What the FUCK is this about? It isn't her school's job to find her a job and I wouldn't be bragging about a 2.8. :P
Quote
NEW YORK (CNN) -- A recent college graduate is suing her alma mater for $72,000 -- the full cost of her tuition and then some -- because she cannot find a job.
Trina Thompson has sued her alma mater, Monroe College of New York.
Trina Thompson, 27, of the Bronx, graduated from New York's Monroe College in April with a bachelor of business administration degree in information technology.
On July 24, she filed suit against the college in Bronx Supreme Court, alleging that Monroe's "Office of Career Advancement did not help me with a full-time job placement. I am also suing them because of the stress I have been going through."
The college responded that it offers job-search support to all its students.
In her complaint, Thompson says she seeks $70,000 in reimbursement for her tuition and $2,000 to compensate for the stress of her three-month job search.
As Thompson sees it, any reasonable employer would pounce on an applicant with her academic credentials, which include a 2.7 grade-point average and a solid attendance record. But Monroe's career-services department has put forth insufficient effort to help her secure employment, she claims.
"They're supposed to say, 'I got this student, her attendance is good, her GPA is all right -- can you interview this person?' They're not doing that," she said.
Thompson said she has fulfilled her end of the job-search bargain, peppering companies listed on Monroe's e-recruiting site with cover letters, résumés and phone calls. But no more than two employers have responded to her outreach, and those leads have borne no fruit.
Her complaint adds, "The office of career advancement information technology counselor did not make sure their Monroe e-recruiting clients call their graduates that recently finished college for an interview to get a job placement. They have not tried hard enough to help me."
She suggested that Monroe's Office of Career Advancement shows preferential treatment to students with excellent grades. "They favor more toward students that got a 4.0. They help them more out with the job placement," she said.
Monroe College released a statement saying that "while it is clear that no college, especially in this economy, can guarantee employment, Monroe College remains committed to working with all its students, including Ms. Thompson, who graduated only three months ago, to prepare them for careers and to support them during their job search."
Thompson says she has not hired an attorney to represent her because she cannot afford one. When she filed her complaint, she also filed a "poor person order," which exempts her from filing fees associated with the lawsuit.
Asked whether she would advise other college graduates facing job woes to sue their alma maters, Thompson said yes.
"It doesn't make any sense: They went to school for four years, and then they come out working at McDonald's and Payless. That's not what they planned."
For what it is worth, I graduated with a 3.9 and I'm still unemployed. Should I be looking for a lawyer instead of a job?
She expects her school to find her a job? :lmfao:
Maybe she should have been better educated about what role the school plays in society. Schools are there to give you an education, not a job...
Not to mention that publicity like this is invaluable in her efforts to find a future employer. I mean, who wouldnt want to hire someone as litigation-prone as this girl?
Negro ^_^
I hope this suit is thrown out instantly.
Maybe her university made some promises about helping her get a job? That's the only way I could see this working out.
Quote from: Bluebook on August 04, 2009, 04:39:10 AM
Not to mention that publicity like this is invaluable in her efforts to find a future employer. I mean, who wouldnt want to hire someone as litigation-prone as this girl?
First thing I thought of.
Boss: What's that applicant's name again?
Secretary: Trina Thompson
Boss: Where's she from?
Secretary: The Bronx
Boss: Oh HELL no! Next!
Quote from: Tyr on August 04, 2009, 05:29:49 AM
Maybe her university made some promises about helping her get a job? That's the only way I could see this working out.
Alot of people/organizations make bullshit promises, but that's no reason to sue them.
She is named Trina and lives in Bronx. I have: prejudiced suspicions. :cool:
Part of the issue no doubt is the fact that the applicant market is now oversaturated with people seeking IT jobs, but lacking any meaningful experience.
Back when I got into IT a decade ago, there were far more jobs than qualified people to do them.
It's still easy to get a good job in IT if you actually have experience, but very hard if you have none whatsoever, like her.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 06:39:00 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 04, 2009, 05:29:49 AM
Maybe her university made some promises about helping her get a job? That's the only way I could see this working out.
Alot of people/organizations make bullshit promises, but that's no reason to sue them.
Actually, it is. Of course, I'd assume there would be some "average consumer" test used to confirm whether an average person without a professional knowledge could have a reasonable expectation to rely on such an information or it was obvious that it was a "mere puff", but actually a large chunk of consumer legislation is aimed at preventing companies from making baseless bullshit statements when selling their products.
And a GPA of 2.8 compared to those with a 3.5 or higher. When 300 people are applying for one job, I can't imagine that little bit of information is going to help the girl's cause.
Isn't the unemployment rate over 9% now? She really shouldn't quibble about a job at Payless just at the moment. She may be lucky if she should get that.
Quote from: Martinus on August 04, 2009, 06:45:50 AM
Actually, it is. Of course, I'd assume there would be some "average consumer" standard employed to judge whether the information was presented as a mere puff or was an actual misrepresentation, but actually a large chunk of consumer legislation is aimed at preventing companies from making baseless bullshit statements when selling their products.
I've a feeling that if this had any basis at all, her lack of funds wouldn't stop a lawyer from stepping up to help her out for a percentage of the take when all is said and done.
Quote from: Martinus on August 04, 2009, 06:45:50 AM
Actually, it is. Of course, I'd assume there would be some "average consumer" test used to confirm whether an average person without a professional knowledge could have a reasonable expectation to rely on such an information or it was obvious that it was a "mere puff", but actually a large chunk of consumer legislation is aimed at preventing companies from making baseless bullshit statements when selling their products.
When I said "that's no reason to sue them", I meant "only an asshole or a Jew sues someone for breaking a bullshit promise that a retarded Puerto Rican could see is completely transparent." :)
P.S. Hi there Meri :hug:
It's typical of kids today. Spoilt by their parents. Expecting to get what they want when they want.
As an addendum to what Jos just said, when I was a recruiter I used to *hate* doing interviews in the April to June period because I'd end up with so many snot-nosed kids who were all "LOL I just got a BA in computer science so where's MAH $60K JERB." :rolleyes:
Stupid and lazy is so glamorous these days.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 07:39:13 AM
"LOL I just got a BA in computer science so where's MAH $60K JERB." :rolleyes:
A B
A in computer science? :bleeding:
*checks* Oh jeez, this is one of those fake for-profit colleges that exists solely to make money. Now I know why she can't find a job... most employers consider these degrees worthless, because they're so easy to obtain. Also, if she could only pull a 2.6 GPA or whatever it was at one of these degree mill schools, she's a complete and total fucktard who should be working at Payless or something.
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 08:13:03 AMA BA in computer science? :bleeding:
:huh: I have a BA.
AFAIK Boston University's College of Liberal Arts only awards the B.A., regardless of major. ^_^
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:13:08 AM
*checks* Oh jeez, this is one of those fake for-profit colleges that exists solely to make money. Now I know why she can't find a job... most employers consider these degrees worthless, because they're so easy to obtain. Also, if she could only pull a 2.6 GPA or whatever it was at one of these degree mill schools, she's a complete and total fucktard who should be working at Payless or something.
Hey, she *found* a better job - suing this college. :D
The thing is, having found that piece of information out, I have a little bit of sympathy for her, because all these types of schools do is repeat over and over again that they'll get you an OSSUM job and that they are really good at placing people.
The truth is, these schools are in reality sales organizations disguised as educational institutions.
I used to work with a guy in IT recruiting who is now 'Director of Admissions' at one such school in Nashville. He has a B.A. in Business Management and his resume is nothing but sales jobs. :mellow:
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 07:39:13 AM
As an addendum to what Jos just said, when I was a recruiter I used to *hate* doing interviews in the April to June period because I'd end up with so many snot-nosed kids who were all "LOL I just got a BA in computer science so where's MAH $60K JERB." :rolleyes:
That was me out of college so hopeful and ready to find a good programming job then reality came crashing down on me. :face:
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:13:08 AM
*checks* Oh jeez, this is one of those fake for-profit colleges that exists solely to make money. Now I know why she can't find a job... most employers consider these degrees worthless, because they're so easy to obtain. Also, if she could only pull a 2.6 GPA or whatever it was at one of these degree mill schools, she's a complete and total fucktard who should be working at Payless or something.
True, but because it's one of those degree mills that prey on stupid people, I kind of want to see them get a comeuppance.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:15:16 AM
:huh: I have a BA.
AFAIK Boston University's College of Liberal Arts only awards the B.A., regardless of major. ^_^
Which doesn't seem to be accredited by either the Computer Science Accreditation Commission (CSAC) of the Computing Sciences Accreditation Board (CSAB), or by the Computing Accreditation Commission (CAC) of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET).
Quote from: Vince on August 04, 2009, 08:19:02 AMThat was me out of college so hopeful and ready to find a good programming job then reality came crashing down on me. :face:
More than once I got the line "Well, I paid alot of money for college, so I need you to pay me $50K minimum (or whatever) in return." :blink:
I don't
need to do shit, greenhorn. GTFO. :)
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 08:22:51 AM
Which doesn't seem to be accredited by either the Computer Science Accreditation Commission (CSAC) of the Computing Sciences Accreditation Board (CSAB), or by the Computing Accreditation Commission (CAC) of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET).
I have a BA in History; I only minored in Computer Science.
But there is a large Computer Science department at that college of Boston U. and I find it impossible to believe that it is not accredited. :huh:
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
I have a BA in History; I only minored in Computer Science.
Ah. I just find it a bit ridiculous to not get a science degree for a major that has science in the name. It's like getting a BS in Modern art.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
But there is a large Computer Science department at that college of Boston U. and I find it impossible to believe that it is not accredited. :huh:
Their engineering programs are accredited by ABET, and the whole school is accredited by New England Association of Schools and Colleges, but the computer science program doesn't seem to have anything additional.
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 08:28:03 AMTheir engineering programs are accredited by ABET, and the whole school is accredited by New England Association of Schools and Colleges, but the computer science program doesn't seem to have anything additional.
Are you specifically looking at "College of Liberal Arts"? The name changed in 1997 or so to "College of Arts and Sciences".
There is a separate College of Engineering, too.
As I thought I said, everyone who attended CLA got a BA no matter what their major was.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:29:40 AM
Are you specifically looking at "College of Liberal Arts"? The name changed in 1997 or so to "College of Arts and Sciences".
There is a separate College of Engineering, too.
I looked at all ABET-accredited computer science degrees, and then searched generally inside www.cs.bu.edu.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:23:52 AM
More than once I got the line "Well, I paid alot of money for college, so I need you to pay me $50K minimum (or whatever) in return." :blink:
I don't need to do shit, greenhorn. GTFO. :)
Hell out of college I would have been happy with 30k with my Computer Science BS. I just cracked 50k last year after six years in my field. I just can't get why some of these people have such high salary demands out of college.
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 08:32:10 AM
I looked at all ABET-accredited computer science degrees, and then searched generally inside www.cs.bu.edu.
*shrug* Not sure what to tell you. My program was good, regardless of what credentials it may nor may not have.
You do realize accreditation doesn't mean as much as it used to, right? All the for-profit schools are "accredited" too.
Quote from: Vince on August 04, 2009, 08:32:19 AM
Hell out of college I would have been happy with 30k with my Computer Science BS. I just cracked 50k last year after six years in my field. I just can't get why some of these people have such high salary demands out of college.
Because they don't realize that they live in a culture that rewards hard work and experience, not empty credentials. :)
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:34:04 AM
You do realize accreditation doesn't mean as much as it used to, right? All the for-profit schools are "accredited" too.
Again, the for-profit schools are generally accredited at the school level and not at the program level. There is at least one thing you simply can't do with a non-accredited CS degree without jumping through a lot more hoops.
I concede the general point, though; when I was programming, there were any number of non-CS and even un-degreed colleagues around, and they certainly weren't any worse than the others. The best programmer I ever worked with had an MD, of all things.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:34:49 AM
Quote from: Vince on August 04, 2009, 08:32:19 AM
Hell out of college I would have been happy with 30k with my Computer Science BS. I just cracked 50k last year after six years in my field. I just can't get why some of these people have such high salary demands out of college.
Because they don't realize that they live in a culture that rewards hard work and experience, not empty credentials. :)
To be fair, I think this kind of crap came about during the dotcom boom's early days when expansion was going faster than there were experienced staff. There were all sorts of stories of Lolz! I guts ma MCSE and am making 80k a year with no skillz!
It irritated me when I was searching for a job that people with no experience but a paper cert were getting offers that I and my four years of actual work wasn't.
I think it is fairly unusual for the best programmer at any given place to have a CS or related degree, simply because these are going to be the older (and hence more experienced guys) who originally came into programming as a hobby and studied something else in college, if they even went to college.
When I was in college I used to work as a tech support guy for an ISP, and the President of the ISP had an education degree and had been a teacher for most of his career, but was always a computer enthusiast and ran a BBS back in the 80s.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 04, 2009, 08:45:56 AM
To be fair, I think this kind of crap came about during the dotcom boom's early days when expansion was going faster than there were experienced staff. There were all sorts of stories of Lolz! I guts ma MCSE and am making 80k a year with no skillz!
It irritated me when I was searching for a job that people with no experience but a paper cert were getting offers that I and my four years of actual work wasn't.
That is still a very aggravating problem. When I was recruiting, I'd have clients who would say "all candidates must have an MCSE or we won't even look at them". I might have a guy who's been a sys engineer for ten years, but lacks the paper cert, so I couldn't even get him in there. I suspect alot of people like that have started just lying about their Microsoft/CompTIA certs in the hopes that nobody ever asks to see their credential cards.
Quote from: Vince on August 04, 2009, 08:32:19 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:23:52 AM
More than once I got the line "Well, I paid alot of money for college, so I need you to pay me $50K minimum (or whatever) in return." :blink:
I don't need to do shit, greenhorn. GTFO. :)
Hell out of college I would have been happy with 30k with my Computer Science BS. I just cracked 50k last year after six years in my field. I just can't get why some of these people have such high salary demands out of college.
I've noticed that those that went to "good" schools generally demanded more than those coming out of community colleges.
Well, they cost a hell of a lot more.
Back when I was in college, CS was considered very lucrative (although that perception was starting to end back then). It was considered so lucrative that many people who had no business programming went into the field. I would've went the CS route too, if I didn't know that I had no temperament to do that full time. I was still a better computer science guy than anyone in the CS major, and was frequently asked for homework and project help by the CS majors (although I don't know how being good at CS translates to being a good at programming).
In fact, just to make a point of how lucrative CS was, there was a whole industry in the Russian immigrant community that was designed around creating fake programmers. They would be given a crash course in outdated crap like COBOL, and be provided with fake experience. My dad tried it, and had the job for one project that lasted three months, and made more than he made in a year doing low-level accounting work. My uncle did the same, and actually managed to acquire enough cred and experience to go legit, and he earns a lot these days.
That same industry exists in India. -_-
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:48:34 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 04, 2009, 08:45:56 AM
To be fair, I think this kind of crap came about during the dotcom boom's early days when expansion was going faster than there were experienced staff. There were all sorts of stories of Lolz! I guts ma MCSE and am making 80k a year with no skillz!
It irritated me when I was searching for a job that people with no experience but a paper cert were getting offers that I and my four years of actual work wasn't.
That is still a very aggravating problem. When I was recruiting, I'd have clients who would say "all candidates must have an MCSE or we won't even look at them". I might have a guy who's been a sys engineer for ten years, but lacks the paper cert, so I couldn't even get him in there. I suspect alot of people like that have started just lying about their Microsoft/CompTIA certs in the hopes that nobody ever asks to see their credential cards.
Assholes deserve what they get. Experience often trumps education. Especially in a field like IT, where screwing up learning from mistakes and fixing problems that aren't supposed to be possible in the first place is the only way to really succeed.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 04, 2009, 09:16:40 AMAssholes deserve what they get. Experience often trumps education. Especially in a field like IT, where screwing up learning from mistakes and fixing problems that aren't supposed to be possible in the first place is the only way to really succeed.
:yes:
Typically these sorts of job orders came from HR people at large companies who know absolutely nothing about IT, or from executive management at some small business, again who know absolutely nothing about IT. The other possibility is from an outsourcing firm that wants to brag to all their clients that every one of their people is Microsoft-certified or something.
I hope this chick wins big. It may finally show people that the legal system has become a giant slot machine and needs serious reform.
She may get a settlement, if the school is afraid of the trial basically putting the legitimacy of the school on trial. If so, you'll be out of luck Wags--I'm sure the settlement will have a nondisclosure portion.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 04, 2009, 09:22:07 AM
I hope this chick wins big. It may finally show people that the legal system has become a giant slot machine and needs serious reform.
I'm sorry, but the Elders of Zion cannot and will not allow that to happen. :console:
Quote from: alfred russel on August 04, 2009, 09:27:32 AM
She may get a settlement, if the school is afraid of the trial basically putting the legitimacy of the school on trial. If so, you'll be out of luck Wags--I'm sure the settlement will have a nondisclosure portion.
But if the school settles, won't every other student sue?
Now that I think about it, there is precedence for this sort of case in the for-profit world. I read about a case a few years ago where a bunch of students filed a class action against a for-profit surgical assistant program because none of them managed to get a job in the field. I'm not sure if they won but I think the school went out of business, so maybe bad publicity ruined what little reputation it had in the first place.
Although this girl is a complete moron (if she lived in the Bronx and was actually smart, she could have commuted to Fordham), do keep in mind that most of these schools truly are scams.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 04, 2009, 09:30:02 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 04, 2009, 09:27:32 AM
She may get a settlement, if the school is afraid of the trial basically putting the legitimacy of the school on trial. If so, you'll be out of luck Wags--I'm sure the settlement will have a nondisclosure portion.
But if the school settles, won't every other student sue?
They may fight it just to discourage that. But its sometimes cheaper to toss some money their way. On an unrelated note the insurance companies in Mass pay out to every fraud n the Commonwealth because its cheaper than doing investigation and prosecution.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 04, 2009, 09:30:02 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on August 04, 2009, 09:27:32 AM
She may get a settlement, if the school is afraid of the trial basically putting the legitimacy of the school on trial. If so, you'll be out of luck Wags--I'm sure the settlement will have a nondisclosure portion.
But if the school settles, won't every other student sue?
Probably not--put out a statement that the suit was groundless and this is a vindication of your position and you haven't admitted wrongdoing. You can't answer questions on any payout because you are bound by the settlement agreement, but are pleased with the terms. The woman gets $20k and doesn't speak to the media other than say no comment.
But ideally you would settle before this ever got into the papers in the first place.
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 08:40:08 AM
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 08:34:04 AM
You do realize accreditation doesn't mean as much as it used to, right? All the for-profit schools are "accredited" too.
Again, the for-profit schools are generally accredited at the school level and not at the program level. There is at least one thing you simply can't do with a non-accredited CS degree without jumping through a lot more hoops.
I concede the general point, though; when I was programming, there were any number of non-CS and even un-degreed colleagues around, and they certainly weren't any worse than the others. The best programmer I ever worked with had an MD, of all things.
Expected.
Universities I've encountered tend to suck at teaching programming, thats left utterly up to yourself.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 04, 2009, 09:35:38 AM
They may fight it just to discourage that. But its sometimes cheaper to toss some money their way. On an unrelated note the insurance companies in Mass pay out to every fraud n the Commonwealth because its cheaper than doing investigation and prosecution.
Interestingly enough, just a month ago I attended a presentation by guy who used to work at the Massachusetts Insurance Fraud Bureau. According to him, the bureau was created due to rampant fraud leading to escalating insurance costs, and it was effective at curtailing it. The runaway growth in insurance costs stopped once the bureau was put in action. He had the cool graphs to show the effect, so it must've been true. What you say may have been true 15 years ago, but I don't think it's true now.
Few times a year people die in some lame attempt at insurance fraud. I hope they've made the kind of major cleanup you say they say they have, but I'm still a bit skeptical.
Legal actions against Universities is a growing trend in Canada. The usual claim is either that the student didnt do well because the University failed to educate them properly or because the University failed to properly accomodate a disability (usually one that the student "discovers" after the fact).
It used to be that these kinds of claims would be summarily thrown out but Courts and Human Rights Tribinunals are beginning to allow these cases to be heard.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 08:59:37 AM
I've noticed that those that went to "good" schools generally demanded more than those coming out of community colleges.
I do take great pleasure in pointing out to my friends that my students loans are a small fraction of theirs because unlike them who went to "good" schools I went to state college. :D
:huh:
State schools can be quite good.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 08:59:37 AM
I've noticed that those that went to "good" schools generally demanded more than those coming out of community colleges.
Umm...duh? Why would that be any kind of shock? :huh:
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 10:54:05 AM
:huh:
State schools can be quite good.
And the one I went to was very good but ten years ago many of my friends were bragging because they were attending big name schools in the area (Syracuse, Cornell, etc) and assumed it would give them a big head start over me when they graduated. Funny how that worked out. :cool:
When you're a kid, you have no sense of perspective usually, so it's easy to drastically overvalue stuff like a school's "rep".
OTOH, in certain fields (law, business) it is pretty important to go to an elite school, primarily for the good networking opportunities.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 11:30:19 AM
When you're a kid, you have no sense of perspective usually, so it's easy to drastically overvalue stuff like a school's "rep".
OTOH, in certain fields (law, business) it is pretty important to go to an elite school, primarily for the good networking opportunities.
Not just networking.
In law, what school you went to (and how well you did there) is very important in getting your all-important first position ("articling" here in Canada). Thereafter, no-one cares in the least - it is all about experience.
Quote from: Malthus on August 04, 2009, 11:33:23 AM
Not just networking.
In law, what school you went to (and how well you did there) is very important in getting your all-important first position ("articling" here in Canada). Thereafter, no-one cares in the least - it is all about experience.
I kinda see that as a function of networking. Probably the senior partners went to elite schools, so they favor others who did as well. They want their firm stocked with elite grads so they can position it as an elite firm.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 11:36:04 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 04, 2009, 11:33:23 AM
Not just networking.
In law, what school you went to (and how well you did there) is very important in getting your all-important first position ("articling" here in Canada). Thereafter, no-one cares in the least - it is all about experience.
I kinda see that as a function of networking. Probably the senior partners went to elite schools, so they favor others who did as well. They want their firm stocked with elite grads so they can position it as an elite firm.
There is that. But as well, there is the perception that the top law schools are very difficult to get into, thus selecting for better employment picks.
In Canada at least, the financial component isn't as significant as the difficulty of gaining entry - the top schools generally have ten times or more as many applicants as they accept. Thus a "B" average from a top school counts for more than an "A" average from a lower-ranking school, where both are graded to the curve.
Quote from: Malthus on August 04, 2009, 11:33:23 AM
In law, what school you went to (and how well you did there) is very important in getting your all-important first position ("articling" here in Canada).
Not at all, and you know it. The difference in quality between all Canadian schools is pretty narrow. U of T might give you a slight edge in getting a Bay Street job, but it's up for debate whether it makes the dramatically higher tuition worthwhile.
Quote from: Malthus on August 04, 2009, 11:40:23 AM
In Canada at least, the financial component isn't as significant as the difficulty of gaining entry - the top schools generally have ten times or more as many applicants as they accept.
That is true for all schools. U of M law has a similar stat.
Quote from: Barrister on August 04, 2009, 11:40:47 AM
Quote from: Malthus on August 04, 2009, 11:33:23 AM
In law, what school you went to (and how well you did there) is very important in getting your all-important first position ("articling" here in Canada).
Not at all, and you know it. The difference in quality between all Canadian schools is pretty narrow. U of T might give you a slight edge in getting a Bay Street job, but it's up for debate whether it makes the dramatically higher tuition worthwhile.
Well, my only experience is with Bay Street jobs, where "what school you went to" is, I can say from actual knowledge, a very important consideration.
The "actual quality" of the different schools is quite irrelevant, the issue is what employers are looking for, not how good the schools are.
I've done some on campus interviews, and my attitude became that it is much better to recruit only at the better schools. I never want to go recruit at a school that isn't top 30 or a flagship state school again--not that there aren't good candidates at other schools, but the consistency isn't there and it makes the job of recruiting much more of a pain in the ass.
Yeah, stay away from the proles.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 11:36:04 AM
I kinda see that as a function of networking. Probably the senior partners went to elite schools, so they favor others who did as well. They want their firm stocked with elite grads so they can position it as an elite firm.
I think that has a lot to do with it. As alumni I help fund raise and do some teaching from time to time. It is natural for me to look more favourably on students with excellent grades from that school. I know what I am getting or at least I have a better idea of what I am getting then someone who applies from a school I dont know anything about.
Since most people doing hiring in this area graduated from either UBC or U of T those schools will necessarily be preferred.
Quote from: Malthus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:04 AM
The "actual quality" of the different schools is quite irrelevant, the issue is what employers are looking for, not how good the schools are.
Agreed.
lame. The school should sue her for not keeping up with academic standards and failing to get a job.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 04, 2009, 11:54:21 AM
Yeah, stay away from the proles.
It isn't about avoiding proles--just misspellings in resumes and really awkward interviews.
Quote from: alfred russel on August 04, 2009, 11:45:51 AM
I've done some on campus interviews, and my attitude became that it is much better to recruit only at the better schools. I never want to go recruit at a school that isn't top 30 or a flagship state school again--not that there aren't good candidates at other schools, but the consistency isn't there and it makes the job of recruiting much more of a pain in the ass.
I had the misfortune of doing on-campus interviews at Spencerian College, which is a for-profit school probably similar to this 'Monroe College' outfit. :bleeding:
What's interesting is that top-notch schools will often take transfer students from community colleges or lesser-known schools because so many of their first- and second-year students dropped out. The transfer students can get the "ivy league" diploma at half the cost by going to a community college first.
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 12:48:42 PM
What's interesting is that top-notch schools will often take transfer students from community colleges or lesser-known schools because so many of their first- and second-year students dropped out. The transfer students can get the "ivy league" diploma at half the cost by going to a community college first.
:huh: I don't think the dropout rate at the Ivys is especially high. I know it isn't at Harvard... but then again Harvard is easy. The only thing hard about Harvard College is getting in.
I think alot of the elite non-Ivy League schools are alot more challenging, e.g. U. Chicago, Johns Hopkins, etc.
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 12:48:42 PM
What's interesting is that top-notch schools will often take transfer students from community colleges or lesser-known schools because so many of their first- and second-year students dropped out. The transfer students can get the "ivy league" diploma at half the cost by going to a community college first.
Taking a pretty big risk assuming you can transfer in....
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 12:55:04 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 12:48:42 PM
What's interesting is that top-notch schools will often take transfer students from community colleges or lesser-known schools because so many of their first- and second-year students dropped out. The transfer students can get the "ivy league" diploma at half the cost by going to a community college first.
Taking a pretty big risk assuming you can transfer in....
And that all your credits will transfer. The University of Michigan and Notre Dame didn't accept all classes from Community Colleges back when I was looking at colleges.
Hell, Princesca transferred from one graduate school to another at BU and had trouble getting some of her credits accepted. :blink:
The University of Illinois - Champaign/Urbana is one of the top engineering schools in the country. (Ranked in the top five last I checked, but that was a couple of years ago.) Anyway, their admissions folks said that they're almost desperate for transfer students at the junior level in that program. The application process is no less rigorous, but the first two years of classes are taken elsewhere, usually at a community college.
Dunno if that would apply to schools like Harvard, but the more rigorous programs like Georgia Tech and UIUC seem to embrace it.
Quote from: Savonarola on August 04, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 12:55:04 PM
Taking a pretty big risk assuming you can transfer in....
And that all your credits will transfer. The University of Michigan and Notre Dame didn't accept all classes from Community Colleges back when I was looking at colleges.
Depends on the program and the community college. Most universities that I've looked at (granted, most were in Iowa and Illinois) have a reciprocal program with their local community colleges. You have to meet their guidelines (get a certain GPA, take certain classes, etc.) but if you do so, it's unusual NOT to get into their tougher programs. Again, they have to meet the same rigorous guidelines as incoming Freshmen, but it's much easier to get in that way if you do, and it costs considerably less.
Why are they desperate Meri?
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:20:49 PM
Why are they desperate Meri?
To keep their numbers up. A lot of Freshmen and Sophomores drop out once they hit the higher-level classes.
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 01:20:40 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on August 04, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 12:55:04 PM
Taking a pretty big risk assuming you can transfer in....
And that all your credits will transfer. The University of Michigan and Notre Dame didn't accept all classes from Community Colleges back when I was looking at colleges.
Depends on the program and the community college. Most universities that I've looked at (granted, most were in Iowa and Illinois) have a reciprocal program with their local community colleges. You have to meet their guidelines (get a certain GPA, take certain classes, etc.) but if you do so, it's unusual NOT to get into their tougher programs. Again, they have to meet the same rigorous guidelines as incoming Freshmen, but it's much easier to get in that way if you do, and it costs considerably less.
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 01:22:45 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:20:49 PM
Why are they desperate Meri?
To keep their numbers up. A lot of Freshmen and Sophomores drop out once they hit the higher-level classes.
That is usually what happens. That is why the number of seats are reduced in upper levels. Usually competition is fierce to get those spots.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PMI think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
I've not heard of it either, but I think it's weird that you would expect Canadian higher ed to be identical to what we have here. :huh:
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 01:18:07 PM
Dunno if that would apply to schools like Harvard, but the more rigorous programs like Georgia Tech and UIUC seem to embrace it.
Well it is certainly not the case at Princeton. All transfers immediately become freshmen again.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PMI think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
I've not heard of it either, but I think it's weird that you would expect Canadian higher ed to be identical to what we have here. :huh:
It is the case with the California schools. You can do two years at junior college and then transfer into the UC system.
I don't know of anyone who ever transferred in to Harvard, so I've got no idea how it works... one of my friends at MIT considered transferring to Harvard like midway through his bachelor's, but he never did it for whatever reason.
My goddaughter took those required entry classes at a CC before she goes off to Ohio State. Why pay through the nose for a worthless art class when you can get it for 75 bucks a credit hour? Had no trouble transferring the credits.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 01:29:06 PM
My goddaughter took those required entry classes at a CC before she goes off to Ohio State. Why pay through the nose for a worthless art class when you can get it for 75 bucks a credit hour? Had no trouble transferring the credits.
She is missing out on "the Ohio State Experience"(TM). :(
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 01:31:40 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 01:29:06 PM
My goddaughter took those required entry classes at a CC before she goes off to Ohio State. Why pay through the nose for a worthless art class when you can get it for 75 bucks a credit hour? Had no trouble transferring the credits.
She is missing out on "the Ohio State Experience"(TM). :(
She is going in the fall. :huh:
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
With respect you should look more closely. It has become very common over the last maybe 10 years. In Alberta people would do a year or two at say NAIT or Grant McEwan, then transfer to U of A. Up here in Yukon, a lot of local kids will do their first year or two at Yukon College, then take those credits down south to finish a university degree.
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 01:34:31 PM
She is going in the fall. :huh:
But she missed out on "the Ohio State Experience"(TM) when she should have been getting it earlier. Her life: ruined :(
I took my basic math/science courses at the local CC. My instructors were all UIUC grad school grads, and several were former UIUC TA's. Thye all claimed the CC classes were superior because of the class sizes. They were a lot cheaper too, and transfer without a question-- they are tailored to UIUC specs.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 01:34:31 PM
She is going in the fall. :huh:
But she missed out on "the Ohio State Experience"(TM) when she should have been getting it earlier. Her life: ruined :(
Yeah, going there at age 17. OVER MY DEAD BODY.
is she hot btw? :)
Have you found her a husband yet? Or do you think she is above marriagable age?
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 01:27:17 PM
I've not heard of it either, but I think it's weird that you would expect Canadian higher ed to be identical to what we have here. :huh:
Most Universities work on a similar model.
Quote from: Barrister on August 04, 2009, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
With respect you should look more closely. It has become very common over the last maybe 10 years. In Alberta people would do a year or two at say NAIT or Grant McEwan, then transfer to U of A. Up here in Yukon, a lot of local kids will do their first year or two at Yukon College, then take those credits down south to finish a university degree.
I am not saying that people dont transfer. Of course they do. What I am saying is it would be very unusual that there is a formal guarrantee that they can transfer in the way Meri desribed it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:45:39 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 04, 2009, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
With respect you should look more closely. It has become very common over the last maybe 10 years. In Alberta people would do a year or two at say NAIT or Grant McEwan, then transfer to U of A. Up here in Yukon, a lot of local kids will do their first year or two at Yukon College, then take those credits down south to finish a university degree.
I am not saying that people dont transfer. Of course they do. What I am saying is it would be very unusual that there is a formal guarrantee that they can transfer in the way Meri desribed it.
There is a formal guarantee. :huh:
Just as an example, here is a webpage showing you what Yukon College credits will transfer into other university credits at different universities. All BC Universities have such transfer agreements. And it isn't a northern-only thing either - I bet all BC colleges have agreements with BC universities.
http://www.yukoncollege.yk.ca/arts_science/transfer_credit.php
Its in the upper two years that schools have to prove their worth anyways. Many of my teachers at my community college were college professors who I guess needed an extra buck. :P But they brought their university shit to my community accessible stomping grounds!
