far from perfect modern civilization which still has a lot of the violent animal in us. Starflight is a few hundred years of development out of our reach at least- either we continue to become less violent or we destroy ourselves before we get anywhere.
Just imagine if spaceships were freely available today. There would be bound to be some nutter who decides to smash into earth at relativistic speeds.
This assumes that aliens have the same thought processes as humans, which may not necessarily be the case. Imagine your example, except that we stumble across a colony of space ants on some remote planet. Now there's a lot less stigma attached to destroying them. And if sufficiently advanced aliens stumble upon us right now, they might see that we can build shit and have social structures just like ants, but they won't necessarily see us as their equals.
Some ants have fungus farms, domesticated aphids, wars, slaves. If we ran into a neolithic, insectoid species that could do all that (and were obviously sentient unlike ants) on another planet with something we wanted, would we be nice to them? Doubtful.
I am watching V right now, so I don't get how people think that humans are naive about this shit. We would totally know that they were up to something.
No need to park their big ass ships right on top of every single city otherwise!
Quote from: Berkut on April 26, 2010, 09:45:26 AM
I am watching V right now, so I don't get how people think that humans are naive about this shit. We would totally know that they were up to something.
No need to park their big ass ships right on top of every single city otherwise!
Old V or the shitty new V?
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 08:57:26 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 08:42:34 AM
Machines don't reproduce with genetic algorithms. They are built.
Right now they're not. It's possible that in the future they would be able to make replicas of themselves all on their own.
Even so, they'd still be building each other. Why bring genetic algorithms into it at all?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 08:57:51 AM
The transition to farming likely lead to more violence not less.
Doubtful.
The entire point of it is you don't have to run out and kill a deer every other day.
QuoteThis assumes that aliens have the same thought processes as humans, which may not necessarily be the case.
Which is sort of the problem with the idea of hostile aliens.
Too many ifs and maybes.
It could be that the aliens find the way we look very offensive and so decide to blast us out of existance.
It could be.
But in lieu of anything else we have to work with what we've got and the odds of that are very remote.
QuoteImagine your example, except that we stumble across a colony of space ants on some remote planet. Now there's a lot less stigma attached to destroying them. And if sufficiently advanced aliens stumble upon us right now, they might see that we can build shit and have social structures just like ants, but they won't necessarily see us as their equals.
Ah the old ants at the picnic thing.
Intelligant life is probally rare.
Sure, we've only got one solar system to go off with certainty but as far as we know there's only existed intelligant life on one planet for a fraction of its lifetime- including a large chunk of that with life.
And if we lived in the Star Trek galaxy where are the radio transmissions from Tau Ceti?
No it seems intelligant life at the least is rare (I would say life in general too but we won't know that for a while so its just guessing on my part)
So. Lets use the ants analogy properly. Or realistically anyway. Ants at a picnic is dumb. So, scientists discover a bunch of ants on a pacific island. They would just destroy them without a second thought, plonk down their equipment on top of their ant hills, etc...
....well....no....but...anyway. Assume yes.
Except these ants aren't just any ants on a remote pacific island. They're a entirely new and unique species of ant. A species of ant which lives in ant cities, has a ant library, throws ant spears and is experimenting with crude ant boats.
Clearly they're primitive ants. They're our inferior. We could smash them without a second thought if we wanted to. But would we?
No. This is an amazing discovery. Sure, they're nothing to us but they're quite amazing nonetheless. They're showing potential. A very interesting and very unique thing to study.
For scientists to wipe out a new species of normal ant would get them in major hot water. To harm these ones...they ought to be shot.
QuoteSeriously. Let's assume a couple of things:
1. No matter the race, the cost of exploring out of galaxy would be extremely expensive, so
2. The Aliens are only doing it for profit (to find new resources, new living space, etc etc.); ergo. Assuming also,
3. That the aliens find anything they need here (other than slave labour though, I don't think we have much left to offer anybody, then,
4. Assuming they are more technologically advanced than us, then they will probably fight us to get what they want.
The Star Trek notion that they are just exploring around hoping to find other peaceful races and form a Federation is hogwash.
Well....
Firstly- I think that aliens would just be exploring around. A species that has mastered inter-stellar flight is post-scarcity. Its members probally live for millenia and want something exciting to do. Why not explore?
Assuming though somehow they remain freakishly un socially advanced....There's nothing they could possibly want on Earth. Even in our solar system there's far more resources out there in the asteroid belt which they can get at far easier. And there's a bunch of other solar systems out there without needing to care about this one.
If they did turn out to be mega dicks who decide to wipe us out for no reason though then I doubt they'd bother fighting. They'd just wave their magic want and watch us vanish in a puff of smoke.
Quote
The other thing is, I don't think this will ever happen anyways. The closest thing I imagine happening is us stumbling on a primitive, aggressive, Alien Movie type alien someday , somewhere.
Agreed.
Aliens are Gods or Cavemen.
If they were Gods they'd have been here already or we would see stars being thrown about the galaxy in a clearly artifical way and all sorts of crazyness.
So...yeah. Aliens are likely to be violent. But only because they're cavemen (or cave squid or whatever).
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 08:44:28 AM
Your point about agriculture supports my point about greed. As for laziness, I thought of various inventions, even in agriculture.
Not really. My point about agriculture and yours about greed are unrelated. And while there have been significant advances in agriculture, the fact of the matter is that it is a 24-hour job, whereas a family of hunter-gatherers in fertile land can easily feed themselves with an hour or two of labour every day. If humans were truly, fundamentally lazy, agriculture would never have happened.
They would still be subjects of observation and experiments to be used at our whim, not considered in any way our equals.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 08:57:51 AM
The transition to farming likely lead to more violence not less.
Doubtful.
The entire point of it is you don't have to run out and kill a deer every other day.
Indeed. You had to kill animals constantly, to keep them from eating your crops. And then, when your population grew too large for the area, you had to kill your neighbor to take his fields.
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 09:53:08 AM
Even so, they'd still be building each other. Why bring genetic algorithms into it at all?
Genetic diversity could be a deliberate design feature. If you're going to build robots that could replicate themselves, then you're probably doing it because they're going to be left in a remote environment. In that case, you may also design some diversity with a random component into it, as part of the adaptive algorithm.
Way too many ifs.
Aliens could be so advanced as to just observe us as lab pets, and we wouldn't even know about them.
They could be beings we can barely percieve (different molecular structures and densities, for example) and we could be sharing a planet with them without even knowing.
They could be microscopic.
Maybe they cannot even "think" like we do, but able to percieve/change things in a way we can't even fathom.
Maybe they'll look just like us (and then we could have an old-fashioned war).
Impossible to tell. Maybe Humans will just be terrified of it all and try to kill all aliens.
We'll only know when it happens.
This is the way to great Aliens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkp-MI5hxVw
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 10:04:07 AM
Indeed. You had to kill animals constantly, to keep them from eating your crops. And then, when your population grew too large for the area, you had to kill your neighbor to take his fields.
You had cats and dogs to keep animals off your crops.
As for killing your neighbour and taking his fields- in a civilized society this is less common than a wild society.
For 'wild' humans you see a guy you don't know in your land- holy cow, kill him, he's after your women. No questions.
In a settled society though....sure, it happens. But its not such a given. He could just be your neighbour passing by on his way to market.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 08:57:51 AM
The transition to farming likely lead to more violence not less.
Doubtful.
The entire point of it is you don't have to run out and kill a deer every other day.
QuoteThis assumes that aliens have the same thought processes as humans, which may not necessarily be the case.
Which is sort of the problem with the idea of hostile aliens.
Too many ifs and maybes.
It could be that the aliens find the way we look very offensive and so decide to blast us out of existance.
It could be.
But in lieu of anything else we have to work with what we've got and the odds of that are very remote.
QuoteImagine your example, except that we stumble across a colony of space ants on some remote planet. Now there's a lot less stigma attached to destroying them. And if sufficiently advanced aliens stumble upon us right now, they might see that we can build shit and have social structures just like ants, but they won't necessarily see us as their equals.
Ah the old ants at the picnic thing.
Intelligant life is probally rare.
Sure, we've only got one solar system to go off with certainty but as far as we know there's only existed intelligant life on one planet for a fraction of its lifetime- including a large chunk of that with life.
And if we lived in the Star Trek galaxy where are the radio transmissions from Tau Ceti?
No it seems intelligant life at the least is rare (I would say life in general too but we won't know that for a while so its just guessing on my part)
So. Lets use the ants analogy properly. Or realistically anyway. Ants at a picnic is dumb. So, scientists discover a bunch of ants on a pacific island. They would just destroy them without a second thought, plonk down their equipment on top of their ant hills, etc...
....well....no....but...anyway. Assume yes.
Except these ants aren't just any ants on a remote pacific island. They're a entirely new and unique species of ant. A species of ant which lives in ant cities, has a ant library, throws ant spears and is experimenting with crude ant boats.
Clearly they're primitive ants. They're our inferior. We could smash them without a second thought if we wanted to. But would we?
No. This is an amazing discovery. Sure, they're nothing to us but they're quite amazing nonetheless. They're showing potential. A very interesting and very unique thing to study.
For scientists to wipe out a new species of normal ant would get them in major hot water. To harm these ones...they ought to be shot.
The universe (and galaxy) is phenomenally large. If interstellar travel is practical with some type of alien technology, we are probably not going to be special because there are so many planets with some life. Even if only 1 in a million stars has something approaching intelligent life, that means there are about 400,000 stars with life in the Milky Way alone. And right now, we only really know about 1 star, and that star does support life.
If intergallactic travel is feasible, then we are even more insignificant, because there A LOT of galaxies (not sure on that number, but know it is big).
Quote from: alfred russel
If intergallactic travel is feasible, then we are even more insignificant, because there A LOT of galaxies (not sure on that number, but know it is big).
Latest estimates point to at least 500,000,000,000 galaxies.
Each with billions of star systems.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 10:04:07 AM
Indeed. You had to kill animals constantly, to keep them from eating your crops. And then, when your population grew too large for the area, you had to kill your neighbor to take his fields.
You had cats and dogs to keep animals off your crops.
As for killing your neighbour and taking his fields- in a civilized society this is less common than a wild society.
For 'wild' humans you see a guy you don't know in your land- holy cow, kill him, he's after your women. No questions.
In a settled society though....sure, it happens. But its not such a given. He could just be your neighbor passing by on his way to market.
IIRC archaeology records a great increase in the rate of death by violence after the introduction of agriculture.
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 09:58:14 AM
The entire point of it is you don't have to run out and kill a deer every other day.
But you do need to watch over a now sedendtary population, you need to guard initial surpluses so you can eat when not harvesting, you have higher population densities, you have fewer social leveling mechanisms, you create a stronger us vs them mentality.
While not the peaceful bliss imagined earlier, foragers simply do not have as many means of protracted and systematic violence as farmers.
Now, the above is humans - but you seemed to argue that horticulture/agricultural shifts do not lead to more violence, when it seems they do.
And for the record, hunting (your "killing a deer every other day") is a cooperative activity, reducing tensions, the sharing of meat helps sooth interpersonal conflicts, and all in all seems to be a social positive...
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 10:18:40 AM
IIRC archaeology records a great increase in the rate of death by violence after the introduction of agriculture.
Sadly, I have to kind of agree with the ELS putz here. Not just archaeology, peoples have moved to horticulture/agriculture in historical times and this has been noted.
Quote from: Martim Silva on April 26, 2010, 10:16:46 AM
Latest estimates point to at least 500,000,000,000 galaxies.
Each with billions of star systems.
Sagan - BILLI-YUNS!
Reporter - How do you spell billi-yuns?
(anybody who gets this comic strip reference is official old)
Quote
The universe (and galaxy) is phenomenally large. If interstellar travel is practical with some type of alien technology, we are probably not going to be special because there are so many planets with some life. Even if only 1 in a million stars has something approaching intelligent life, that means there are about 400,000 stars with life in the Milky Way alone. And right now, we only really know about 1 star, and that star does support life.
If intergallactic travel is feasible, then we are even more insignificant, because there A LOT of galaxies (not sure on that number, but know it is big).
Where are they then?
The idea that aliens would suddenly show up with a comparable technology level to us (i.e. 3000bc-3000ad) exactly at the modern day is built on 'if'.
And there's no evidence for any godlike aliens nearby....so I would tend towards us being freakishly lucky.
QuoteIIRC archaeology records a great increase in the rate of death by violence after the introduction of agriculture.
Archaeology records in general also increase greatly for settled societies.
There's the factor of there being more people in general, more developed religion and burial, etc...
QuoteWhile not the peaceful bliss imagined earlier, foragers simply do not have as many means of protracted and systematic violence as farmers.
Its variable.
Maybe they're lucky, the first people on some little island with plentiful stupid game and lovely weather and all is perfect hippy paradice land.
Maybe they're in a area going through a bad drought and a over population problem (much easier to happen when people are playing by the same rules as animals). Then things get nasty.
Quote
Now, the above is humans - but you seemed to argue that horticulture/agricultural shifts do not lead to more violence, when it seems they do.
I don't believe anything is the case really if we're talking pre-civilization.
Agricultural development all through history I've no comment on either. I don't see how that could directly affect things other than temporarily relieving population pressures.
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 10:06:10 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 09:53:08 AM
Even so, they'd still be building each other. Why bring genetic algorithms into it at all?
Genetic diversity could be a deliberate design feature. If you're going to build robots that could replicate themselves, then you're probably doing it because they're going to be left in a remote environment. In that case, you may also design some diversity with a random component into it, as part of the adaptive algorithm.
It sounds like a terrible idea, and something that a machine intelligence would avoid at all costs.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi00.rnhh.de%2Feu%2Fshared-images%2Ffilmdotcom%2Fassets%2Frn%2Fimg%2F4%2F9%2F9%2F0%2F30560994-30560997-large.jpg&hash=19607a0dfee6c3be9b8abbbaf3132bf3672b2b1f)
Hail Draconia!
Quote from: Tyr on April 26, 2010, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 10:04:07 AM
Indeed. You had to kill animals constantly, to keep them from eating your crops. And then, when your population grew too large for the area, you had to kill your neighbor to take his fields.
You had cats and dogs to keep animals off your crops.
To some extent, but they still required supervision.
QuoteAs for killing your neighbour and taking his fields- in a civilized society this is less common than a wild society.
Not really. The scale changes, but it still happens. We call it war.
QuoteFor 'wild' humans you see a guy you don't know in your land- holy cow, kill him, he's after your women. No questions.
Obviously not. Early human groups managed to exchange genes, and while no doubt they killed each other, they also coexisted.
Quote from: Martim Silva on April 26, 2010, 10:10:16 AM
They could be beings we can barely percieve (different molecular structures and densities, for example) and we could be sharing a planet with them without even knowing.
They could be microscopic.
Chemistry and physics do place some limiters on what they can be and do.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 09:34:55 AM
Some ants have fungus farms, domesticated aphids, wars, slaves. If we ran into a neolithic, insectoid species that could do all that (and were obviously sentient unlike ants) on another planet with something we wanted, would we be nice to them? Doubtful.
Are you retarded? (yes)
Large insects are physiologically impossible.
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 11:47:27 AM
Are you retarded? (yes)
Large insects are physiologically impossible.
Not really.
I love metanarratives about human nature!
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 11:47:27 AM
Are you retarded? (yes)
Large insects are physiologically impossible.
Not really.
Yes really. The process of diffusion is universal. Insects on Earth live with the same surface area to volume restrictions as insects on Vega 4.
What about giant insects that, you know, lived on Earth?
I have always maintained that we should avoid revealing ourselves to alien civilizations unless it is to conquer them in one fell swoop.
I have never heard about Hawking being any good at politics though. His predictions in the field hold little value. Isn't he a physicist?
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 11:58:57 AM
Not really.
If Neil is omnipotent, can he invent a Fate so trollish even Neil falls for the troll? :hmm:
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 12:08:43 PM
Yes really. The process of diffusion is universal. Insects on Earth live with the same surface area to volume restrictions as insects on Vega 4.
It's easy to change the oxygen concentration in the atmosphere or in the sea. However, past a certain size, active respiration is required.
I think the point here is that you're not thinking hard enough. Try being less stupid, and your problems will become much more manageable.
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 01:01:36 PM
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
It transcended material existence.
Here's a thought: rather than greed, is it possible the technological innovation shown by humans is driven by vanity? I'd see it as a sign that we perceive ourselves to be the peak of evolution, rather than a stopping point, so we devise more and more methods for forcing our environment to suit us rather than the opposite way around... .
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 26, 2010, 01:11:29 PM
Here's a thought: rather than greed, is it possible the technological innovation shown by humans is driven by vanity? I'd see it as a sign that we perceive ourselves to be the peak of evolution, rather than a stopping point, so we devise more and more methods for forcing our environment to suit us rather than the opposite way around... .
Have you seen young people today? We ARE the peak of evolution.
Quote from: The Brain on April 26, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 26, 2010, 01:11:29 PM
Here's a thought: rather than greed, is it possible the technological innovation shown by humans is driven by vanity? I'd see it as a sign that we perceive ourselves to be the peak of evolution, rather than a stopping point, so we devise more and more methods for forcing our environment to suit us rather than the opposite way around... .
Have you seen young people today? We ARE the peak of evolution.
I rest my case. ^_^
Quote from: The Brain on April 26, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Have you seen young people today? We ARE the peak of evolution.
:hug:
Also the idea of changing oneself to suit one's environment is morally repugnant. Should our primary duty in life be to adopt a pose?
Quote from: grumbler on April 26, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
I find this argument over something no one could possibly know to be most amusing. I especially enjoy the entirely uninformed speculation about how likely various completely hypothetical scenarios are.
Do carry on. *pops popcorn*
It's Hawking's bleated april fool's joke. :glare:
Quote from: Martim Silva on April 26, 2010, 10:10:16 AM
Way too many ifs.
Aliens could be so advanced as to just observe us as lab pets, and we wouldn't even know about them.
They could be beings we can barely percieve (different molecular structures and densities, for example) and we could be sharing a planet with them without even knowing.
They could be microscopic.
Maybe they cannot even "think" like we do, but able to percieve/change things in a way we can't even fathom.
Maybe they'll look just like us (and then we could have an old-fashioned war).
Impossible to tell. Maybe Humans will just be terrified of it all and try to kill all aliens.
We'll only know when it happens.
they will not, however, be communists
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 12:43:25 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 12:08:43 PM
Yes really. The process of diffusion is universal. Insects on Earth live with the same surface area to volume restrictions as insects on Vega 4.
It's easy to change the oxygen concentration in the atmosphere or in the sea. However, past a certain size, active respiration is required.
Yeah, which answers Grey Fox's question--the theory is that the oxygen concentration at the time they lived was higher, which allowed then to attain a greater body size.
QuoteI think the point here is that you're not thinking hard enough. Try being less stupid, and your problems will become much more manageable.
If he was less stupid, he might have noticed that Tim's post he was responding to didn't mention size in the first place.
Quote from: Martim Silva on April 26, 2010, 10:10:16 AM
They could be beings we can barely percieve (different molecular structures and densities, for example) and we could be sharing a planet with them without even knowing.
We'll only know when it happens.
And how do you propose that we would suddenly *know* this? :yeahright:
What is it?
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 01:01:36 PM
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
It was no Sim Earth. Why it wasn't even Sim Farm.
Movies and internet tells us that aliens are evil. If/when we find them, we must attack first, they will do the same if they find us first.
So, are you guys saying that sentient insects like in Starship troopers are not possible?
What about biotechnology, like organic lasers and shit?
Quote from: Siege on April 26, 2010, 03:35:59 PM
So, are you guys saying that sentient insects like in Starship troopers are not possible?
What about biotechnology, like organic lasers and shit?
I know for a fact that an organic battering ram is possible.
Batten down the hatches!
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 01:01:36 PM
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
It was no Sim Earth. Why it wasn't even Sim Farm.
No, no...Spore, I remember now. What ever happened to that?
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 03:54:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 01:01:36 PM
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
It was no Sim Earth. Why it wasn't even Sim Farm.
No, no...Spore, I remember now. What ever happened to that?
It was kind of meh in the end.
Quote from: Barrister on April 26, 2010, 03:57:34 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 03:54:42 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 01:01:36 PM
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
It was no Sim Earth. Why it wasn't even Sim Farm.
No, no...Spore, I remember now. What ever happened to that?
It was kind of meh in the end.
That's what she said.
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 03:54:42 PM
No, no...Spore, I remember now. What ever happened to that?
Giant letdown, from what I recall.
What if a giant race of turtle-men invaded the Earth?
Quote from: Jaron on April 26, 2010, 04:48:05 PM
What if a giant race of turtle-men invaded the Earth?
The giaant ants of Brest-Litovsk would save us!
Quote from: Siege on April 26, 2010, 03:35:59 PM
So, are you guys saying that sentient insects like in Starship troopers are not possible?
Something insect-like that is large would have to have a very different structure, much closer to that of other large animals. Also, the relatively thin legs wouldn't be able to support a body that, because it is covered in armour, would be very heavy. Virtually every system would have to be much more complex.
Quote from: garbon on April 26, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 01:01:36 PM
What ever happened to that game? You know the one were you were supposed to build alien life from scratch and evolve; and was the most hyped game in Christendom?
It was no Sim Earth. Why it wasn't even Sim Farm.
Sim Earth. Now there's a game I'd love to see updated. There aren't many programs I can run to simulate a prehistoric Earth.
Sim Earth was one of the best games ever. :wub:
Spore was awful.
It was:
1) Eat meat or plant
2) Kill or befriend other species
3) Kill or befriend other tribes
4) Kill or befriend other cities
5) "Explore" the galaxy
SNOOZE
Quote from: Josephus on April 26, 2010, 03:54:42 PM
No, no...Spore, I remember now. What ever happened to that?
And I was describing what Spore wasn't. :mellow:
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 05:20:22 PM
Sim Earth. Now there's a game I'd love to see updated. There aren't many programs I can run to simulate a prehistoric Earth.
Spore had originally been marketed as a bigger and better Sim Earth, but somehow they left it out. :(
Quote from: Jaron on April 26, 2010, 05:42:31 PM
Spore was awful.
It was:
1) Eat meat or plant
2) Kill or befriend other species
3) Kill or befriend other tribes
4) Kill or befriend other cities
5) "Explore" the galaxy
SNOOZE
And you didn't really get to explore, seeing as how every few minutes you had to go stop pirates or save a planet from an ecological disaster.
While it is a virtual certainty that alien civilisations have existed and will exist in the Milky Way, the odds of two technological civilisations sharing the same timeframe are vanishingly small.
As for the logic of "peaceful aliens", I am spectacularly unconvinced by it. Colonisation or the hunt for resources seem to me to be the two most likely reasons for interstellar travel. And if it is sublight travel, given the cost and resources that would involve, an alien species could not afford to be nice.
Quote from: Agelastus on April 26, 2010, 05:57:49 PM
While it is a virtual certainty that alien civilisations have existed and will exist in the Milky Way, the odds of two technological civilisations sharing the same timeframe are vanishingly small.
As for the logic of "peaceful aliens", I am spectacularly unconvinced by it. Colonisation or the hunt for resources seem to me to be the two most likely reasons for interstellar travel. And if it is sublight travel, given the cost and resources that would involve, an alien species could not afford to be nice.
I don't understand you space Columbus freaks. What does the Earth have that makes it desirable enough to spend 10,000 years traveling on a space ship? Really, unobtainium doesn't exist. Second generation and greater star systems with heavy elements are a dime a dozen. Avatar lied to you.
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on April 26, 2010, 05:57:49 PM
While it is a virtual certainty that alien civilisations have existed and will exist in the Milky Way, the odds of two technological civilisations sharing the same timeframe are vanishingly small.
As for the logic of "peaceful aliens", I am spectacularly unconvinced by it. Colonisation or the hunt for resources seem to me to be the two most likely reasons for interstellar travel. And if it is sublight travel, given the cost and resources that would involve, an alien species could not afford to be nice.
I don't understand you space Columbus freaks. What does the Earth have that makes it desirable enough to spend 10,000 years traveling on a space ship? Really, unobtainium doesn't exist. Avatar lied to you.
