QuoteMedvedev lambasts Ukraine leader
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has made a scathing attack on Ukraine's president, accusing him of "anti-Russian" behaviour.
In a videoblog message on the Kremlin website, Mr Medvedev said he would delay sending a new ambassador to Kiev until relations improved.
Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko has forged close links with the EU, US and Nato since coming to power in 2004.
He is expected to run for re-election in Ukraine in January.
In the videoblog, Mr Medvedev commented on a letter he had sent to Mr Yushchenko recently, which he said was "no routine matter".
He accused Mr Yushchenko of having supplied Ukrainian weapons to the Georgian forces who "killed civilians and Russian peacekeepers in Tskhinvali" during the South Ossetia conflict a year ago.
He also accused Mr Yushchenko of bypassing Russia in Ukrainian energy deals with the EU "concerning deliveries of our Russian gas".
Mr Medvedev said the Ukrainian authorities had created problems for the Black Sea Fleet, based in the Crimean port of Sevastopol, in southern Ukraine.
He also accused the Yushchenko administration of driving the Russian language out of Ukrainian media, education and culture, and of trying to rewrite history.
Election politics
Mr Medvedev said he hoped the situation would return to normal under a new Ukrainian leadership. The BBC's correspondent in Kiev says this was a thinly-veiled reference to Ukraine's presidential election, set for 17 January.
Mr Yushchenko spearheaded Ukraine's pro-Western "Orange Revolution" in 2004, which overturned the election of Viktor Yanukovych, who was backed by Moscow. Election observers had declared the Yanukovych victory to be fraudulent.
Mr Yanukovych now heads the opposition Party of Regions, and opinion polls suggest he could be a strong candidate in the presidential election. His support base is in mainly Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine.
The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse in Kiev says some Ukrainians will interpret Mr Medvedev's verbal assault as the opening shot in a new Russian campaign to regain the influence that Moscow lost five years ago.
Diplomatic relations had already soured before Mr Medvedev's attack on Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow's previous ambassador to Kiev was recalled in June.
On Monday a councillor at the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow, Ihor Berezkin, left Russia in line with a demand from the Russian authorities.
Last month Ukraine expelled a Russian diplomat.
Lovely. This is almost exactly to the day a year from the emasculation of Georgia.
Specially for BB: Interestingly enough, the Ukrainian attempts to "rewrite history" involve (according to the full transcript of the speech) two things: accusing Stalin of engineering the great famine in Ukraine, and saying that the Nazi-Soviet war was a war of two totalitarian regimes, rather than a benevolent liberation by the Soviets.
Quote
He accused Mr Yushchenko of having supplied Ukrainian weapons to the Georgian forces who "killed civilians and Russian peacekeepers in Tskhinvali" during the South Ossetia conflict a year ago.
Those damn Georgians, picking on Russia like that. :mad:
On going war of words with Russia vs Ukraine. I thought it had been shown how Russia had been fomenting troubles in Osettia, and/or other regions neighboring or part of Georgia, for quite some time. Now the Russians are accusing Ukraine of some actions there of a year ago? Russia should shut up - they won round one. Seems Russia is putting more pressure and grief on Ukraine, for their next steps in the war of words.
Why would Russia shut up? They're winning. They'll do their best to win back the Ukraine, and if they can't win the whole thing, they'll fund a seperatist movement for the east. They know that the only government that has the power to stand against them is far too naive to do anything about it. After all, they reset their relations, and whatnot.
I wonder if Obama would go so far as to reset the relations again, if it came down to that.
Whoever Marti is for, I take the opposite view. He is the Tim of Europe.
You didn't bold the most awesome part, which is "Mr Medvedev said he hoped the situation would return to normal under a new Ukrainian leadership." Talk about a breach of etiquette. I hope trying to deftly influence elections like that is going to backfire on Russians, statements like that tend to be counter-productive. Yushchenko sure needs all the help he can get.
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2009, 03:28:17 AM
Specially for BB: Interestingly enough, the Ukrainian attempts to "rewrite history" involve (according to the full transcript of the speech) two things: accusing Stalin of engineering the great famine in Ukraine, and saying that the Nazi-Soviet war was a war of two totalitarian regimes, rather than a benevolent liberation by the Soviets.
I guess the irony of a Russian accusing someone of rewriting history is lost on Medvedev.
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 09:53:35 AM
You didn't bold the most awesome part, which is "Mr Medvedev said he hoped the situation would return to normal under a new Ukrainian leadership."
I thought it was a toss up between that and "We will not send an ambassador until relations improve".
QuoteTalk about a breach of etiquette. I hope trying to deftly influence elections like that is going to backfire on Russians, statements like that tend to be counter-productive. Yushchenko sure needs all the help he can get.
If that is a Russians idea of "deft", I hate to see what it looks like when they become obvious.
I wonder at how stable Ukraine can be if a good portion of the countries citizens actively support Russia against the Ukraine, or is that reading of Yanukovych support too simplistic?
Ukraine is a country divided - its Eastern half is very Russophile, its Western half is very Russophobic. All comes down to history.
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 09:53:35 AM
I hope trying to deftly influence elections like that is going to backfire on Russians, statements like that tend to be counter-productive.
Tend to be? :lol:
I think even the Red Chinese learned to be quiet during Taiwanese elections. This can not possible be helpful for Medvedev.
Quote from: Barrister on August 12, 2009, 10:51:20 AM
I think even the Red Chinese learned to be quiet during Taiwanese elections. This can not possible be helpful for Medvedev.
Isn't the Ukrainian government pretty unpopular though? I thought it had been a big disappointment after the Orange revolution. I was under the impression it was riven by internal arguments and as corrupt as the previous government.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: Barrister on August 12, 2009, 10:51:20 AM
I think even the Red Chinese learned to be quiet during Taiwanese elections. This can not possible be helpful for Medvedev.
Isn't the Ukrainian government pretty unpopular though? I thought it had been a big disappointment after the Orange revolution. I was under the impression it was riven by internal arguments and as corrupt as the previous government.
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
The Great Helmsman, Obama, will deal with Russia most successfully.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: Barrister on August 12, 2009, 10:51:20 AM
I think even the Red Chinese learned to be quiet during Taiwanese elections. This can not possible be helpful for Medvedev.
Isn't the Ukrainian government pretty unpopular though? I thought it had been a big disappointment after the Orange revolution. I was under the impression it was riven by internal arguments and as corrupt as the previous government.
MArty probably knows more than I, but somewhat. The Orange Revolution had been an alliance between the two largest pro-western forces, Yuschenko and Timoschenko(sp?), who have now become President and PM, respectively, and now fued quite openly.
My read is it is now a 3 way split, and it's unclear what the outcome of elections would be.
But nothing brings people together like being threatened from an outside power.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: Barrister on August 12, 2009, 10:51:20 AM
I think even the Red Chinese learned to be quiet during Taiwanese elections. This can not possible be helpful for Medvedev.
Isn't the Ukrainian government pretty unpopular though? I thought it had been a big disappointment after the Orange revolution. I was under the impression it was riven by internal arguments and as corrupt as the previous government.
Just because the current government isn't popular is no reason for the people to want to subject themselves to genocide.
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 11:45:12 AM
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Also just given Ukraine's place in the world and its dependence on Russian gas shouldn't their government always make an effort not to annoy Russia too much? I think it would be foolhardy of, say, Mongolia to not treat Russia and China with deference. Or Nepal to be delicate when dealing with the Chinese or the Indians.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 11:45:12 AM
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Also just given Ukraine's place in the world and its dependence on Russian gas shouldn't their government always make an effort not to annoy Russia too much? I think it would be foolhardy of, say, Mongolia to not treat Russia and China with deference. Or Nepal to be delicate when dealing with the Chinese or the Indians.
Emotion is a powerful force. Very few countries do things out of straight up self-interest.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
It sure brings people together.
Quote from: Neil on August 12, 2009, 12:31:31 PM
Emotion is a powerful force. Very few countries do things out of straight up self-interest.
Very true.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 11:45:12 AM
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Also just given Ukraine's place in the world and its dependence on Russian gas shouldn't their government always make an effort not to annoy Russia too much? I think it would be foolhardy of, say, Mongolia to not treat Russia and China with deference. Or Nepal to be delicate when dealing with the Chinese or the Indians.
But this doesn't sound like Ukraine is needlessly picking fights with Russia, it's more that Russia expects total subservience from Ukraine. :huh:
Quote from: Barrister on August 12, 2009, 12:41:26 PM
But this doesn't sound like Ukraine is needlessly picking fights with Russia, it's more that Russia expects total subservience from Ukraine. :huh:
I'm not sure total subservience is fair, but yeah.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 11:45:12 AM
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Also just given Ukraine's place in the world and its dependence on Russian gas shouldn't their government always make an effort not to annoy Russia too much? I think it would be foolhardy of, say, Mongolia to not treat Russia and China with deference. Or Nepal to be delicate when dealing with the Chinese or the Indians.
Weak European countries always expect there more powerful neighburs to protect them from their enemies. They don't seem to grasp that it never works.
Quote from: HVC on August 12, 2009, 04:52:42 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 11:45:12 AM
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Also just given Ukraine's place in the world and its dependence on Russian gas shouldn't their government always make an effort not to annoy Russia too much? I think it would be foolhardy of, say, Mongolia to not treat Russia and China with deference. Or Nepal to be delicate when dealing with the Chinese or the Indians.
Weak European countries always expect there more powerful neighburs to protect them from their enemies. They don't seem to grasp that it never works.
The Ukraine is probably militarily more powerful than any European country except for France and the UK. If its neighbour wasn't brutal, hypernationalist, militaristic Russia, they'd be pretty safe.
I bet you the Ukraine regrets giving The Bomb back to Russia when the USSR broke up.
Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible, get under the protective umbrella. Then maybe Poland, Romania, Baltic States and others of the former Eastern Block could go to Ukraine's aid, get some pay back on the Russkies! Then again, Russia should join NATO also; that'd be interesting.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Well I don't know but as far as I am aware most people do not like being bullied by foreign powers.
Quote from: KRonn on August 12, 2009, 06:12:48 PM
Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible, get under the protective umbrella. Then maybe Poland, Romania, Baltic States and others of the former Eastern Block could go to Ukraine's aid, get some pay back on the Russkies! Then again, Russia should join NATO also; that'd be interesting.
No American blood for Eastern Europeans.
Quote from: Barrister on August 12, 2009, 12:41:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2009, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 11:45:12 AM
Yes, it's extremely unpopular. I don't think Russian interference is going to hurt them, though.
I don't know. Does the government's popularity increase when Russia turns off the gas in winter?
Also just given Ukraine's place in the world and its dependence on Russian gas shouldn't their government always make an effort not to annoy Russia too much? I think it would be foolhardy of, say, Mongolia to not treat Russia and China with deference. Or Nepal to be delicate when dealing with the Chinese or the Indians.
But this doesn't sound like Ukraine is needlessly picking fights with Russia, it's more that Russia expects total subservience from Ukraine. :huh:
That's true.
That being said, it is often difficult for Westerners to understand the Central-Eastern Europe politics, because it is so deeply entrenched in history.
I think Ukraine's position is a bit precarious, though, if it tries to delve too much into "historical politics". This is because their anti-Russian history current is also anti-Polish and at least on its face pro-nazi, so they are not going to make any friends that way in Europe.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 12, 2009, 06:20:29 PM
Quote from: KRonn on August 12, 2009, 06:12:48 PM
Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible, get under the protective umbrella. Then maybe Poland, Romania, Baltic States and others of the former Eastern Block could go to Ukraine's aid, get some pay back on the Russkies! Then again, Russia should join NATO also; that'd be interesting.
No American blood for Eastern Europeans.
This is a good point. While large parts of Eastern Europe are racially Russian (Poland, for example), the Ukraine has a huge community of Russian speakers that doesn't suffer any legal disadvantage. At least the Balts have the good sense to make the Russians second-class citizens.
By admitting the Ukraine, we're putting allowing our enemies into the fold.
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2009, 06:23:27 PM
I think Ukraine's position is a bit precarious, though, if it tries to delve too much into "historical politics". This is because their anti-Russian history current is also anti-Polish and at least on its face pro-nazi, so they are not going to make any friends that way in Europe.
Maybe, but Europe doesn't really matter. They can't provide anything for the Ukraine. What they need is a bilateral security agreement with the US.
Quote from: Neil on August 12, 2009, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 12, 2009, 06:20:29 PM
Quote from: KRonn on August 12, 2009, 06:12:48 PM
Ukraine needs to join NATO as soon as possible, get under the protective umbrella. Then maybe Poland, Romania, Baltic States and others of the former Eastern Block could go to Ukraine's aid, get some pay back on the Russkies! Then again, Russia should join NATO also; that'd be interesting.
No American blood for Eastern Europeans.
This is a good point. While large parts of Eastern Europe are racially Russian (Poland, for example), the Ukraine has a huge community of Russian speakers that doesn't suffer any legal disadvantage. At least the Balts have the good sense to make the Russians second-class citizens.
By admitting the Ukraine, we're putting allowing our enemies into the fold.
*cough*
Quote from: Neil on August 12, 2009, 06:34:45 PM
Are you soft on Russians?
I think he is trying to claim that he is Ukrainian. As if.
Quote from: Neil on August 12, 2009, 06:27:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2009, 06:23:27 PM
I think Ukraine's position is a bit precarious, though, if it tries to delve too much into "historical politics". This is because their anti-Russian history current is also anti-Polish and at least on its face pro-nazi, so they are not going to make any friends that way in Europe.
Maybe, but Europe doesn't really matter. They can't provide anything for the Ukraine. What they need is a bilateral security agreement with the US.
Like the Georgians allegedly had when Russian tanks started rolling in last year? Or the kind that Poles and Czechs had with the US until Obama started to renege on it?
Nah, Europe is exactly what Ukraine needs.
Russia knows how to deal with the US. To it, it is a fellow predator - one it can fight or flee - but one it can beat in its own field.
Europe, on the other hand, is an amorphous symbiont, something that Russia doesn't quite know how to approach. Sure, if Russia wants to go to war, then Europe won't be able to stop it, but to Russia Europe is much more beneficial alive and as a trading partner. So Russia won't call a bluff, unless it can isolate and devour a country, like it did with Georgia but won't try with, say, Baltics - because it is too far entangled with European webs to be able to move.
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Like the Georgians allegedly had when Russian tanks started rolling in last year?
Was the US committed to defend the territorial integrity of Georgia?
QuoteOr the kind that Poles and Czechs had with the US until Obama started to renege on it?
It doesn't seem that Russia has gobbled up any Czech or Polish territory.
QuoteNah, Europe is exactly what Ukraine needs.
Russia knows how to deal with the US. To it, it is a fellow predator - one it can fight or flee - but one it can beat in its own field.
Europe, on the other hand, is an amorphous symbiont, something that Russia doesn't quite know how to approach. Sure, if Russia wants to go to war, then Europe won't be able to stop it, but to Russia Europe is much more beneficial alive and as a trading partner. So Russia won't call a bluff, unless it can isolate and devour a country, like it did with Georgia but won't try with, say, Baltics - because it is too far entangled with European webs to be able to move.
Russia knows that Europe will do whatever it takes in order to avoid being cut off from the gas. Therefore, Europe cannot guarantee the security of the Ukraine.
Quote from: Berkut on August 12, 2009, 08:52:29 AM
I wonder if Obama would go so far as to reset the relations again, if it came down to that.
That's the beauty of the misspelled reset button. You can push it as many times as you want!!
Quote from: Martinus on August 12, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Or the kind that Poles and Czechs had with the US until Obama started to renege on it?
I know you hate him because he abandoned gays, but watch the racist language :mad:
Quote from: derspiess on August 12, 2009, 10:01:53 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 12, 2009, 08:52:29 AM
I wonder if Obama would go so far as to reset the relations again, if it came down to that.
That's the beauty of the misspelled reset button. You can push it as many times as you want!!
As I said many times before, there was no good translation, and the one used was acceptable. The Russian guy got it more wrong than the State Department, interestingly enough, probably because he wasn't computer-savvy.
Although maybe by "overcharge" the Russian guy meant "overload", like 20 Ampere device in a 15 Ampere circuit kind of overload. That's another valid translation of the word "peregruzka", which is very unfortunate.
Quote from: DGuller on August 12, 2009, 10:16:01 PM
Although maybe by "overcharge" the Russian guy meant "overload", like 20 Ampere device in a 15 Ampere circuit kind of overload. That's another valid translation of the word "peregruzka", which is very unfortunate.
I win :yeah: