Not sure how the hell I missed this, but thankfully Camille was nice enough to make sure I saw it:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/04/08/bow/index.html
Video is halfway down.
Boy, I just love my community organizer president!! :D
Wow I am so very OUTRAGED...oh wait I don't give a shit.
We have been groveling at the feet of our Saudi masters instead of putting together a decent national energy plan for so long what difference does it make if we bow?
Conservatives would get more upset about symbolic obsequiousness than the real obsequiousness we've been showing the Saudis for decades, wouldn't they?
The video ends before Obama bends over, the Saudi king hikes his robes, and the Marti-approved orgy begins. :P
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
The video ends before Obama bends over, the Saudi king hikes his robes, and the Marti-approved orgy begins. :P
:lol:
Quote from: vinraith on April 08, 2009, 10:33:22 AM
Conservatives would get more upset about symbolic obsequiousness than the real obsequiousness we've been showing the Saudis for decades, wouldn't they?
Tell that to Camille :contract:
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: vinraith on April 08, 2009, 10:33:22 AM
Conservatives would get more upset about symbolic obsequiousness than the real obsequiousness we've been showing the Saudis for decades, wouldn't they?
Tell that to Camille :contract:
Who the fuck is Camille and why should we care?
Quote from: Fireblade on April 08, 2009, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: vinraith on April 08, 2009, 10:33:22 AM
Conservatives would get more upset about symbolic obsequiousness than the real obsequiousness we've been showing the Saudis for decades, wouldn't they?
Tell that to Camille :contract:
Who the fuck is Camille and why should we care?
Because she's on the left.
Google "Camille Paglia" if you don't know who she is. Or just ask garbon.
Is bowing to a foreign head of state supposed to be a bad thing?
He bowed to Queen Elizabeth too... I fail to see the problem
Kevin
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 11:18:22 AM
Because she's on the left.
Google "Camille Paglia" if you don't know who she is. Or just ask garbon.
Camille Paglia isn't your standard leftist in any way. :D
Man this growing list of Faux outrage is getting annoying. OMG he gave the queen an Ipod! OMG he talked to the Russians! OMG he bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia.
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2009, 11:22:18 AM
Is bowing to a foreign head of state supposed to be a bad thing?
Everything Obama says generates outrage by his opponents. It is beyond retarded. I am suffering from idiot fatique. After 8 years of Clinton and 8 years of Bush I just cannot take more of these rants over stupid things nobody cares about.
Camille! :w00t: :wub: :wub: :w00t:
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2009, 11:25:41 AM
Man this growing list of Faux outrage is getting annoying. OMG he gave the queen an Ipod! OMG he talked to the Russians! OMG he bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia.
Conservative loonies have to show they can out-loon the Leftist loonies, who have had a lot of practice the past eight years.
Today the King of Saudi Arabia... tomorrow Zod. :(
King Zog would be cooler than Zod.
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2009, 11:22:18 AM
Is bowing to a foreign head of state supposed to be a bad thing?
It's a republican (small r) thing I think. The US has a tradition of not dipping it's flag to monarchs during the Olympics, and I can't recall seeing a previous president bow.
I haven't seen this footage (dialup) but if the Saudi bow was like the UK head jerk it's not an issue.
Quote from: PDH on April 08, 2009, 11:42:40 AM
King Zog would be cooler than Zod.
"KNEEL BEFORE ZOG!!!!"
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2009, 11:49:39 AM
I haven't seen this footage (dialup) but if the Saudi bow was like the UK head jerk it's not an issue.
It's a fairly deep bow. But maybe it is much ado about nothing. After all, bowing to foreign kings like that fits in well with his apology tour :D
I didn't watch the footage, but the opening pic of the footage seemed to show a deep bow.
I guess it's just me I can bow 20 times a day if I'm in court, so I associate a bow with a sign of respect, not of humility or homage.
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 11:56:15 AM
It's a fairly deep bow.
From the waist or from the neck? How many degrees from the vertical?:nerd:
*shrug* Well, he is a Muslim. :P
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 11:18:22 AM
Quote from: Fireblade on April 08, 2009, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: vinraith on April 08, 2009, 10:33:22 AM
Conservatives would get more upset about symbolic obsequiousness than the real obsequiousness we've been showing the Saudis for decades, wouldn't they?
