I think I've mentioned this on Languish before, but I own about a half dozen Japanese silk flags that I believe are from WWII (two of them are IJA rising sun ensigns). I've had these since I was a teenager, and they're in the exact same condition now as they were when I got them--stuffed into a Crown Royal bag and all wrinkled up. At one point, I was going to show them to a Japanese history professor I had in college, but I couldn't find them until after I graduated. Then I lost them again for many years, but found them again about 2 months ago in a box of crap from our old house in Massachusetts.
I'd really like to know what's written on them--for all I know they could be phony repros, or hell one could be from the Ichiki Regiment for all I know. I guess I could take digital pics of them all, but since they're so wrinkled I don't know if they'd even turn out to be legible due to all of the wrinkling.... so I dunno if I can iron them without destroying them. :hmm:
I have a New Nelson Japanese-English Character Dictionary at home, and it is very complete. I even translated parts of Nobunaga's Ambition for personal use with it. I might be of use.
IIRC the Japanese writing system changed after WWII, so I dunno if your dictionary would help in this case. These characters look similar to Chinese pictographs to me.
Quote from: Caliga on February 07, 2010, 06:11:36 PM
IIRC the Japanese writing system changed after WWII, so I dunno if your dictionary would help in this case. These characters look similar to Chinese pictographs to me.
It still encompasses pre-WWII Kanji.
Quote from: Caliga on February 07, 2010, 06:11:36 PM
IIRC the Japanese writing system changed after WWII, so I dunno if your dictionary would help in this case. These characters look similar to Chinese pictographs to me.
That is kanji.
The after WW2 change IIRC was a more hiragana use and a lot more katakana (more proper 'alphabet' but even that isn't the right name...syllabry or something?)
I don't think the kanji on these flags would be so obscure that they wouldn't be in the current standard proficiency list, they'd certainly be in a dictionary.
Do you have no Hong Kong or Taiwan originated people around there? They should be able to give you a idea of what they mean.
The PRC has changed its writing system though so it won't be a sure thing with regular Chinese.
Take a pic, post it, one of the ESL guys can pass it to a co-worker. Or a bar hostess. Though in passing I would note that Koreans typically know fewer characters than Japanese or Chinese.
If that fails I can ask my mom to take a look.
Hell, ask mono.
aight, maybe I'll do that after the super bowl.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2010, 06:32:03 PM
Take a pic, post it, one of the ESL guys can pass it to a co-worker. Or a bar hostess. Though in passing I would note that Koreans typically know fewer characters than Japanese or Chinese.
If that fails I can ask my mom to take a look.
Hell, ask mono.
Are the chinese characters used in Japanese, etc. really all readable if you know one set? Like if I learned Hanja, I could understand Kanji?
As far as pressing them goes:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4842068_press-silk.html
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 08, 2010, 12:10:04 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2010, 06:32:03 PM
Take a pic, post it, one of the ESL guys can pass it to a co-worker. Or a bar hostess. Though in passing I would note that Koreans typically know fewer characters than Japanese or Chinese.
If that fails I can ask my mom to take a look.
Hell, ask mono.
Are the chinese characters used in Japanese, etc. really all readable if you know one set? Like if I learned Hanja, I could understand Kanji?
I know nothing about Chinese characters used in Korean. But as far as Chinese characters in Japanese is concerned, I can pretty much read all of them. There are some slight differences - the Japanese have their own way of simplifying some of the Chinese characters; some characters have slightly different meanings (the words that mean "hot soup" in Chinese actually convey "hot water" in Japanese, for instance). But the differences are small.
IIRC they standardised and lowered kanji usage - to 1,880 characters - and used hiragana for the less often used kanji prior to the reforms; the flags should therefore still be readable by Mono.
One possible problem is that the "Chinese" pronounciation of a particular character can sound like the Japanese for a different thing; so, as far as a Chinese would be concerned, the character is being used incorrectly and the meaning is obscure.
Post some pics of the flags anyway, it would be interesting :cool:
Quote from: Monoriu on February 08, 2010, 01:10:44 AM
the words that mean "hot soup" in Chinese actually convey "hot water" in Japanese, for instance
That could be meant as a comment on Chinese cuisine.
