Just recently the American coach of the Norwegian Long Track Speed Skating team was fired after being accused of sexually harassing one of the female skaters. She charged him with sexual harassment after being called "a fucking cunt". Can calling a person "a fucking cunt" possibly in any way be seen as sexual harassment, or did she just prove him wrong by being one?
On an aside. While this issue has been going around in the Norwegian media the nature of the sexual harassment has been kept secret (basically nobody knew what the coach said). Once I found out what the coach said I was shocked that he got fired for that, not to mention the idea that calling somebody "a fucking cunt" can be seen as sexual harassment.
He should have known better than to try working in Scandinavia. They're a bunch of fucking cunts.
No, it's not sexual harassment, but they probably had to claim it is because you can't fire somebody just for being an asshole in Norway.
Clear as crystal.
I call people "fucking cunts" all the time; male or female! It's not sexual harassment, since it's applied in a sexually indiscriminate way (to all). I just think they need to keep their tampons in and get back to breast-feeding! ;)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 23, 2009, 09:34:51 PM
No, it's not sexual harassment, but they probably had to claim it is because you can't fire somebody just for being an asshole in Norway.
She accused him of sexual harrasment for calling her a "fucking cunt"
Then an investigation was ordered
Then he was fired for putting the norwegian olympic committee into disrepute
Sexual harrasment these days means pretty much anything that makes a woman feel uncomfortable.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 23, 2009, 10:14:23 PM
Sexual harrasment these days means pretty much anything that makes a woman feel uncomfortable.
The shouldn't go out to singles bars, or out in public even.
I would say it's situational. Ultimately, for Americans at least, "cunt" is primarily a misogynistic insult. I am lead to believe that's not the case in the UK, or perhaps Scandinavia.
Yeah, I don't know about the scandy equivalent to "cunt", but it wouldn't shock me in Canada to be accused of sexual harassment to use that word in the workplace.
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the scandy equivalent to "cunt", but it wouldn't shock me in Canada to be accused of sexual harassment to use that word in the workplace.
Jævla Fytte is the closest norwegian translation. It is not in good taste or even polite. But profanity is not harassment anywhere is it?
Athletes are not employees of their coaches. Futhermore, Peter Mueller is not her coach, she is an athlete with her own coach and participates representing norway.
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 11:14:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the scandy equivalent to "cunt", but it wouldn't shock me in Canada to be accused of sexual harassment to use that word in the workplace.
It is not in good taste or even polite. But profanity is not harassment anywhere is it?
Sexually harassing profanity is, of course.
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 11:14:09 PM
But profanity is not harassment anywhere is it?
Of course it can be. :huh:
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 23, 2009, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 11:14:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the scandy equivalent to "cunt", but it wouldn't shock me in Canada to be accused of sexual harassment to use that word in the workplace.
It is not in good taste or even polite. But profanity is not harassment anywhere is it?
Sexually harassing profanity is, of course.
so is a Sexually Harassing Capetan Mihali, but then again, I can use adjectives as well.
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2009, 11:33:06 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 11:14:09 PM
But profanity is not harassment anywhere is it?
Of course it can be. :huh:
I take it Johnny Cochrane never made the Sticks and Stones argument <_<
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 11:34:55 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 23, 2009, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 11:14:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the scandy equivalent to "cunt", but it wouldn't shock me in Canada to be accused of sexual harassment to use that word in the workplace.
It is not in good taste or even polite. But profanity is not harassment anywhere is it?
Sexually harassing profanity is, of course.
so is a Sexually Harassing Capetan Mihali, but then again, I can use adjectives as well.
:huh: Capetans Mihali are either iterations of this online persona, or the book from which the name comes, not of a category of speech that is by definition socially unacceptable at some level...
I think the phrase could be considered sexual harassment. Though, not if it were used against a man.
In the U.S., it absolutely could be considered sexual harrassment. Basically, harrassment on the job is anything that creates a hostile work environment. Of course, lots of things can create a hostile work environment, and there's nothing illegal about behavoir that creates a hostile work environment in general. But if a worker feels that the hostility is directed towards them because of their gender, race, etc., then it is illegal.
Given that in the U.S., calling a woman a "fucking cunt" would usually be considered on of the harshest insult you could throw at her, yeah, it would be considered sexual harrassment if she complained.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2009, 12:03:51 AM
I think the phrase could be considered sexual harassment. Though, not if it were used against a man.
I think it depends on the definition of sexual harassment. I think it was gender/sex-based ("sexist") harassment (an equivalent of calling a gay person a "faggot" or calling a black person a "nigger"), but I thought that sexual harassment means an unwelcome sexual advance or some sorts.
Here's a dictionary definition of sexual harassment:
"Sexual harassment is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors"
To me "sexual" means alluding to, involving or implying a sex act, and not just related to the gender of the person being harassed. For the record, I am not saying the guy should not be fired - to me it was clearly a case of gender-based abuse and it should be possible to fire someone for that just as it possible to fire someone for racist or homophobic harassment - but it does not fit the description of sexual harassment imo.
To summarise: sexual = related to sex understood in the context of sexuality; sexist = related to sex understood as biological gender.
I just hope there is gender equality in Norway, and if a woman calls a guy a "dick", she is fired as well.
Edit: I wonder if "asshole" would be fire-able offense if used against either gender or just men?
Reading this, I just realized I have been sexually harassed many times on the job. :cry:
Perhaps I should file a complaint. Maybe there's some money in it for me.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 02:35:30 AM
Here's a dictionary definition of sexual harassment:
"Sexual harassment is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors"
To me "sexual" means alluding to, involving or implying a sex act, and not just related to the gender of the person being harassed. For the record, I am not saying the guy should not be fired - to me it was clearly a case of gender-based abuse and it should be possible to fire someone for that just as it possible to fire someone for racist or homophobic harassment - but it does not fit the description of sexual harassment imo.
To summarise: sexual = related to sex understood in the context of sexuality; sexist = related to sex understood as biological gender.
As the lawyers on the board will tell you, dictionary definitions are of limited utility in understanding legal issues.
The use of the term "cunt" is, of course, crude and beyond the pale as far as professionalism is concerned, and if the guy is in an at-will employment situation, could easily serve as grounds for dismissal. A single use of the term is insufficient to establish sexual harassment on "hostile work environment" grounds in the US, and the victim has t have taken steps to get the guy to stop before she complains about sexual harassment (which may have happened here, of course).
So, I agree that the guy may well have crossed the line into legally verboten territory, but that isn't clear from what I have seen so far. We need to know how the relevant law, not the dictionary, defines sexual harassment if we want to say anything about whether or not he has broken it.
People from numerous jurisdictions have weighed in on how this is or is not sexual harassment - as such I believe we are not discussing the legal meaning of the term in Norway, but the "common sense" meaning - since otherwise the discussion would be moot.
As you can also see I said in my first post that this depends on the definition of sexual harassment. My second post is an extension of the first.
Seriously, it's kinda annoying to see you constantly "not get it". There is no point discussing Norwegian law unless you are a Norwegian lawyer. Since neither of us is, the only thing we can discuss is whether we think the behaviour like that should be considered sexual harassment. I presented arguments why I think it shouldn't - if you want to argue with me, present counter-arguments, not a lame "we don't know what Norwegian law says" non-answer.
From what I gather from Norwegian Law is that there must be a subordinate-superior relationship. Athletes are not employees of the sports committee which has hired the coach.
Which is probably why they went with the "conduct unbecoming" bit.
Furthermore, it seems my dodgy internet sources were wrong about what he said. He did not say "[she is]a fucking cunt" but rather "suck my dick". This was at a dinner in berlin. He was presumably drunk and has been known to frequently use colloquialisms.
This is a whole fuckup. This is what happens when newspapers make suggestive headlines without details. Then I go on the internet and try to find out the details.
Suck my dick sounds more like sexual harassment, yeah.
Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 07:36:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 02:35:30 AM
Here's a dictionary definition of sexual harassment:
"Sexual harassment is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors"
To me "sexual" means alluding to, involving or implying a sex act, and not just related to the gender of the person being harassed. For the record, I am not saying the guy should not be fired - to me it was clearly a case of gender-based abuse and it should be possible to fire someone for that just as it possible to fire someone for racist or homophobic harassment - but it does not fit the description of sexual harassment imo.
To summarise: sexual = related to sex understood in the context of sexuality; sexist = related to sex understood as biological gender.
As the lawyers on the board will tell you, dictionary definitions are of limited utility in understanding legal issues.
The use of the term "cunt" is, of course, crude and beyond the pale as far as professionalism is concerned, and if the guy is in an at-will employment situation, could easily serve as grounds for dismissal. A single use of the term is insufficient to establish sexual harassment on "hostile work environment" grounds in the US, and the victim has t have taken steps to get the guy to stop before she complains about sexual harassment (which may have happened here, of course).
So, I agree that the guy may well have crossed the line into legally verboten territory, but that isn't clear from what I have seen so far. We need to know how the relevant law, not the dictionary, defines sexual harassment if we want to say anything about whether or not he has broken it.
This is the correct analysis. In most Federal Circuits within the U.S. everyone gets essentially one free grab of the ass. Until and unless she says no or that she finds it offensive and the offender continues he has not actually created a sexually hostile work environment. The quid pro quo analysis differs a bit but that one's easy for anyone to spot.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 08:29:10 AM
Suck my dick sounds more like sexual harassment, yeah.
Not necessarily.
"Suck my dick if you want the promotion" is harassment.
"Suck my dick" may merely be foreplay if the advance is welcomed or non offensive to your co-woker.
It can still get you fired, but may not technically be sexual harassment.
I've called some of my straight male co-workers: cocktease, stud, handsome. Was this sexual harassment? :P The one I called cocktease was rather pleased with himself too - he kept laughing and making innuendos... And I wanted to fuck him all the more for it.
Why is it straight guys derive such apparent pleasure in making us salivate!? <_<
G.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 07:44:14 AM
People from numerous jurisdictions have weighed in on how this is or is not sexual harassment - as such I believe we are not discussing the legal meaning of the term in Norway, but the "common sense" meaning - since otherwise the discussion would be moot.
As you can also see I said in my first post that this depends on the definition of sexual harassment. My second post is an extension of the first.
And, as I pointed out, your dictionary definition adds nothing to the discussion, and I don't believe we are discussing the "common sense" definition, but rather whether or not this would be an offense in a specific jurisdiction.
QuoteSeriously, it's kinda annoying to see you constantly "not get it".
People who consistently "do not get it" always say this. :lol:
QuoteThere is no point discussing Norwegian law unless you are a Norwegian lawyer.
For you, thisd may be true. Others, however, are interested in discussing whether or not this dismissal for "sexual harassment" was sound from a legal standpoint. In order to have that discussion, we would need to discuss Norwegian law.
QuoteSince neither of us is, the only thing we can discuss is whether we think the behaviour like that should be considered sexual harassment.
That may, indeed, be the only thing you can discuss, but if so, you need to point out that the context of your dictionary definition is that you cannot discuss anything else.
QuoteI presented arguments why I think it shouldn't - if you want to argue with me, present counter-arguments, not a lame "we don't know what Norwegian law says" non-answer.
Your argument was the lame assertion that the 'dictionary definition' should define what sexual harassment is for legal purposes (though you are careful not to say which dictionary defines this phrase, and wisely so, since dictionaries don't define phrases). The argument that dictionary definitions shouldn't define legal terms is a compelling argument against your lame assertion.
Quote from: Grallon on November 24, 2009, 08:56:39 AM
I've called some of my straight male co-workers: cocktease, stud, handsome. Was this sexual harassment? :P The one I called cocktease was rather pleased with himself too - he kept laughing and making innuendos... And I wanted to fuck him all the more for it.
Why is it straight guys derive such apparent pleasure in making us salivate!? <_<
G.
Same reason Women like to do it to straight guys, Power.
Your definition is severely lacking, Marcin.
Sexual harassment does cover sexual advances, of course, but as someone else (I think dps) said, it would be anything that creates a hostile work environment based on gender or sexual orientation.
If all your office mates found out you were gay, and jokingly asked you out on fake dates as an office joke, that would be a clear cut case of sexual harassment, even though there was no real offer of sexual favors.
The things I've seen considered sexual harassment:
Inappropriate touching, repeated advances after being told the other person wasn't interested, inappropriate nicknames, inappropriate workplace conversations, all of the above based on sexual orientation. (ex: You shouldnt ask two lesbians to makeout at work :P )
It is expected some of the people I deal with wouldnt grasp sexual harassment, but I'm shocked to see some so called professions on this board have no clue what it is. I suppose its an American thing, because its the Euros who are all clueless.
There's a whole lot of shit that's highly unprofessional that the government should ignore. Most of that stuff falls in this category.
I disagree.
If the government didn't rules into place to help prevent these workplace situations, very few protections would exist for women/homosexuals. I guess as a man, and very likely an unattractive one, you might not see it, but uncomfortable situations like those don't belong in the workplace.
Quote from: Jaron on November 24, 2009, 09:54:22 AM
I guess as a man, and very likely an unattractive one,
:o
OMG Jaron's harassing me!
Quote from: Barrister on November 23, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
Yeah, I don't know about the scandy equivalent to "cunt", but it wouldn't shock me in Canada to be accused of sexual harassment to use that word in the workplace.
It would shock me to see a lawyer use that word in the workplace. Period.
"Your honour, you cunt, if I may."
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 24, 2009, 09:46:48 AM
There's a whole lot of shit that's highly unprofessional that the government should ignore. Most of that stuff falls in this category.
If the world were such a place that people exposed to harassment could easily leave the employer that allowed the harassment and take their skills to places that demanded more professionalism, I would agree. There is a level of workplace harassment or intimidation, though, that cannot be remedied by market forces in the world as it exists. I don't know who but the government could remedy this (since unions are so nerfed).
Quote from: Grallon on November 24, 2009, 08:56:39 AM
I've called some of my straight male co-workers: cocktease, stud, handsome. Was this sexual harassment? :P The one I called cocktease was rather pleased with himself too - he kept laughing and making innuendos... And I wanted to fuck him all the more for it.
Why is it straight guys derive such apparent pleasure in making us salivate!? <_<
G.
I think such behaviour would count as sexual harassment if it was indeed unwelcome.
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 10:16:44 AM
I think such behaviour would count as sexual harassment if it was indeed unwelcome.
Indeed - hence why I never go beyond a certain point - no touching for instance. And I modulate my... compliments depending on the person. The 'cocktease' and I have an understanding anyway. He tells me about his sexual boredom with his gf and I listen while I keep making my own innuendos and he laughs and plays along.
There's another, the one I call 'stud' (34, thining hair, soon-to-be dad but super fit and very masculine) - he's the one touching me - you know, laughing and putting a hand on my arm or shoulder. It's different for each.
Finally there's the cute lawer (33, looks 25-26 - newly wed - baby on the way)- he knows I fancy him but we never discussed it openly until recently where he mentioned he had been a gym trainer when he was younger. He said he was then 25 pounds (of muscles) heavier to which I replied: "you're perfect as you are now". :P
G.
This reminds me of one of my favourite movie lines. Though not, I'd like to point out, one of my favourite movies. From "I Bought A Vampire Motorcycle" by a drunk driver to a police officer:
"I haven't had a cunt all night, Drinkstable."
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 07:44:14 AM
There is no point discussing Norwegian law unless you are a Norwegian lawyer.
Can we get you to apply this rule in general?
Quote from: Viking on November 24, 2009, 08:28:12 AM
From what I gather from Norwegian Law is that there must be a subordinate-superior relationship. Athletes are not employees of the sports committee which has hired the coach.
If the coach is in a position of authority over an athlete, that can still be construed as the coach being ina superior-subordinate relationship with the athlete. Of course, I have no idea if it would be considered as such under Norwegian law.
Quote
"Suck my dick if you want the promotion" is harassment.
"Suck my dick" may merely be foreplay if the advance is welcomed or non offensive to your co-woker.
It can still get you fired, but may not technically be sexual harassment.
Or, depending on context, it might just be another way of saying, "Go to Hell".
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 10:08:25 PMShe accused him of sexual harrasment for calling her a "fucking cunt"
Then an investigation was ordered
Then he was fired for putting the norwegian olympic committee into disrepute
Why are you asking about someone being fired for sexual harassment when, according to what you say yourself, he was fired for bringing the Norwegian Olympic Committee into disrepute?
Quote from: Berkut on November 24, 2009, 12:36:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 07:44:14 AM
There is no point discussing Norwegian law unless you are a Norwegian lawyer.
Can we get you to apply this rule in general?
LOLz.
Quote from: Jacob on November 25, 2009, 12:28:58 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 23, 2009, 10:08:25 PMShe accused him of sexual harrasment for calling her a "fucking cunt"
Then an investigation was ordered
Then he was fired for putting the norwegian olympic committee into disrepute
Why are you asking about someone being fired for sexual harassment when, according to what you say yourself, he was fired for bringing the Norwegian Olympic Committee into disrepute?
Which is interesting, given the disrepute of Olympic Committees in general.
Quote from: Jacob on November 25, 2009, 12:28:58 AM
Why are you asking about someone being fired for sexual harassment when, according to what you say yourself, he was fired for bringing the Norwegian Olympic Committee into disrepute?
He didn't ask about someone being fired for sexual harassment, he asked about the charge of sexual harassment brought by the female athlete.