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This was definitely the best day in German history. While I can't really remember it (being 7 years old then), reading and hearing about it now brings tears to my eyes.
The 9th November is generally considered the "Day of Fate" for Germany as it also saw the Reichskristallnacht, the Beer Hall Putsch, the proclamation of the republic in 1919, and the execution of Robert Blum which signified the end of the Liberal Revolution in 1848.
I was going to go the celebration being held, but I didn't feel like standing in the cold to see Lech Walesa and Bon Jovi. :huh:
Heh, for me at least the Cold War is not ancient history - it seems so odd that it is already for some.
But I was moved by the temporary domino art installation and when I happened upon the East Side Gallery.
I remember it well. Young people suck.
Man I remember that day. I still consider it the most historic event to occur in my lifetime. It is not even close.
It never occured to me I would see the Cold War end...and then it happened seemingly over night and it was all over and the world was never the same since.
Pity you are too young to remember it clearly, it was a great day :cool:
There were a number of them round about that time, it was wonderful watching the Evil Empire lose it's grip throughout Eastern Europe :D
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:38:35 PM
There were a number of them round about that time, it was wonderful watching the Evil Empire lose it's grip throughout Eastern Europe :D
One of my father's friends in school was a Romanian immigrant, I remember my dad bringing home a bottle of champagne when he heard Nicolae Ceauşescu was dead. It was Christmas as I recall.
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
:beer:
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2009, 12:35:04 PM
I was going to go the celebration being held, but I didn't feel like standing in the cold to see Lech Walesa and Bon Jovi. :huh:
Hillary was there too. ;)
What are you doing in Berlin? It's a lousy time of the year to visit unless you are there especially for these celebrations.
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 12:57:54 PM
What are you doing in Berlin? It's a lousy time of the year to visit unless you are there especially for these celebrations.
Actually I've decided to leave my hotel as soon as I finish working. I'm in Berlin for work. And yes, I am freezing!
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 12:57:54 PM
Hillary was there too. ;)
I'll admit that I bought the issue of Time with Hillary on the front as soon as I saw it. With the current exchange rate, I paid about $7 for Time. :Embarrass:
The price of East Germany memorabilia has gone through the roof :(
I was in both West and East Berlin in August 1989. There was a place near the Brandenburg gate where memorial crosses were erected to commemorate people who had been shot trying to cross the wall. I saw that one of the crosses was dated just a few months earlier.
Seeing East Berlin was a real experience. Everything and everyone was lifeless compared to the dynamic atmosphere of West Berlin. I would never have guessed that something so momentus would happen just weeks later.
Seeing the wall come down on TV was a very moving moment.
On a personal note it sure makes me feel old to hear the interviews of germans in their teens and early twenties who really dont have much of an idea of how important this event was.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
It was like everything and anything was possible now that the cold war was ending. How did we go so wrong? :(
Well, I was 13 at the time, a late Cold War kid with nuclear warheads less than two miles from my house. While it was a quite euphoric and tumultous time (in all of Europe) it's not been something with "direct" impact on me at that point. I had no relatives there, was two hours away from the border (my family had no car) and to this day I haven't been to any other city over there except a short class day trip to Wismar in 1991, a visit to Dresden in 1998 and to Leipzig in 2007. Still haven't been to Berlin, either.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
It was like everything and anything was possible now that the cold war was ending. How did we go so wrong? :(
Events, dear boy, events. :bowler:
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
It was like everything and anything was possible now that the cold war was ending. How did we go so wrong? :(
It's not exactly all sunshine and roses, but I'll take 2009 over 1989 any day.
But it's only because in 2009, you get to have sex on a regular basis.
Quote from: Barrister on November 09, 2009, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
It was like everything and anything was possible now that the cold war was ending. How did we go so wrong? :(
It's not exactly all sunshine and roses, but I'll take 2009 over 1989 any day.
I happened to have liked 1999.
Quote from: Barrister on November 09, 2009, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
It was like everything and anything was possible now that the cold war was ending. How did we go so wrong? :(
It's not exactly all sunshine and roses, but I'll take 2009 over 1989 any day.
Ok, but how old were you in 1989? It was a magical time. In hindsight we can look back and see that the euphoria was overly optimistic but the sense of euphoria was real.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:45:21 PM
Ok, but how old were you in 1989? It was a magical time. In hindsight we can look back and see that the euphoria was overly optimistic but the sense of euphoria was real.
From a pic you'd think he wasn't even born in '89.
I was only 8 when this happened. I vaguely recall it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:45:21 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 09, 2009, 02:26:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:14:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
That era was rather unique as good news just kept coming.
It was like everything and anything was possible now that the cold war was ending. How did we go so wrong? :(
It's not exactly all sunshine and roses, but I'll take 2009 over 1989 any day.
Ok, but how old were you in 1989? It was a magical time. In hindsight we can look back and see that the euphoria was overly optimistic but the sense of euphoria was real.
You misunderstand me. I meant today versus the time when the Berlin Wall still stood. We haven't gone all wrong - things have gone much better since the fall of communism.
I was 14 in 1989, so I remember it well.
I also remember that day; a very historic day to me. I grew up through some of the height of the Cold War, like some of you others here, so that day seemed such a huge happening. It was a surprise, apparently the wall coming down wasn't expected or planned really. It was after years of some change and easing up of things in some Eastern Block countries, Poland especially with Solidarty, and Hungary.
To this day it amazes me the mind set to gun down citizens trying to leave the country. The leaders had to know they had problems when they needed fences, barbed wire, land mines, and guards with orders to shoot to kill. What a travesty.
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 02:17:04 PMStill haven't been to Berlin, either.
You've missed out. I can't understand how there are Germans that have never been to Berlin. :huh:
I've seen Wings of Desire so I don't need to go to Berlin.
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 02:17:04 PMStill haven't been to Berlin, either.
You've missed out. I can't understand how there are Germans that have never been to Berlin. :huh:
Like Americans who haven't been to NYC? :unsure:
Quote from: katmai on November 09, 2009, 03:03:33 PM
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 02:17:04 PMStill haven't been to Berlin, either.
You've missed out. I can't understand how there are Germans that have never been to Berlin. :huh:
Like Americans who haven't been to NYC? :unsure:
Some Americans have to travel a lot farther to get to NYC than do any germans to get to Berlin.
Quote from: Barrister on November 09, 2009, 03:05:47 PM
[
Some Americans have to travel a lot farther to get to NYC than do any germans to get to Berlin.
I know, i realized it as a Martinquese analogy as soon as i typed it.
I remember that. :)
Do they still sell those little chunks of wall? I think my dad has one somewhere from immediately afterward when everyone was cashing in on that shit.
Edit: They do, and they've gotten pricier (I think).
I don't remember the fall of the wall itself, though I was aware something was happening in Europe. I clearly remember the execution of Caesescu.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 02:11:30 PM
On a personal note it sure makes me feel old to hear the interviews of germans in their teens and early twenties who really dont have much of an idea of how important this event was.
American kids to. They consider 9/11 the most important event in history and to me that was nothing compared to the Cold War ending.
But if you never experienced the Cold War you sort of take its ending for granted and do not really appreciate how different the world was back then. Nobody back in 1988 could have known the Soviet Union would not still be around in 2009. I took a Russian History class and one of our books was "Mikhail Gorbachev, leading the Soviet Union into the 21st century" published in early 1989.
What people who did not live through that era fail to realize is the fact that during the Cold War the potential for nuclear war was taken very seriously, and along with it the potential end of the world.
The "threat" posed by a bunch of medieval Islamicist fuckers hiding in caves in Tora Bora or wherever doesn't come even close to the same level of anxiety.
I wonder if people could have guessed that the new order would look like the old order in 1989.
I still remember seeing the images on TV back then but I could hardly grasp the momentousness of it all as I was only 9.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 09, 2009, 03:40:22 PM
I wonder if people could have guessed that the new order would look like the old order in 1989.
It looks like the old order? I am not sure what you are getting at.
I do remember how I went to "drüben" (col. for "the other side") the first time with my parents. I lived in Lübeck at the time, which is right on the former border. We parked on the Western side and crossed the death strip to a small village. It was all so drab and grey in that village.
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
I do remember how I went to "drüben" (col. for "the other side") the first time with my parents. I lived in Lübeck at the time, which is right on the former border. We parked on the Western side and crossed the death strip to a small village. It was all so drab and grey in that village.
Cool, so East Germany was black and white, and West Germany was in brilliant Technicolor? I think I saw that kinda thing in a movie once.
"Ach, mein hund Toto, ve ist not in Leipzig anymore!"
Yeah, Nov. 9th '89 was a strange day for me, as well. At that time i was knee-deep in the Submarine Security Program, designed to prevent the Bad Guys from ever detecting our boomers. The lengths we went to seem quite fantastic these days, but the price of failure was potentially so high that any countermeasures seemed worthwhile.
Within months, the job we were doing became obviously redundant (even though it was still being funded) and I started my second masters degree, in education. My timing was pretty good - I was given notice about a week before I would have give them notice!
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 03:38:30 PM
What people who did not live through that era fail to realize is the fact that during the Cold War the potential for nuclear war was taken very seriously, and along with it the potential end of the world.
The "threat" posed by a bunch of medieval Islamicist fuckers hiding in caves in Tora Bora or wherever doesn't come even close to the same level of anxiety.
Very true. I feared a nuclear war; didn't really expect since I felt the Soviets didn't want an end to the world either. But it was a real fear that events could cause it.
As for Islamic radicals. I have no doubt that if they could get hold of a nuke that they'd use it, try to find a way. That's quite scary as they aren't a nation and have no fear of nuclear retaliation, and they're fanatical enough to do the act. Or they'd at least try to use nuclear materials in a dirty bomb type attack.
Were they any good at detecting your submarines?
Quote from: KRonn on November 09, 2009, 04:05:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 03:38:30 PM
What people who did not live through that era fail to realize is the fact that during the Cold War the potential for nuclear war was taken very seriously, and along with it the potential end of the world.
The "threat" posed by a bunch of medieval Islamicist fuckers hiding in caves in Tora Bora or wherever doesn't come even close to the same level of anxiety.
Very true. I feared a nuclear war; didn't really expect since I felt the Soviets didn't want an end to the world either. But it was a real fear that events could cause it.
As for Islamic radicals. I have no doubt that if they could get hold of a nuke that they'd use it, try to find a way. That's quite scary as they aren't a nation and have no fear of nuclear retaliation, and they're fanatical enough to do the act. Or they'd at least try to use nuclear materials in a dirty bomb type attack.
I have no doubt that they are capable of doing great damage, maybe even getting ahold of a nuke and using it.
What they are unlikely to do, is ever have the sort of world-ending capacity that an exchange between the USSR and the US would have had.
Anyone else ever do the duck and cover drill? I think it went out of fashion in the 60s in the US, but we did it a little longer in Korea, being on the front lines as it were.
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 04:13:31 PM
Quote from: KRonn on November 09, 2009, 04:05:03 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 03:38:30 PM
What people who did not live through that era fail to realize is the fact that during the Cold War the potential for nuclear war was taken very seriously, and along with it the potential end of the world.
The "threat" posed by a bunch of medieval Islamicist fuckers hiding in caves in Tora Bora or wherever doesn't come even close to the same level of anxiety.
Very true. I feared a nuclear war; didn't really expect since I felt the Soviets didn't want an end to the world either. But it was a real fear that events could cause it.
As for Islamic radicals. I have no doubt that if they could get hold of a nuke that they'd use it, try to find a way. That's quite scary as they aren't a nation and have no fear of nuclear retaliation, and they're fanatical enough to do the act. Or they'd at least try to use nuclear materials in a dirty bomb type attack.
I have no doubt that they are capable of doing great damage, maybe even getting ahold of a nuke and using it.
What they are unlikely to do, is ever have the sort of world-ending capacity that an exchange between the USSR and the US would have had.
Agreed on that.
Quote from: Caliga on November 09, 2009, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
I do remember how I went to "drüben" (col. for "the other side") the first time with my parents. I lived in Lübeck at the time, which is right on the former border. We parked on the Western side and crossed the death strip to a small village. It was all so drab and grey in that village.
Cool, so East Germany was black and white, and West Germany was in brilliant Technicolor? I think I saw that kinda thing in a movie once.
"Ach, mein hund Toto, ve ist not in Leipzig anymore!"
That was what it felt like. I remember seeing a "band" play in a park in East Berlin. It was a warm beautiful day and I was sitting in a cafe very close to where the band was playing. The first thing that struck me was that the band was virtually motionless. The were moving their hands to hit the right notes on their instruments but everything else about them was motionless. The performed with a complete lack of any emotion. Then it struck me that everyone around me (with the exception of some other western tourists) were also completely emotionless.
From Potsdamer Platz:
It was raining most of the time and my clothes got quite drenched although I kept dry. Oh well.
The domino falling bit was cool to see (I could hear them falling before I first saw them falling), although because they did the cascades in 3 parts, it kind of made each part somewhat anticlimactic.
Managed to get there at the start, so I saw everyone's speeches (although obviously, I only understand bits and pieces of the German ones). Via crowd reception, the three politicians I recognized who got cheers throughout their speeches: Sarkozy, Merkel and Clinton. Politicians who only received starting/ending approbation: Gorbachev, Walesa, Brown and Obama via a taped message. I saw late in the schedule that Medvedev spoke but I guess I didn't recognize him.
Bon Jovi seemed rather toolish, especially when they showed footage of John spray painting the Berlin Wall and carving out a piece of it in 1989.
Overall, a rather good and very large crowd. There was a good energy about the gathering. :)
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 09, 2009, 05:10:11 PM
Quote from: Caliga on November 09, 2009, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
I do remember how I went to "drüben" (col. for "the other side") the first time with my parents. I lived in Lübeck at the time, which is right on the former border. We parked on the Western side and crossed the death strip to a small village. It was all so drab and grey in that village.
Cool, so East Germany was black and white, and West Germany was in brilliant Technicolor? I think I saw that kinda thing in a movie once.
"Ach, mein hund Toto, ve ist not in Leipzig anymore!"
That was what it felt like. I remember seeing a "band" play in a park in East Berlin. It was a warm beautiful day and I was sitting in a cafe very close to where the band was playing. The first thing that struck me was that the band was virtually motionless. The were moving their hands to hit the right notes on their instruments but everything else about them was motionless. The performed with a complete lack of any emotion. Then it struck me that everyone around me (with the exception of some other western tourists) were also completely emotionless.
Sounds like a description of "The Village" from
The Prisoner. ;)
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
I do remember how I went to "drüben" (col. for "the other side") the first time with my parents. I lived in Lübeck at the time, which is right on the former border. We parked on the Western side and crossed the death strip to a small village. It was all so drab and grey in that village.
I've been to Lübeck, cool town. It was in 92 and I went to Schwerin as well. There were still Russian troops in and around the city. Took a lake cruise and saw the castle/palace thing.
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on November 09, 2009, 03:12:54 PM
I remember that. :)
Do they still sell those little chunks of wall? I think my dad has one somewhere from immediately afterward when everyone was cashing in on that shit.
Edit: They do, and they've gotten pricier (I think).
I remember hearing from my father that so-called "chunks of the Berlin Wall "were appearing in the Parisian flea markets :lol:
I was 12 by then so I definitively have memories.
I havn't been to Berlin but then I have not been living in Germany for long unlike Syt :P
Quote from: Zanza on November 09, 2009, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Syt on November 09, 2009, 02:17:04 PMStill haven't been to Berlin, either.
You've missed out. I can't understand how there are Germans that have never been to Berlin. :huh:
The city never struck me as particularly interesting. However, in the past years a couple friends have been there and recommend it, so I may go eventually. I've also never been to Munich, Nürnberg or Köln.
I used to lack the money for such trips, now I lack the time.
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 03:38:30 PM
What people who did not live through that era fail to realize is the fact that during the Cold War the potential for nuclear war was taken very seriously, and along with it the potential end of the world.
The "threat" posed by a bunch of medieval Islamicist fuckers hiding in caves in Tora Bora or wherever doesn't come even close to the same level of anxiety.
But many people seem to have a fixed amount of worrying capacity; so a bunch of medieval wankers gets elevated to the same degree of threat once possessed by the USSR, the Nazis, or the mass poverty of the interwar period. It's all rather odd.
Quote from: Syt on November 10, 2009, 03:14:36 AM
I've also never been to Munich
:blink: Jesus, *I've* been to Munich. I just kind of assume Euros are well-travelled (moreso than typical Americans) and have been to every major city in their country. Never would have guessed otherwise, aside from cases of people who are really poor or something.
Americans travel a lot more then the Euros, especially domestically.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 10, 2009, 08:24:57 AM
Americans travel a lot more then the Euros, especially domestically.
:huh:
Well this is what Languish is all about: undoing assumptions about foreigners. :)
Before Languish, for example, I would have assumed that there were no homosexuals in Poland. :yes:
anyhow, the fall of the Wall was like my generation's Apollo moon landing. it was BIG.
grats Germany. We are all jelly donuts.
Quote from: Caliga on November 10, 2009, 08:31:19 AM
Before Languish, for example, I would have assumed that there were no homosexuals in Poland. :yes:
What convinced you otherwise?
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 10, 2009, 08:24:57 AM
Americans travel a lot more then the Euros, especially domestically.
So what do Euros do with all that vacation?
Quote from: garbon on November 10, 2009, 08:40:51 AM
What convinced you otherwise?
He found out it's a catholic nation.
Quote from: Maximus on November 10, 2009, 08:44:08 AM
He found out it's a catholic nation.
:yes: Previously I thought only Jews lived there. :(
Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2009, 12:35:04 PM
I was going to go the celebration being held, but I didn't feel like standing in the cold to see Lech Walesa and Bon Jovi. :huh:
Did you see the clip of Walesa pushing the domino and then accidentally tripping and knocking down a cameraman and some tv equipment? It's hilarious. :D
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:38:35 PM
Pity you are too young to remember it clearly, it was a great day :cool:
There were a number of them round about that time, it was wonderful watching the Evil Empire lose it's grip throughout Eastern Europe :D
Germans were late-comers. We got out of the soviet rule 6 months earlier.
Quote from: Martinus on November 10, 2009, 08:46:42 AM
Did you see the clip of Walesa pushing the domino and then accidentally tripping and knocking down a cameraman and some tv equipment? It's hilarious. :D
No, I didn't see that. The video screen cut away and followed the falling dominoes. Actually, I believe at first that the screen froze and then cut away.
Quote from: Caliga on November 10, 2009, 08:21:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 10, 2009, 03:14:36 AM
I've also never been to Munich
:blink: Jesus, *I've* been to Munich. I just kind of assume Euros are well-travelled (moreso than typical Americans) and have been to every major city in their country. Never would have guessed otherwise, aside from cases of people who are really poor or something.
I'm really not sure which group of people travel more than the other, but the travelling to every major city in their country is certainly not something most Europeans would contemplate. That means I'd have to spend my holidays in places like Birmingham and Nottingham, which would be madness when i can so easily travel to France, Spain, Germany.. :D
Quote from: Martinus on November 10, 2009, 08:48:09 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:38:35 PM
Pity you are too young to remember it clearly, it was a great day :cool:
There were a number of them round about that time, it was wonderful watching the Evil Empire lose it's grip throughout Eastern Europe :D
Germans were late-comers. We got out of the soviet rule 6 months earlier.
Yes, I remember, plus the earlier ructions back in 1980 or so. You Poles didn't make very good commies though, whereas the DDR was a good solid attempt by the Germans :D
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:03:34 AM
I'm really not sure which group of people travel more than the other, but the travelling to every major city in their country is certainly not something most Europeans would contemplate. That means I'd have to spend my holidays in places like Birmingham and Nottingham, which would be madness when i can so easily travel to France, Spain, Germany.. :D
I dunno, I just figured you'd been to, say, Birmingham on business or to visit cousins or for a class trip or something. :ph34r:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 03:48:57 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 03:38:30 PM
What people who did not live through that era fail to realize is the fact that during the Cold War the potential for nuclear war was taken very seriously, and along with it the potential end of the world.
The "threat" posed by a bunch of medieval Islamicist fuckers hiding in caves in Tora Bora or wherever doesn't come even close to the same level of anxiety.
But many people seem to have a fixed amount of worrying capacity; so a bunch of medieval wankers gets elevated to the same degree of threat once possessed by the USSR, the Nazis, or the mass poverty of the interwar period. It's all rather odd.
This is odd indeed. Though I'd make an exception for the Great Depression & the War--that had an impact on people that lived through it far beyond the mere anxiety factor. To the end of her days, my grandmother stored away bits of string and elastic bands, in case the Great Depression came back ...
I went to a crap party in Birmingham in 1975 and haven't been there since :D
It is true though that I have been to nearly all the sizable British cities for one reason or another, mainly by accident rather than design.
Quote from: Malthus on November 10, 2009, 09:14:31 AM
This is odd indeed. Though I'd make an exception for the Great Depression & the War--that had an impact on people that lived through it far beyond the mere anxiety factor. To the end of her days, my grandmother stored away bits of string and elastic bands, in case the Great Depression came back ...
My grandpa was the same; used to save paper bags to write shopping lists and notes on, kept little heels of soap then welded them together to make a new bar.......and so on. This despite the fact that he got a good job in 1934 and was financially secure from that point on. Of course the 1920s were really bad for him.
Quote from: DickBut many people seem to have a fixed amount of worrying capacity; so a bunch of medieval wankers gets elevated to the same degree of threat once possessed by the USSR, the Nazis, or the mass poverty of the interwar period. It's all rather odd.
I don't know, to the average schmuck who looks at all this emotionally, there isn't much difference between the fear that some nameless terrorist is going to blow up your plane and some anmeless Soviet will nuke you into oblivion.
They are both rather ethereal, yet rather frightening possibilities. neither is very likely, but on the other hand, the fear is largely impervious to rational response. Whether I get nuked (and the rest of the country along with me) or whether me and a few hundred of my closest friends get blown up on the way to visit Aunt Marge doesn't really matter, I don't think.
The average person spending any time or energy worrying about either threat is irrational.
Quote from: Caliga on November 10, 2009, 08:21:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on November 10, 2009, 03:14:36 AM
I've also never been to Munich
:blink: Jesus, *I've* been to Munich. I just kind of assume Euros are well-travelled (moreso than typical Americans) and have been to every major city in their country. Never would have guessed otherwise, aside from cases of people who are really poor or something.
I was on welfare most of my time while I grew up, so ...
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:17:39 AM
I went to a crap party in Birmingham in 1975 and haven't been there since :D
It is true though that I have been to nearly all the sizable British cities for one reason or another, mainly by accident rather than design.
I have Newcastle on my list.
Quote from: Berkut on November 10, 2009, 09:23:13 AM
Quote from: DickBut many people seem to have a fixed amount of worrying capacity; so a bunch of medieval wankers gets elevated to the same degree of threat once possessed by the USSR, the Nazis, or the mass poverty of the interwar period. It's all rather odd.
I don't know, to the average schmuck who looks at all this emotionally, there isn't much difference between the fear that some nameless terrorist is going to blow up your plane and some anmeless Soviet will nuke you into oblivion.
They are both rather ethereal, yet rather frightening possibilities. neither is very likely, but on the other hand, the fear is largely impervious to rational response. Whether I get nuked (and the rest of the country along with me) or whether me and a few hundred of my closest friends get blown up on the way to visit Aunt Marge doesn't really matter, I don't think.
The average person spending any time or energy worrying about either threat is irrational.
Hmmm........of course it doesn't matter if an individual stops bothering about such things and chooses to ignore them. OTOH we are asked to vote every now and then and
en masse have an influence on government policy.
Quote from: Syt on November 10, 2009, 12:44:55 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:17:39 AM
I went to a crap party in Birmingham in 1975 and haven't been there since :D
It is true though that I have been to nearly all the sizable British cities for one reason or another, mainly by accident rather than design.
I have Newcastle on my list.
Newcastle is one of the better ones IMO, but I'm biassed as it's the local metropolis for my hometown.
Quote from: Caliga on November 10, 2009, 08:21:22 AM
I just kind of assume Euros are well-travelled (moreso than typical Americans) and have been to every major city in their country.
You'd be wrong. Many of my friends have travelled very little and/or started travelling around very late in life (think mid-late 20s).
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:05:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 10, 2009, 08:48:09 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 09, 2009, 12:38:35 PM
Pity you are too young to remember it clearly, it was a great day :cool:
There were a number of them round about that time, it was wonderful watching the Evil Empire lose it's grip throughout Eastern Europe :D
Germans were late-comers. We got out of the soviet rule 6 months earlier.
Yes, I remember, plus the earlier ructions back in 1980 or so. You Poles didn't make very good commies though, whereas the DDR was a good solid attempt by the Germans :D
:yes:
Stasi > KGB
Quote from: Caliga on November 10, 2009, 09:10:17 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:03:34 AM
I'm really not sure which group of people travel more than the other, but the travelling to every major city in their country is certainly not something most Europeans would contemplate. That means I'd have to spend my holidays in places like Birmingham and Nottingham, which would be madness when i can so easily travel to France, Spain, Germany.. :D
I dunno, I just figured you'd been to, say, Birmingham on business or to visit cousins or for a class trip or something. :ph34r:
We are not allowed to travel more than 5 miles from our village without our lord's permission, except on a pilgrimage or a holy crusade. :P
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 10, 2009, 09:14:31 AM
This is odd indeed. Though I'd make an exception for the Great Depression & the War--that had an impact on people that lived through it far beyond the mere anxiety factor. To the end of her days, my grandmother stored away bits of string and elastic bands, in case the Great Depression came back ...
My grandpa was the same; used to save paper bags to write shopping lists and notes on, kept little heels of soap then welded them together to make a new bar.......and so on. This despite the fact that he got a good job in 1934 and was financially secure from that point on. Of course the 1920s were really bad for him.
My grandma was the same, only that in her case it made sense because there were constant shortages of stuff under the communist rule too. :P
On the other hand, the Great Depression barely touched Poland. In times like that (or the current financial crisis) it pays off to be backward. :P
Quote from: Martinus on November 11, 2009, 05:20:30 AM
On the other hand, the Great Depression barely touched Poland. In times like that (or the current financial crisis) it pays off to be backward. :P
Yay for always having a low quality of life?
Quote from: Martinus on November 11, 2009, 05:20:30 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on November 10, 2009, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 10, 2009, 09:14:31 AM
This is odd indeed. Though I'd make an exception for the Great Depression & the War--that had an impact on people that lived through it far beyond the mere anxiety factor. To the end of her days, my grandmother stored away bits of string and elastic bands, in case the Great Depression came back ...
My grandpa was the same; used to save paper bags to write shopping lists and notes on, kept little heels of soap then welded them together to make a new bar.......and so on. This despite the fact that he got a good job in 1934 and was financially secure from that point on. Of course the 1920s were really bad for him.
My grandma was the same, only that in her case it made sense because there were constant shortages of stuff under the communist rule too. :P
On the other hand, the Great Depression barely touched Poland. In times like that (or the current financial crisis) it pays off to be backward. :P
For my maternal grandmother, it was the post war what tipped her over the sanity edge regarding the hoarding of apparently useless stuff. That and the attitude towards food, no part of a chicken is disgusting enough not to get eaten for her. Luckily she didn't pass that to the next generation, but she did pass the "no food can ever be wasted" mentality.
Quote from: garbon on November 11, 2009, 05:37:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on November 11, 2009, 05:20:30 AM
On the other hand, the Great Depression barely touched Poland. In times like that (or the current financial crisis) it pays off to be backward. :P
Yay for always having a low quality of life?
Last time I heard you complained about the quality of yours.
In order to get things back on track, here's the Hoff contributing to the fall of the Berlin Wall. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.farodevigo.es%2Ffotos%2Fnoticias%2F318x200%2F2009-11-11_IMG_2009-11-11_11%3A19%3A06_davidmuro.jpg&hash=2e3f1961017839d48f75fb7a64c51cf43572e181)
Quote from: Martinus on November 11, 2009, 05:46:40 AM
Last time I heard you complained about the quality of yours.
Uncalled for and irrelevant.
Quote from: The Larch on November 11, 2009, 07:22:11 AM
In order to get things back on track, here's the Hoff contributing to the fall of the Berlin Wall. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.farodevigo.es%2Ffotos%2Fnoticias%2F318x200%2F2009-11-11_IMG_2009-11-11_11%3A19%3A06_davidmuro.jpg&hash=2e3f1961017839d48f75fb7a64c51cf43572e181)
germany is never going to be free of the hoff is it :p
Quote from: The Larch on November 11, 2009, 07:22:11 AM
In order to get things back on track, here's the Hoff contributing to the fall of the Berlin Wall. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.farodevigo.es%2Ffotos%2Fnoticias%2F318x200%2F2009-11-11_IMG_2009-11-11_11%3A19%3A06_davidmuro.jpg&hash=2e3f1961017839d48f75fb7a64c51cf43572e181)
He was pretty pissed off about not being mentioned in a museum about the fall of the wall, because he thinks that "Looking for Freedom" was the anthem of the day.
Maybe if he had a bigger hammer.
Quote from: Syt on November 11, 2009, 08:02:21 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 11, 2009, 07:22:11 AM
In order to get things back on track, here's the Hoff contributing to the fall of the Berlin Wall. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.farodevigo.es%2Ffotos%2Fnoticias%2F318x200%2F2009-11-11_IMG_2009-11-11_11%3A19%3A06_davidmuro.jpg&hash=2e3f1961017839d48f75fb7a64c51cf43572e181)
He was pretty pissed off about not being mentioned in a museum about the fall of the wall, because he thinks that "Looking for Freedom" was the anthem of the day.
He's a fall down drunk now, so it doesn't matter if he's mad.
Quote from: Martinus on November 11, 2009, 05:18:02 AM
We are not allowed to travel more than 5 miles from our village without our lord's permission, except on a pilgrimage or a holy crusade. :P
Here's a case of mead. Now, go forth to Bratislava, young man! :)
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 10, 2009, 08:24:57 AM
Americans travel a lot more then the Euros, especially domestically.
How is that possible when they get so much more paid vacation than we do? I thought they all got August off to tramp around the world.
Not in their cultures I guess.
Americans travel a lot & move even more. Just look at Thanksgiving.
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 05:33:26 PM
Sounds like a description of "The Village" from The Prisoner. ;)
Havent read it but likely the author saw East Berlin also....
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 11, 2009, 10:45:34 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 09, 2009, 05:33:26 PM
Sounds like a description of "The Village" from The Prisoner. ;)
Havent read it but likely the author saw East Berlin also....
East Germany? ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Ffr1U7KMY&feature=related
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 11, 2009, 10:13:57 AM
Not in their cultures I guess.
Americans travel a lot & move even more. Just look at Thanksgiving.
Um, what?
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2009, 11:39:03 AM
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
When I was in Nashville, I went into a BBQ joint down the street from the Country Music Hall of Fame and there was a family of Danes there. Dudes were fucking GIANTS. The dad and his sons were all close to seven feet tall. But anyway there were alot of foreigners around there. Tons of Japanese tourists in the museum as well.
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2009, 11:39:03 AM
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
Germans spend the most on international tourism in absolute numbers (i.e. more than the Japanese and Americans), so it's true that you can find Germans in about every tourist destination in the world.
Quote from: Valmy on November 09, 2009, 03:30:19 PM
But if you never experienced the Cold War you sort of take its ending for granted and do not really appreciate how different the world was back then. Nobody back in 1988 could have known the Soviet Union would not still be around in 2009. I took a Russian History class and one of our books was "Mikhail Gorbachev, leading the Soviet Union into the 21st century" published in early 1989.
Growing up, I had World Book Encyclopedia Yearbooks for 1968-1989. The yearbooks had feature articles in the front that usually discussed trends, predictions, etc. One of my favorites was the 1989 article discussing North and South Korea, and East and West Germany. The basic gist of the article was that East and West Germany were unlikely to reunify any time soon because East Germany had a strong consumer culture, relative to its neighbors. Meanwhile, the Koreas were on track to re-unite sometimes in the 90s. :lol:
Quote from: Zanza on November 11, 2009, 12:04:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2009, 11:39:03 AM
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
Germans spend the most on international tourism in absolute numbers (i.e. more than the Japanese and Americans), so it's true that you can find Germans in about every tourist destination in the world.
Does international travel mean outside of Germany, or outside of Europe?
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:08:22 PMDoes international travel mean outside of Germany, or outside of Europe?
Outside of Germany. Why would it mean outside of Europe? :huh:
Quote from: Zanza on November 11, 2009, 12:12:04 PM
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:08:22 PMDoes international travel mean outside of Germany, or outside of Europe?
Outside of Germany. Why would it mean outside of Europe? :huh:
It's just a weird comparison between Germany and the United States. Germany is surrounded by many countries within close driving or train distance, compared to the US, in which that is only true for people who live close to Mexico or Canada. I'm sure Americans spend more on tourism, international or otherwise, than Germans. IMO A more "equal" comparison would be money spent per capita on inter-continental travel, but that would harder to quantify
Growing up I visited all major cities in Sweden.
Quote from: The Brain on November 11, 2009, 12:36:30 PM
Growing up I visited all major cities in Sweden.
So you've been to Stockholm and Malmo.
Sweden? :tinfoil:
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2009, 11:39:03 AM
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
The Germans I saw going apeshit at the WWII German displays at the Air Force Museum was hilarious.
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2009, 11:39:03 AM
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
Battlefields in the U.S. are on my list of things to visit when I have mucho time and money.
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:28:55 PMI'm sure Americans spend more on tourism, international or otherwise, than Germans.
I would expect that too. The point I wanted to make wasn't that Germans travel the most in the world or so. I just wanted to support Valmy's assertion that they travel a lot.
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:28:55 PMI'm sure Americans spend more on tourism, international or otherwise, than Germans.
I seriously doubt this is the case. In my experience traveling Americans are very rare and Germans are common.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on November 11, 2009, 02:46:54 PM
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:28:55 PMI'm sure Americans spend more on tourism, international or otherwise, than Germans.
I seriously doubt this is the case. In my experience traveling Americans are very rare and Germans are common.
Maybe internationally. But Americans do plenty of travelling within the US.
Betcha Americans road trip more in college.
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: Zanza on November 11, 2009, 12:12:04 PM
Quote from: stjaba on November 11, 2009, 12:08:22 PMDoes international travel mean outside of Germany, or outside of Europe?
Outside of Germany. Why would it mean outside of Europe? :huh:
It's just a weird comparison between Germany and the United States. Germany is surrounded by many countries within close driving or train distance, compared to the US, in which that is only true for people who live close to Mexico or Canada. I'm sure Americans spend more on tourism, international or otherwise, than Germans. IMO A more "equal" comparison would be money spent per capita on inter-continental travel, but that would harder to quantify
Equal comparison in what sense? Drive for 400 miles from your hometown in Europe and you will likely be in a country with a completely different language, religion and culture. Drive for 400 miles in North America and you're at the next truck stop :p
I miss the days I could just get in the jeep and drive in any direction for a couple of hours. Just for the hell of it.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 11, 2009, 04:23:46 PM
I miss the days I could just get in the jeep and drive in any direction for a couple of hours. Just for the hell of it.
You can still do that. You just need to remember the car seats.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mpi.mb.ca%2FImages%2FRoadSafety%2FCarSeats.gif&hash=7873c07bb7955b299a9ddd01a3b888aea83cd8d0)
Quote from: Warspite on November 11, 2009, 04:05:36 PM
Drive for 400 miles in North America and you're at the next truck stop :p
SF to Los Angeles: ~400 miles ;)
You can't get credit for visiting Belgium if I don't get credit for visiting Chicago or Portland. :P
There are different states in our federation too.
Whenever there is an article in the press about tourism to Britain they always talk about American and Japanese tourists being particularly prized. The reason for that is their spend per day, which far exceeds the amount most Europeans spend per day. But then, their annual holiday entitlement is rather limited, whereas Europeans may well be taking several weeks abroad every year, so need to be relatively parsimonious.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 11, 2009, 01:56:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 11, 2009, 11:39:03 AM
I know one Euro nationality that travels and that is the Germans. You cannot go to any tourist destination in the US without running into a bunch of Germans with the obvious exception of those places only interesting to Americans like Gettysburg.
The Germans I saw going apeshit at the WWII German displays at the Air Force Museum was hilarious.
Why were they going apeshit?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 13, 2009, 04:16:59 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 11, 2009, 01:56:38 PM
The Germans I saw going apeshit at the WWII German displays at the Air Force Museum was hilarious.
Why were they going apeshit?
OH NOES! THE CARPET BOMBING111
I'm recalling a bit on the major city visiting in your own country thingie and came to realize I've never been to Bilbao, and only very briefly to Sevilla. :mellow: All other big cities and most mid-size cities I've visited.
Never been to the south of the Mondego (except for changing planes at Lisbon).
Havn't been to Marseilles but then it isn't really France and there isn't much to see there, specially for a Parisian :D
I read today that the night the Wall fell François Mitterrand half expected the Austrians to join the feast... and having lived through the World War, he didn't enjoy the idea of having a new Great Germany (BDR + DDR + Austria) appear on the map of Europe overnight! (and we can laugh at his unfounded fears, but certainly the fall of the wall unleashed a long process of redrawing borders in Eastern Europe, most of them pacific, but some in Yugoslavia could have belonged to 1939-1945).