Quote from: Zanza on February 08, 2010, 06:01:26 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 08, 2010, 01:10:44 AM
the words that mean "hot soup" in Chinese actually convey "hot water" in Japanese, for instance
That could be meant as a comment on Chinese cuisine.
hmm...Chinese soup is rather watery.....
Yeah, I think I'll take the pics tonight without worrying about the wrinkles, and if Mono can't read them I'll worry more about the ironing bit.
Quote from: Caliga on February 08, 2010, 06:14:51 AM
Yeah, I think I'll take the pics tonight without worrying about the wrinkles, and if Mono can't read them I'll worry more about the ironing bit.
I'd try hanging them up first before ironing. It takes time but nature and gravity should remove a lot of the wrinkles (if not all).
Don't apply direct heat or water. Try hanging them in a steamy bathroom after a shower.
Quote from: Brazen on February 08, 2010, 12:23:07 PM
Don't apply direct heat or water. Try hanging them in a steamy bathroom after a shower.
There has to be a testicle joke in there somewhere, I just can't find it at the moment.
Just take the fucking pictures, bitch.
Fine... happy now? :mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi679.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv155%2FCaliga10%2FFlag1.jpg&hash=a00a5d0ff5a64d3a04575a0b069989beae8b11df)
So wrinkly.
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2010, 09:53:46 PM
So wrinkly.
I told ya. :P
The flag has been stuffed inside a crown royal bag with a bunch of other flags, plus one of those Jap bandanas Daniel-san wore, for at least 20 years... probably closer to 40.
That is pretty wrinkly. Have you thought of finding some way to get rid of the wrinkles?
I'm thinking of throwing it in the washer set to hot and dumping a gallon of bleach in there with it. :)
btw I figured out earlier today what these flags all are: they're examples of hinomaru yosegaki, which have kind of a sad story to them. :(
I consider these the best items of militaria I own, since I paid zero dollars for them all. My dad got them for me when he worked for General Mills Restaurants (now known as Darden): he acquired a local restaurant in Valley Forge called the Red Lion Inn and was in there while it was being gutted, in preparation for turning it into an Olive Garden. The owner had died the year before and his son had decided he didn't want to keep the business going and had sold out. He and my dad were doing a walkthrough and he took my dad into his father's office and opened up the safe, which was full of all of "this old crap dad had". His dad had been in the USMC during WWII and fought in the PTO. He told my dad he didn't want any of his dad's keepsakes from the war, "and besides you bought the place so you own it now." So my dad and another exec friend of his named Ken split the loot up.
In addition to the bag full of hinomaru, the guy had a USMC "jungle warfare survival guide" printed manual, which I also have... somewhere. :blush: He also apparently liked to collect militaria in general, as he also had a British Army epaulet (the brass part) from the mid-18th century, which I also have. Ken took an Arisaka samurai bayonet (my dad remembered I already had one of these), a vintage Colt M1911, and probably some other shit I'm forgetting.
To this day I still can't believe a guy's son would give his dad's prized possessions away so readily like that. :mellow:
Just imagine he had the relationship you have with your mother. :P
You have it upside down :P
The five largest words at the bottom of your pic mean "pray for longlasting military fortune".
I'll try to read the rest when I have more time.
Once I saw the pic I knew it was a "good luck flag" couldn't recall the Japanese til I saw Cal's post about how he got them.
My two cents is the one aside from the aforementioned wrinkliness looks in very decent shape.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 08, 2010, 10:45:26 PM
You have it upside down :P
The five largest words at the bottom of your pic mean "pray for longlasting military fortune".
I'll try to read the rest when I have more time.
Guess they didn't pray hard enough.
Alright, I've turned the pic around on my computer and can start to read it. The majority of these are names. Looks like somebody in the unit had a flag, wrote five large characters at the top to wish for good luck, then asked everybody to sign their names. Many also wrote a few extra words of encouragement when they signed. The most obvious one is on the right hand side. There are 7 characters in bold written vertically. They mean "One male willing to die for his country", then there are 3 much paler characters (which is a name) below these 7.
Magnificent. So much history in that flag.
