Right. So I'm working on an independent study class with a professor and she has tasked me with the following: I would be very happy if you identified sources on (and wrote one-page synopses of) what happened to confession after ca. 1550 (the sacrament of confession) in lands that became Lutheran (most notably, Germany) or Anglican (England). I planning on searching through the local libraries, college and public as well as talking to some pastors and priests I know for ideas and sources. I figured I might as well throw the topic out here for all of you to look at and see if anyone has any insight, input, or potential places/books to look into. I know some of you are into religion, some are natives of the areas being discussed, and the vast majority of you enjoy history. Therefore Languish, I come to you! Thanks in advance for any help. :)
I don't know what "happened" to confession, but I know why Lutherans don't do it. Lutherans don't do it because they confess their sins to God, giving the local priest something to blackmail you with is not part of the deal.
Quote from: Viking on February 03, 2010, 05:01:23 AM
I don't know what "happened" to confession, but I know why Lutherans don't do it. Lutherans don't do it because they confess their sins to God, giving the local priest something to blackmail you with is not part of the deal.
Correct.
My grandfather is a retired Lutheran pastor and he explained that to me once. While telling me that he also mentioned sometimes his parishioners would still try to confess stuff to him (like if they were having an affair or something), and while he'd be happy to counsel them on that, he always reminded them that they needed to pray to God for forgiveness.
:w00t:
I know so much about the religion that I don't believe in :pope: oh wait, that smiley is wrong... :blush:
You would think I learned a lot from my grandfather, but I didn't. Oddly he almost never talked about religion or acted religious outside of church or church functions. When he was at church, visiting someone at a hospice, etc. he was like a different person (i.e. a religious one).
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2010, 06:16:26 AM
You would think I learned a lot from my grandfather, but I didn't. Oddly he almost never talked about religion or acted religious outside of church or church functions. When he was at church, visiting someone at a hospice, etc. he was like a different person (i.e. a religious one).
Did you ask him about it?
Some people like to talk about their jobs and some don't. My dad rattled on about his work, workplace politics and would bounce work related ideas about me. My mom, however, didn't even want to tell me about it when I asked.
I know with my work I'm happy to talk about it, even to people who are only asking out of politeness :showoff:
I must admit that I find this assignment confusing. I assume that it is an exercise in locating sources, rather than actually researching (since the answer to the question is quite straightforward, insofar as I can see), but it is unclear to me if your teacher is talking about sources that address confession in the period of the Reformations (which is pretty easy, since you just have to address primary sources), or if she wants you to carry this forward into modern times (in which case the geographical limits don't make a lot of sense).
How many sources is she expecting you to "uncover?"
If you could cover Calvinist territories as well, that would make for a far more interesting project and paper, since I think Zwingli and Luther differed/debated (in writing) on this (though it might have been only the sacrament of communion).
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:38:52 AM
I must admit that I find this assignment confusing. I assume that it is an exercise in locating sources, rather than actually researching (since the answer to the question is quite straightforward, insofar as I can see), but it is unclear to me if your teacher is talking about sources that address confession in the period of the Reformations (which is pretty easy, since you just have to address primary sources), or if she wants you to carry this forward into modern times (in which case the geographical limits don't make a lot of sense).
How many sources is she expecting you to "uncover?"
If you could cover Calvinist territories as well, that would make for a far more interesting project and paper, since I think Zwingli and Luther differed/debated (in writing) on this (though it might have been only the sacrament of communion).
http://www.wikipedia.org/
Lutheran priests can get married so they are made more uncomfortable by all the beautiful women who come to confession and say 'forgive me father for I have sinned I have lusted after this hot priest.' I mean that is what I see in the documentaries I have seen on the subject.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:38:52 AM
I must admit that I find this assignment confusing. I assume that it is an exercise in locating sources, rather than actually researching (since the answer to the question is quite straightforward, insofar as I can see), but it is unclear to me if your teacher is talking about sources that address confession in the period of the Reformations (which is pretty easy, since you just have to address primary sources), or if she wants you to carry this forward into modern times (in which case the geographical limits don't make a lot of sense).
How many sources is she expecting you to "uncover?"
If you could cover Calvinist territories as well, that would make for a far more interesting project and paper, since I think Zwingli and Luther differed/debated (in writing) on this (though it might have been only the sacrament of communion).
I don't know if it is so straightforward--did the institution immediately disappear in the reformed churches? Did Confession continue to be robustly practiced among the underground catholic churches? Did ministers facilitate confession like interactions for a period of time? What were the implications for society and public thought?
I know a lot (all?) of modern Protestant Churches don't have confession. I guess it could be a partial test in locating sources, and part seeing if things did progress to the modern lack of confession as Alfred Russel suggests. I'm thinking the Church of England might have more of a confessional history, though I'm not sure. They seemed to retain more elements of Catholicism than the Lutheran Churches. As to the historical timeline I'm to pursue, I'm not sure. I'll look into the Calvinist idea Grumbler. Thanks all for the ideas and information so far, and keep stuff coming if you find any/think of any.
You can still get confession in the CofE, especially High Church churches. I believe the policy is 'all may, some should, none must'. Which more or less sums up Anglicanism :bowler:
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2010, 01:15:09 PM
Lutheran priests can get married so they are made more uncomfortable by all the beautiful women who come to confession and say 'forgive me father for I have sinned I have lusted after this hot priest.' I mean that is what I see in the documentaries I have seen on the subject.
Oddly, most of the documentaries I have seen on the subject involve Nuns.
Quote from: Judas Iscariot on February 03, 2010, 01:34:14 PM
I know a lot (all?) of modern Protestant Churches don't have confession. I guess it could be a partial test in locating sources, and part seeing if things did progress to the modern lack of confession as Alfred Russel suggests. I'm thinking the Church of England might have more of a confessional history, though I'm not sure. They seemed to retain more elements of Catholicism than the Lutheran Churches. As to the historical timeline I'm to pursue, I'm not sure. I'll look into the Calvinist idea Grumbler. Thanks all for the ideas and information so far, and keep stuff coming if you find any/think of any.
What all the reformation churches agree on is that each soul has a direct connection to god and there is no need for mediation of any kind from either the church or saints. If any reformation churches have confession they don't see it as a required part of forgiveness. So no confession seems to be a pretty obvious consequence of the idea that each christian has a direct link to god.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that the end of Confession was pretty much the first thing that Lutherans stopped (presumably before they even stopped thinking of themselves as Catholics) since the main complaint in the 95 theses is about the sale of indulgences and attacks the idea that the church can grant absolution, which is pretty much what happens in confession.
Quote from: alfred russel on February 03, 2010, 01:22:10 PM
I don't know if it is so straightforward--did the institution immediately disappear in the reformed churches?
Yep in the case of Lutheranism. That is straight out of Luther. Never disappeared in Anglicanism.
QuoteDid Confession continue to be robustly practiced among the underground catholic churches?
Yes. For catholics, confession is one of the sacraments.
QuoteDid ministers facilitate confession like interactions for a period of time?
Lutherans, no. Anglicans, of course.
QuoteWhat were the implications for society and public thought?
Four.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 02:58:09 PM
I believe the policy is 'all may, some should, none must'. Which more or less sums up Anglicanism :bowler:
:lol:
At least some Protestant denominations have a doctrine that says that you should confess your sins publicly before the whole congregation. The idea being that if you just confess in private to a clergyman, you're really still hiding your sins.
In practice in a lot of denominations, that just means that you confess implicitly to having sinned in general rather than explicitly confessing to individual sins (for example, in the United Methodist Church, if you take part in Holy Communion, you are acknowledging that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness--in fact, most sacrements included acknowledging that you have sinned). Of course, this also means that in practice, you can still hid what sins you have actually committed.
Yeah, in my mother in law's (Southern Baptist) church people sometimes do that. A couple of months ago this one dude stood up in front of the whole church and confessed that he was addicted to watching porno. Wish I had been there to see that. :lol:
I think you're right that a lot of Protestants believe that confession is within the service and is says public.
The Kirk, I believe, went further. They actually believed in public confession/humiliation whereby a part of the service would be set aside for people to confess their sins; they'd then do suitable penance until the congregation and Minister believed they were fit to be accepted again. The penance or repentance stool which sat at the front of the Church (for the entire interminable service) was an example of this.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 04:34:21 PM
The Kirk, I believe, went further.
Still got nothing on The Picard.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 04:34:21 PM
I think you're right that a lot of Protestants believe that confession is within the service and is says public.
The Kirk, I believe, went further. They actually believed in public confession/humiliation whereby a part of the service would be set aside for people to confess their sins; they'd then do suitable penance until the congregation and Minister believed they were fit to be accepted again. The penance or repentance stool which sat at the front of the Church (for the entire interminable service) was an example of this.
Catholicism is the beauty of religion at its most mystical and irrational. Protestantism is the horror of religion at its most logical and thought through.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 04:20:58 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on February 03, 2010, 01:22:10 PM
I don't know if it is so straightforward--did the institution immediately disappear in the reformed churches?
Yep in the case of Lutheranism. That is straight out of Luther. Never disappeared in Anglicanism.
QuoteDid Confession continue to be robustly practiced among the underground catholic churches?
Yes. For catholics, confession is one of the sacraments.
QuoteDid ministers facilitate confession like interactions for a period of time?
Lutherans, no. Anglicans, of course.
QuoteWhat were the implications for society and public thought?
Four.
The early reformation was not so clean, and practice didn't always change as fast as the theology.
edit: actually, even among catholics the practice of confession has undergone remarkable changes in practice the past few years. Considering how the absolution of sins was one of the major focuses of the reformation, are you that certain it didn't change during the 1550s?
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 04:55:16 PM
Catholicism is the beauty of religion at its most mystical and irrational. Protestantism is the horror of religion at its most logical and thought through.
And Anglicanism is for those who can't make their minds up about which of the above extremes appeals to them.
I must admit, as a Briton, I wasn't aware that "High Church Anglicanism" actually practised the sacrament of confession. I haven't personally come across it, nor can I ever recall coming across it in the media.
Quote from: Agelastus on February 03, 2010, 05:20:44 PM
I must admit, as a Briton, I wasn't aware that "High Church Anglicanism" actually practised the sacrament of confession. I haven't personally come across it, nor can I ever recall coming across it in the media.
Not just the High Church, though they're more keen than most. It largely depends on the Vicar.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 05:24:54 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on February 03, 2010, 05:20:44 PM
I must admit, as a Briton, I wasn't aware that "High Church Anglicanism" actually practised the sacrament of confession. I haven't personally come across it, nor can I ever recall coming across it in the media.
Not just the High Church, though they're more keen than most. It largely depends on the Vicar.
I'd be more ashamed of not knowing this than I actually am if I'd actually been to church since I left school...it's still pretty embarassing though. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
Yeah, in my mother in law's (Southern Baptist) church people sometimes do that. A couple of months ago this one dude stood up in front of the whole church and confessed that he was addicted to watching porno. Wish I had been there to see that. :lol:
Awesome. My church would be more fun than that stuff.
I don't think I've ever been to a Southern Baptist service before. One of my best friends growing up was a Missionary Baptist & I had to go to his church a few times. They were about as conservative as you can get (they constantly railed against "Rock Music") but their services were fairly subdued. And they sure as shit enforced discipline in Sunday School (ours tended to be rather the opposite).
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
for example, in the United Methodist Church, if you take part in Holy Communion, you are acknowledging that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness--in fact, most sacrements included acknowledging that you have sinned.
Yep, we keep a lot of it implied. Apart from standing for some of the hymns, you're pretty much on autopilot all the time :)
For the record, confession as practiced in the Catholic church is pretty awesome. I bet one could write a thesis on the "architecture" of confession booths alone, what with their elaborate construction, etc.
:pope: > all other religions.
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2010, 06:01:05 PM
For the record, confession as practiced in the Catholic church is pretty awesome. I bet one could write a thesis on the "architecture" of confession booths alone, what with their elaborate construction, etc.
You rage quit those also?
So an update of sorts from her:
Basically, I'm less interested in what people think now (though that is not uninteresting) than in what happened in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries in countries that were not primarily Catholic.
Did confession survive in any organized clerical form, and if so, what?
Quote from: dps on February 03, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
At least some Protestant denominations have a doctrine that says that you should confess your sins publicly before the whole congregation. The idea being that if you just confess in private to a clergyman, you're really still hiding your sins.
Public confession was a common practice in the Catholic Church during the middle ages. During the Reformation they shifted to private confessions.
Quote from: alfred russel on February 03, 2010, 05:07:18 PM
The early reformation was not so clean, and practice didn't always change as fast as the theology.
I must confess that I have no idea what this means, in regards to the sacrament of confession.
Quoteedit: actually, even among catholics the practice of confession has undergone remarkable changes in practice the past few years. Considering how the absolution of sins was one of the major focuses of the reformation, are you that certain it didn't change during the 1550s?
I have never heard that the Catholics even considered abandoning the sacrament of confession, let alone that they actually did so, even momentarily. From what do you derive the question?
I would note that I teach the Reformation as merely one of seventeen units in Ap European History, and that the religious element of that unit is far less comprehensive than the social and political elements, so it is possible that there was stuff going on in individual churches or even sects that modified the sacrament of confession. I would be surprised to find a papal change of doctrine, though, unless it was so minor as to not be mentioned in any of the histories of the period I have used.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 04:34:21 PM
The Kirk, I believe, went further.
Your church intrigues me and I would like to sign up for your newsletter.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.splendoroftruth.com%2Fcurtjester%2FPics%2FChair%2520pope%2520visit%2520US_Kirk.jpg&hash=ca303844f7ed7ab9bb2efa4a1a5e0b8c419f916f)
Quote from: Judas Iscariot on February 03, 2010, 06:53:45 PM
So an update of sorts from her:
Basically, I'm less interested in what people think now (though that is not uninteresting) than in what happened in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries in countries that were not primarily Catholic.
Did confession survive in any organized clerical form, and if so, what?
That is basically thre option B I mentioned, and a much more interesting question. I can bet you will find lots of weird little sects that had different practices. Check out Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian religion" for sure. Once you move away from the "sacraments" to confession in general, you can look at the Anabaptists and Hussites, for instance. I don't know their policies on confession, but both predated Luther and continued past his time.
Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 07:20:55 PM
I must confess that I have no idea what this means, in regards to the sacrament of confession.
Do I know what the changes in practice for confession were during the 1550s? Not at all. But it wasn't as simple as saying that there were catholics who continued to practice it and lutherans who did not? I know that isn't the case, because in the 1550s the bright line distinction between denominations was not as clear as it would become.
Quote
I would note that I teach the Reformation as merely one of seventeen units in Ap European History, and that the religious element of that unit is far less comprehensive than the social and political elements, so it is possible that there was stuff going on in individual churches or even sects that modified the sacrament of confession. I would be surprised to find a papal change of doctrine, though, unless it was so minor as to not be mentioned in any of the histories of the period I have used.
You don't need a papal change of doctrine for even radical changes to take place. Think about the past few decades in the Catholic Church. The percentage of churchgoers going to confession has plunged, while the nature of the institution has changed (my understanding is that it has moved to be more often a face to face encounter).
Especially considering that one of the main attacks on the church involved the absolution of sins through indulgences, it would not surprise me if there were some practical changes as a response. Perhaps there was a focus on the spiritual aspects of confession versus the financial means of penance. I don't know, but it seems like a reasonable question for inquiry.
I have a different understanding of indulgences. They weren't absolution - that could only be granted via confession and certain acts - they were a portion of the 'treasury of souls'. Basically you've got monks and nuns who sit around praying all day and you've got Saints who prayed a lot. The amount of time their prayers are needed for themselves is very low, so the Church has a mass of unallotted prayers going around. Indulgences is basically someone paying for x amount of prayers from the 'treasury of souls', the store cupboard of monastic life, which the Church then says knocks y number of years off of purgatory. It's not absolution, you're not forgiven; it's time off.
So, for example, someone does lots of evil and then pays a big sum to an indulgence peddler. If he doesn't go to confession he still goes to hell because he has not been absolved of those sins. If he goes to confession then, absolved, he has to spend less time in purgatory than otherwise.
Incidentally indulgences still exist. Though I don't think you can buy them any more.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2010, 08:00:11 PM
I have a different understanding of indulgences. They weren't absolution - that could only be granted via confession and certain acts - they were a portion of the 'treasury of souls'. Basically you've got monks and nuns who sit around praying all day and you've got Saints who prayed a lot. The amount of time their prayers are needed for themselves is very low, so the Church has a mass of unallotted prayers going around. Indulgences is basically someone paying for x amount of prayers from the 'treasury of souls', the store cupboard of monastic life, which the Church then says knocks y number of years off of purgatory. It's not absolution, you're not forgiven; it's time off.
So, for example, someone does lots of evil and then pays a big sum to an indulgence peddler. If he doesn't go to confession he still goes to hell because he has not been absolved of those sins. If he goes to confession then, absolved, he has to spend less time in purgatory than otherwise.
Incidentally indulgences still exist. Though I don't think you can buy them any more.
Fair enough, I'm not especially knowledgeable about the ins and outs of theology or other esoteric superstitions.
Quote from: alfred russel on February 03, 2010, 08:07:43 PM
Fair enough, I'm not especially knowledgeable about the ins and outs of theology or other esoteric superstitions.
Everyone should read theology. It's my favourite branch of abstract shit :)
Quote from: Caliga on February 03, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
Yeah, in my mother in law's (Southern Baptist) church people sometimes do that. A couple of months ago this one dude stood up in front of the whole church and confessed that he was addicted to watching porno. Wish I had been there to see that. :lol:
:lol:
How did the congregation react?
