Confession post-Luther: What happened?

[Sophie Scholl]

So an update of sorts from her:

Basically, I'm less interested in what people think now (though that is not uninteresting) than in what happened in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries in countries that were not primarily Catholic.   
Did confession survive in any organized clerical form, and if so, what?

[Razgovory]

At least some Protestant denominations have a doctrine that says that you should confess your sins publicly before the whole congregation.  The idea being that if you just confess in private to a clergyman, you're really still hiding your sins.

Public confession was a common practice in the Catholic Church during the middle ages.  During the Reformation they shifted to private confessions.

[grumbler]

The early reformation was not so clean, and practice didn't always change as fast as the theology.

I must confess that I have no idea what this means, in regards to the sacrament of confession. 

edit: actually, even among catholics the practice of confession has undergone remarkable changes in practice the past few years. Considering how the absolution of sins was one of the major focuses of the reformation, are you that certain it didn't change during the 1550s?

I have never heard that the Catholics even considered abandoning the sacrament of confession, let alone that they actually did so, even momentarily.  From what do you derive the question?

I would note that I teach the Reformation as merely one of seventeen units in Ap European History, and that the religious element of that unit is far less comprehensive than the social and political elements, so it is possible that there was stuff going on in individual churches or even sects that modified the sacrament of confession.  I would be surprised to find a papal change of doctrine, though, unless it was so minor as to not be mentioned in any of the histories of the period I have used.

[jimmy olsen]

The Kirk, I believe, went further. 

Your church intrigues me and I would like to sign up for your newsletter.

[grumbler]

So an update of sorts from her:

Basically, I'm less interested in what people think now (though that is not uninteresting) than in what happened in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries in countries that were not primarily Catholic.   
Did confession survive in any organized clerical form, and if so, what?

That is basically thre option B I mentioned, and a much more interesting question.  I can bet you will find lots of weird little sects that had different practices.  Check out Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian religion" for sure.  Once you move away from the "sacraments" to confession in general, you can look at the Anabaptists and Hussites, for instance.  I don't know their policies on confession, but both predated Luther and continued past his time.

[alfred russel]

I must confess that I have no idea what this means, in regards to the sacrament of confession. 

Do I know what the changes in practice for confession were during the 1550s? Not at all. But it wasn't as simple as saying that there were catholics who continued to practice it and lutherans who did not? I know that isn't the case, because in the 1550s the bright line distinction between denominations was not as clear as it would become.

I would note that I teach the Reformation as merely one of seventeen units in Ap European History, and that the religious element of that unit is far less comprehensive than the social and political elements, so it is possible that there was stuff going on in individual churches or even sects that modified the sacrament of confession.  I would be surprised to find a papal change of doctrine, though, unless it was so minor as to not be mentioned in any of the histories of the period I have used.

You don't need a papal change of doctrine for even radical changes to take place. Think about the past few decades in the Catholic Church. The percentage of churchgoers going to confession has plunged, while the nature of the institution has changed (my understanding is that it has moved to be more often a face to face encounter).

Especially considering that one of the main attacks on the church involved the absolution of sins through indulgences, it would not surprise me if there were some practical changes as a response. Perhaps there was a focus on the spiritual aspects of confession versus the financial means of penance. I don't know, but it seems like a reasonable question for inquiry.

[Sheilbh]

I have a different understanding of indulgences.  They weren't absolution - that could only be granted via confession and certain acts - they were a portion of the 'treasury of souls'.  Basically you've got monks and nuns who sit around praying all day and you've got Saints who prayed a lot.  The amount of time their prayers are needed for themselves is very low, so the Church has a mass of unallotted prayers going around.  Indulgences is basically someone paying for x amount of prayers from the 'treasury of souls', the store cupboard of monastic life, which the Church then says knocks y number of years off of purgatory.  It's not absolution, you're not forgiven; it's time off.

So, for example, someone does lots of evil and then pays a big sum to an indulgence peddler.  If he doesn't go to confession he still goes to hell because he has not been absolved of those sins.  If he goes to confession then, absolved, he has to spend less time in purgatory than otherwise.

Incidentally indulgences still exist.  Though I don't think you can buy them any more.

[alfred russel]

I have a different understanding of indulgences.  They weren't absolution - that could only be granted via confession and certain acts - they were a portion of the 'treasury of souls'.  Basically you've got monks and nuns who sit around praying all day and you've got Saints who prayed a lot.  The amount of time their prayers are needed for themselves is very low, so the Church has a mass of unallotted prayers going around.  Indulgences is basically someone paying for x amount of prayers from the 'treasury of souls', the store cupboard of monastic life, which the Church then says knocks y number of years off of purgatory.  It's not absolution, you're not forgiven; it's time off.

