Canadian court has to determine if this fellow was a spy or not:
http://www.lawtimesnews.com/200911165805/Headline-News/What-is-a-spy
Brief Synopsis: guy worked for the russki army in electronic survelliance during his army service: told the truth about it in his immigration paperwork; gets rejected by some bureaucrat for being a spy. Is he?
I'm inclined to think "no", myself. What do our Languish spy experts think?
QuoteOTTAWA – A Federal Court judge will soon be tasked with answering a question that most likely hasn't come up in a Canadian courtroom before: what is a spy?
Gary Segal is representing Dmytro Afanasyev in his bid to prove he's not a spy so he can enter Canada.The question is key in the case of a 43-year-old law graduate from Ukraine who has been trying for nine years to get a visa to enter Canada as a permanent resident but has been refused because of his army service in the former Soviet Union.
Military service alone wouldn't normally prevent Dmytro Afanasyev, his wife, and their two children from immigrating to Canada from Ukraine.
But authorities have denied their entry because a visa officer at the Canadian Embassy in Warsaw, Poland, ruled Afanasyev was inadmissible because he engaged in espionage while he was a soldier.
But did he?
Toronto immigration lawyer Gary Segal, Afanasyev's counsel in a Federal Court appeal of the visa officer's ruling, says the answer is no.
Segal says the one-time conscript in the Soviet army who intercepted U.S. radio signals as a private in East Germany was not a spy. He was doing his job gathering military intelligence and had to follow orders.
In fact, Segal says, although Afanasyev could and still does speak English fluently, he had no idea what the encrypted information he transcribed and passed up the ladder meant.
The facts in the Federal Court file on the appeal appear straightforward. There is no allegation Afanasyev falsified information during his three visa application interviews.
He freely told the Canadians, apparently including Canadian Security Intelligence Service officers who interviewed him, about his military service.
The record is summed up in straightforward fashion in an Oct. 2, 2008, letter to Afanasyev from K.L. Erickson, the Warsaw Embassy's first secretary for immigration, who informed Afanasyev he was inadmissible on security grounds.
The letter told Afanasyev he was a "member of the inadmissible class of persons" under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act for "engaging in an act of espionage or an act of subversion against a democratic government, institution or process as they are understood in Canada" and for "being a member of an organization that there are reasonable grounds to believe engages, has engaged or will engage in" the acts.
The letter goes on to name the Soviet army unit Afanasyev belonged to from 1985 to 1987 and notes his training in radio intelligence that included interception and special NATO telegraphic codes.
It says his duties in Torgau, East Germany, entailed listening to English-language communications coming from U.S. bases in West Germany and identifying and "debriefing" various frequencies and telegraph codes.
The letter identifies Afanasyev's army unit, the 82nd Special Communications Brigade, 11th Company, 1st Platoon, as the "organization" the government has reasonable grounds to believe engaged in espionage.
"I have reached this conclusion because you made these admissions during your background investigation
interviews," the letter states.
But Segal and Peter Rekai, the Toronto lawyer who has represented Afanasyev during his lengthy visa application, argue he was engaging in military intelligence work, not espionage. Rekai made that case in letters to the Canadian Embassy that have been filed in Federal Court, while Segal is making it as Afanasyev's lawyer for the appeal.
"A spy is not what this guy was doing," says Segal. "He was an 18-year-old private listening to gobbledygook going through the air, writing down what he heard, and passing it along.
"That's part of military intelligence. All countries do it. I don't see it any different than 50,000 years ago some Neanderthal standing on one mountain in the sunlight, putting his hands over his eyes, and looking at the guys on the mountain across the valley and saying, 'There's seven guys over there.'"
Segal has asked the court to appoint a special advocate for the case — unusual for an immigration appeal — because federal lawyers redacted five pages of documents they had originally disclosed in uncensored form.
The court record also includes a three-page CSIS memo with redacted sentences and words that describe Afanasyev's response in one or more of his interviews. As of late last week, Segal said he hadn't yet seen the CSIS memo.
That memo appears to be the basis for a recommendation to the embassy from the security directorate at the Canada Border Services Agency to deny the entry visa.
The memo says Afanasyev denied he needed a security clearance to belong to his unit and notes he also told interviewers he lost his military record booklet. There is a reference as well to Afanasyev's father's service in the Soviet army as a translator.
The lawyers representing the federal government found themselves in the embarrassing position of seeking a court order that compelled Segal to return the five pages of documents they inadvertently filed as part of the record.
The documents contained the names of individuals CSIS was investigating as well as the names and telephone numbers of CSIS personnel. Segal had already taken steps to comply with a request to return them before the court granted the order.
Michel Drapeau, a prominent former Canadian army colonel who is now a practising lawyer and lecturer at the University of Ottawa law school, agrees with Segal.
"It may not be black and white but it's pretty close," says Drapeau. "Someone as a private, he is just doing his job, basically listening in. Based on what you're telling me, this guy is a member of the armed forces.
He basically did his job, which is legal under both national and international law, that is, doing a signaling interception, military counter-intelligence, and all the military all over the world, particularly a sophisticated one, does it."
The immigration officer seems to do a whole lot of interpretation in that report.
Doesn't being a spy require atleast some base requirement.
The first being in enemy territory.
Immigration officers have faaaar too much power. Visa denials are becoming routine stories these days.
That kind of thing wouldn't class as spying in my book. Generals have always stood on a hill opposite the enemy camp and looked over to get a idea of their numbers and the like.
Spying to me actually involves getting down and diry and physically going in amongst the enemy.
Quote from: Josephus on November 17, 2009, 10:36:25 AM
Immigration officers have faaaar too much power. Visa denials are becoming routine stories these days.
Who should have the power to deny visas then?
An essential element in being a spy is pretending to be someone protected from arrest by the other side, in order to collect information or inflict damage/casualties. Spying is a crime.
However, espionage is not simply the action of spies collecting data or sabotaging things any more. It is the collection of information another government wishes to keep secret, and is done via all kinds of methods that don't involve spies, including things that this guy did. Non-spy espionage is not a crime.
The key seems to be whether or not he was engaged in espionage against a "democratic government, institution or process as they are understood in Canada." I would say that he was not. His targets were military, and militaries are not democratic institutions, nor governments, nor processes.
While the question of what is a spy is interesting, it is not as interesting as the question what is a jew. :Joos
Whatever a spy is, it's not that guy.
As an uneducated guess, I'd add to grumbler's post and say you've really got three distinct classes: surveillance, intelligence-gathering and noncovert espionage, and covert espionage. If I were counsel for this guy, I would say that the Canadian government can only assume the Russian unit this guy worked for was carrying out its assignments lawfully unless they have some significant evidence to the contrary, which should be disclosed (not publicly, but at least to interested parties) in the case of a rejection.
Quote from: Neil on November 17, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on November 17, 2009, 10:36:25 AM
Immigration officers have faaaar too much power. Visa denials are becoming routine stories these days.
Who should have the power to deny visas then?
Me.
He's as much as spy as is Tonitrus and Ank.
Which is to say he is.
He's probably a spy for unrelated reasons. Better safe than sorry.
A spy is a really delicious variety of apple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Spy
Quote from: Scipio on November 17, 2009, 06:08:20 PM
A spy is a really delicious variety of apple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Spy
Well, that would add a Monty Pythonesque level of surrealism to the court case.
Quote from: Josephus on November 17, 2009, 12:19:21 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 17, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on November 17, 2009, 10:36:25 AM
Immigration officers have faaaar too much power. Visa denials are becoming routine stories these days.
Who should have the power to deny visas then?
Me.
You're too softhearted. Only I can be relied upon to dispense visas, justice and honours.
Quote from: Neil on November 17, 2009, 06:24:39 PM
Quote from: Josephus on November 17, 2009, 12:19:21 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 17, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Quote from: Josephus on November 17, 2009, 10:36:25 AM
Immigration officers have faaaar too much power. Visa denials are becoming routine stories these days.
Who should have the power to deny visas then?
Me.
You're too softhearted. Only I can be relied upon to dispense visas, justice and honours.
I'd like a QC please. :)
I would say that he's not a spy given the information presented.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2009, 06:28:30 PM
I would say that he's not a spy given the information presented.
Yeah, but we've seen a lot of news stories linked or posted that mis-stated or left out a lot of information, especially recently.
If he was a real spy he'd have a Canadian passport, no problem.
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2009, 10:35:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2009, 06:28:30 PM
I would say that he's not a spy given the information presented.
Yeah, but we've seen a lot of news stories linked or posted that mis-stated or left out a lot of information, especially recently.
That's why I specified "given the information presented".
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 19, 2009, 03:17:09 AM
Quote from: dps on November 18, 2009, 10:35:48 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 18, 2009, 06:28:30 PM
I would say that he's not a spy given the information presented.
Yeah, but we've seen a lot of news stories linked or posted that mis-stated or left out a lot of information, especially recently.
That's why I specified "given the information presented".
Yeah, I was just agreeing with you and amplifying the point a bit.
Quote from: dps on November 19, 2009, 06:57:34 PMYeah, I was just agreeing with you and amplifying the point a bit.
You should just have agreed with him, and perhaps emphasized his point further.
The term "spy" is so vague as to become irrelevant in this context.
In my opinion,
Should he be barred entry for having worked in military intelligence? Not unless he is a present security risk which from the sound of the article doesn't seem to be the case.
Should he be barred entry for being a filthy fucking slav? Sure.
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 07:44:40 PM
Should he be barred entry for being a filthy fucking slav? Sure.
That's like half the population of Canada dude.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2009, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 07:44:40 PM
Should he be barred entry for being a filthy fucking slav? Sure.
That's like half the population of Canada dude.
I'm not a huge fan of Canadians to begin with.
But I do know this: There is not one race on this planet that can benefit from being polluted by Slavs. Even Danes.
Indeed. BB is a Slav.
The key to making a Slav into a person is to raise them into Western culture, rather than their filthy native beliefs. Thus, BB > Martinus.
Quote from: Neil on November 19, 2009, 07:50:51 PM
Indeed. BB is a Slav.
The key to making a Slav into a person is to raise them into Western culture, rather than their filthy native beliefs. Thus, BB > Martinus.
You may get a dog to act like a wolf by raising it in a wolfpack, but at the end of the day it's still just a fucking mutt, and its get will likely be rabid and dangerous to people.
I like BB well enough, but dressing him up in people clothes doesn't make him any less of a Slav and it's cruel to pretend otherwise.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2009, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 07:44:40 PM
Should he be barred entry for being a filthy fucking slav? Sure.
That's like half the population of Canada dude.
:yes:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigthings.ca%2Falberta%2Fpictures%2Fpyrogy1.jpg&hash=407fa5b3cac69147deeabdfe5b89fab838911820)
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 07:56:39 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 19, 2009, 07:50:51 PM
Indeed. BB is a Slav.
The key to making a Slav into a person is to raise them into Western culture, rather than their filthy native beliefs. Thus, BB > Martinus.
You may get a dog to act like a wolf by raising it in a wolfpack, but at the end of the day it's still just a fucking mutt, and its get will likely be rabid and dangerous to people.
I like BB well enough, but dressing him up in people clothes doesn't make him any less of a Slav and it's cruel to pretend otherwise.
And this coming from a swede of all people. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 07:56:39 PM
You may get a dog to act like a wolf by raising it in a wolfpack, but at the end of the day it's still just a fucking mutt, and its get will likely be rabid and dangerous to people.
I like BB well enough, but dressing him up in people clothes doesn't make him any less of a Slav and it's cruel to pretend otherwise.
He upholds the law.
Besides, it's not like the Slavs are inferior to Scandinavians.
Quote from: Barrister on November 19, 2009, 07:59:14 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigthings.ca%2Falberta%2Fpictures%2Fpyrogy1.jpg&hash=407fa5b3cac69147deeabdfe5b89fab838911820)
Now we know what happened to Angerbutt's wall.
Quote from: Neil on November 19, 2009, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 07:56:39 PM
You may get a dog to act like a wolf by raising it in a wolfpack, but at the end of the day it's still just a fucking mutt, and its get will likely be rabid and dangerous to people.
I like BB well enough, but dressing him up in people clothes doesn't make him any less of a Slav and it's cruel to pretend otherwise.
He upholds the law.
Besides, it's not like the Slavs are inferior to Scandinavians.
Nice try, but I don't bite on statements that are so obviously fallacious.
You need to embrace your heritage sooner or later, Neil. :hug:
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 08:30:13 PM
Nice try, but I don't bite on statements that are so obviously fallacious.
Allow me to provide you with an example. The Russian are superior because their treatment of Islam is better. The annihilation of the Chechens is better than allowing Stockholm to turn into a den of non-whites. Say what you will about the brutish stupidity that every cultural Slav exhibits, at least they have the moral courage to stand up for something, anything.
QuoteYou need to embrace your heritage sooner or later, Neil. :hug:
Why must I? Heritage is things that happened to me long ago. Why not live in the now?
Quote from: Neil on November 19, 2009, 08:35:25 PM
Quote from: Slargos on November 19, 2009, 08:30:13 PM
Nice try, but I don't bite on statements that are so obviously fallacious.
Allow me to provide you with an example. The Russian are superior because their treatment of Islam is better. The annihilation of the Chechens is better than allowing Stockholm to turn into a den of non-whites. Say what you will about the brutish stupidity that every cultural Slav exhibits, at least they have the moral courage to stand up for something, anything.
QuoteYou need to embrace your heritage sooner or later, Neil. :hug:
Why must I? Heritage is things that happened to me long ago. Why not live in the now?
That was below the belt. :weep:
Quote from: Barrister on November 17, 2009, 12:28:19 PM
He's as much as spy as is Tonitrus and Ank.
Which is to say he is.
Tonitrus is definitely not a spy. Ank, well, I'm not sure what he actually does.
What makes a spy in your opinion.