Languish.org

I tried to keep the biggies.

Sorry if I confuse anybody; I translated the titles of a few, half translated others...

Moby Dick is not an epic poem.

You should have posted "John Brown's Body"

http://www.amazon.com/John-Browns-Stephen-Vincent-Benet/dp/092958726X/ref=cm_lmf_tit_15

You forgot Poland. :p

Moby Dick? meowtf

I suppose the Eddas.

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
You forgot Poland. :p

I did it on purpose.

Timmy, I specifically said "National Epic" as several of these are in prose anyway. 

Moby-Dick seemed the best American answer to Milton and Dante, but that could be argued about.  Didn't want to leave out such an important country when we have Ireland there.    I'd argue that the slot for Paradise Lost as a "national epic" is more questionable than Moby-Dick though.

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:16:13 PM

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
You forgot Poland. :p

I did it on purpose.

Timmy, I specifically said "National Epic" as several of these are in prose anyway. 

Moby-Dick seemed the best American answer to Milton and Dante, but that could be argued about.  Didn't want to leave out such an important country when we have Ireland there.

Why would America necessarily have a national epic?

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 02:13:33 PM
Moby Dick is not an epic poem.

However it is an epic drum solo.

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 02:18:05 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:16:13 PM

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
You forgot Poland. :p

I did it on purpose.

Timmy, I specifically said "National Epic" as several of these are in prose anyway. 

Moby-Dick seemed the best American answer to Milton and Dante, but that could be argued about.  Didn't want to leave out such an important country when we have Ireland there.

Why would America necessarily have a national epic?

The Uzbeks, Filipinos and Finns have one.  No way they get one and we don't.

I voted the Iliad, but I like the Odyssey better.  Your selection of poll options is a bit odd... but then again, you're Spellus (or used to be). :hug:

Sav, how did you vote?  You've had avatars and profile quotes from several of these.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 02:13:33 PM
Moby Dick is not an epic poem.

You should have posted "John Brown's Body"

http://www.amazon.com/John-Browns-Stephen-Vincent-Benet/dp/092958726X/ref=cm_lmf_tit_15

Walt Whitman's America's epic poet.

I don't think the Shahnameh's considered an epic by anyone.  It's the Persian national book and series of tales but there's another Medieval Persian poem that is considered the national epic but I can't remember its name :(

Quote from: Caliga on March 25, 2009, 02:20:27 PM
I voted the Iliad, but I like the Odyssey better.  Your selection of poll options is a bit odd... but then again, you're Spellus (or used to be). :hug:

Ah, it all makes sense now. I was wondering who that was.

Quote from: Caliga on March 25, 2009, 02:20:27 PM
I voted the Aeneid, but I like the Odyssey better.  Your selection of poll options is a bit odd... but then again, you're Spellus (or used to be). :hug:

I couldn't decide if I wanted the Spanish one to be Mio Cid or Don Quixote, or Igor's Campaign or War and Peace for Russia.  Split the choice, made it weird. Also, should have cut out the Tain as Ireland is a terrible, terrible place.

Divine Comedy, followed by War and Peace.

QuoteI voted the Iliad, but I like the Odyssey better.  Your selection of poll options is a bit odd... but then again, you're Spellus (or used to be). :hug:

The Odyssey's not noble enough, perhaps?  And preferring it's really recent.  Until the turn of the 20th century the emphasis was overwhelmingly on the Iliad.

The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

Voted for the Aeneid, though I too prefer the Odyssey.

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:19:48 PM

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 02:18:05 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:16:13 PM

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
You forgot Poland. :p

I did it on purpose.

Timmy, I specifically said "National Epic" as several of these are in prose anyway. 

Moby-Dick seemed the best American answer to Milton and Dante, but that could be argued about.  Didn't want to leave out such an important country when we have Ireland there.

Why would America necessarily have a national epic?

The Uzbeks, Filipinos and Finns have one.  No way they get one and we don't.

At least you know in which tier you belong.