So, for example, someone does lots of evil and then pays a big sum to an indulgence peddler.  If he doesn't go to confession he still goes to hell because he has not been absolved of those sins.  If he goes to confession then, absolved, he has to spend less time in purgatory than otherwise.

Incidentally indulgences still exist.  Though I don't think you can buy them any more.

Fair enough, I'm not especially knowledgeable about the ins and outs of theology or other esoteric superstitions.

[Sheilbh]

Fair enough, I'm not especially knowledgeable about the ins and outs of theology or other esoteric superstitions.

Everyone should read theology.  It's my favourite branch of abstract shit

[jimmy olsen]

Yeah, in my mother in law's (Southern Baptist) church people sometimes do that.  A couple of months ago this one dude stood up in front of the whole church and confessed that he was addicted to watching porno.  Wish I had been there to see that. 

How did the congregation react?

[Alatriste]

I don't know what "happened" to confession, but I know why Lutherans don't do it. Lutherans don't do it because they confess their sins to God, giving the local priest something to blackmail you with is not part of the deal.

Quite hard to blackmail someone when you are bound by the Secret of Confession... besides, the booths are built with a substantial physical barrier between priest and faithful, and latticework in order to provide a fair degree of anonymity, or at least plausible deniability (but interestingly enough, confession booths were adopted only by the Council of Trent, they didn't exist before the Reform)

[grumbler]

.... (but interestingly enough, confession booths were adopted only by the Council of Trent, they didn't exist before the Reform)

That is something Judas could use.

[Alatriste]

.... (but interestingly enough, confession booths were adopted only by the Council of Trent, they didn't exist before the Reform)

That is something Judas could use.

Indeed. I'm not an expert but this could be a good starting point

http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/westernciv/video/holt1.html

There was also a significant Catholic reformation that occurred in the sixteenth century, though in some ways it predated the Protestant efforts and was more than just a knee-jerk reaction to the defections of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Bucer and their followers from the church. Catholic reform had two principal outlets. The first was a very traditional means of settling disputes or dealing with crises: the pope called a church council. And when Pope Paul III convoked the Council of Trent in 1545, he could hardly have known that in addition to rejecting the Protestant heresies, the council would, in fact, over a period of the next eighteen years, ultimately embrace the very same two goals of Protestantism: transforming the religious experience of its members from a largely communal and social experience to more of an individual and intellectual experience, as well as recreating the kingdom of heaven on earth through stricter moral discipline.    The council achieved the first of these goals through a reformation of the sacraments. All those social bonds in the sacramental practices were excised in favor of those that stressed individual salvation. For example, in the sacrament of baptism the family's kinship links were severely cut back, as godparents were limited to two in number, and the sacrament had to be performed within three days of birth, largely to prevent a longer period for more distant relatives to arrive for the celebration. All these changes were designed to refocus the sacrament on its doctrinal function: the washing away of the stain of original sin. In the sacrament of penance, the public and communal confession of sins was transformed by the confessional box into a much more individual experience, the bright idea of one of the bishops at Trent, Carlo Borromeo. In contrast to the open and public experience depicted in Van der Weyden’s altarpiece of the sacraments, here we see a more private and individualized sacrament. Even the community of saints was de-emphasized, transformed from a collective cohort that could intervene with God on one's behalf into a much tamer and less active collection of role models for Christian behavior. Thus, although their theology still centered on every individual’s free will to follow or reject God rather than on predestination, Catholic reformers also sought to transform the religious experience of its members into a more individualized and more intellectual set of ideals.

[Caliga]

How did the congregation react?

I don't remember exactly what she told me, but I think it was something along the lines of "everyone was too shocked to react", but the dude started crying and I think Brother Tom hugged him in a homotastic show of sympathy and support.

I am under the impression that the blue haired old ladies that make up 75% of that church's congregation don't understand the concept of male sex drive, probably because when they were in their prime they dutifully assumed the missionary position nightly so their men didn't need to beat off/watch porn.

This guy, however, is married to a closeted lesbo (she's literally the most mannish woman I've ever encountered) and I know from Princesca and her grapevine gossip connections that they literally have no sexual relationship at all.

[alfred russel]

How did the congregation react?

I don't remember exactly what she told me, but I think it was something along the lines of "everyone was too shocked to react", but the dude started crying and I think Brother Tom hugged him in a homotastic show of sympathy and support.

I am under the impression that the blue haired old ladies that make up 75% of that church's congregation don't understand the concept of male sex drive, probably because when they were in their prime they dutifully assumed the missionary position nightly so their men didn't need to beat off/watch porn.

This guy, however, is married to a closeted lesbo (she's literally the most mannish woman I've ever encountered) and I know from Princesca and her grapevine gossip connections that they literally have no sexual relationship at all.

I feel bad for the guy. He can't divorce, can't cheat, and any solo action makes him so guilty he feels the need to publicly humiliate himself.