Quote from: Barrister on August 04, 2009, 01:49:31 PM
I bet all BC colleges have agreements with BC universities.
http://www.yukoncollege.yk.ca/arts_science/transfer_credit.php
These are not agreements. Universities have ad hoc committees which review what credits they will accept from other institutions. Every University reserves the right to change these without notice.
I love the ITT commercials with the fine print in tiny type:
Credits unlikely to transfer
Quote from: Ed Anger on August 04, 2009, 02:02:05 PM
I love the ITT commercials with the fine print in tiny type:
Credits unlikely to transfer
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well yeah, nobody is ever going to accept any 'credits' from ITT, except maybe another scam school.
New York's University system (SUNY) does the same thing. If you go to a New York Community College and either get an Associates Degree or join a 2+2 program (two years at the CC but no degree than two years at a University) plus have at least a 3.0 GPA than you are guaranteed admission and acceptance as a transfer student to a four year program. Some of the CC schools even had 2+2 programs with schools like Colgate.
It's better for parents and students because a lot of the better SUNY schools won't accept Freshmen and Sophomores into their programs. So, why pay the higher cost to take General ED classes if you don't have to do so.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 02:11:57 PM
Well yeah, nobody is ever going to accept any 'credits' from ITT, except maybe another scam school.
I love the Criminal Justice degrees. ITT, producing Farva's for the Police.
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 12:48:42 PM
What's interesting is that top-notch schools will often take transfer students from community colleges or lesser-known schools because so many of their first- and second-year students dropped out. The transfer students can get the "ivy league" diploma at half the cost by going to a community college first.
I've a friend did that here too.
Costs aren't a issue in the UK of course, they're pretty uniform across the board. But grading...Well good schools have it harder to get high marks.
So my friend went to a crappy ex-poly for 2 years, got a average safely over 70% then transferred over into a top 20 in the country uni and graduated with a 1st. He still had to do alright in his last year of course but getting such good grades before that are what gave him top marks.
In Sweden its apparently really common for students to do most of their degree in a shitty local university then transfer into one of the big name schools for their final year.
Quote from: Caliga on August 04, 2009, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PMI think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
I've not heard of it either, but I think it's weird that you would expect Canadian higher ed to be identical to what we have here. :huh:
UBC and SFU both accept credits from the Douglases, Kwantlens, Cariboos, Capilanos et al. That's why all those colleges have university transfer programs.
Most Uni's are about grads, faculty and endowments anyway. Undergrads are there largely to pay tuition, see everyone gets paid and have the top x% get skimmed and streamed for grad school or advanced studies.
Anyhow, very little of academic importance happens in the first two years of school anyway.
Quote from: saskganesh on August 04, 2009, 02:35:02 PM
Anyhow, very little of academic importance happens in the first two years of school anyway.
Except ensuring that you can get a place in the higher level courses which brings me back to my original point that if one goes to a junior college with the intent of later transfering to the University there is some risk that the space might not be available. The university will always accept their own students with good grades into the upper level courses first. Then if they have seats remaining they will look at transfer students.
The students who go to the University for the first two years are risking that their grades will be high enough to go on (since it is probably easier to get a good grade at one of the junior colleges) and the college students are risking whether enough University first and second year students wont do well enough to take all the available seats.
Quote from: saskganesh on August 04, 2009, 02:35:02 PM
Anyhow, very little of academic importance happens in the first two years of school anyway.
I don't know about that. In my college, if you blew off the first two years, you'd be lost during the next two. Then again, I went an engineering college, so we didn't have fluff degrees.
Quote from: DGuller on August 04, 2009, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: saskganesh on August 04, 2009, 02:35:02 PM
Anyhow, very little of academic importance happens in the first two years of school anyway.
I don't know about that. In my college, if you blew off the first two years, you'd be lost during the next two. Then again, I went an engineering college, so we didn't have fluff degrees.
He was talking about hippie college. Very little happens in the later years as well.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 02:41:34 PM
Except ensuring that you can get a place in the higher level courses which brings me back to my original point that if one goes to a junior college with the intent of later transfering to the University there is some risk that the space might not be available. The university will always accept their own students with good grades into the upper level courses first. Then if they have seats remaining they will look at transfer students.
The students who go to the University for the first two years are risking that their grades will be high enough to go on (since it is probably easier to get a good grade at one of the junior colleges) and the college students are risking whether enough University first and second year students wont do well enough to take all the available seats.
I don't know about elsewhere but here that was never an issue. A certain number of places are reserved for transfers.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 04, 2009, 01:20:40 PM
Quote from: Savonarola on August 04, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 12:55:04 PM
Taking a pretty big risk assuming you can transfer in....
And that all your credits will transfer. The University of Michigan and Notre Dame didn't accept all classes from Community Colleges back when I was looking at colleges.
Depends on the program and the community college. Most universities that I've looked at (granted, most were in Iowa and Illinois) have a reciprocal program with their local community colleges. You have to meet their guidelines (get a certain GPA, take certain classes, etc.) but if you do so, it's unusual NOT to get into their tougher programs. Again, they have to meet the same rigorous guidelines as incoming Freshmen, but it's much easier to get in that way if you do, and it costs considerably less.
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
Pretty sure the University of Rhode Island has some kind of reciprocal program with CCRI.
Quote from: Maximus on August 04, 2009, 02:45:51 PM
I don't know about elsewhere but here that was never an issue. A certain number of places are reserved for transfers.
That is what I understood from Mari's post, which is why I said I found it unusual. Apparently they do it in California as well, according to Garbon.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
I think you'd be surprised at how many universities in the U.S. do this now. They're not saying that the first two years of their education is the same as the community college, but that the gen ed stuff isn't as important to them as the major requirements, which have to be done at the university itself, typically. Get the gen eds done, then come talk to us. If you do them at the community college they're affiliated with, all of the gen eds usually transfer.
Better to have tuition for two years than none, and since a lot of people can't afford four years at a university, this is a valid route that benefits everyone involved.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 02:00:49 PM
These are not agreements. Universities have ad hoc committees which review what credits they will accept from other institutions. Every University reserves the right to change these without notice.
Surprised this wouldn't be set at the provincial level, though; you don't have a province-wide organization running all of the (public) colleges and universities?
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 02:00:49 PM
These are not agreements. Universities have ad hoc committees which review what credits they will accept from other institutions. Every University reserves the right to change these without notice.
Surprised this wouldn't be set at the provincial level, though; you don't have a province-wide organization running all of the (public) colleges and universities?
No we dont. Universities in BC (and in most other provinces) are private actors although they are created by legislation. UBC is governed by its own board of governors.
Kind of like the Chartered banks in that respect.
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 05:45:09 PM
No we dont. Universities in BC (and in most other provinces) are private actors although they are created by legislation. UBC is governed by its own board of governors.
Kind of like the Chartered banks in that respect.
I believe the Board of Regents of the University System of Georgia is in a similar position. But, because it has authority over the entire University System, it is in the Board's interest to allow students to transfer from the community colleges into the full four year universities, and they can set the standards that way, etc.
Quote from: Strix on August 04, 2009, 02:12:43 PM
New York's University system (SUNY) does the same thing. If you go to a New York Community College and either get an Associates Degree or join a 2+2 program (two years at the CC but no degree than two years at a University) plus have at least a 3.0 GPA than you are guaranteed admission and acceptance as a transfer student to a four year program. Some of the CC schools even had 2+2 programs with schools like Colgate.
It's better for parents and students because a lot of the better SUNY schools won't accept Freshmen and Sophomores into their programs. So, why pay the higher cost to take General ED classes if you don't have to do so.
Exactly. I did this and it saved me alot of money. Ironically the Associate Program was harder than the one at the 4 year school. The Associate program for Computer Science required Physics I & II which I tanked but when I transferred my two science credits the courses that transferred were "Science of Multimedia" (i.e. a course on flash) and "Science of Light" (a glorified Photoshop program).
A BBA who was probably too illiterate to read the placement percentages before attending deserves all the shafting she can get.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on August 04, 2009, 08:19:56 PM
A BBA who was probably too illiterate to read the placement percentages before attending deserves all the shafting she can get.
BBA?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 04, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on August 04, 2009, 08:19:56 PM
A BBA who was probably too illiterate to read the placement percentages before attending deserves all the shafting she can get.
BBA?
Bachelor's in Business Arts. Did you bother reading your article before you posted it? ;)
Quote from: ulmont on August 04, 2009, 06:00:30 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 05:45:09 PM
No we dont. Universities in BC (and in most other provinces) are private actors although they are created by legislation. UBC is governed by its own board of governors.
Kind of like the Chartered banks in that respect.
I believe the Board of Regents of the University System of Georgia is in a similar position. But, because it has authority over the entire University System, it is in the Board's interest to allow students to transfer from the community colleges into the full four year universities, and they can set the standards that way, etc.
We dont have a board that controls the whole system. Each University and each college has its own board. They compete for students and so it doesnt make much sense to enter into the kind of agreements BB was talking about. They may recognize certain credits from other institutions but there is no guarrantee of that which again brings me back to my point about the risks involved in going to a junior school first. It might work out well but there are no guarranties.
In Hong Kong, the dropout rates from universities is low - 1-2% per year, from all causes. It is TOUGH to get in except as a freshman. Tens of thousands of people do "associate degrees", which are essentially first and second years with the promise that they may get into a third (and final) year. May. Turns out that chance is very, very slim.
Quote from: Barrister on August 04, 2009, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
I think that would be very unusual. I know of no universities in Canada that have a reciprocal program with anyone in the way you have described it. Further, I dont know of many Universities that would formally admit that the first two years of their undergraduate program was equivalent to that of a junior community college.
With respect you should look more closely. It has become very common over the last maybe 10 years. In Alberta people would do a year or two at say NAIT or Grant McEwan, then transfer to U of A. Up here in Yukon, a lot of local kids will do their first year or two at Yukon College, then take those credits down south to finish a university degree.
:yes:
and to make it easier the moustache twirling "Liberals" here in BC have given every halfassed community college in the province University status! They can raise tuition and get bigger and bigger. transfer on in!
ps is there a way anyone, to change the quoting system so when it starts the cursor is at the very end of what's being quoted by you instead of someone else? annnoying!!!
Quote from: crazy canuck on August 04, 2009, 08:50:53 PM
We dont have a board that controls the whole system. Each University and each college has its own board. They compete for students and so it doesnt make much sense to enter into the kind of agreements BB was talking about. They may recognize certain credits from other institutions but there is no guarrantee of that which again brings me back to my point about the risks involved in going to a junior school first. It might work out well but there are no guarranties.
This is a given. It's best to check into this based on the University that you want to go to. Some credits will not transfer while others will. It's no different than transferring from one four-year university to another. Just cheaper. :P
Quote from: Monoriu on August 04, 2009, 08:54:31 PM
In Hong Kong, the dropout rates from universities is low - 1-2% per year, from all causes. It is TOUGH to get in except as a freshman. Tens of thousands of people do "associate degrees", which are essentially first and second years with the promise that they may get into a third (and final) year. May. Turns out that chance is very, very slim.
But we know that how things are done there has little bearing on how they're done in the ROTW. Education especially is a unique beast in Asia compared to the Western World. You all just do things very differently there.