This is interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6142964/Fairy-tales-have-ancient-origin.html
In summary: a researcher has tabulated various versions of fairy tales like
little red riding hood, and claims that the story has a "common ancestor" more than two millenia old:
QuoteContrary to the view that the tale originated in France shortly before Charles Perrault produced the first written version in the 17th century, Dr Tehrani found that the varients shared a common ancestor dating back more than 2,600 years.
What i'm not so sure about is: diffusion, or independant invention? Maybe the story arises in various times because it contains themes appealing to people across a wide range of cultures.
I think it's likely that it's just general themes. Someone bad is using deception to hurt someone. Greeks and Aztecs had divine twins in their mythology though I doubt they came from the same source.
Great, Spellus is going to pontificate on more useless ancient shit now.
Now, I admit it's possible I got this idea originally from fantasy authors (especially Pratchett and Gaiman), but I thought this was a well-established fact. :P
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2009, 05:07:25 PM
I think it's likely that it's just general themes. Someone bad is using deception to hurt someone. Greeks and Aztecs had divine twins in their mythology though I doubt they came from the same source.
Bollocks. What are the chances of that happening? Its clearly evidence for the ancient Atlantean civilization.
Variation on Jungian archetypes?
Quote from: Tyr on September 09, 2009, 05:17:09 PM
Bollocks. What are the chances of that happening? Its clearly evidence for the ancient Atlantean civilization.
OMG GET GRAHAM HANCOCK ON THE BAT PHONE :cool:
Chariots of the Gods people! Aliens are responsible for this.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 09, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Variation on Jungian archetypes?
yeah, seems to be. it's well established that certain myths, with local variations, recur throughout time and cultures. the idea that they are rooted in our specie's deep mental makeup is fascinating.
Quite.
I thought that was common knowledge. :unsure:
Quote from: saskganesh on September 09, 2009, 09:42:17 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 09, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Variation on Jungian archetypes?
yeah, seems to be. it's well established that certain myths, with local variations, recur throughout time and cultures. the idea that they are rooted in our specie's deep mental makeup is fascinating.
Almost the next step along from instinct - complex brains? - maybe as a way of reacting more quickly to a set situation - and surviving etc etc
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on September 09, 2009, 09:44:02 PM
I thought that was common knowledge. :unsure:
I think it was common supposition. I remember debating with Minsky on a similar point a while ago.
Quote from: saskganesh on September 09, 2009, 09:42:17 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 09, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Variation on Jungian archetypes?
yeah, seems to be. it's well established that certain myths, with local variations, recur throughout time and cultures. the idea that they are rooted in our specie's deep mental makeup is fascinating.
This is the question: archetype, diffusion, or a mix?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 09, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Variation on Jungian archetypes?
I thought that had to do with some universal conscience
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2009, 07:58:43 AM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on September 09, 2009, 09:44:02 PM
I thought that was common knowledge. :unsure:
I think it was common supposition. I remember debating with Minsky on a similar point a while ago.
I think it was a little different - it was a question of textual integrity over time which has some implications for the discussion.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 10, 2009, 09:03:22 AM
I think it was a little different - it was a question of textual integrity over time which has some implications for the discussion.
This latest article beings up similar issues. Is the 2,000 year old story "the same story"? Diffusion, inspiration or invention?
I heard about the "very old fairy tales" in the 80s. Not news!
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2009, 08:36:39 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 09, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Variation on Jungian archetypes?
I thought that had to do with some universal conscience
At its heart? Been a few years since I read his books. But he did believe, and there is some evidence to support it, that certain common beliefs pervade cultures throughout history.
Frodo, Harry Potter, Arthur, Merlin, Dumbledoor, Gandalf are all examples.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 10, 2009, 11:11:47 AM
At its heart? Been a few years since I read his books. But he did believe, and there is some evidence to support it, that certain common beliefs pervade cultures throughout history.
Frodo, Harry Potter, Arthur, Merlin, Dumbledoor, Gandalf are all examples.
Examples of what? :lol:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 10, 2009, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on September 10, 2009, 11:11:47 AM
At its heart? Been a few years since I read his books. But he did believe, and there is some evidence to support it, that certain common beliefs pervade cultures throughout history.
Frodo, Harry Potter, Arthur, Merlin, Dumbledoor, Gandalf are all examples.
Examples of what? :lol:
:huh: Homosexuals.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on September 09, 2009, 09:44:02 PM
I thought that was common knowledge. :unsure:
That they're older, sure. But two thousand years old? Us outlying Europeans still thought iron was a pretty ground-breaking concept, where the more "civilised" cultures already had highly formalised literature.
Quote from: Brazen on September 10, 2009, 11:31:27 AM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on September 09, 2009, 09:44:02 PM
I thought that was common knowledge. :unsure:
That they're older, sure. But two thousand years old? Us outlying Europeans still thought iron was a pretty ground-breaking concept, where the more "civilised" cultures already had highly formalised literature.
:mellow: This isn't news, 'sall.
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2009, 09:07:01 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 10, 2009, 09:03:22 AM
I think it was a little different - it was a question of textual integrity over time which has some implications for the discussion.
This latest article beings up similar issues. Is the 2,000 year old story "the same story"? Diffusion, inspiration or invention?
The article presumes that even if there is diffusion going on, there isn't much in way of textual integrity; the theme remains but the text keeps morphing.