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

Great point, this man is absolutely right.

Shouldn't England's be King Arthur?

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2009, 02:23:22 PMThe Odyssey's not noble enough, perhaps?  And preferring it's really recent.  Until the turn of the 20th century the emphasis was overwhelmingly on the Iliad.

I just think it's more interesting and amusing.  I have not read the Iliad in a while but IIRC large portions of it bored me.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 02:24:40 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

Great point, this man is absolutely right.

Except that it is unacceptably racist.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2009, 02:21:07 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 02:13:33 PM
Moby Dick is not an epic poem.

You should have posted "John Brown's Body"

http://www.amazon.com/John-Browns-Stephen-Vincent-Benet/dp/092958726X/ref=cm_lmf_tit_15

Walt Whitman's America's epic poet.

I don't think the Shahnameh's considered an epic by anyone.  It's the Persian national book and series of tales but there's another Medieval Persian poem that is considered the national epic but I can't remember its name :(

My only objection to including the Shahnameh is that it is as much a regional epic as a national one, as Turks, Arabs and even Indians tend to know it pretty well.  And I've only heard of the Shahnameh referenced as the Persian national epic,  heck Ferdowsi is sometimes credited with helping save the Iranian language due to the influence of his poetry. 

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 02:25:31 PM
Except that it is unacceptably racist.

Only to those who have never read it.

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:27:35 PM

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 02:25:31 PM
Except that it is unacceptably racist.

Only to those who have never read it.

Like Americans.

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'd say it is probably best if we split up the US; New England would get Moby-Dick, the South would get Huck Finn, etc......

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:28:50 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'd say it is probably best if we split up the US; New England would get Moby-Dick, the South would get Huck Finn, etc......

But where would the madness end?

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:20:32 PM
Sav, how did you vote?  You've had avatars and profile quotes from several of these.

The Illiad, one day I'll have to learn Ancient Greek to read it in the original.   :)

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 02:25:06 PM
Shouldn't England's be King Arthur?

Well there's not really a King Arthur that tells the story of Arthur as we know it.  Malory's books are largely a reinterpretation of existing French texts  But I think maybe the last book could count as a sort of national epic.  Things fall apart.

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:26:58 PM
My only objection to including the Shahnameh is that it is as much a regional epic as a national one, as Turks, Arabs and even Indians tend to know it pretty well.  And I've only heard of the Shahnameh referenced as the Persian national epic,  heck Ferdowsi is sometimes credited with helping save the Iranian language due to the influence of his poetry.

Yep, you're right.  The only person who doesn't think it's the Persian epic is the guy who wrote the introduction to the copy I've got :bleeding:

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2009, 02:32:53 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:26:58 PM
My only objection to including the Shahnameh is that it is as much a regional epic as a national one, as Turks, Arabs and even Indians tend to know it pretty well.  And I've only heard of the Shahnameh referenced as the Persian national epic,  heck Ferdowsi is sometimes credited with helping save the Iranian language due to the influence of his poetry.

Yep, you're right.  The only person who doesn't think it's the Persian epic is the guy who wrote the introduction to the copy I've got :bleeding:

What's the translation you are reading?  I'd love to read it, though I think I might end up studying Persian so hopefully I will one day read (if not all of, than maybe the first 20,000 pages) of it.

Illiad.  I suppose the Bible could be the the Western Epic.  For the US, there is always the Song of Hiawatha.  Though I've never read it.

It's a huge tossup for me.  I love national epics as a "genre".

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:28:50 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'd say it is probably best if we split up the US; New England would get Moby-Dick, the South would get Huck Finn, etc......

True, and if we split Greece we can have both the Iliad and the Odyssey :woot:

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2009, 02:31:00 PM
Well there's not really a King Arthur that tells the story of Arthur as we know it.  Malory's books are largely a reinterpretation of existing French texts  But I think maybe the last book could count as a sort of national epic.  Things fall apart.

"National Myth" might be a better term for King Arthur as nearly every generation retells the story in a new and different way.  The Greeks did the same with the Oresteia.

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:37:54 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:28:50 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'd say it is probably best if we split up the US; New England would get Moby-Dick, the South would get Huck Finn, etc......

True, and if we split Greece we can have both the Iliad and the Odyssey :woot:

Trouble is that the exact same Greece (and supposedly the exact same poet) produced both the Iliad and the Odyssey, while there are obviously huge differences between Huck Finn and Moby-Dick. 

But yeah, I probably should have cut out the Tain and put in Huck Finn for the South and Moby-Dick for the North. 

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:40:35 PM
there are obviously huge differences both in setting and author between Huck Finn and Moby-Dick. 

:D

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:36:02 PM
What's the translation you are reading?  I'd love to read it, though I think I might end up studying Persian so hopefully I will one day read (if not all of, than maybe the first 20,000 pages) of it.

I've an old Edwardian translation (and abridgement) I found in a second hand bookstore.  I never got past 20 pages.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shahnameh-Persian-Penguin-Classics-Editions/dp/0143104934/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238010198&sr=8-1
This is on my wishlist.  Largely because I suspect it'll be like the Odyssey, which I first tried to read in Edwardian translation.  Then I read it by a modern writer and enjoyed it.

I don't get Moby Dick and Huck Finn (and Don Quixote for that matter).  To qualify as an epic, doesn't the main character need to do something, you know...epic?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 02:47:42 PM
I don't get Moby Dick and Huck Finn (and Don Quixote for that matter).  To qualify as an epic, doesn't the main character need to do something, you know...epic?

Huck Finn goes on an Epic journey down the Mississippi river where he deals with all kinds of assorted scum.

Quote from: Sheilbh on March 25, 2009, 02:46:00 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:36:02 PM
What's the translation you are reading?  I'd love to read it, though I think I might end up studying Persian so hopefully I will one day read (if not all of, than maybe the first 20,000 pages) of it.

I've an old Edwardian translation (and abridgement) I found in a second hand bookstore.  I never got past 20 pages.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shahnameh-Persian-Penguin-Classics-Editions/dp/0143104934/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238010198&sr=8-1
This is on my wishlist.  Largely because I suspect it'll be like the Odyssey, which I first tried to read in Edwardian translation.  Then I read it by a modern writer and enjoyed it.

This looks amazing.  I'd recommend reading My Name is Red if you are interested in reading the Shahnameh; its about Ottoman miniaturists, first time I realized just how influential the Shahnameh was.  Also made me decide  to name my firstborn son Rostam, as it goes well with my last name.  Pamuk is a very, very interesting writer.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 02:47:42 PM
I don't get Moby Dick and Huck Finn (and Don Quixote for that matter).  To qualify as an epic, doesn't the main character need to do something, you know...epic?

I can't think of anything more epic than chasing the largest vertebrate that has ever existed on this planet until all of your friends die and you survive by hanging onto your gay lover's coffin.   

While male sperm whales were significantly larger before whalers culled their population, even if Moby Dick was as large as a sperm whale ever got he would not qualify for the largest vertebrate ever, at only 85 feet.

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:51:47 PM
I can't think of anything more epic than chasing the largest vertebrate that has ever existed on this planet until all of your friends die and you survive by hanging onto your gay lover's coffin.

It was an industrial activity.  Except the part about the gay lover's coffin.

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'm reading this to my wife right now. It is very much not what she expected.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 02:57:40 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:51:47 PM
I can't think of anything more epic than chasing the largest vertebrate that has ever existed on this planet until all of your friends die and you survive by hanging onto your gay lover's coffin.

It was an industrial activity.  Except the part about the gay lover's coffin.

Have you read the final chapters?  Ahab drops his pipe and screams "FROM HELL'S HEART, I STAB AT THEE!"  Somehow I doubt Ford ever said that on a production line.

Timmy, fine, the largest vertebrate that wasn't a blue whale ever.   

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'm reading this to my wife right now. It is very much not what she expected.

Did I miss your wife being horribly blinded? :unsure:

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 03:01:14 PM
Have you read the final chapters?  Ahab drops his pipe and screams "FROM HELL'S HEART, I STAB AT THEE!"  Somehow I doubt Ford ever said that on a production line.

Timmy, fine, the largest vertebrate that wasn't a blue whale ever.

Is drama queenery sufficient to make an epic?

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 03:07:48 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 03:01:14 PM
Have you read the final chapters?  Ahab drops his pipe and screams "FROM HELL'S HEART, I STAB AT THEE!"  Somehow I doubt Ford ever said that on a production line.

Timmy, fine, the largest vertebrate that wasn't a blue whale ever.

Is drama queenery sufficient to make an epic?

I don't understand your objection to Moby Dick, cleary it is an epic work.

The problem with Moby Dick is that it isn't a national epic.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 03:08:59 PM
I don't understand your objection to Moby Dick, cleary it is an epic work.

I always thought that to qualify as an epic a story had to (a) have a large scale ad (b) the protagonist had to do something heroic.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 03:11:10 PM
I always thought that to qualify as an epic a story had to (a) have a large scale ad (b) the protagonist had to do something heroic.

Star Wars is America's national epic, in that sense.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'm reading this to my wife right now. It is very much not what she expected.

Did I miss your wife being horribly blinded? :unsure:

:huh:

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 02:47:42 PM
I don't get Moby Dick and Huck Finn (and Don Quixote for that matter).  To qualify as an epic, doesn't the main character need to do something, you know...epic?

It depends.  Different cultures have different requirements of epic. 

For example, the Anglo-Saxons were obsessed with an idea of decline and saw the world as fate-filled and largely doomed to suffer.  Because of that their epic (which is in itself a sort of decline, they remember it as migrants, it's the great Danish story for the English) isn't a linear story; it's cycilical and full of fore-shadowing of the tragedy that will befall everyone.  Within the first 100 lines it's established the rise of this great royal house but it says of one king that he built Heorot, which will later burn.  The fire and war that destroys Heorot is later recalled when, at the end, women stand around Beowulf's pyre weeping and singing funeral lays.  The poem ends roughly with the poet making you know that everyone there knew that without their protector Beowulf's lands would be invaded and all his people would die or be made slaves.

Beowulf himself is heroic, but the point that comes across in the text isn't that there needs to be an epic, great hero.  It's that society needs to be cohesive, promises must be kept and everyone needs to do the thing they're meant to do.  So Beowulf dies because the soldiers he's taken with him generally don't stand and fight with him as they should but run away.  Then Wiglaf goes back and that small, seemingly insignificant character saves the day, but it's too late to save Beowulf.  He returns and rebukes the cowards.  This is a very common theme in Anglo-Saxon literature.  In the Battle of Maldon and the Fight and Finnsburgh the failure of one side is almost always caused by a group of warriors failing to live up to their promises made in the hall and failing to fight.  Victory or defeat isn't dominated by one man, it's to do with social values and a certain cohesiveness.

And then compare that with, say, the Aeneid.  Everyone interprets epic differently.  Dante does something epic (he goes through hell and returns and through purgatory and heaven without being dead) but he's not a hero.  Satan's the hero of Paradise Lost and so on.

QuoteIt was an industrial activity.

What could be more epically American than industry?

Kalevala... Listening to it on the radio for the last few weeks. Great stuff!

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'm reading this to my wife right now. It is very much not what she expected.

Did I miss your wife being horribly blinded? :unsure:

:huh:

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

Reading whole books to adults is extremely rare outside Toronto.

Quote from: Caliga on March 25, 2009, 02:20:27 PM
I voted the Iliad, but I like the Odyssey better.  Your selection of poll options is a bit odd... but then again, you're Spellus (or used to be). :hug:

Bitch, I was going to say exactly the same thing (voted for Illiad but prefer Odyssey). Stop parroting me. :P

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 03:01:14 PM

Have you read the final chapters?  Ahab drops his pipe and screams "FROM HELL'S HEART, I STAB AT THEE!"  Somehow I doubt Ford ever said that on a production line.

Indeed, they were careful to keep Jews out of the factory when Henry was around.

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 03:15:01 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

I'm reading this to my wife right now. It is very much not what she expected.

Did I miss your wife being horribly blinded? :unsure:

:huh:

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

Reading whole books to adults is extremely rare outside Toronto.

I doubt your favorite farm animals really miss it.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 02:25:06 PM
Shouldn't England's be King Arthur?

There isn't a single poem about King Arthur. And I don't think Morte d'Arthur is epic enough on its own.

It really depends on what you consider a "national epic". Is it the theme or the author that counts? If the latter, then Paradise Lost is definitely the English epic.

Quote from: Savonarola on March 25, 2009, 03:15:38 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 03:01:14 PM

Have you read the final chapters?  Ahab drops his pipe and screams "FROM HELL'S HEART, I STAB AT THEE!"  Somehow I doubt Ford ever said that on a production line.

Indeed, they were careful to keep Jews out of the factory when Henry was around.

:lmfao:

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 03:17:28 PMIt really depends on what you consider a "national epic". Is it the theme or the author that counts? If the latter, then Paradise Lost is definitely the English epic.

Absolutely.  Milton's lucky in that before him he had Shakespeare and Spenser and Ben Jonson and so on.  But he's the first writer writing in English that gets anywhere near the respect given to classical authors.  He establishes English as a really capable, literary language for many people.

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:22:41 PM
Also, should have cut out the Tain as Ireland is a terrible, terrible place.

:huh:
WTF.
Why do you think Ireland is a terrbile, terrible place?

Not enough Armenians.

Quote from: Cerr on March 25, 2009, 03:29:30 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:22:41 PM
Also, should have cut out the Tain as Ireland is a terrible, terrible place.

:huh:
WTF.
Why do you think Ireland is a terrbile, terrible place?

They are terrorists and Catholics. You don't get much worserer in Western Europe.

Quote from: Savonarola on March 25, 2009, 03:15:38 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 03:01:14 PM

Have you read the final chapters?  Ahab drops his pipe and screams "FROM HELL'S HEART, I STAB AT THEE!"  Somehow I doubt Ford ever said that on a production line.

Indeed, they were careful to keep Jews out of the factory when Henry was around.

:lol: I shouldn't have laughed at that, but I did.

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: Cerr on March 25, 2009, 03:29:30 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:22:41 PM
Also, should have cut out the Tain as Ireland is a terrible, terrible place.

:huh:
WTF.
Why do you think Ireland is a terrbile, terrible place?

They are terrorists and Catholics. You don't get much worserer in Western Europe.

Yes all Irish people are terrorists and Catholics.
All Swedes are pig-fuckers.

Quote from: Ed Anger on March 25, 2009, 03:30:07 PM
Not enough Armenians.

:lol:
Well if Spellus is anything to go by then we're very lucky we don't have more.

I'm surprised the poll lacks any French epics (I guess the Song of Roland would be the most likely candidate).

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

:yes:

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 03:51:17 PM
I'm surprised the poll lacks any French epics (I guess the Song of Roland would be the most likely candidate).

It's a Psellus poll.

Quote from: Cerr on March 25, 2009, 03:45:08 PM

Quote from: The Brain on March 25, 2009, 03:33:08 PM

Quote from: Cerr on March 25, 2009, 03:29:30 PM

Quote from: Queequeg on March 25, 2009, 02:22:41 PM
Also, should have cut out the Tain as Ireland is a terrible, terrible place.

:huh:
WTF.
Why do you think Ireland is a terrbile, terrible place?

They are terrorists and Catholics. You don't get much worserer in Western Europe.

Yes all Irish people are terrorists and Catholics.
All Swedes are pig-fuckers.

Thanks. Thanks.

Quote from: Ed Anger on March 25, 2009, 03:30:07 PM
Not enough Armenians.

I was going to include one, but I'd have gotten shit for it.  Oddly enough, its about slaughtering Arabs, and therefore would probably get more approval on this forum than you would think.

Martinus, I kept putting in Roland until I realized that something was written down before it, I must have put it in four or five times when making the poll...only to forget it in the final draft.  Whoops. 

I love my historic ironies.  When Mehmet II conquered Constantinople, he said that he was glad to have avenged the Trojans by defeating the Romans.  Somewhere, Virgil was spinning in his ashes. 

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

You've been sadly misinformed then. :mellow:

Oh this qugueuguehegh guy is Psellus? That explains a lot. :P

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 04:48:02 PM
You've been sadly misinformed then. :mellow:

Tim don't even play. :thumbsdown:

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 04:48:59 PM
Oh this qugueuguehegh guy is Psellus? That explains a lot. :P

Yeah, Spellus is on a Moby Dick Love-a-thon

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 04:48:02 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

You've been sadly misinformed then. :mellow:

When you get married, you can explain that "necessity" to the cops.  :D

Paradise Lost is my favorite book of any genre, but RoTK is damn close.

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

Yeah, gotta go with that one.

And Joyce's Ulysses trumps Táin Bó Cúailnge for Ireland.
At least, I think so.

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:13:41 PM

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

A Crusader epic, like the Italian "Jerusalem Delivered"?

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 04:59:31 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 04:48:02 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

You've been sadly misinformed then. :mellow:

When you get married, you can explain that "necessity" to the cops.  :D

Ass, you know what I meant. :lol:

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:13:41 PM

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

The story of El Cid.  I think it is the oldest Spanish epic.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 05:19:48 PM

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:13:41 PM

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

A Crusader epic, like the Italian "Jerusalem Delivered"?

I mean which novel, that name doesn't ring any bell at all, and it's supposed to be my national epic, which makes the situation a bit stupid.

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 05:25:26 PM

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:13:41 PM

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

The story of El Cid.  I think it is the oldest Spanish epic.

That's "El Cantar del Mio Cid", and Spellus himself says he discarded it when picking them.

Edit: Wait, I misread. So Spellus translated Mio Cid as My Lord? Dumbass...

Hey Squeelus, how about the Moses story?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2009, 05:18:49 PM
And Joyce's Ulysses trumps Táin Bó Cúailnge for Ireland.
At least, I think so.

Agreed.

The Lusiadas....

Quote from: mongers on March 25, 2009, 06:40:56 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 25, 2009, 05:17:40 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 02:23:58 PM
The US epic is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

This isn't even a subject of debate.

Yeah, gotta go with that one.

No disagreement here.

You know I haven't read that in forever, I think next time I go to the library I'll take that out.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 25, 2009, 05:56:23 PM
Hey Squeelus, how about the Moses story?

In general I tried to make this secular; chose the Shahnameh over the Gathas, Ramayana over Rigveda, etc....Moses would be a good choice, its just that it is such a universal story among the Abrahamic faiths that I'm not totally sure it really belongs to one "nation" anymore.  Though obviously the Ramayana is not 'secular', the Rigveda has a lot of prayers ,same with the Old Testament.

The Age of Innocence (Wharton) USA

Quote from: I Killed Kenny on March 25, 2009, 06:38:35 PM
The Lusiadas....

I'm thinking about reading (I mean *really* reading) the stuff. Have you done it?

From what I've read Pessoa's Mensagem could be a contender, although a little bit depressive and modernist (wish shouldn't be the literary era).

I'm trying to pick a copy of Peregrinação and then I'll decide wish is our major national epic.  :bowler:

Quote from: Martinus on March 25, 2009, 03:17:28 PM
It really depends on what you consider a "national epic". Is it the theme or the author that counts? If the latter, then Paradise Lost is definitely the English epic.

I think it's the former.  Paradise Lost isn't an English national epic;  it's an epic work by an Englishman.  Same with the Divine Comedy and Italy, IMO.  There just isn't enough "national" content in either.  Some of the other poll choices I think are iffy in that regard.

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:31:51 PM


That's "El Cantar del Mio Cid", and Spellus himself says he discarded it when picking them.

Edit: Wait, I misread. So Spellus translated Mio Cid as My Lord? Dumbass...

it's spellus, what do you expect.

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:31:51 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 05:25:26 PM

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:13:41 PM

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

The story of El Cid.  I think it is the oldest Spanish epic.

That's "El Cantar del Mio Cid", and Spellus himself says he discarded it when picking them.

Edit: Wait, I misread. So Spellus translated Mio Cid as My Lord? Dumbass...

Doesn't Cid mean Lord, and I'm guessing Mio means my, and El Cantar is a cognate if you know anything about music.  How is the translation wrong?

Quote from: Queequeg on March 26, 2009, 12:38:11 AM

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:31:51 PM

Quote from: grumbler on March 25, 2009, 05:25:26 PM

Quote from: The Larch on March 25, 2009, 05:13:41 PM

QuoteThe Song of My Lord (Spain)

WTF is that one supposed to be?

The story of El Cid.  I think it is the oldest Spanish epic.

That's "El Cantar del Mio Cid", and Spellus himself says he discarded it when picking them.

Edit: Wait, I misread. So Spellus translated Mio Cid as My Lord? Dumbass...

Doesn't Cid mean Lord, and I'm guessing Mio means my, and El Cantar is a cognate if you know anything about music.  How is the translation wrong?

Effectively, "El Cid" is a proper name, and shouldn't be translated.

I voted for the Cid, but I was sorely tempted to vote 'Other': the Lord of the Rings, the Nerdish National Epic.

Regarding the 'Cantar del Mio Cid', 'Mio' means 'my' and 'Cid' comes from 'Sidi', more or less the Arabic equivalent of 'Lord' or 'Sir'. The poem uses several terms for its hero, Ruy Díaz de Vivar: 'Mio Cid', 'Cid',  'Campeador' (battler or fighter), and the full form 'Mio Cid Campeador', i.e. 'My Lord the Battler'.

But the text implies the Arabic 'Cid' became his nickname even during his life, and certainly it did after he died. He's 'El Cid' and that term can't be translated as 'The Lord'... I would translate it as 'The Lay of the Cid', an alternative English title according to the Wikipedia.

And as a national epic, it has been almost completely superseded by the Quixote. As an Spanish national epic the Lay of the Cid is problematic, because it is belligerently Castilian, the author considered Aragonese as foreign as Muslims or more (after all, the King of Castile had many Muslim vassals) and one of the events included is how the Cid and his little army defeated the Count of Barcelona - portraited as a foolish braggart - and took him prisoner...

Isn't the English epic the Arthur legend?

Rommance of the 3 kingdoms.

The French epic is the Song of Roland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland)

Kevin

Strange Brew - The Canadian National Epic.

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 05:23:33 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 04:59:31 PM

Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 25, 2009, 04:48:02 PM

Quote from: Malthus on March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM

I read to her all the time, because she likes being read to. I wasn't aware that horrible mutilation was mandatory.

You've been sadly misinformed then. :mellow:

When you get married, you can explain that "necessity" to the cops.  :D

Ass, you know what I meant. :lol:

Actually - I don't.  :P

Reading out loud isn't just for kids, IMO. It is a fun activity for adults, too. We certainly enjoy it - it takes a certain amount of skill to do it well, and it beats watching TV in bed.

Honey, read Hunters of Gor to me.

Quote from: Ed Anger on March 26, 2009, 08:48:29 AM
Honey, read Hunters of Gor to me.

If you read it in bed, you can act out the best parts.  :D

Quote from: Malthus on March 26, 2009, 08:45:02 AM
Reading out loud isn't just for kids, IMO. It is a fun activity for adults, too. We certainly enjoy it - it takes a certain amount of skill to do it well, and it beats watching TV in bed.

:yes: