From The Economist
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15810902&source=most_commented
You say Lwów, I say Lviv
A guide to Eastern Europe's most tedious arguments
Apr 1st 2010 | From The Economist online
LAST week’s column dealt with the arcane name squabble between Macedonia (aka FYROM) and Greece. This piece was soon the most-commented on the Economist’s website. That was no thanks to the brilliance of the prose and the lucidity of argument. The subject was one of those issues that attracts bigots, scaremongers and polemicists, with a vanishingly tangential relationship to truth, logic and courtesy.
The article described the row as “the most tedious dispute in the Balkans”. The ex-communist region sets a high standard in such matters, so the epithet is not to be bestowed lightly. Here is an outsider’s guide to a few of the other rows. All the arguments below are a) historically plausible and b) strike most outsiders as quite mad.
Moldova/Romania A sizeable number of Romanians believe that what is today called the Republic of Moldova is nothing more than a lost province of real Romania, snatched by Stalin out of spite (along with northern Bukovina, which went to Ukraine). The sooner this “pretend Moldova” rejoins Romania the better. Handing out passports to as many Moldovans as possible brings this nearer.
Bulgaria/Macedonia From a certain Bulgarian-nationalist viewpoint, the idea of a discrete Macedonian ethnicity or language is a nonsense—rather like defining “Texan” as an ethnicity in America. Yugoslav Macedonia was a historical accident, and the sooner the detritus joins Bulgaria the better. After that, it will be time to liberate the brother-Slavs of northern Greece.
Slovakia/Hungary According to hardline Slovak nationalists, the whole idea of a Hungarian ethnic minority in the country is absurd. These people (many of whom are Gypsies anyway) should shut up and get on with being Slovaks: ie, speaking Slovak and thinking like Slovaks. Any other behaviour is a sign that they are still imprisoned by their imperial mindset. If they don’t like living in Slovakia, they should go back to Hungary (where, incidentally, the Slovak-speaking minority has dwindled to nothing—proving that it is the Magyars who are the real ethno-nationalists).
Lithuania/Poland Not many people realise this, but most of the people speaking Polish and Belarussian in the area in and around Vilnius are not really Slavs but polonised Lithuanians, the legacy of centuries of forced assimilation. That is a terrible fate, so the right (and kindest) thing to do is to depolonise these people and relithuanianise them. A good way to start is to make sure that they do not get trapped into using foreign Polish letters and silly spellings when writing their names. It is Adomas Mickevicius, not Adam Mickiewicz. Let nobody forget it.
Ukraine/Poland Anyone who spells the capital of Galicia as Lwów is a Polish nationalist who bayonets Ukrainian babies for fun. Anyone who says it is spelled Lviv is a Ukrainian fascist who bayonets Polish babies for fun. Anyone who spells it Lvov is a Soviet mass murderer. And anyone who calls it Lemberg is a Nazi. See you in Leopolis for further discussion.
Among the runners-up: “Tatar” is a derogatory and invented name for the inhabitants of modern Tatarstan, who are in fact the descendants of Volga Bulgars. Kievan Rus was not Russian. Any talk of a Ruthenian nation is ill-informed, stupid, possibly mad and the product of Muscovite attempts to split and destroy Ukraine.
Outside pressure has mostly calmed these arguments within formal politics. But on the internet the rows still rage, with tortured facts, arguments and syntax, all mixed with vituperative insults, phoney politeness and seemingly RANDOM Use Of Capital letters. There is a whiff of pyjamas-at-noon, and of people who check their emails in the small hours. Time to get a life?
Note from Alatriste himself: Leopolis? I smell dirty Byzanteens at work :D
Somebody should post that at P'dox OT and see what happens. :lol:
Also see: Danzig/Gdansk.
:lol:
Oh how I would enjoy this part of the world if I wasn't living in it.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 07:47:56 AM
Also see: Danzig/Gdansk.
Does anyone really argue over this? What with the expulsion of all Germans, I thought it was pretty much accepted. (And the Germans feeling guilty about the whole attempted genocide of Poland thing).
Quote from: Faeelin on April 08, 2010, 08:02:31 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 07:47:56 AM
Also see: Danzig/Gdansk.
Does anyone really argue over this? What with the expulsion of all Germans, I thought it was pretty much accepted. (And the Germans feeling guilty about the whole attempted genocide of Poland thing).
They should feel guilty for having failed. More than anybody else, the Nazis are guilty for having subjected the world to Martinus. Other than his parents, I suppose.
Still, a lot of problems would be solved if the old Hohenzollern, Habsburg and Ottoman empires were reconstructed.
Quote from: Alatriste on April 08, 2010, 07:21:04 AM
Kievan Rus was not Russian. Any talk of a Ruthenian nation is ill-informed, stupid, possibly mad and the product of Muscovite attempts to split and destroy Ukraine.
I hear rants on this subject from my wife and her relations often enough. Any historical work or even novel that (somewhat anachronistically) refers to the Rus as "Russian" sends them into a fury.
QuoteThe EU is a more hopeful source of help. It is good at solving problems by being boring. Faced with the prospect of a near-death experience in a meeting room in Brussels, people often discover new possibilities for compromise.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2010, 08:22:24 AM
I hear rants on this subject from my wife and her relations often enough. Any historical work or even novel that (somewhat anachronistically) refers to the Rus as "Russian" sends them into a fury.
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
Anyway, the Ukrainians have only themselves to blame. Fuckers got conquered by ancestors of Martinus, and when they finally managed to free themselves they received heavy Muscovite help.
As for Gdansk/Danzig, eleven pages of archives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gda%C5%84sk) (Lvov/Lviv has one). I rest my case.
I never put 2 & 2 together re: Lemberg = Lviv :Embarrass:
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2010, 10:28:28 AM
I never put 2 & 2 together re: Lemberg = Lviv :Embarrass:
Germans tend to give weird and totally unrelated names to places they occupy.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:22:16 AM
As for Gdansk/Danzig, eleven pages of archives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gda%C5%84sk) (Lvov/Lviv has one). I rest my case.
Some tards fighting on Wikipedia is different from governments making policy based on names.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:33:17 AMGermans tend to give weird and totally unrelated names to places they occupy.
What would be a related name? What does Lviv (or whatever) mean?
Tards fighting on Wikipedia are often representative of the wider government policy where Eastern Europe is concerned.
As for Lvov, call it Löwenburg or something.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2010, 08:22:24 AM
I hear rants on this subject from my wife and her relations often enough. Any historical work or even novel that (somewhat anachronistically) refers to the Rus as "Russian" sends them into a fury.
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
Anyway, the Ukrainians have only themselves to blame. Fuckers got conquered by ancestors of Martinus, and when they finally managed to free themselves they received heavy Muscovite help.
The real problem was earlier - getting creamed by the Mongols.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2010, 08:22:24 AM
I hear rants on this subject from my wife and her relations often enough. Any historical work or even novel that (somewhat anachronistically) refers to the Rus as "Russian" sends them into a fury.
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
"Ruthenian"?
Quote from: Zanza on April 08, 2010, 10:37:06 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:33:17 AMGermans tend to give weird and totally unrelated names to places they occupy.
What would be a related name? What does Lviv (or whatever) mean?
City/Town of Leo IIRC
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2010, 08:22:24 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on April 08, 2010, 07:21:04 AM
Kievan Rus was not Russian. Any talk of a Ruthenian nation is ill-informed, stupid, possibly mad and the product of Muscovite attempts to split and destroy Ukraine.
I hear rants on this subject from my wife and her relations often enough. Any historical work or even novel that (somewhat anachronistically) refers to the Rus as "Russian" sends them into a fury.
Damn straight. Your wife is very wise in such matters.
I know one person from Lviv and he calls it Lviv. I know more East Ukrainians, they call it Lvov.
Charles XII took Lemberg, not some faggity slave name town.
Quote from: Neil on April 08, 2010, 08:11:57 AM
They should feel guilty for having failed. More than anybody else, the Nazis are guilty for having subjected the world to Martinus. Other than his parents, I suppose.
Still, a lot of problems would be solved if the old Hohenzollern, Habsburg and Ottoman empires were reconstructed.
Yeah no shit, the world would be a better place without Martinus.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 08, 2010, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: Neil on April 08, 2010, 08:11:57 AM
They should feel guilty for having failed. More than anybody else, the Nazis are guilty for having subjected the world to Martinus. Other than his parents, I suppose.
Still, a lot of problems would be solved if the old Hohenzollern, Habsburg and Ottoman empires were reconstructed.
Yeah no shit, the world would be a better place without Martinus.
Should have stayed communist.
Quote from: Sahib on April 08, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
"Ruthenian"?
Why the fuck should we use a Latin name for a place where Latin was never even used? Not to mention that "Russia" was used in Latin documents as well to denote Kievan Rus.
I love it! I'd follow the EUOT thread religiously! Is there a Balkan political discussion subforum yet, to get rid of the crazy of the regular OT?
Quote from: Zanza on April 08, 2010, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:22:16 AM
As for Gdansk/Danzig, eleven pages of archives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gda%C5%84sk) (Lvov/Lviv has one). I rest my case.
Some tards fighting on Wikipedia is different from governments making policy based on names.
Without reading it, I assume some of them are the ones who say that Danzig was illegally occupied first by the Germans, and then by the Poles, and should be recognised as the Free City it was before WWII?
Quote from: Alatriste on April 08, 2010, 07:21:04 AM
Ukraine/Poland Anyone who spells the capital of Galicia as Lwów is a Polish nationalist who bayonets Ukrainian babies for fun. Anyone who says it is spelled Lviv is a Ukrainian fascist who bayonets Polish babies for fun. Anyone who spells it Lvov is a Soviet mass murderer. And anyone who calls it Lemberg is a Nazi. See you in Leopolis for further discussion.
Heh - my grandfather was born there.
The key thing to remember is whatever the differences among these people and their spelling of place names, they can always be united under a common cause: kick the crap out of the Jews.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 04:04:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on April 08, 2010, 07:21:04 AM
Ukraine/Poland Anyone who spells the capital of Galicia as Lwów is a Polish nationalist who bayonets Ukrainian babies for fun. Anyone who says it is spelled Lviv is a Ukrainian fascist who bayonets Polish babies for fun. Anyone who spells it Lvov is a Soviet mass murderer. And anyone who calls it Lemberg is a Nazi. See you in Leopolis for further discussion.
Heh - my grandfather was born there.
The key thing to remember is whatever the differences among these people and their spelling of place names, they can always be united under a common cause: kick the crap out of the Jews.
As was my maternal grandmother.
We may be related! :D
More importantly, how did they call the city? :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2010, 04:37:56 PM
More importantly, how did they call the city? :lol:
L'Ouch: "City of Bruised Shins."
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2010, 04:37:56 PM
More importantly, how did they call the city? :lol:
No doubt by whatever name got them beaten the least. ;)
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2010, 04:37:56 PM
More importantly, how did they call the city? :lol:
I forget the Yiddish for: "What a dump; when can we get to America/Canada/Australia/Argentina/Palestine/Hell we'll even take the Dominican Republic"
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2010, 04:32:43 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 04:04:32 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on April 08, 2010, 07:21:04 AM
Ukraine/Poland Anyone who spells the capital of Galicia as Lwów is a Polish nationalist who bayonets Ukrainian babies for fun. Anyone who says it is spelled Lviv is a Ukrainian fascist who bayonets Polish babies for fun. Anyone who spells it Lvov is a Soviet mass murderer. And anyone who calls it Lemberg is a Nazi. See you in Leopolis for further discussion.
Heh - my grandfather was born there.
The key thing to remember is whatever the differences among these people and their spelling of place names, they can always be united under a common cause: kick the crap out of the Jews.
As was my maternal grandmother.
We may be related! :D
I think Guller is from there as well.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 08, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
"Ruthenian"?
Why the fuck should we use a Latin name for a place where Latin was never even used? Not to mention that "Russia" was used in Latin documents as well to denote Kievan Rus.
Cause apparently the natives can't agree.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 05:14:20 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2010, 04:37:56 PM
More importantly, how did they call the city? :lol:
I forget the Yiddish for: "What a dump; when can we get to America/Canada/Australia/Argentina/Palestine/Hell we'll even take the Dominican Republic"
I thought that as far as Ukrainian cities go, L'viv was quite nice? :)
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2010, 05:39:39 PM
I thought that as far as Ukrainian cities go, L'viv was quite nice? :)
It's a nice place to l'visit, but you wouldn't want to lviv there.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2010, 05:43:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2010, 05:39:39 PM
I thought that as far as Ukrainian cities go, L'viv was quite nice? :)
It's a nice place to l'visit, but you wouldn't want to lviv there.
:frusty:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2010, 05:43:39 PM
It's a nice place to l'visit, but you wouldn't want to lviv there.
:lol:
Sorry, but Jewish people are the last ones who should be mentoring others about silly territorial disputes based on obscure historical claims. :P
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
Steppetard and Stepptardite.
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2010, 05:39:39 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2010, 05:14:20 PM
Quote from: The Larch on April 08, 2010, 04:37:56 PM
More importantly, how did they call the city? :lol:
I forget the Yiddish for: "What a dump; when can we get to America/Canada/Australia/Argentina/Palestine/Hell we'll even take the Dominican Republic"
I thought that as far as Ukrainian cities go, L'viv was quite nice? :)
It was Lwow before the war. :P
A sizable part of the population (majority?) was Polish.
Most of them were resettled to Wroclaw (formerly Breslau) after the war.
And you wonder why the region is so fucked up.
Quote from: Viking on April 08, 2010, 05:51:02 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
Steppetard and Stepptardite.
Sorry, but Icelandtards have really no place laughing at other nations. :P
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2010, 05:50:42 PM
Sorry, but Jewish people are the last ones who should be mentoring others about silly territorial disputes based on obscure historical claims. :P
Not so, they have the decency to win their fights.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2010, 06:30:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2010, 05:50:42 PM
Sorry, but Jewish people are the last ones who should be mentoring others about silly territorial disputes based on obscure historical claims. :P
Not so, they have the decency to win their fights.
That's only recently though. The Jews have a long and honourable history of defeat in armed conflict going back to the Assyrians.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2010, 10:09:16 AM
QuoteThe EU is a more hopeful source of help. It is good at solving problems by being boring. Faced with the prospect of a near-death experience in a meeting room in Brussels, people often discover new possibilities for compromise.
:lmfao:
I knew you Yanks (and Rebs too) would love this part... :D
"Talk, talk, talk is better than war, war, war" (Winston S. Churchill)
"Being Boring" :wub:
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2010, 05:54:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 08, 2010, 05:51:02 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
Steppetard and Stepptardite.
Sorry, but Icelandtards have really no place laughing at other nations. :P
What, poland isn't a nation anymore?
Quote from: Viking on April 09, 2010, 05:57:38 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2010, 05:54:30 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 08, 2010, 05:51:02 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
The best part is, there is no other handy adjective in English that could substitute for "something or someone from Kievan Rus".
Steppetard and Stepptardite.
Sorry, but Icelandtards have really no place laughing at other nations. :P
What, poland isn't a nation anymore?
Perhaps Marti considers them to be a tribe of Russians?
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2010, 05:50:42 PM
Sorry, but Jewish people are the last ones who should be mentoring others about silly territorial disputes based on obscure historical claims. :P
When did that happen?
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2010, 05:39:39 PM
I thought that as far as Ukrainian cities go, L'viv was quite nice? :)
Depends on how much of the historic ambiance of the place you can appreciate between beatings. ;)
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 08, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
"Ruthenian"?
Why the fuck should we use a Latin name for a place where Latin was never even used? Not to mention that "Russia" was used in Latin documents as well to denote Kievan Rus.
Well, in the West we still use Latin sometimes because we still have some degree of civilization. That wouldn't apply in Eastern Europe, though, so I don't know why anyone would use it there.
Quote from: dps on April 09, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 08, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
"Ruthenian"?
Why the fuck should we use a Latin name for a place where Latin was never even used? Not to mention that "Russia" was used in Latin documents as well to denote Kievan Rus.
Well, in the West we still use Latin sometimes because we still have some degree of civilization. That wouldn't apply in Eastern Europe, though, so I don't know why anyone would use it there.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2010, 01:34:50 PM
Quote from: dps on April 09, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 08, 2010, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Sahib on April 08, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
"Ruthenian"?
Why the fuck should we use a Latin name for a place where Latin was never even used? Not to mention that "Russia" was used in Latin documents as well to denote Kievan Rus.
Well, in the West we still use Latin sometimes because we still have some degree of civilization. That wouldn't apply in Eastern Europe, though, so I don't know why anyone would use it there.
I hereby propose that anyone who partakes in that silly 'quoting someone who screwed up the coding' meme have the word 'Retard" added to their title.
Quote from: Malthus on April 09, 2010, 02:07:59 PM
Fuck you.
I hereby propose that anyone who partakes in that silly 'quoting someone who screwed up the coding' meme have the word 'Retard" added to their title.