I thought some Languishers/ans/ites/ians/kateers might enjoy :face: each other over this?
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=haught_29_5 (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=haught_29_5)
QuoteA French Revelation, or The Burning Bush
JAMES A. HAUGHT
Incredibly, President George W. Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible's satanic agents of the Apocalypse.
Honest. This isn't a joke. The president of the United States, in a top-secret phone call to a major European ally, asked for French troops to join American soldiers in attacking Iraq as a mission from God.
Now out of office, Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their "common faith" (Christianity) and told him: "Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East.... The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled.... This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins."
This bizarre episode occurred while the White House was assembling its "coalition of the willing" to unleash the Iraq invasion. Chirac says he was boggled by Bush's call and "wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs."
After the 2003 call, the puzzled French leader didn't comply with Bush's request. Instead, his staff asked Thomas Romer, a theologian at the University of Lausanne, to analyze the weird appeal. Dr. Romer explained that the Old Testament book of Ezekiel contains two chapters (38 and 39) in which God rages against Gog and Magog, sinister and mysterious forces menacing Israel. Jehovah vows to smite them savagely, to "turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws," and slaughter them ruthlessly. In the New Testament, the mystical book of Revelation envisions Gog and Magog gathering nations for battle, "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
In 2007, Dr. Romer recounted Bush's strange behavior in Lausanne University's review, Allez Savoir. A French-language Swiss newspaper, Le Matin Dimanche, printed a sarcastic account titled: "When President George W. Bush Saw the Prophesies of the Bible Coming to Pass." France's La Liberte likewise spoofed it under the headline "A Small Scoop on Bush, Chirac, God, Gog and Magog." But other news media missed the amazing report.
Subsequently, ex-President Chirac confirmed the nutty event in a long interview with French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, who tells the tale in his new book, Si Vous le Répétez, Je Démentirai (If You Repeat it, I Will Deny), released in March by the publisher Plon.
Oddly, mainstream media are ignoring this alarming revelation that Bush may have been half-cracked when he started his Iraq war. My own paper, The Charleston Gazette in West Virginia, is the only U.S. newspaper to report it so far. Canada's Toronto Star recounted the story, calling it a "stranger-than-fiction disclosure ... which suggests that apocalyptic fervor may have held sway within the walls of the White House." Fortunately, online commentary sites are spreading the news, filling the press void.
The French revelation jibes with other known aspects of Bush's renowned evangelical certitude. For example, a few months after his phone call to Chirac, Bush attended a 2003 summit in Egypt. The Palestinian foreign minister later said the American president told him he was "on a mission from God" to defeat Iraq. At that time, the White House called this claim "absurd."
Recently, GQ magazine revealed that former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld attached warlike Bible verses and Iraq battle photos to war reports he hand-delivered to Bush. One declared: "Put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground."
It's awkward to say openly, but now-departed President Bush is a religious crackpot, an ex-drunk of small intellect who "got saved." He never should have been entrusted with the power to start wars.
For six years, Americans really haven't known why he launched the unnecessary Iraq attack. Official pretexts turned out to be baseless. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction after all, and wasn't in league with terrorists, as the White House alleged. Collapse of his asserted reasons led to speculation about hidden motives: Was the invasion loosed to gain control of Iraq's oil—or to protect Israel—or to complete Bush's father's vendetta against the late dictator Saddam Hussein? Nobody ever found an answer.
Now, added to the other suspicions, comes the goofy possibility that abstruse, supernatural, idiotic, laughable Bible prophecies were a factor. This casts an ominous pall over the needless war that has killed more than four thousand young Americans and cost U.S. taxpayers perhaps $1 trillion.
James A. Haught is the editor of the Charleston Gazette (West Virginia) and a Free Inquiry senior editor.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wilsonsalmanac.com%2Fimages2%2Fnov9_gog_magog1.gif&hash=bbc630ce4200c97ef66df289b01b90c39cb990e7)
I'm sure some of you would find the source uncredible. whatev. Chirac's the one dishing, is there going to be an Ex- President's Big Brother?
That would be awesome. and it's started already
Wow the only people I hear babbling about Gog and Magog are nutty Orthodox Jews...
I find it had to believe a Methodist would indulge in such bizarre nonsense.
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2009, 10:31:10 PM
Wow the only people I hear babbling about Gog and Magog are nutty Orthodox Jews...
I find it had to believe a Methodist would indulge in such bizarre nonsense.
The last time
I heard mention of Gog and Magog, it was in a Justice Society of America comic. :nerd:
On a semi-serious note, I've heard it mentioned that speculation on the state of the PotUS' health is verbot, as a matter of national security, so it stands to reason that if there were a problem with a Pres'
mental health, we'd never hear about it until well after he was out of office... :unsure:
well crazy ex-Presidents are kind of a natural phenom aren't they?
Smells like bullshit, looks like bullshit.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2009, 02:51:09 PM
Smells like bullshit, looks like bullshit.
I agree, though if you'd told me about the Rummy briefings with Biblical quotes on the frontpage I would have thought that was nonsense too. I understand why Romer and the author are saying it, it'll be good for book sales. But what reason has Chirac to confirm it?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 08, 2009, 02:54:41 PM
I agree, though if you'd told me about the Rummy briefings with Biblical quotes on the frontpage I would have thought that was nonsense too. I understand why Romer and the author are saying it, it'll be good for book sales. But what reason has Chirac to confirm it?
At this point we're working off secularhumanism.org's characterization of a Swiss newspaper's characterization of a French theology professor's characterization of a conversation between Chirac and Bush.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
At this point we're working off secularhumanism.org's characterization of a Swiss newspaper's characterization of a French theology professor's characterization of a conversation between Chirac and Bush.
And secularhumanism.org's characterisation of a 'lengthy interview' with Chirac in a recently released French book.
But I agree it strikes me as weird. I can't find any translation of the section of the book, the only Chirac quotation I can find about superficial and fanatical belief. But here's the relevant extract from the book's serialisation:
http://livres.lexpress.fr/premierespages.asp/idC=14730/idR=6/idG=8?XTOR=EPR-342
Y'know Bush may very well not have meant it literally also... there is that possibility that he thought couching his ideas in Biblical analogy, a comfort zone of his own, and was not trying to convince Chirac that there was an actual Reckoning(tm) coming... he maybe even thought to use hyperbole....
maybe.... :tinfoil:
QuoteIn the New Testament, the mystical book of Revelation envisions Gog and Magog gathering nations for battle, "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
No kidding?
I hate reading revelations, it is the most fucked up most out there shit in the whole Bible I can't believe the church fathers put that crap in the there. But I have read it a couple times and don't remember Gog and Magog...
oh shit there it is in chapter 20. Oh well it is obvious because they copied that part out of Ezekiel to begin with.
Well ok knowing that I suppose it is possible a Methodist might go there.
Still is pretty crazy though.
Revelations is lovely but on can't quite beat Song of Songs. :wub:
How reliable is the source?
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2009, 10:31:10 PM
Wow the only people I hear babbling about Gog and Magog are nutty Orthodox Jews...
I find it had to believe a Methodist would indulge in such bizarre nonsense.
You obviously haven't been to the right corners of the internet.
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
How reliable is the source?
As the Word of God, I'd say the Bible is pretty fucking reliable.
Quote from: Valmy on August 09, 2009, 10:17:23 PM
I hate reading revelations, it is the most fucked up most out there shit in the whole Bible I can't believe the church fathers put that crap in the there. But I have read it a couple times and don't remember Gog and Magog...
A number of Church Fathers had issues with it and many seemed to view it as of secondary value within the New Testament. I believe that Erasmus, Luther and Calvin all had doubts about it and generally didn't place much emphasis on it because it was so out of kilter with the rest of the New Testament.
Quote from: garbon on August 10, 2009, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
How reliable is the source?
As the Word of God, I'd say the Bible is pretty fucking reliable.
Nonsense.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 08, 2009, 02:54:41 PM
I agree, though if you'd told me about the Rummy briefings with Biblical quotes on the frontpage I would have thought that was nonsense too. I understand why Romer and the author are saying it, it'll be good for book sales. But what reason has Chirac to confirm it?
At this point we're working off secularhumanism.org's characterization of a Swiss newspaper's characterization of a French theology professor's characterization of a conversation between Chirac and Bush.
Also the author is insulting and a jackass.
Quote from: Valmy on August 09, 2009, 10:17:23 PM
I hate reading revelations, it is the most fucked up most out there shit in the whole Bible I can't believe the church fathers put that crap in the there.
Without doomsday prophecy and a very near, very scary apocalypse, they wouldn't really have much of a religion, would they?
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 08, 2009, 02:54:41 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2009, 02:51:09 PM
Smells like bullshit, looks like bullshit.
I agree, though if you'd told me about the Rummy briefings with Biblical quotes on the frontpage I would have thought that was nonsense too. I understand why Romer and the author are saying it, it'll be good for book sales. But what reason has Chirac to confirm it?
Actually, having a bible quote on a brief is pretty standard fare. Particularly any Staff brief, since the Chaplain will always put one in.
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
How reliable is the source?
Apparently it's from a journalist who interviewed Chirac for a book. The title of the book is "If you repeat this, I will deny it" so you takes your chances, to say the least.
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
How reliable is the source?
St. John is thought to have couched Revelations in code, meant for underground Christians. Others think he was on teh opiates. So his reliability is questionable either way.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 11, 2009, 09:10:35 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 10, 2009, 01:38:02 AM
How reliable is the source?
St. John is thought to have couched Revelations in code, meant for underground Christians. Others think he was on teh opiates. So his reliability is questionable either way.
:yes: Many of the protestant churches actually push the theology that Rev. is a coded letter describing the current political climate and "strongly encouraging" the seven churches to not make waves that could destroy the rest.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 08, 2009, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 08, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
At this point we're working off secularhumanism.org's characterization of a Swiss newspaper's characterization of a French theology professor's characterization of a conversation between Chirac and Bush.
And secularhumanism.org's characterisation of a 'lengthy interview' with Chirac in a recently released French book.
But I agree it strikes me as weird. I can't find any translation of the section of the book, the only Chirac quotation I can find about superficial and fanatical belief. But here's the relevant extract from the book's serialisation:
http://livres.lexpress.fr/premierespages.asp/idC=14730/idR=6/idG=8?XTOR=EPR-342
Said relevant extract is essentially translated in the article posted in the OP, and quoted as is elsewhere in the web. The book is mostly about Sarkozy, Villepin and Chirac.
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 10, 2009, 11:52:38 PM
Actually, having a bible quote on a brief is pretty standard fare. Particularly any Staff brief, since the Chaplain will always put one in.
:blink:
Quote from: Maladict on August 11, 2009, 11:09:47 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 10, 2009, 11:52:38 PM
Actually, having a bible quote on a brief is pretty standard fare. Particularly any Staff brief, since the Chaplain will always put one in.
:blink:
Every unit has a chaplain on Staff, who will usually contribute a slide with a bible verse or religious quote to a brief. That's pretty normal and standard at virtually all levels. We're not Godless heathens, like you degenerated euroweenies, after all.
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 11, 2009, 12:58:33 PM
Every unit has a chaplain on Staff, who will usually contribute a slide with a bible verse or religious quote to a brief. That's pretty normal and standard at virtually all levels. We're not Godless heathens, like you degenerated euroweenies, after all.
If the chaplain is a muslim will it be a Koran verse? Because that would be a useful cultural exchange and a beautiful moment of toleration.
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2009, 01:07:38 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 11, 2009, 12:58:33 PM
Every unit has a chaplain on Staff, who will usually contribute a slide with a bible verse or religious quote to a brief. That's pretty normal and standard at virtually all levels. We're not Godless heathens, like you degenerated euroweenies, after all.
If the chaplain is a muslim will it be a Koran verse? Because that would be a useful cultural exchange and a beautiful moment of toleration.
Probably, though I've never seen a muslim chaplain before (there are only a tiny handful of them), neither have I seen any jewish ones. Most chaplains tend to come from mainline protestant churches (given the huge shortage of catholic priests).
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 11, 2009, 01:16:29 PM
Probably, though I've never seen a muslim chaplain before (there are only a tiny handful of them), neither have I seen any jewish ones. Most chaplains tend to come from mainline protestant churches (given the huge shortage of catholic priests).
I listened to an interview from a Jewish chaplain before. It sounded like he ended up doing alot of work with the Christian soldiers as well so maybe the actual denomination is not that big of a deal.
My sister's ex-fiance was a Hassidic chaplain in the military. He was the one-man rebuttal to the notion that Jews are smart.
Quote from: Valmy on August 11, 2009, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 11, 2009, 01:16:29 PM
Probably, though I've never seen a muslim chaplain before (there are only a tiny handful of them), neither have I seen any jewish ones. Most chaplains tend to come from mainline protestant churches (given the huge shortage of catholic priests).
I listened to an interview from a Jewish chaplain before. It sounded like he ended up doing alot of work with the Christian soldiers as well so maybe the actual denomination is not that big of a deal.
Well, yes, chaplains have to serve all Soldiers in the unit they're supporting, no matter their faith. Of course they can't provide religious services, but most of their job consists of counceling services.
Quote from: Maladict on August 11, 2009, 11:09:47 AM
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 10, 2009, 11:52:38 PM
Actually, having a bible quote on a brief is pretty standard fare. Particularly any Staff brief, since the Chaplain will always put one in.
:blink:
OMG that's unreal! Can you fucking believe this fucking shit! I think I wet myself!!!!!11
Quote from: DGuller on August 11, 2009, 01:22:35 PM
My sister's ex-fiance was a Hassidic chaplain in the military. He was the one-man rebuttal to the notion that Jews are smart.
I've seen a few of those ... (second sentence, not the first) :D
Do Jewish chaplains have to provide their own head cube or does the military issue them one?
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 11, 2009, 12:58:33 PM
Every unit has a chaplain on Staff, who will usually contribute a slide with a bible verse or religious quote to a brief. That's pretty normal and standard at virtually all levels. We're not Godless heathens, like you degenerated euroweenies, after all.
I understand having chaplains around for religious services for those so inclined, but anything more would be violating the separation of church and state.
Quote from: Maladict on August 11, 2009, 01:36:02 PM
I understand having chaplains around for religious services for those so inclined, but anything more would be violating the separation of church and state.
Well naturally. They will not order a soldier to attend a religious service.
But just having a bible verse on a document is not going to threaten the secular nature of the government.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on August 07, 2009, 11:30:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 07, 2009, 10:31:10 PM
Wow the only people I hear babbling about Gog and Magog are nutty Orthodox Jews...
I find it had to believe a Methodist would indulge in such bizarre nonsense.
The last time I heard mention of Gog and Magog, it was in a Justice Society of America comic. :nerd:
You should read Kingdom Come. He is the spark that ignited the Apocalypse.
Quote from: Hansmeister on August 10, 2009, 11:52:38 PM
Actually, having a bible quote on a brief is pretty standard fare. Particularly any Staff brief, since the Chaplain will always put one in.
These were the World Intelligence Updates for the President. Rumsfeld denies approving them and the Pentagon has said that they don't use Bible quotes any more, I believe the guy believed responsible for them retired in 2003. So they're not standard, though this could be standard practice lower in the military that got carried up.
Here's the site with some of the front pages so people know what's referenced in the articles:
http://men.style.com/gq/features/topsecret