https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/
QuoteMore than 60 percent of young men are single, nearly twice the rate of unattached young women, signaling a larger breakdown in the social, romantic and sexual life of the American male.
Men in their 20s are more likely than women in their 20s to be romantically uninvolved, sexually dormant, friendless and lonely. They stand at the vanguard of an epidemic of declining marriage, sexuality and relationships that afflicts all of young America.
"We're in a crisis of connection," said Niobe Way, a psychology professor and founder of the Project for the Advancement of Our Common Humanity at New York University. "Disconnection from ourselves and disconnection from each other. And it's getting worse."
In the worst-case scenario, the young American man's social disconnect can have tragic consequences. Young men commit suicide at four times the rate of young women. Younger men are largely responsible for rising rates of mass shootings, a trend some researchers link to their growing social isolation.
Societal changes that began in the Eisenhower years have eroded the patriarchy that once ruled the American home, classroom and workplace. Women now collect nearly 60 percent of bachelor's degrees. Men still earn more, but among the youngest adults, the income gap has narrowed to $43 a week.
Scholars say the new era of gender parity has reshaped relationship dynamics, empowering young women and, in many cases, removing young men from the equation.
"Women don't need to be in long-term relationships. They don't need to be married. They'd rather go to brunch with friends than have a horrible date," said Greg Matos, a couple and family psychologist in Los Angeles, who recently penned a viral article titled "What's Behind the Rise of Lonely, Single Men."
Recent years have seen a historic rise in "unpartnered" Americans, particularly among the young. The pandemic made things worse.
As of 2022, Pew Research Center found, 30 percent of U.S. adults are neither married, living with a partner nor engaged in a committed relationship. Nearly half of all young adults are single: 34 percent of women, and a whopping 63 percent of men.
Not surprisingly, the decline in relationships marches astride with a decline in sex. The share of sexually active Americans stands at a 30-year low. Around 30 percent of young men reported in 2019 that they had no sex in the past year, compared to about 20 percent of young women.
Only half of single men are actively seeking relationships or even casual dates, according to Pew. That figure is declining.
"You have to think that the pandemic had an impact on some of those numbers," said Fred Rabinowitz, a psychologist and professor at the University of Redlands who studies masculinity.
Young men "are watching a lot of social media, they're watching a lot of porn, and I think they're getting a lot of their needs met without having to go out. And I think that's starting to be a habit."
Even seasoned researchers struggle to fully account for the relationship gap between young women and men: If single young men outnumber single young women nearly two to one, then who are all the young women dating?
Some of them are dating each other. One-fifth of Generation Z identifies as queer, and research suggests bisexual women make up a large share of the young-adult queer community.
Young women are also dating and marrying slightly older men, carrying on a tradition that stretches back more than a century. The average age at first marriage is around 30 for men, 28 for women, according to census figures.
Heterosexual women are getting more choosy. Women "don't want to marry down," to form a long-term relationship to a man with less education and earnings than herself, said Ronald Levant, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Akron and author of several books on masculinity.
In previous generations, young women entered adulthood in a society that expected them to find a financially stable man who would support them through decades of marriage and motherhood. Over the 1950s and 1960s, that pattern gradually broke down, and today it is all but gone.
Women are tiring of their stereotypical role as full-time therapist for emotionally distant men. They want a partner who is emotionally open and empathetic, the opposite of the age-old masculine ideal.
"Today in America, women expect more from men," Levant said, "and unfortunately, so many men don't have more to give."
The same emotional deficits that hurt men in the dating pool also hamper them in forming meaningful friendships. Fifteen percent of men report having no close friendships, a fivefold increase from 1990, according to research by the Survey Center on American Life.
"Men are less naturally relational than women," said Richard Reeves, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution whose new book, "Of Boys and Men," has drawn wide praise.
Reeves points to a recent Saturday Night Live sketch that reimagined the neighborhood dog park as a "man park," poking fun at "this reliance of men on women to do the emotional lifting for them."
Social circles have been shrinking for men and women, especially since the pandemic, but men struggle more. Thirty years ago, 55 percent of men reported having six or more close friends. By 2021, that share had slipped to 27 percent.
"Women form friendships with each other that are emotionally intimate, whereas men do not," Levant said. Young women "may not be dating, but they have girlfriends they spend time with and gain emotional support from."
Aaron Karo and Matt Ritter, both in their early 40s, study the male "friendship recession" in their "Man of the Year" podcast. It arose out of an annual tradition of gathering at a steakhouse with several male friends, all close since elementary school
"Guys are taught to prioritize career," Karo said. "Also romantic relationships, although it doesn't seem like they're doing a very good job at that. Making friends and keeping friends seems to be a lower priority. And once guys get older, they suddenly realize they have no friends."
The podcasters and their friends created the annual gathering as a way to keep their friendship alive. It spawned a year-round group chat and a "Man of the Year" trophy, awarded to the most deserving friend at the annual dinner.
"We treat friendship as a luxury, especially men," Ritter said. "It's a necessity."
Surely the main discovery here is in the flaws of self reported stats?
And/or women vastly overrate their situationships. And/or the lesbians are taking over, run to the hills.
(https://i.ibb.co/3zmWD9t/Friends-Disappoint.gif)
Quote from: Josquius on February 23, 2023, 06:29:26 AMSurely the main discovery here is in the flaws of self reported stats?
And/or women vastly overrate their situationships. And/or the lesbians are taking over, run to the hills.
Undisclosed polygamy :P
There were some studies a little while back that dating apps are largely skewed to a low percentage of men. 20% of men get 80% of the action (I maybe misremembering the percentages and confusing it with the 80/20 rule :D , but it's around there )
Another possibility is that young women are in relationships with middle aged men or young foreigners. :hmm: Or rampant lesbianism.
It tracks. Men now need to change, both hetero & gay men.
QuoteAs of 2022, Pew Research Center found, 30 percent of U.S. adults are neither married, living with a partner nor engaged in a committed relationship. Nearly half of all young adults are single: 34 percent of women, and a whopping 63 percent of men.
I feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
QuoteHeterosexual women are getting more choosy. Women "don't want to marry down," to form a long-term relationship to a man with less education and earnings than herself
There was a time when heterosexual women wanted to form a long-term relationship with a man with less education and earnings than herself? Certainly not a time I was dating. That was, generally, the thing you were filtered for.
Quote from: The Larch on February 23, 2023, 08:53:27 AMAnother possibility is that young women are in relationships with middle aged men or young foreigners. :hmm: Or rampant lesbianism.