Tell that to Camille :contract:
Who the fuck is Camille and why should we care?
Because she's on the left.
Google "Camille Paglia" if you don't know who she is. Or just ask garbon.
The "left". Hardly. She's an art history prof. Not representative of any actual political bent other than a bent towards social freedom to create or fuck whatever art you like. also she's a windbag. No one cares about her opinions anymore.
Gerbo clearly cares about her opinions. :D
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2009, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 11:56:15 AM
It's a fairly deep bow.
From the waist or from the neck? How many degrees from the vertical?:nerd:
From the waist, about 45 degrees. Video isn't long, though it is preceded by an annoying commercial.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on April 08, 2009, 12:02:09 PM
The "left". Hardly.
She's often quite critical of her own side, but I don't see how you can't consider her to be on the left.
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 12:07:44 PM
From the waist, about 45 degrees.
Yikes. That's a pretty serious bow.
At least he didn't get on his hands and knees.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 08, 2009, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2009, 11:25:41 AM
Man this growing list of Faux outrage is getting annoying. OMG he gave the queen an Ipod! OMG he talked to the Russians! OMG he bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia.
Conservative loonies have to show they can out-loon the Leftist loonies, who have had a lot of practice the past eight years.
QFT.
And the lefties are trying to prove they can be even more uncritically accepting of Der Leader than the conservitards.
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:14:17 PM
QFT.
And the lefties are trying to prove they can be even more uncritically accepting of Der Leader than the conservitards.
I just wish everybody would shut the fuck up for a few minutes. Aren't we supposed to wait a bit before the insanity begins all over again? Yes the left sucks, yes the right sucks. Everybody is evil and totally corrupt is you believe the shrill bullshit. I mean is labeling every leader the love child of Darth Vader and Satan really productive? Is our republic really helped by this childish nonsense?
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 12:17:51 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:14:17 PM
QFT.
And the lefties are trying to prove they can be even more uncritically accepting of Der Leader than the conservitards.
I just wish everybody would shut the fuck up for a few minutes. Aren't we supposed to wait a bit before the insanity begins all over again? Yes the left sucks, yes the right sucks. Everybody is evil and totally corrupt is you believe the shrill bullshit. I mean is labeling every leader the love child of Darth Vader and Satan really productive? Is our republic really helped by this childish nonsense?
I dunno - it seems to have worked pretty well for the last....200 years or so.
Absent Washington, this has been how it works. Hell, they accused Adams of secretly wanting to hand the country back to the British!
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 12:10:09 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on April 08, 2009, 12:02:09 PM
The "left". Hardly.
She's often quite critical of her own side, but I don't see how you can't consider her to be on the left.
agree, she's a registered democract, who voted for obama and clinton. and nader.
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:27:21 PM
I dunno - it seems to have worked pretty well for the last....200 years or so.
Absent Washington, this has been how it works. Hell, they accused Adams of secretly wanting to hand the country back to the British!
That is different. They did that during elections where it belongs.
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:27:21 PM
I dunno - it seems to have worked pretty well for the last....200 years or so.
Absent Washington, this has been how it works. Hell, they accused Adams of secretly wanting to hand the country back to the British!
That is different. They did that during elections where it belongs.
Uhh, negative. Adams was hammered throughout his entire term.
re uncritically accepting obama:
if one went to other internet echo chambers, one would see quite a number of issues where the left is debating obama policies among themselves.
Quote from: Caliga on April 08, 2009, 12:00:06 PM
*shrug* Well, he is a Muslim. :P
Muslims don't bow. It's a European way of honouring a monarch :)
What was Obama supposed to do, piss off the people who run our economy?
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 08, 2009, 12:33:54 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 08, 2009, 12:00:06 PM
*shrug* Well, he is a Muslim. :P
Muslims don't bow. It's a European way of honouring a monarch :)
And East Asian.
What is the Muslim equivalent? Sitting on both knees as in Muslim prayer?
Quote from: Queequeg on April 08, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 08, 2009, 12:33:54 PM
Quote from: Caliga on April 08, 2009, 12:00:06 PM
*shrug* Well, he is a Muslim. :P
Muslims don't bow. It's a European way of honouring a monarch :)
And East Asian.
What is the Muslim equivalent? Sitting on both knees as in Muslim prayer?
probably exploding or decapitation
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:32:22 PMUhh, negative. Adams was hammered throughout his entire term.
Yeah maybe it is just the 24 hour news stations being on everywhere I go that is getting to me. I wouldn't have had to deal with that in 1797.
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 08, 2009, 12:27:21 PM
I dunno - it seems to have worked pretty well for the last....200 years or so.
Absent Washington, this has been how it works. Hell, they accused Adams of secretly wanting to hand the country back to the British!
That is different. They did that during elections where it belongs.
Uhh, negative. Adams was hammered throughout his entire term.
He was a crypto-Jacobite.
Quote from: Queequeg on April 08, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
And East Asian.
What is the Muslim equivalent? Sitting on both knees as in Muslim prayer?
I believe Muslims (or Arabs) kiss the monarch's hand as we do the Pope but I'm not sure. And South East Asian way of honouring monarchs was to be kneeling at all points in their presence.
So, in fact Obama made a faux pas. It's giftgate all over again :p
Quote from: Queequeg on April 08, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
What is the Muslim equivalent? Sitting on both knees as in Muslim prayer?
I think they throw shoes :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 12:17:51 PM
I just wish everybody would shut the fuck up for a few minutes. Aren't we supposed to wait a bit before the insanity begins all over again? Yes the left sucks, yes the right sucks. Everybody is evil and totally corrupt is you believe the shrill bullshit. I mean is labeling every leader the love child of Darth Vader and Satan really productive? Is our republic really helped by this childish nonsense?
You're overreacting.
But anyway, I waited 8 long years to be in the opposition & pelt the leader/party in power with spitballs. Don't deny me this :contract:
I, for one, would welcome more BDSM rituals in international relations.
In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter, but it does stick in craw. He is the head of the most powerful nation on earth. He represents all of us Yanks. A polite little nod-bow would be OK. But he shouldn't be bending his spine to some feudal autocrat. He needs to get a little Jefferson into him, pronto.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on April 08, 2009, 12:02:09 PM
The "left". Hardly. She's an art history prof. Not representative of any actual political bent other than a bent towards social freedom to create or fuck whatever art you like. also she's a windbag. No one cares about her opinions anymore.
Actually she is. She rubs people the wrong way though as she isn't a mindless member of the democratic party and is often critical of her own side. Also, for a large part of her career she's been more of a cultural critic than just her position as an art history professor.
Oh and as said, I care about her opinions!
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2009, 12:07:14 PM
Gerbo clearly cares about her opinions. :D
:yeahright:
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 12:17:51 PM
I just wish everybody would shut the fuck up for a few minutes. Aren't we supposed to wait a bit before the insanity begins all over again? Yes the left sucks, yes the right sucks. Everybody is evil and totally corrupt is you believe the shrill bullshit. I mean is labeling every leader the love child of Darth Vader and Satan really productive? Is our republic really helped by this childish nonsense?
You're overreacting.
But anyway, I waited 8 long years to be in the opposition & pelt the leader/party in power with spitballs. Don't deny me this :contract:
It is fun, isn't it? :goodboy:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2009, 04:35:14 PM
In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter, but it does stick in craw. He is the head of the most powerful nation on earth. He represents all of us Yanks. A polite little nod-bow would be OK. But he shouldn't be bending his spine to some feudal autocrat. He needs to get a little Jefferson into him, pronto.
Sally Hemings has that.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 08, 2009, 05:51:12 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2009, 04:35:14 PM
In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter, but it does stick in craw. He is the head of the most powerful nation on earth. He represents all of us Yanks. A polite little nod-bow would be OK. But he shouldn't be bending his spine to some feudal autocrat. He needs to get a little Jefferson into him, pronto.
Sally Hemings has that.
Someone was going to pull that one out. I'm glad you're the one who did it. :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 10:31:04 AM
Wow I am so very OUTRAGED...oh wait I don't give a shit.
How do you counteract a deeply ingrained perception that you're an arrogant boor ? You play the humility card. It doesn't cost anything and might generate some needed goodwill - or at least less animosity.
The fact that Obama's been playing that card in one form or another during this tour; with the european allies, the Russians and now the Saudies, tells me this is orchestrated. The same man that won the presidency by being cautious and unassuming might do it again on the world stage.
Why should they fear an overly polite nerd after all ? So they'll accomodate him here and there when he humbly suggests something...
Naturally this won't please the blowhards, along with many others, but in the end no matter how you get what you want, so long as you get it !
G.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 08, 2009, 04:35:14 PM
In the grand scheme it doesn't really matter, but it does stick in craw. He is the head of the most powerful nation on earth. He represents all of us Yanks. A polite little nod-bow would be OK. But he shouldn't be bending his spine to some feudal autocrat. He needs to get a little Jefferson into him, pronto.
I agree, it's pretty poor show.
I think he needs a bit more Robespierre, but then, who doesn't?
QuoteActually she is. She rubs people the wrong way though as she isn't a mindless member of the democratic party and is often critical of her own side. Also, for a large part of her career she's been more of a cultural critic than just her position as an art history professor.
She rubs people up because it works. She's the cultural theory equivalent of Chris Hitchens. Someone with an admirable and eye-catching prose style who is, fundamentally, a bit of a dick.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 08, 2009, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 08, 2009, 05:51:12 PM
Sally Hemings has that.
Someone was going to pull that one out. I'm glad you're the one who did it. :hug:
Thank you. :blush:
it was the first thing that popped into my mind. :Embarrass:
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2009, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 08, 2009, 12:17:51 PM
I just wish everybody would shut the fuck up for a few minutes. Aren't we supposed to wait a bit before the insanity begins all over again? Yes the left sucks, yes the right sucks. Everybody is evil and totally corrupt is you believe the shrill bullshit. I mean is labeling every leader the love child of Darth Vader and Satan really productive? Is our republic really helped by this childish nonsense?
You're overreacting.
But anyway, I waited 8 long years to be in the opposition & pelt the leader/party in power with spitballs. Don't deny me this :contract:
Maybe if you had voted for Kerry you could have cut that in half. But I've always said conservatives are good on offense poor on defense. I mean compare Ruby Ridge with Oklahoma City.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on April 08, 2009, 12:02:09 PM
The "left". Hardly. She's an art history prof. Not representative of any actual political bent other than a bent towards social freedom to create or fuck whatever art you like. also she's a windbag. No one cares about her opinions anymore.
Progressive, post-feminist women should care. That means you.
Quote from: Grallon on April 08, 2009, 05:56:09 PM
How do you counteract a deeply ingrained perception that you're an arrogant boor ? You play the humility card. It doesn't cost anything and might generate some needed goodwill - or at least less animosity.
The fact that Obama's been playing that card in one form or another during this tour; with the european allies, the Russians and now the Saudies, tells me this is orchestrated. The same man that won the presidency by being cautious and unassuming might do it again on the world stage.
Why should they fear an overly polite nerd after all ? So they'll accomodate him here and there when he humbly suggests something...
Naturally this won't please the blowhards, along with many others, but in the end no matter how you get what you want, so long as you get it !
G.
I think this is the first time I've heard US policy towards Saudi Arabia described as arrogant. I thought the standard knock was that we kiss their asses and prop up their corrupt regime.
You're right that humility costs nothing and in the end it doesn't matter how you get it
as long as you get it. But this thread topic is about more than just humility, it's about paying obeisance to a monarch.
So I'm wrong - there are people who care about this.
Quote from: Barrister on April 08, 2009, 11:56:21 AM
I didn't watch the footage, but the opening pic of the footage seemed to show a deep bow.
I guess it's just me I can bow 20 times a day if I'm in court, so I associate a bow with a sign of respect, not of humility or homage.
You are right about bowing meaning respect.
However, Obamas bow is almost at 45 degrees, and is from the waist up. Since he is bowing to a muslim king, this bow means homage, no respect.
At least this is how it will be read by the islamotards, both friends and enemies of the saudi king.
And since they are ALL our enemies...
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2009, 06:34:19 PM
I think this is the first time I've heard US policy towards Saudi Arabia described as arrogant. I thought the standard knock was that we kiss their asses and prop up their corrupt regime.
You're right that humility costs nothing and in the end it doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it. But this thread topic is about more than just humility, it's about paying obeisance to a monarch.
Once again - what does it matter ? Is the US president any less important because he bowed to an elderly despot ? No. However the perception of the event in the muslim world may help bolster the US positions. Remember the saying about the tree that bends and survives the storm ? I think Obama is very much aware that the US can no longer afford a lordly attitude. But then again, perhaps there's no clever maneuvering; perhaps it was only a mark of respect, since in this instance the Saudi monarch represents the muslim world.
G.
The problem with that is that whenever you say the West is for democracy and human rights the first thing an Arab will reply is 'the house of Saud?' I think it's nearly impossible to underestimate how hated the Saudi monarchy is in 'the Islamic world'.
And, frankly, when the elected leader of the world's largest Muslim country is there, go get pally with him.
Quote from: Grallon on April 08, 2009, 07:11:29 PM
Once again - what does it matter ? Is the US president any less important because he bowed to an elderly despot ? No. However the perception of the event in the muslim world may help bolster the US positions. Remember the saying about the tree that bends and survives the storm ? I think Obama is very much aware that the US can no longer afford a lordly attitude. But then again, perhaps there's no clever maneuvering; perhaps it was only a mark of respect, since in this instance the Saudi monarch represents the muslim world.
G.
It matters in terms of public perceptions back home about upholding the dignity of the United States. And as Shelf already pointed out, sucking the Saudi knob is hardly the best way to ingratiate oneself to the Muslim world.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2009, 07:48:18 PM
And as Shelf already pointed out, sucking the Saudi knob is hardly the best way to ingratiate oneself to the Muslim world.
Be outraged then *shrug*
G.
This doesn't have any meaning in Arabian custom that Obama didn't intend, does it?
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 08, 2009, 07:20:27 PM
The problem with that is that whenever you say the West is for democracy and human rights the first thing an Arab will reply is 'the house of Saud?' I think it's nearly impossible to underestimate how hated the Saudi monarchy is in 'the Islamic world'.
Are you sure? Maybe you're talking to too many Shiites. My impression was that the House of Saud is highly respected amongst most Sunni Arabs.
Didn't Bush kiss that guy?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 08, 2009, 08:36:23 PM
This doesn't have any meaning in Arabian custom that Obama didn't intend, does it?
Acknowledging himself as a dhimmi?
Okay, I guess this was all a false alarm:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0409/White_House_No_bow_to_Saudi.html
Quote"It wasn't a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he's taller than King Abdullah," said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
:lmfao:
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2009, 11:57:11 AM
Okay, I guess this was all a false alarm:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0409/White_House_No_bow_to_Saudi.html
Quote"It wasn't a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he's taller than King Abdullah," said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
:lmfao:
First he bows to the guy, then he calls him a midget. No wonder people think Obama is wishy-washy.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on April 08, 2009, 08:43:36 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 08, 2009, 07:20:27 PM
The problem with that is that whenever you say the West is for democracy and human rights the first thing an Arab will reply is 'the house of Saud?' I think it's nearly impossible to underestimate how hated the Saudi monarchy is in 'the Islamic world'.
Are you sure? Maybe you're talking to too many Shiites. My impression was that the House of Saud is highly respected amongst most Sunni Arabs.
I've literally never met an Arab who likes them and doesn't view Western support of them as one of the big strikes against the West. They are hated. They are, in my experience, seen to examplify everything that is corrupt, self-serving and oppressive in the regime and our support of them while we talk about democracy is seen as exposing the talk about democracy as a bit of a sham.
QuoteDidn't Bush kiss that guy?
Possibly. Saudi Kings like some other elder statesmen, Nelson Mandela for example, like holding hands with other world leaders some reason. Unless they're women.
I think we should poll all Arab Languishites on their opinion of the Saudi royal family to put this issue ^^ to rest :P
Quote from: derspiess on April 09, 2009, 12:35:14 PM
I think we should poll all Arab Languishites on their opinion of the Saudi royal family to put this issue ^^ to rest :P
We have Siegy and ?