Quote from: Viking on February 03, 2010, 05:01:23 AM
I don't know what "happened" to confession, but I know why Lutherans don't do it. Lutherans don't do it because they confess their sins to God, giving the local priest something to blackmail you with is not part of the deal.
:D
Quite hard to blackmail someone when you are bound by the Secret of Confession... besides, the booths are built with a substantial physical barrier between priest and faithful, and latticework in order to provide a fair degree of anonymity, or at least plausible deniability (but interestingly enough, confession booths were adopted only by the Council of Trent, they didn't exist before the Reform)
Quote from: Alatriste on February 04, 2010, 02:46:04 AM
.... (but interestingly enough, confession booths were adopted only by the Council of Trent, they didn't exist before the Reform)
That is something Judas could use.
Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 06:40:00 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on February 04, 2010, 02:46:04 AM
.... (but interestingly enough, confession booths were adopted only by the Council of Trent, they didn't exist before the Reform)
That is something Judas could use.
Indeed. I'm not an expert but this could be a good starting point
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/westernciv/video/holt1.html
Quote
There was also a significant Catholic reformation that occurred in the sixteenth century, though in some ways it predated the Protestant efforts and was more than just a knee-jerk reaction to the defections of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Bucer and their followers from the church. Catholic reform had two principal outlets. The first was a very traditional means of settling disputes or dealing with crises: the pope called a church council. And when Pope Paul III convoked the Council of Trent in 1545, he could hardly have known that in addition to rejecting the Protestant heresies, the council would, in fact, over a period of the next eighteen years, ultimately embrace the very same two goals of Protestantism: transforming the religious experience of its members from a largely communal and social experience to more of an individual and intellectual experience, as well as recreating the kingdom of heaven on earth through stricter moral discipline. The council achieved the first of these goals through a reformation of the sacraments. All those social bonds in the sacramental practices were excised in favor of those that stressed individual salvation. For example, in the sacrament of baptism the family's kinship links were severely cut back, as godparents were limited to two in number, and the sacrament had to be performed within three days of birth, largely to prevent a longer period for more distant relatives to arrive for the celebration. All these changes were designed to refocus the sacrament on its doctrinal function: the washing away of the stain of original sin. In the sacrament of penance, the public and communal confession of sins was transformed by the confessional box into a much more individual experience, the bright idea of one of the bishops at Trent, Carlo Borromeo. In contrast to the open and public experience depicted in Van der Weyden’s altarpiece of the sacraments, here we see a more private and individualized sacrament. Even the community of saints was de-emphasized, transformed from a collective cohort that could intervene with God on one's behalf into a much tamer and less active collection of role models for Christian behavior. Thus, although their theology still centered on every individual’s free will to follow or reject God rather than on predestination, Catholic reformers also sought to transform the religious experience of its members into a more individualized and more intellectual set of ideals.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 08:18:03 PM
:lol:
How did the congregation react?
I don't remember exactly what she told me, but I think it was something along the lines of "everyone was too shocked to react", but the dude started crying and I think Brother Tom hugged him in a homotastic show of sympathy and support.
I am under the impression that the blue haired old ladies that make up 75% of that church's congregation don't understand the concept of male sex drive, probably because when they were in their prime they dutifully assumed the missionary position nightly so their men didn't need to beat off/watch porn.
This guy, however, is married to a closeted lesbo (she's literally the most mannish woman I've ever encountered) and I know from Princesca and her grapevine gossip connections that they literally have no sexual relationship at all.
Quote from: Caliga on February 04, 2010, 08:28:55 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 03, 2010, 08:18:03 PM
:lol:
How did the congregation react?
I don't remember exactly what she told me, but I think it was something along the lines of "everyone was too shocked to react", but the dude started crying and I think Brother Tom hugged him in a homotastic show of sympathy and support.
I am under the impression that the blue haired old ladies that make up 75% of that church's congregation don't understand the concept of male sex drive, probably because when they were in their prime they dutifully assumed the missionary position nightly so their men didn't need to beat off/watch porn.
This guy, however, is married to a closeted lesbo (she's literally the most mannish woman I've ever encountered) and I know from Princesca and her grapevine gossip connections that they literally have no sexual relationship at all.
I feel bad for the guy. He can't divorce, can't cheat, and any solo action makes him so guilty he feels the need to publicly humiliate himself.
Quote from: alfred russel on February 04, 2010, 12:04:26 PM
any solo action makes him so guilty he feels the need to publicly humiliate himself.
Heh, some folks get off on that. ;)