Those are items mentioned in it. :P
Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2023, 10:50:03 AMQuote from: The Larch on February 23, 2023, 08:53:27 AMAnother possibility is that young women are in relationships with middle aged men or young foreigners. :hmm: Or rampant lesbianism.
Those are items mentioned in it. :P
I read the article after posting my comment. :sleep:
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMThere was a time when heterosexual women wanted to form a long-term relationship with a man with less education and earnings than herself? Certainly not a time I was dating. That was, generally, the thing you were filtered for.
There was a time when they didn't have many options to marry someone earning less then themselves unless they married an unemployed man :lol:
Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 10:52:46 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMThere was a time when heterosexual women wanted to form a long-term relationship with a man with less education and earnings than herself? Certainly not a time I was dating. That was, generally, the thing you were filtered for.
There was a time when they didn't have many options to marry someone earning less then themselves unless they married an unemployed man :lol:
Right. I think it is more about their rising status than having higher standards.
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:54:41 AMQuote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 10:52:46 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMThere was a time when heterosexual women wanted to form a long-term relationship with a man with less education and earnings than herself? Certainly not a time I was dating. That was, generally, the thing you were filtered for.
There was a time when they didn't have many options to marry someone earning less then themselves unless they married an unemployed man :lol:
Right. I think it is more about their rising status than having higher standards.
Damn. I hate it when women have high standards. :(
Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2023, 06:17:24 AMhttps://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/
QuoteYoung women are also dating and marrying slightly older men, carrying on a tradition that stretches back more than a century.
I think a little more than that.
This has always been an issue. The difference is that porn has been replacing houses of prostitution and openly lesbian-bi relationships replacing convents and the like.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 09:21:02 AMIt tracks. Men now need to change, both hetero & gay men.
Yeah. I don't think the problem is with women becoming more choosey or anything. They have always been choosey. That's not it. It is a problem with us.
Though I will say society doesn't seem to like young men at all. At least that was my experience. I generally felt most people felt threatened by me or generally didn't find my company nice to have around. Now granted maybe that was just my insecurities being projected on others. Though I did find it noticeable as I got older people started being nicer to me. The middle aged man is not the scary monster the young man is. I used to feel isolated all the time, now it seems like I am making friends wherever I go. I don't know if I have changed that much.
So I kind of get that social interaction for the young guy is tough, it is not always pleasant. I had a supportive family and friends to get me through it. So I get it.
What what can be done? I don't know. Obviously it is a society wide problem so we should do something.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 23, 2023, 11:03:37 AMQuote from: garbon on February 23, 2023, 06:17:24 AMhttps://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/
QuoteYoung women are also dating and marrying slightly older men, carrying on a tradition that stretches back more than a century.
I think a little more than that.
This has always been an issue. The difference is that porn has been replacing houses of prostitution and openly lesbian-bi relationships replacing convents and the like.
Ah. Someone is a connoisseur of lesbian-bi porn.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2023, 11:02:58 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:54:41 AMQuote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 10:52:46 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMThere was a time when heterosexual women wanted to form a long-term relationship with a man with less education and earnings than herself? Certainly not a time I was dating. That was, generally, the thing you were filtered for.
There was a time when they didn't have many options to marry someone earning less then themselves unless they married an unemployed man :lol:
Right. I think it is more about their rising status than having higher standards.
Damn. I hate it when women have high standards. :(
Do you pursue relationships with women very often?
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
Maybe the young adult males should pursue lots of Karens. Two societal problems defeated.
Hell they all seem to already want to have sex with their step moms if my internet research is to be believed.
I'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 11:11:16 AMQuote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
Maybe the young adult males should pursue lots of Karens. Two societal problems defeated.
Hell they all seem to already want to have sex with their step mom's if my internet research is to be believed.
The incels are not managers though.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
You can find them in the women freaking out about Leo's dating habits :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMYeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
Do you think there's actually been a change in middle aged female behavriour? I always had the whole "Karen" thing down to a social media fashion to look for, name, and share a certain set of behaviour that always existed.
Quote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:11:53 AMI'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
As a percentage of men marring and carrying on their genes, probably similar. A lot less young men dying in wars after ww2. Historical peace has its down sides.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
A "Karen" is typically an entitled middle-aged woman, most likely married (whether happy or not).
Feels like the opposite of an incel, who doesn't have the self-esteem that a Karen has.
Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 11:12:56 AMQuote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
You can find them in the women freaking out about Leo's dating habits :lol:
Leo's dating habits are getting creepier and creepier though...
Quote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:11:53 AMI'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
It does seem like back in ye olde tymes men would marry much younger women and younger men would be finding their way in the world. Even my more recent ancestors had a time where they had to fend for themselves before inheriting the family farm and settling down later in life. But I don't know, as I wasn't there. For my parent's generation (Silent Generation) it seems like there was an expectation of both sexes marrying right out of High School. Maybe that period was the anomaly.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:15:59 AMQuote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 11:12:56 AMQuote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:09:47 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMI feel like there is something left out of these stats. If 34 percent of young women are single and 63 percent of young men then those stats should be flipped for older adults yes?
Yeah, which means the correlary of the young adult male incel is the middle aged female incel. Which might explain the rise of the Karen.
You can find them in the women freaking out about Leo's dating habits :lol:
Leo's dating habits are getting creepier and creepier though...
He's a celebrity, they're always on the far side of the bell curve. But why care enough to be offended? The models obviously get something out of it or they wouldn't do it. And no one cares when it's a madona or Shakira craddle robbing :D
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 11:16:31 AMQuote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:11:53 AMI'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
It does seem like back in ye olde tymes men would marry much younger women and younger men would be finding their way in the world. Even my more recent ancestors had a time where they had to fend for themselves before inheriting the family farm and settling down later in life. But I don't know, as I wasn't there. For my parent's generation (Silent Generation) it seems like there was an expectation of both sexes marrying right out of High School. Maybe that period was the anomaly.
There's a lot of factors out there (like social media and availability of porn), but in our parents generation (mine are firmly Baby Boomers - your parents are older I guess) a man with a high school education (or not even that) could go out and get a well-paying job right away with nothing more than being a physical labourer. Women, what with the general attitude of discrimination against women plus the relative unimportance of unskilled indoor work, generally could not.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:20:49 AMThere's a lot of factors out there (like social media and availability of porn), but in our parents generation (mine are firmly Baby Boomers - your parents are older I guess) a man with a high school education (or not even that) could go out and get a well-paying job right away with nothing more than being a physical labourer. Women, what with the general attitude of discrimination against women plus the relative unimportance of unskilled indoor work, generally could not.
It is kind of odd though because today labor, especially anything having to do with construction, seems much more expensive than it used to be. It seems like if you wanted to become a contractor or a plumber or those kinds of careers you could do pretty well right out of High School...at least by the standards of somebody that age.
You could, and some do. And by that same token you'd be hard pressed to find a single young construction worker (at least based on Those I know)
Quote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:13:49 AMDo you think there's actually been a change in middle aged female behavriour? I always had the whole "Karen" thing down to a social media fashion to look for, name, and share a certain set of behaviour that always existed.
I don't know. Both are plausible to me.
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 11:23:47 AMQuote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:20:49 AMThere's a lot of factors out there (like social media and availability of porn), but in our parents generation (mine are firmly Baby Boomers - your parents are older I guess) a man with a high school education (or not even that) could go out and get a well-paying job right away with nothing more than being a physical labourer. Women, what with the general attitude of discrimination against women plus the relative unimportance of unskilled indoor work, generally could not.
It is kind of odd though because today labor, especially anything having to do with construction, seems much more expensive than it used to be. It seems like if you wanted to become a contractor or a plumber or those kinds of careers you could do pretty well right out of High School...at least by the standards of somebody that age.
Contractor or plumber takes some level of skill and training.
I still say that we overthink this.
We've, collectively, spent the last 60 years teaching our daughters to not accept behaviours that are still prevalent in young men. We can't start wondering why these women now are not interested in these young men.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:15:36 AMA "Karen" is typically an entitled middle-aged woman, most likely married (whether happy or not).
Not that I have evidence to the contrary, but how do you know this? The Karen clips I watch don't provide much in the way of bios.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 11:54:35 AMI still say that we overthink this.
We've, collectively, spent the last 60 years teaching our daughters to not accept behaviours that are still prevalent in young men. We can't start wondering why these women now are not interested in these young men.
We've been teaching our sons not to do certain behaviours as well though.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 11:54:35 AMI still say that we overthink this.
We've, collectively, spent the last 60 years teaching our daughters to not accept behaviours that are still prevalent in young men. We can't start wondering why these women now are not interested in these young men.
Interesting. What sort of behaviors are you talking about?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 23, 2023, 11:58:36 AMQuote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:15:36 AMA "Karen" is typically an entitled middle-aged woman, most likely married (whether happy or not).
Not that I have evidence to the contrary, but how do you know this? The Karen clips I watch don't provide much in the way of bios.
Entitled and middle aged is pretty self-explanatory.
Married (or I should add, divorced) comes from the entitled part - they don't strike me as women who feel like no man is interested in them. As much as you can characterize such a carefully well constructed meme as the "Karen".
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:48:03 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 11:23:47 AMQuote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 11:20:49 AMThere's a lot of factors out there (like social media and availability of porn), but in our parents generation (mine are firmly Baby Boomers - your parents are older I guess) a man with a high school education (or not even that) could go out and get a well-paying job right away with nothing more than being a physical labourer. Women, what with the general attitude of discrimination against women plus the relative unimportance of unskilled indoor work, generally could not.
It is kind of odd though because today labor, especially anything having to do with construction, seems much more expensive than it used to be. It seems like if you wanted to become a contractor or a plumber or those kinds of careers you could do pretty well right out of High School...at least by the standards of somebody that age.
Contractor or plumber takes some level of skill and training.
True but it is apprenticeship type deals right? Something you can do right out of High School right?
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 12:01:17 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 11:54:35 AMI still say that we overthink this.
We've, collectively, spent the last 60 years teaching our daughters to not accept behaviours that are still prevalent in young men. We can't start wondering why these women now are not interested in these young men.
Interesting. What sort of behaviors are you talking about?
And that 60% of men are behaviourly subpar?
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 12:03:11 PMTrue but it is apprenticeship type deals right? Something you can do right out of High School right?
Depends on the work and the location. In ontario alot of the apprenticeships require being in the union first. To do that some unions require course work first (if not in writing then in practice). One of the reasons the construction industry is way undermanned in regards to young workers. But still easier then getting a low paying office job after 4 years of university.
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 12:01:17 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 11:54:35 AMI still say that we overthink this.
We've, collectively, spent the last 60 years teaching our daughters to not accept behaviours that are still prevalent in young men. We can't start wondering why these women now are not interested in these young men.
Interesting. What sort of behaviors are you talking about?
Lack of emotional intelligence and immaturity generally leads to an over reliance on physical intimidation. My casual use of twitch and Instagram show young men haven't change and still expect young women to conform to them and their needs.
Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 12:05:37 PMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 12:01:17 PMQuote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 11:54:35 AMI still say that we overthink this.
We've, collectively, spent the last 60 years teaching our daughters to not accept behaviours that are still prevalent in young men. We can't start wondering why these women now are not interested in these young men.
Interesting. What sort of behaviors are you talking about?
And that 60% of men are behaviourly subpar?
Young men? Of course. We're borderline humans before 25.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 01:07:21 PMLack of emotional intelligence and immaturity generally leads to an over reliance on physical intimidation. My casual use of twitch and Instagram show young men haven't change and still expect young women to conform to them and their needs.
All young people have a lack of emotional intelligence and have immaturity generally. And certainly the perception is that young men are particularly deficient in this way, again my experience of being a young man is that everybody kind of treats you like you are a jackass. That is the baseline assumption you have to work against.
But nonetheless I am skeptical of reliance on physical intimidation. Sure back in the 1980s when I was a kid people took a more "boys will be boys" attitude where bullying and fights were just kind of tolerated. But these days it seems like adults have no tolerance at all for that kind of thing. I think there is just much more awareness about the damage of bullying...or maybe they are afraid of some bullied kid coming back to do a mass shooting or something. Granted that is my suburban white person in Texas experience. It may be different elsewhere. But at least in my world that kind of thing is not tolerated at all now, whereas in the past it was winked and nodded at.
But tell me about your twitch and Instagram experiences. I see my kids on the internet and I don't see much of that kind of intimidation.
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 01:07:56 PMYoung men? Of course. We're borderline humans before 25.
That is certainly how I was treated, sure :lol:
Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2023, 01:07:21 PMLack of emotional intelligence and immaturity generally leads to an over reliance on physical intimidation. My casual use of twitch and Instagram show young men haven't change and still expect young women to conform to them and their needs.
I think there's a lot to this - and I think there's a lot of dodgy "advice" for young men online. Andrew Tate's at the most extreme end but he's not unique. It's obviously a piss-take but whenever I read about the online world a lot of young men are in, I think of this UK internet meme:
(https://preview.redd.it/c3zjh7kcv0h91.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=2868c6d944659cfb176d5362d85588cf388ac877)
I also think there's other stuff going on with young men. I've mentioned before but I really think there's a problem with young men and body image/diet/exercise - again being weaponised by online bell-ends and the far right.
I would guess that at least some of the problem starts with the whole "you have to talk to women rather than just fantasize about the cashier at Burger King" thing as well...
Quote from: PDH on February 23, 2023, 01:35:14 PMI would guess that at least some of the problem starts with the whole "you have to talk to women rather than just fantasize about the cashier at Burger King" thing as well...
Don't bother women at work though.
Quote from: PDH on February 23, 2023, 01:35:14 PMI would guess that at least some of the problem starts with the whole "you have to talk to women rather than just fantasize about the cashier at Burger King" thing as well...
There's certainly a side of "why risk rejection by talking to a girl when hardcore porn is just a few clicks away..."
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 01:49:15 PMQuote from: PDH on February 23, 2023, 01:35:14 PMI would guess that at least some of the problem starts with the whole "you have to talk to women rather than just fantasize about the cashier at Burger King" thing as well...
There's certainly a side of "why risk rejection by talking to a girl when hardcore porn is just a few clicks away..."
I mean I had plenty of what passed for online porn back in the day (and before that I just had to do with catalogues and magazines and cable TV like any other 90s kid) and I don't recall ever thinking that that was a satisfying substitute to having actual relationships. I am also skeptical the hardcore nature of it makes any difference.
Also: it isn't like women don't consume porn and stuff that isn't technically porn but serves the same purpose. Yet they seem to be doing better.
So I don't know if removing access to internet porn somehow would turn this situation around.
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 02:45:38 PMQuote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 01:49:15 PMQuote from: PDH on February 23, 2023, 01:35:14 PMI would guess that at least some of the problem starts with the whole "you have to talk to women rather than just fantasize about the cashier at Burger King" thing as well...
There's certainly a side of "why risk rejection by talking to a girl when hardcore porn is just a few clicks away..."
I mean I had plenty of what passed for online porn back in the day (and before that I just had to do with catalogues and magazines and cable TV like any other 90s kid) and I don't recall ever thinking that that was a satisfying substitute to having actual relationships. I am also skeptical the hardcore nature of it makes any difference.
Also: it isn't like women don't consume porn and stuff that isn't technically porn but serves the same purpose. Yet they seem to be doing better.
So I don't know if removing access to internet porn somehow would turn this situation around.
I certainly don't think it's the whole story, but there's an element to it.
I mean when I "came of age" you had to go into grimy sex shops. Later, probably when you were aroundthe same age, you could certainly find nude pics on the internet, but not the high-def videos you can get now.
That's what always pissed me off. There's still a social expectation for men to be the ones to do the work despite women being the ones with the higher standards.
Women do the approaching then there's a lot less hurt in the world.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 02:48:40 PMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 02:45:38 PMQuote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 01:49:15 PMQuote from: PDH on February 23, 2023, 01:35:14 PMI would guess that at least some of the problem starts with the whole "you have to talk to women rather than just fantasize about the cashier at Burger King" thing as well...
There's certainly a side of "why risk rejection by talking to a girl when hardcore porn is just a few clicks away..."
I mean I had plenty of what passed for online porn back in the day (and before that I just had to do with catalogues and magazines and cable TV like any other 90s kid) and I don't recall ever thinking that that was a satisfying substitute to having actual relationships. I am also skeptical the hardcore nature of it makes any difference.
Also: it isn't like women don't consume porn and stuff that isn't technically porn but serves the same purpose. Yet they seem to be doing better.
So I don't know if removing access to internet porn somehow would turn this situation around.
I certainly don't think it's the whole story, but there's an element to it.
I mean when I "came of age" you had to go into grimy sex shops. Later, probably when you were around the same age, you could certainly find nude pics on the internet, but not the high-def videos you can get now.
I guess the assumption you are giving is that somehow high-def videos provide something emotionally and physically satisfying that cheesecake late night cable films and Victoria Secret catalogues could not. I don't know.
The main difference between now and then is not that. It is the fact you can go to...um...Only Fans I guess (I have to admit I am a little out of the loop now) and send messages and chat to the performers and they will answer back. That has a little "fall in love with the stripper" vibe that I guess can create the illusion that a beautiful woman cares about you. That is something that is really different.
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 03:09:38 PMI guess the assumption you are giving is that somehow high-def videos provide something emotionally and physically satisfying that cheesecake late night cable films and Victoria Secret catalogues could not. I don't know.
The main difference between now and then is not that. It is the fact you can go to...um...Only Fans I guess (I have to admit I am a little out of the loop now) and send messages and chat to the performers and they will answer back. That has a little "fall in love with the stripper" vibe that I guess can create the illusion that a beautiful woman cares about you. That is something that is really different.
Emotionally satisfying? Obviously not.
Physically satisfying? As in easier to masturbate to? Yup, that's my hypothesis.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 03:17:13 PMEmotionally satisfying? Obviously not.
Physically satisfying? As in easier to masturbate to? Yup, that's my hypothesis.
Difficulty masturbating was never a problem I encountered :lol: I don't know if it is more satisfying just because the quality of the porn is higher.
But hey it might play a role. I wouldn't know. By the time Hi Def porn became easily available I was already married.
Quote from: Josquius on February 23, 2023, 03:00:05 PMThat's what always pissed me off. There's still a social expectation for men to be the ones to do the work despite women being the ones with the higher standards.
Women do the approaching then there's a lot less hurt in the world.
This is a huge reason why I found online dating really nice. The women will let you know if they like what they see in a way that is not as up to interpretation as when you are out there in the wild. My wife, for example, approached me first. I would be willing to bet the odds of success are astronomically higher when the woman is interested first.
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 03:24:56 PMQuote from: Josquius on February 23, 2023, 03:00:05 PMThat's what always pissed me off. There's still a social expectation for men to be the ones to do the work despite women being the ones with the higher standards.
Women do the approaching then there's a lot less hurt in the world.
This is a huge reason why I found online dating really nice. The women will let you know if they like what they see in a way that is not as up to interpretation as when you are out there in the wild. My wife, for example, approached me first. I would be willing to bet the odds of success are astronomically higher when the woman is interested first.
Yeah, online dating was the bomb. I mean you might still get rejected, but at least you know the woman is looking for a partner and isn't going to get offended by you sending her a message.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 03:27:38 PMYeah, online dating was the bomb. I mean you might still get rejected, but at least you know the woman is looking for a partner and isn't going to get offended by you sending her a message.
Yeah so with access to this amazing tool that lets you get in touch with people who are open to meeting somebody new, it is kind of weird that the younger generation is having so many problems.
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 03:27:38 PMYeah, online dating was the bomb. I mean you might still get rejected, but at least you know the woman is looking for a partner and isn't going to get offended by you sending her a message.
It is insane how quickly that's gone from a gag, to normal, to the norm. Thinking of my friend's I think only two maybe three didn't meet their partner through an app.
There is also Bumble which I believe works by the woman messaging first.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 23, 2023, 03:34:52 PMIt is insane how quickly that's gone from a gag, to normal, to the norm. Thinking of my friend's I think only two maybe three didn't meet their partner through an app.
There is also Bumble which I believe works by the woman messaging first.
If I make the assumption that many of your friends are gay that might explain why...
Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2023, 03:43:13 PMIf I make the assumption that many of your friends are gay that might explain why...
Not really - I was thinking of friends from university which are fairly mixed. Couple of gays but almost all the straight couple too - the ones who aren't either got together or knew each other at university or before Tinder, or have the classic friend introduction.
In stereotype busting one of my gay friends did meet his husband on an app but they were also the first to settle down and the first to get married.
Anecdotally, whenever I ask younger established couples I meet how they met the majority of answers are some variation of "online."
Quote from: Josquius on February 23, 2023, 03:00:05 PMThat's what always pissed me off. There's still a social expectation for men to be the ones to do the work despite women being the ones with the higher standards.
Women do the approaching then there's a lot less hurt in the world.
But one of the things that women are selecting for is demonstration of a minimal level of social skills and some degree of emotional resilience. So the ability to approach a person and risk rejection is a basic selection mechanism and one that is hard to perfectly replicate online.
From the man's perspective, I think it helps to consider the positives. The worst that happens is a rude rejection; but that's really a plus in the sense that it quickly identifies a person that isn't worth your time.
Yeah agreed.
I mean, I don't like rejection either, but the ability to handle it - or the risk of it - is a pretty important trait in a partner. Come to think of it, that actually begins justify a bit of the whole "playing games" thing as well. If a prospective mate freaks the fuck out when faced with a bit of mixed signals (which could easily be down to lack of decisivensess, shyness, or other perfectly acceptable reasons) then they're probably not going to be a good partner.
At the same time, being emotionally and socially aware enough that you can approach someone and gauge their interest without setting yourself up for humiliation (however you define it) is also a worthwhile quality.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on February 23, 2023, 03:47:57 PMBut one of the things that women are selecting for is demonstration of a minimal level of social skills and some degree of emotional resilience. So the ability to approach a person and risk rejection is a basic selection mechanism and one that is hard to perfectly replicate online.
From the man's perspective, I think it helps to consider the positives. The worst that happens is a rude rejection; but that's really a plus in the sense that it quickly identifies a person that isn't worth your time.
Now don't get me wrong, I never ceased approaching people in appropriate social conditions if they presented themselves. And the rejection itself never bothered me that much.
However, it sure seemed like I wasn't just being rejected. I felt like I was distressing or upsetting these women somehow. That was something I had a hard time with. That was certainly not something I ever wanted, even if they had no interest I would hope that they would at least be flattered or whatever.
The hostility I would sometimes get for just smiling and saying hi was hard to deal with. And then once social media started to be a thing I would see the women complaining about men approaching them and how horrible and scary they found it.
So after that I was like "ok women clearly do not want me to approach them." So from that point on I was very careful to ensure that the social circumstances were ideal and I had people around who could vouch for me and all that. Parties and things where I had some distant social connection to the person.
So sure social anxiety around approaching people I don't know was a thing and sure being vulnerable and possibly being rejected was a thing. But the main problem was is I am just not up for upsetting or frightening or making people uncomfortable. That is too much. You can humiliate me all you want, I don't care, but damn I don't want to walk away feeling like I ruined your day. Maybe I was just too sensitive to pick up randos, I don't know.
Also there is the problem that I don't know anything about this person. Chances are she is not even looking for anybody, I generally had better luck if I at least had a social connection no matter how distant so I at least sort of knew her general situation. Or online when she will just tell you.
Yeah, that was the thing for me too. If it was just me being rejected and failing then that would be that. But instead they was the risk of upsetting them, and then thinking selfishly again being branded as a horrid person.
I always had a habit of it ending up with girls I wasn't too into as there was less of a big deal in making an enemy of someone I don't care about than someone who seemed really nice.
It would be funny if after all this philosophising it would turn out the reason is simply that it's a small number of young guys having what the young women perceive as a relationship with multiple of them, to produce these skewed numbers.
But I would guess is more due to how the man being older than the woman is by default a plus in most women's eyes. I think what society attributes as manly qualities are easier to spot (or rather imagine into) an older guy.
I'm still hoping for surprise lesbian takeover.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 23, 2023, 05:18:11 PMI'm still hoping for surprise lesbian takeover.
a common fantasy. It appears you're straighter then you think :P
maybe a part of the discussion should be the period in the young men's lives before they arrive at this point.
What's the influence of education, and how that education is done?
What's the influence of society generally not being able/willing to accept much of the play (amongst boys more often than not) that would in past times have allowed these kids to socialize properly while letting out the energy.
on the other side attitudes and behavious amongst young women could probably be identified that are also not quite healthy and conductive towards the formation of relationships.
I'd say to go get that funding if people weren't already trying to figure out what's going on.
Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 05:22:02 PMQuote from: Sheilbh on February 23, 2023, 05:18:11 PMI'm still hoping for surprise lesbian takeover.
a common fantasy. It appears you're straighter then you think :P
He just wants to find a cheap joiner.
Quote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:11:53 AMI'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
I was shocked to recently read this. Certainly not what I expected.
https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1076546.html
QuoteKoreans are most likely to marry across income levels, study of major economies finds
Posted on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST Modified on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST
Marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries
South Korea has the lowest number of so-called "equal income marriages" in which a man and woman with comparable income levels are married, according to a recently published study on major economies. These findings are somewhat different from the socially accepted idea that men and women belonging to similar socio-economic classes, such as professionals or those working at major corporations, will marry people in similar circles.
According to a new report published on Thursday by the Bank of Korea titled "The Effects of Earnings Homogamy and Household Structure on Household Income Inequality: Cross-country Comparisons," the tendency for men and women with similar incomes to marry in Korea was lower than in other major countries.
When comparing an index of similar income marriages (calculated by dividing the earned income of married couples into 10 quintiles), South Korea's index figure stood at 1.16 times, the lowest among 34 major economies (33 OECD countries and Taiwan).
Japan's figures were 1.32 times, the US 1.50 times, the UK 1.71 times, and France 1.19 times. In fact, the average index of same-income marriages in the 33 countries analyzed, excluding South Korea, came out to 1.60.
The closer the index figure is to 1, the more often men and women marry across income levels to form a household. As such, the higher the number of men and women with similar incomes getting married to each other in a country, the greater the figure.
Thursday's report is based on empirical analysis of household survey data collected from 2005 through 2019.
While the report did note that there are indeed marriages in Korea between men and women of similar income levels, marriages among those with different incomes, such as a high-income man and unemployed or low-income woman or low-income man and a woman with a median or high income level, were observed relatively more often in South Korea compared to the other countries studied.
The conventional wisdom in South Korea is that those belonging to higher income groups, such as professionals, civil servants, or those working at large companies, tend to find marriage partners with similar levels of income. However, this report shows that there are other aspects of marriage that have yet to be more widely understood.
According to the report, in other major countries, men with higher incomes were less likely to marry lower-income women, but in South Korea, this phenomenon occurred slightly more frequently. Moreover, marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women also occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries.
The report also explained how such marriage tendencies in South Korea are influencing the alleviation of income inequality.
"High-income and low-income individuals are meeting to form middle-income households," the report stated, adding that "as a result, income inequality is easing at the household level compared to income inequality at the individual level."
According to the research, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea, which is relatively lower compared to other major countries, is also having a positive impact when it comes to alleviating inequality in the country.
As of 2019, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea was 14.7% and 4.0%, respectively, which is lower than the average of the other major countries (22.6% and 7.4%, respectively).
Nevertheless, the report did raise the possibility that the trend of marriages among individuals with similar income levels and household structures could change in a way that could unfavorably impact income inequality in the future.
"Efforts are needed to reduce labor market inequality as well as active government redistribution policies to alleviate household income inequality," the report emphasized.
By Cho Kye-wan, senior staff writer
Quote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:11:53 AMI'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
I wonder how closely this tracks to the last time we had this kind of wealth inequality and financial insecurity for the young. I'm thinking about the work that Picketty does to compare our current economic circumstances to the Victorian age.
It may be that young women are not becoming choosier, but because they now have careers just like men do, they also are economically compelled to wait longer before they choose a companion of significance.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 24, 2023, 04:56:55 AMQuote from: Jacob on February 23, 2023, 11:11:53 AMI'm seeing conversations about this in some of the European media I follow as well, and I think it matches some of what I'm seeing discussed in China and Japan as well.
And yet... if 60 percent of young men being unattached indicates all those things, I think it'd be worthwhile to compare that rate to rates in the past. When was it different, and how different was it?
I was shocked to recently read this. Certainly not what I expected.
https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1076546.html
QuoteKoreans are most likely to marry across income levels, study of major economies finds
Posted on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST Modified on : Jan.20,2023 15:02 KST
Marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries
South Korea has the lowest number of so-called "equal income marriages" in which a man and woman with comparable income levels are married, according to a recently published study on major economies. These findings are somewhat different from the socially accepted idea that men and women belonging to similar socio-economic classes, such as professionals or those working at major corporations, will marry people in similar circles.
According to a new report published on Thursday by the Bank of Korea titled "The Effects of Earnings Homogamy and Household Structure on Household Income Inequality: Cross-country Comparisons," the tendency for men and women with similar incomes to marry in Korea was lower than in other major countries.
When comparing an index of similar income marriages (calculated by dividing the earned income of married couples into 10 quintiles), South Korea's index figure stood at 1.16 times, the lowest among 34 major economies (33 OECD countries and Taiwan).
Japan's figures were 1.32 times, the US 1.50 times, the UK 1.71 times, and France 1.19 times. In fact, the average index of same-income marriages in the 33 countries analyzed, excluding South Korea, came out to 1.60.
The closer the index figure is to 1, the more often men and women marry across income levels to form a household. As such, the higher the number of men and women with similar incomes getting married to each other in a country, the greater the figure.
Thursday's report is based on empirical analysis of household survey data collected from 2005 through 2019.
While the report did note that there are indeed marriages in Korea between men and women of similar income levels, marriages among those with different incomes, such as a high-income man and unemployed or low-income woman or low-income man and a woman with a median or high income level, were observed relatively more often in South Korea compared to the other countries studied.
The conventional wisdom in South Korea is that those belonging to higher income groups, such as professionals, civil servants, or those working at large companies, tend to find marriage partners with similar levels of income. However, this report shows that there are other aspects of marriage that have yet to be more widely understood.
According to the report, in other major countries, men with higher incomes were less likely to marry lower-income women, but in South Korea, this phenomenon occurred slightly more frequently. Moreover, marriages between lower-income men and middle-income women also occur more frequently in South Korea than in other major countries.
The report also explained how such marriage tendencies in South Korea are influencing the alleviation of income inequality.
"High-income and low-income individuals are meeting to form middle-income households," the report stated, adding that "as a result, income inequality is easing at the household level compared to income inequality at the individual level."
According to the research, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea, which is relatively lower compared to other major countries, is also having a positive impact when it comes to alleviating inequality in the country.
As of 2019, the proportion of single-person households and single-parent households in South Korea was 14.7% and 4.0%, respectively, which is lower than the average of the other major countries (22.6% and 7.4%, respectively).
Nevertheless, the report did raise the possibility that the trend of marriages among individuals with similar income levels and household structures could change in a way that could unfavorably impact income inequality in the future.
"Efforts are needed to reduce labor market inequality as well as active government redistribution policies to alleviate household income inequality," the report emphasized.
By Cho Kye-wan, senior staff writer
It is consistent with what I see happening with the younger lawyers I know. People find life partners because they are attracted to them not because of what they earn.
That women are now earning significant incomes, means that they no longer have to put up with a wealthy man who otherwise is unattractive.
Of course, this is not very popular with the males who have trouble attracting females. It is far more comforting for those males to think that it is because they don't earn enough.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 07:00:58 AMI wonder how closely this tracks to the last time we had this kind of wealth inequality and financial insecurity for the young. I'm thinking about the work that Picketty does to compare our current economic circumstances to the Victorian age.
It may be that young women are not becoming choosier, but because they now have careers just like men do, they also are economically compelled to wait longer before they choose a companion of significance.
In terms of pushing it back/waiting I'd add that in the UK - I imagine Canada too - and other countries with housing issues that it's also a big issue. We know that affordability of housing has an impact on household formation.
And I think it can cut both ways - the only way to afford a property for most is in a relationship, but the inability to afford especially a family home, is a huge problem in people deciding whether to have a family or not and requires people to save for longer.
Echos of what I've been thinking for a while. Japan isn't weird on this. Its just ahead of the times.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2023, 07:13:29 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 07:00:58 AMI wonder how closely this tracks to the last time we had this kind of wealth inequality and financial insecurity for the young. I'm thinking about the work that Picketty does to compare our current economic circumstances to the Victorian age.
It may be that young women are not becoming choosier, but because they now have careers just like men do, they also are economically compelled to wait longer before they choose a companion of significance.
In terms of pushing it back/waiting I'd add that in the UK - I imagine Canada too - and other countries with housing issues that it's also a big issue. We know that affordability of housing has an impact on household formation.
And I think it can cut both ways - the only way to afford a property for most is in a relationship, but the inability to afford especially a family home, is a huge problem in people deciding whether to have a family or not and requires people to save for longer.
:yes:
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2023, 07:13:29 AMIn terms of pushing it back/waiting I'd add that in the UK - I imagine Canada too - and other countries with housing issues that it's also a big issue. We know that affordability of housing has an impact on household formation.
In China, the theory that young people are holding back on marriage and parenthood because they simple can't afford the cost of appropriate housing is widely accepted.
While that explains lack of marriage would it explain the disparity of dating percentage?
Quote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 06:45:35 AMThere were some studies a little while back that dating apps are largely skewed to a low percentage of men. 20% of men get 80% of the action (I maybe misremembering the percentages and confusing it with the 80/20 rule :D , but it's around there )
That and maybe the younger women are in relationships with slightly older men. But yes online dating has an extreme winner-takes-all effect among men. Those 80/20 ratios resemble Bronze Age Yamnaya Indo-European pastoralists killing off the the Neolithic agriculturalist male lines 5000 years ago. :hmm: :nerd:
Quote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 11:11:12 AMWhile that explains lack of marriage would it explain the disparity of dating percentage?
That's a good question.
Quote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 11:11:12 AMWhile that explains lack of marriage would it explain the disparity of dating percentage?
A whole generation of young men sitting in a room playing video games and lacking the ability to speak to others (especially women) or engage in social interactions? The minority who did not go this way are rather sought after for dates.
Quote from: Legbiter on February 24, 2023, 11:17:24 AMQuote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 06:45:35 AMThere were some studies a little while back that dating apps are largely skewed to a low percentage of men. 20% of men get 80% of the action (I maybe misremembering the percentages and confusing it with the 80/20 rule :D , but it's around there )
That and maybe the younger women are in relationships with slightly older men. But yes online dating has an extreme winner-takes-all effect among men. Those 80/20 ratios resemble Bronze Age Yamnaya Indo-European pastoralists killing off the the Neolithic agriculturalist male lines 5000 years ago. :hmm: :nerd:
My bet is that the percentage of women dating younger men has increased as women have begun to earn on par with men.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:08:57 PMQuote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 11:11:12 AMWhile that explains lack of marriage would it explain the disparity of dating percentage?
A whole generation of young men sitting in a room playing video games and lacking the ability to speak to others (especially women) or engage in social interactions? The minority who did not go this way are rather sought after for dates.
Now we are blaming video games?
So 60 percent of young men are pathetic video playing shut ins? Even if you just take the difference that's 30 percent. You think 1/3 of young men fit this criteria? Are the 30 percent of single women losers too?
*Edit* stupid phone
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2023, 12:16:17 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:08:57 PMQuote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 11:11:12 AMWhile that explains lack of marriage would it explain the disparity of dating percentage?
A whole generation of young men sitting in a room playing video games and lacking the ability to speak to others (especially women) or engage in social interactions? The minority who did not go this way are rather sought after for dates.
Now we are blaming video games?
No, video games don't force young men to spend their lives playing them. Young men do that to themselves.
Quote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:19:56 PMSo 60 percent of young men are pathetic video playing shut in? Iveb if you just take the difference that's 30 percent. You think 1/3 of young men fit this criteria? Or thr 30 percent of single women losers too?
When I was a young man I would say that there were easily 30% of my peer group who had difficult speaking to young women. Add in the factor of a lot of young men spending a lot of time they would otherwise have spent socializing, playing video games instead, and yeah - its probably more than 30% that have trouble being social.
I recognize this will be an unpopular opinion in a group who has only video games in common. But do you think playing video games for hours a week increases the chances of a young man to get a date or lesson that chance?
Going back to the studies I mentioned; social apps make striking off partners easier then in the past. The overwhelming majority of women want to date someone over 6 feet tall. That's 14.5 percent of the male population. Over 80 percent are eliminated right off the bat, that's even before their video game playing becomes a factor :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:22:44 PMQuote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:19:56 PMSo 60 percent of young men are pathetic video playing shut in? Iveb if you just take the difference that's 30 percent. You think 1/3 of young men fit this criteria? Or thr 30 percent of single women losers too?
When I was a young man I would say that there were easily 30% of my peer group who had difficult speaking to young women. Add in the factor of a lot of young men spending a lot of time they would otherwise have spent socializing, playing video games instead, and yeah - its probably more than 30% that have trouble being social.
I recognize this will be an unpopular opinion in a group who has only video games in common. But do you think playing video games for hours a week increases the chances of a young man to get a date or lesson that chance?
Would you replace video games with another hobby? Like say basketball practice for hours a week :P . It's not like men who would be playing games automatically transfer that time to a social activity with women present. Covid and money probably plays a much greater part in the lack of opportunity to engage with women socially.
Quote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:26:29 PMGoing back to the studies I mentioned; social apps make striking off partners easier then in the past. The overwhelming majority of women want to date someone over 6 feet tall. That's 14.5 percent of the male population. Over 80 percent are eliminated right off the bat, that's even before their video game playing becomes a factor :P
Men are probably just as bad though, at least in terms of wanting to date someone who is conventionally attractive.
I remember one guy from my fraternity days who seriously married up - his now wife is a wonderful woman, but my fraternity brother scooped her up because most guys wouldn't date a girl with such a large birthmark on her face.
Quote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:29:28 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:22:44 PMQuote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:19:56 PMSo 60 percent of young men are pathetic video playing shut in? Iveb if you just take the difference that's 30 percent. You think 1/3 of young men fit this criteria? Or thr 30 percent of single women losers too?
When I was a young man I would say that there were easily 30% of my peer group who had difficult speaking to young women. Add in the factor of a lot of young men spending a lot of time they would otherwise have spent socializing, playing video games instead, and yeah - its probably more than 30% that have trouble being social.
I recognize this will be an unpopular opinion in a group who has only video games in common. But do you think playing video games for hours a week increases the chances of a young man to get a date or lesson that chance?
Would you replace video games with another hobby? Like say basketball practice for hours a week :P . It's not like men who would be playing games automatically transfer that time to a social activity with women present. Covid and money probably plays a much greater part in the lack of opportunity to engage with women socially.
Well, spending hours a week doing sports tends to put one into social situations which increases the chances of meeting women. Also, engaging in physical activity also has other positive side effects that tend to be considered attractive. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 01:48:15 PMWell, spending hours a week doing sports tends to put one into social situations which increases the chances of meeting women. Also, engaging in physical activity also has other positive side effects that tend to be considered attractive. :P
Also to go back to that meme - depending on the sport/team involved - it can be a healthy way of mentoring I suppose. Obviously if it's a school team less likely to be a thing - but if you join a local community cricket/rugby/football club there'll be players who are older. They might have advice on, say, speaking to girls etc.
While if you look at a video game YouTube channel and just leave it on auto-play I give it probably under 10 videos before you're getting some pretty dark, misogynist material.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2023, 01:53:05 PMAlso to go back to that meme - depending on the sport/team involved - it can be a healthy way of mentoring I suppose. Obviously if it's a school team less likely to be a thing - but if you join a local community cricket/rugby/football club there'll be players who are older. They might have advice on, say, speaking to girls etc.
Or there might also be a women's team within the same club. :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 01:48:15 PMQuote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:29:28 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:22:44 PMQuote from: HVC on February 24, 2023, 12:19:56 PMSo 60 percent of young men are pathetic video playing shut in? Iveb if you just take the difference that's 30 percent. You think 1/3 of young men fit this criteria? Or thr 30 percent of single women losers too?
When I was a young man I would say that there were easily 30% of my peer group who had difficult speaking to young women. Add in the factor of a lot of young men spending a lot of time they would otherwise have spent socializing, playing video games instead, and yeah - its probably more than 30% that have trouble being social.
I recognize this will be an unpopular opinion in a group who has only video games in common. But do you think playing video games for hours a week increases the chances of a young man to get a date or lesson that chance?
Would you replace video games with another hobby? Like say basketball practice for hours a week :P . It's not like men who would be playing games automatically transfer that time to a social activity with women present. Covid and money probably plays a much greater part in the lack of opportunity to engage with women socially.
Well, spending hours a week doing sports tends to put one into social situations which increases the chances of meeting women. Also, engaging in physical activity also has other positive side effects that tend to be considered attractive. :P
You can be attractive and play video games... I've been told :D
It must also be said as well that nowadays gaming is a much more social experience than in the past, what with online gaming, twitch streaming and the like, so the stereotype of the shut in teenager playing games and having no social skills whatsoever is a bit of a throwback. That gaming communities are many times cesspools of toxic masculinity is a different issue.
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:22:44 PMWhen I was a young man I would say that there were easily 30% of my peer group who had difficult speaking to young women. Add in the factor of a lot of young men spending a lot of time they would otherwise have spent socializing, playing video games instead, and yeah - its probably more than 30% that have trouble being social.
I recognize this will be an unpopular opinion in a group who has only video games in common. But do you think playing video games for hours a week increases the chances of a young man to get a date or lesson that chance?
It might increase the chances of them getting with young women who play videogames all the time too? Shared interests and all that.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2023, 01:53:05 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 01:48:15 PMWell, spending hours a week doing sports tends to put one into social situations which increases the chances of meeting women. Also, engaging in physical activity also has other positive side effects that tend to be considered attractive. :P
Also to go back to that meme - depending on the sport/team involved - it can be a healthy way of mentoring I suppose. Obviously if it's a school team less likely to be a thing - but if you join a local community cricket/rugby/football club there'll be players who are older. They might have advice on, say, speaking to girls etc.
While if you look at a video game YouTube channel and just leave it on auto-play I give it probably under 10 videos before you're getting some pretty dark, misogynist material.
Sure, but the most important aspect is the social aspect, every player on a team has their own circle of friends, which includes female friends. There is a lot of overlap of course, but it is a good way to meet new people.
Quote from: Jacob on February 24, 2023, 03:02:53 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on February 24, 2023, 12:22:44 PMWhen I was a young man I would say that there were easily 30% of my peer group who had difficult speaking to young women. Add in the factor of a lot of young men spending a lot of time they would otherwise have spent socializing, playing video games instead, and yeah - its probably more than 30% that have trouble being social.
I recognize this will be an unpopular opinion in a group who has only video games in common. But do you think playing video games for hours a week increases the chances of a young man to get a date or lesson that chance?
It might increase the chances of them getting with young women who play videogames all the time too? Shared interests and all that.
Maybe, but when would they actually meet. This is probably one of those exceptions prove the rule situations.
Quote from: The Larch on February 24, 2023, 02:34:34 PMIt must also be said as well that nowadays gaming is a much more social experience than in the past, what with online gaming, twitch streaming and the like, so the stereotype of the shut in teenager playing games and having no social skills whatsoever is a bit of a throwback. That gaming communities are many times cesspools of toxic masculinity is a different issue.
But everyone is just sitting in front of a screen. When do they actually get out and about to meeting eachother and form personal relationships in person. And when they do, how do their on screen personalities translate to real world social situations?
Quote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 11:08:15 AMQuote from: Razgovory on February 23, 2023, 11:02:58 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:54:41 AMQuote from: HVC on February 23, 2023, 10:52:46 AMQuote from: Valmy on February 23, 2023, 10:49:58 AMThere was a time when heterosexual women wanted to form a long-term relationship with a man with less education and earnings than herself? Certainly not a time I was dating. That was, generally, the thing you were filtered for.
There was a time when they didn't have many options to marry someone earning less then themselves unless they married an unemployed man :lol:
Right. I think it is more about their rising status than having higher standards.
Damn. I hate it when women have high standards. :(
Do you pursue relationships with women very often?
Not really. I'm singularly disgusting. I'm also annoying. And loud. I once had a deaf person tell me to shut up. True story.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 24, 2023, 03:21:56 PMNot really. I'm singularly disgusting. I'm also annoying. And loud. I once had a deaf person tell me to shut up. True story.
Yeah but you are very smart and interesting to talk to. There might be a niche out there for you if you wanted.
Quote from: Valmy on February 24, 2023, 03:25:51 PMQuote from: Razgovory on February 24, 2023, 03:21:56 PMNot really. I'm singularly disgusting. I'm also annoying. And loud. I once had a deaf person tell me to shut up. True story.
Yeah but you are very smart and interesting to talk to. There might be a niche out there for you if you wanted.
Raz, you're often quite funny as well.