Lets not exaggerate, a fusion powered space ship would cut journey times to a few decades. Throw in cryostasis or a simply long lived species and it's certainly doable.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 06:52:02 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on April 26, 2010, 05:57:49 PM
While it is a virtual certainty that alien civilisations have existed and will exist in the Milky Way, the odds of two technological civilisations sharing the same timeframe are vanishingly small.
As for the logic of "peaceful aliens", I am spectacularly unconvinced by it. Colonisation or the hunt for resources seem to me to be the two most likely reasons for interstellar travel. And if it is sublight travel, given the cost and resources that would involve, an alien species could not afford to be nice.
I don't understand you space Columbus freaks. What does the Earth have that makes it desirable enough to spend 10,000 years traveling on a space ship? Really, unobtainium doesn't exist. Avatar lied to you.
Lets not exaggerate, a fusion powered space ship would cut journey times to a few decades. Throw in cryostasis or a simply long lived species and it's certainly doable.
:mellow:
Yeah, let's not exaggerate. The galaxy is merely 100,000 light years in diameter. At warp 10 that'd only take five years (i saw it on voyager).
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 06:47:23 PM
I don't understand you space Columbus freaks. What does the Earth have that makes it desirable enough to spend 10,000 years traveling on a space ship? Really, unobtainium doesn't exist. Second generation and greater star systems with heavy elements are a dime a dozen. Avatar lied to you.
I notice you rubbished the resources part of my post, without touching the colonisation part.
We have an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere. If you can provide evidence that every second star possesses such a world, I will raise my estimate for how likely "peaceful aliens" are. At the moment, we simply don't know how rare such worlds are.
Maybe I shouldn't have edited out the parts of my post that discussed the possibility of methane breathers, who would not want the Earth.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 06:52:02 PM
Lets not exaggerate, a fusion powered space ship would cut journey times to a few decades. Throw in cryostasis or a simply long lived species and it's certainly doable.
A journey to Alpha Centauri perhaps. Highly unlikely that there are any advanced aliens anywhere near that close.
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 26, 2010, 06:52:02 PM
Quote from: Fate on April 26, 2010, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on April 26, 2010, 05:57:49 PM
While it is a virtual certainty that alien civilisations have existed and will exist in the Milky Way, the odds of two technological civilisations sharing the same timeframe are vanishingly small.
As for the logic of "peaceful aliens", I am spectacularly unconvinced by it. Colonisation or the hunt for resources seem to me to be the two most likely reasons for interstellar travel. And if it is sublight travel, given the cost and resources that would involve, an alien species could not afford to be nice.
I don't understand you space Columbus freaks. What does the Earth have that makes it desirable enough to spend 10,000 years traveling on a space ship? Really, unobtainium doesn't exist. Avatar lied to you.
Lets not exaggerate, a fusion powered space ship would cut journey times to a few decades. Throw in cryostasis or a simply long lived species and it's certainly doable.
:mellow:
Yeah, let's not exaggerate. The galaxy is merely 100,000 light years in diameter. At warp 10 that'd only take five years (i saw it on voyager).
Why would anyone travel across the entire galaxy at once. You'd be travel to the nearest star, which is a few light years away.
Quote from: Agelastus on April 26, 2010, 05:57:49 PM
While it is a virtual certainty that alien civilisations have existed and will exist in the Milky Way, the odds of two technological civilisations sharing the same timeframe are vanishingly small.
As for the logic of "peaceful aliens", I am spectacularly unconvinced by it. Colonisation or the hunt for resources seem to me to be the two most likely reasons for interstellar travel. And if it is sublight travel, given the cost and resources that would involve, an alien species could not afford to be nice.
'The hunt for resources' really isn't that important. Colonization of a modern, industrialized planet would be rather difficult.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 26, 2010, 12:12:50 PM
What about giant insects that, you know, lived on Earth?
Why Were Prehistoric Insects Huge? (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070806112323.htm)
Quote from: Neil on April 26, 2010, 08:03:12 PM
'The hunt for resources' really isn't that important. Colonization of a modern, industrialized planet would be rather difficult.
Indeed. There are many ways to get resources that would be cheaper and more reliable than wandering around the galaxy trying to conquer alien species. Hell, limiting demand would be cheaper, one would think.