I also see a date beside the 7 bold characters. I see Showa [someyear], May, the word for "10", then a character underneath the "10". Should be one or two or three horizontal strokes, so must be May 11th, 12th or 13th. Besides the names, the characters are mostly "ready to die", "battle spirit", etc.
I thought they didnt call it Showa til after the emperor died. Am I wrong about that?
I see a lot of mention of "loyalty" on the left hand side. There is a big, prominent, bold character on a white strip on the left hand side. That's the Chinese/Japanese character for "loyalty". On the left hand side of that word, on a red strip are four characters sittong on the edge, and one of them is the same character. They mean "To die for my country to show loyalty." On the same red strip are two larger characters. They mean "Big Male" :lol:
Quote from: Jaron on February 08, 2010, 11:01:05 PM
I thought they didnt call it Showa til after the emperor died. Am I wrong about that?
"Showa" is really used to depict the year. Instead of "The year of the lord two thousand" used in western countries, they follow the ancient Chinese system of allowing emperors/governments to name the year. It is not really the name of the emperor, but the name of the years under him.
Gotcha. :)
Quote from: Monoriu on February 08, 2010, 10:53:32 PM
Alright, I've turned the pic around on my computer and can start to read it. The majority of these are names. Looks like somebody in the unit had a flag, wrote five large characters at the top to wish for good luck, then asked everybody to sign their names. Many also wrote a few extra words of encouragement when they signed. The most obvious one is on the right hand side. There are 7 characters in bold written vertically. They mean "One male willing to die for his country", then there are 3 much paler characters (which is a name) below these 7.
Yes, exactly, that was how these flags were used. Assuming that these flags were acquired by the restaurant owner personally during the war, he (or his unit) most likely killed the soldiers carrying them.
If that's not morbid enough for you, Princesca's great uncle has a collection of gold teeth/fillings he pried from dead Japanese soldier's mouths during the war (he was in the US Army... I believe he fought in the Philippines and on Okinawa).
I'm quite impressed by the level of caligraphy skill displayed. For the most part, the people who wrote the words were used to writing. They don't seem to be uneducated peasants.
Quote from: Jaron on February 08, 2010, 10:56:58 PM
Magnificent. So much history in that flag.
Indeed, good stuff here. :)
Cool flag.
Today we laugh about WW2 but it's easy to forget that for the people involved it was anything but funny.
Mono, what was the name of the soldier? I think it'd be
QuoteThey mean "One male willing to die for his country", then there are 3 much paler characters (which is a name) below these 7.
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 05:24:36 AM
Mono, what was the name of the soldier? I think it'd be
QuoteThey mean "One male willing to die for his country", then there are 3 much paler characters (which is a name) below these 7.
Japanese names usually consist of 4 characters, with the first two forming the family name and the last two forming his given name. This one has only 3 characters, if I am not mistaken. I can only translate what those 3 characters mean in Chinese - first one means "south", second one means "rock", third means "bear (the animal)".
I see, thanks. :)
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2010, 05:29:14 AM
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 05:24:36 AM
Mono, what was the name of the soldier? I think it'd be
QuoteThey mean "One male willing to die for his country", then there are 3 much paler characters (which is a name) below these 7.
third means "bear (the animal)".
lol thank god
Quote from: Monoriu on February 08, 2010, 10:53:32 PM
Alright, I've turned the pic around on my computer and can start to read it. The majority of these are names. Looks like somebody in the unit had a flag, wrote five large characters at the top to wish for good luck, then asked everybody to sign their names. Many also wrote a few extra words of encouragement when they signed. The most obvious one is on the right hand side. There are 7 characters in bold written vertically. They mean "One male willing to die for his country", then there are 3 much paler characters (which is a name) below these 7.
Wow cool, that was my guess too, just the sort of thing students do at the end of the year.
Is it just me or are a lot of the names at jaunty angles? At the phone as is just above and to the right of the main message I can see a bunch of kanji written downwards which seem right way up, there are a few 'right way up' from the sides too. Wonder if this was a quick slap the flag down and everyone crowd around and write your name affair.
In fact the majority seem to be written in line with the beams of the sun with only a few being right way in line with the message.
Flag #2. When I was unrolling this flag for the photo, I noticed for the first time that it has a small tag in the lower right corner (out of the frame) which reads "Eniwetok 1943". My guess is that this soldier was killed during the Battle of Eniwetok Atoll, which occurred from February 17th to February 23rd, 1944, the result of which was that the Japanese garrison was almost completely wiped out (as usual). I think the guy was referring to that battle and just got confused about the date.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi679.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv155%2FCaliga10%2FFlag2.jpg&hash=15b257d56157bb12742d2c490da1e0d9bbc055c3)
It is so incredible that you have these. Put it to a Japanese friend just now- he could not read some of it, but at the bottom it says 'Will of Heaven', and ' Luck in combat, may it last' at the top.
He had more, but it was fragments. Devotion, loyalty, Japanese Spirit, and such.
Given the extreme reverence with which the Japanese view their ancestors, I am debating making an attempt to return the flags to Japan. I wish there was a Japanese consulate in Louisville, but it looks like the closest one is in Nashville.
:rolleyes:
Keep it! War Spoils.
Update: funny you mentioned it, because my Japanese friend is angry you have it. He is something of a nationalist, and thinks disrespect was meant by its condition. He said he'd be interested in buying it off you?
I'm not selling them, period. Either I'm keeping them, or I'll return them to their families... somehow.
He says there are also signatures on it, by the way. Somehow he did not mention that previously.
If its a collective battle flag, I am not sure returning it to 'families' is quite practical. Is selling it to a Japanese person who admires the combatants of his country in WW2 not quite close enough?
Still, I admire your sentiment re: selling it.
(And this is a great guy. He loves the Confederacy, and I love Japan. We get on really well.)
Aside from the wrinkles it looks like it's in great condition, I'd talk to a professional about cleaning it rather than trying to do it yourself.
Lettuce, read back through the thread. When Japanese soldiers were notified that they were to be deployed to the front, it was customary for a village/school to make one of these and the soldier's classmates and family signed them and wrote goodwill messages along with their signatures, and the soldiers carried them personally. They were commonly looted from dead soldiers, who often tied them around their heads or waists while going into battle (and especially before something like a banzai charge).
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historylink101.com%2FwwII_b-w%2Fmarines%2FIwoJapaneseEquip%2Fimages%2FPICT4278.jpg&hash=53b56d56bd99abee2f0f3667771ead95b53a3f0e)
Lettuce's buddy will be gladdened by the condition of the flag in the last pic.
If you send it back to Japan, write "Dokdo Belongs to Korea!" on it first.
Maybe I will return them in exchange for Fujiko Kano. :perv:
Stop with teh stupid "lets return it" idea. Returning it would be trashing the memories of American soldiers.
Why do you hate America, Caliga?
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 06:25:41 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 08, 2010, 10:45:26 PM
You have it upside down :P
Corrected. -_-
Jeez this is even worse - the pic is now a mirror image of itself :lol:
You got the wrong side.
Flag number 2 is displayed correctly :bowler:
I am: learning. :smarty:
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 09, 2010, 07:48:17 AM
Update: funny you mentioned it, because my Japanese friend is angry you have it. He is something of a nationalist, and thinks disrespect was meant by its condition. He said he'd be interested in buying it off you?
That settles it. Never return the flags, Cal.
Quote from: The Brain on February 09, 2010, 08:59:50 AM
That settles it. Never return the flags, Cal.
So I should base my decisions on how Japanese Lettuce behaves? :lol:
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 09:49:43 AM
Quote from: The Brain on February 09, 2010, 08:59:50 AM
That settles it. Never return the flags, Cal.
So I should base my decisions on how Japanese Lettuce behaves? :lol:
Please do.
Mewijasn! Squeeotu!
I found this thread about ironing silk flags in a rather *uhm* peculiar forum:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORUMS/showthread.php?p=1815095 (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORUMS/showthread.php?p=1815095)
Wonderful flags, btw, Cal :)
L.
I need to dig out my kraut dagger out and take a pic of it.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 09, 2010, 10:02:40 AM
I need to dig out my kraut dagger out and take a pic of it.
Out of whom?
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 09, 2010, 10:02:40 AM
I need to dig out my kraut dagger out and take a pic of it.
Oh, I have one of them, too.... but that would never be going back to Germany. I believe I am entitled to it based on my German ancestry. Ein volk, ein reich, ein Fuhrer. :)
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 10:09:05 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 09, 2010, 10:02:40 AM
I need to dig out my kraut dagger out and take a pic of it.
Oh, I have one of them, too.... but that would never be going back to Germany. I believe I am entitled to it based on my German ancestry. Ein volk, ein reich, ein Fuhrer. :)
:tear:
Anyway, just so GF stops with his bitching, I have several more of these flags that I've not yet posted, including a smaller IJA ensign that is unsigned. So if I decide to give them back, I can at least keep that one. :cool:
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 10:15:29 AM
Anyway, just so GF stops with his bitching, I have several more of these flags that I've not yet posted, including a smaller IJA ensign that is unsigned. So if I decide to give them back, I can at least keep that one. :cool:
I actually agree with gay fox, in a less emo way.
Screw the japs and the krauts.
They lost, we get to keep theirs flags.
Tear down their eagles and burn the staves. The flags belong in a triumph, their leaders in cages.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 09, 2010, 08:53:57 AM
Jeez this is even worse - the pic is now a mirror image of itself :lol:
You got the wrong side.
Corrected. :blush:
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 09, 2010, 08:43:42 AM
Stop with teh stupid "lets return it" idea. Returning it would be trashing the memories of American soldiers.
Why do you hate America, Caliga?
In what way does returning a personal item of such significance to the kin of the dead owner(s) "trash the memories of American soldiers"?
Can we have their life back? No. They don't get the flags.
Quote from: Agelastus on February 09, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
In what way does returning a personal item of such significance to the kin of the dead owner(s) "trash the memories of American soldiers"?
I have to say I might feel differently if these were personally obtained by my grandfather (who fought in the European theater) or my great uncle (who actually fought in the PTO, and in fact was shot down off New Guinea by the Japanese, but managed to survive)... but they were obtained from Some Random Guy(TM). Random Guy is dead, and his son didn't care.
I don't think it'd trash the memory even then. What with reconcilliation and the 21st century and all that.
My only concern would be in giving up such a cool/valuable item.
Quote from: Tyr on February 09, 2010, 11:51:52 AM
I don't think it'd trash the memory even then. What with reconcilliation and the 21st century and all that.
My only concern would be in giving up such a cool/valuable item.
But you might gain some rather cool contacts to the land of Gozilla and big breasted anime girls.
If the descendants of those soliders (if there are any) should turn out to be stupid jackasses you can still hold on to the items.
Returning the flags would be a crime against America.
Quote from: Syt on February 09, 2010, 11:53:44 AM
But you might gain some rather cool contacts to the land of Gozilla and big breasted anime girls.
If the descendants of those soliders (if there are any) should turn out to be stupid jackasses you can still hold on to the items.
Big breasted anime girls but 5 foot tall, flat chested and ugly real girls :(
(theres a awesome reality vs fiction picture on the web somewhere...I just can't find it)
Thats true. This is all assuming the descendants of the guy actually care with it being the Japanese stereotype. They could be the same as the guy who gave them up in the first place- or worse, they will demand them back just so they can sell them.
Quote from: Caliga on February 08, 2010, 10:38:33 PM
British Army epaulet (the brass part) from the mid-18th century
Let's see a picture of this one please!
Quote from: PRC on February 09, 2010, 12:28:45 PM
Let's see a picture of this one please!
Dunno where it is. :blush:
I'll find it eventually, just like how I found the flags eventually. I have: way too much shit.
My brother is going to get the Japs in his Judo club to translate these. If they can't, they have some affiliation with a club called "Japan-Philadelphia Friendship Society", and he expects someone there can.
Quote from: Caliga on February 09, 2010, 07:51:40 AM
I'm not selling them, period. Either I'm keeping them, or I'll return them to their families... somehow.
My Great Uncle had some Japanese items, papers, books, what ever, taken off of dead soldiers. He contacted the Japanese Consul some years ago and had them returned. The family of the Japanese soldiers were very appreciative. I think they had a ceremony in Japan, as a way of honoring my uncle.
My uncle is deceased now, having passed away last year. He saw a lot of combat as a Marine combat infantryman. I'm pretty sure that his family still has some other items though.