From Marina Hyde following the convinction of Sarah Everard's murderer - with an image for the vigil of another woman who was kidnapped and then murdered on a five minute walk from station to pub:
QuoteAll women know they are prey – and that no one with any authority seems to care
Marina Hyde
Despite the horrifying levels of violence against women, there is no strategy to end it. Just promises to 'learn lessons'
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/ae423a061c95f636201e04c338f4d79d65dfda8e/0_140_4200_2521/master/4200.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=5041f25e3324d3bf9eab6bbe854b7814)
Vigil in Walthamstow for Sabina Nessa, 28 September 2021. Photograph: Jack Dredd/REX/Shutterstock
Fri 1 Oct 2021 14.51 BST
Cressida Dick must be the last woman in the country who thinks there may be "lessons" to be learned from Wayne Couzens's rape and murder of Sarah Everard. At least 80 women in the UK have been killed by men since Everard. Only 1.6% of rapes in England and Wales reported to police even result in a charge. Fifty-two per cent of police found guilty of sexual misconduct kept their jobs. Women already know all the lessons. Women live with the all-pervasive understanding that they are prey.
The women who love you have to communicate the fear to you when you're still a girl, knowing that one day you too will have to communicate it to the girls you love. They pass you down their strategies – their defences – like your birthright. And when you're big enough to be out in the world on your own, those same women spend their time hoping till it hurts that this fear, which they had to gift you out of love, will somehow save you. "In the evenings," said Sarah Everard's mother in her unforgettable victim impact statement, "at the time she was abducted, I let out a silent scream: 'Don't get in the car, Sarah. Don't believe him. Run!'"
Where do you even start? When will it ever stop? On the very same morning that Couzens was being sentenced in one Old Bailey courtroom, another Old Bailey courtroom was being used to charge the man accused of the murder of the primary school teacher Sabina Nessa, brutally killed two weeks ago on her way to meet a friend near her home in south-east London. The prosecution alleged it was a predatory and premeditated attack on a lone woman not known to him.
To all those who could be found pointing out that "we" have to remember these are extreme cases: thanks for dialling in. They are extreme, yes – but they are part of a continuum of male harassment and the fear of it that women experience every day of their lives. Women are constantly, constantly performing risk assessment. Dare I pass down this street at this time? Is this the routine sleazy comment that turns into something worse? Is he going to keep walking or will he turn around? To make a troubled peace with it, we have to euphemise this lifestyle as "being sensible" or "taking care", but it's really just a statistically justified fear as part of daily life. Every woman has experienced various things along that continuum.
But wait! Because excitingly, it turns out there are now even more things for ladies to add to their list of Shit I'm Advised to Do to Stay Safe Because It Saves Anyone Else Having to Do Anything. Today, the Met advised people approached by a lone plainclothes officer to ask very searching questions, such as "Where have you come from?" and "Exactly why are you stopping or talking to me?" Probably best not to try these while being black. If they fear for their safety, women are advised to run into a house or "wave down a bus".
To which, I am afraid, the only acceptable reaction is: NO. No to this bollocks, no to thoughts-and-prayers, and no to accepting this standard of policing – though that's clearly what everyone from the prime minister to the leader of the opposition to the mayor of London does, if they're happy for Cressida Dick to have just been given another two years on her contract after this many huge mistakes. Who looks at that record and thinks: you know what, I think we need the same old broom?
But of course, we have a cross-party political culture where the women and equalities brief is still bundled with some other job as a kind of weird afterthought/poisoned chalice. In government, Liz Truss is foreign secretary – AND women and equalities minister. For Labour, Anneliese Dodds is both chair of a party trying to reverse its calamitous electoral fortunes AND shadow women and equalities minister. What are these bizarre ministerial biathlons other than confirmation that the women and equalities position is something you tack on to a real job just so you can say that some overworked woman is "dealing with all that stuff".
The message from women this week is loud and clear: no more learning. Our consciousness about male violence and how far it reaches is well and truly raised, and so is that of a vast number of men. That thing about having to devote 10,000 hours to something to be an expert in it? You really don't have to be very old as a woman to have already spent way more than 10,000 hours thinking about your safety and, by extension, the safety of women in general.
So if anyone – ANYONE – in a position of authority would like to offer something more concrete than the equivalent of thoughts and prayers for how to tackle an epidemic of male violence and harassment, then let women reassure you: you don't need to roll the pitch any more. Take it from us.
Alas, authority figures have not had a great week on this stuff. Or, indeed, a great few decades. When the Yorkshire Ripper's killing pattern changed, a senior investigating officer made that infamous statement: "He has made it clear that he hates prostitutes. Many people do. We, as a police force, will continue to arrest prostitutes." (And to use them.) "But," he went on, "the Ripper is now killing innocent girls." That comment rightly became notorious. And yet, I was sorry to see that even the judge who yesterday handed down a whole-life tariff to Wayne Couzens spoke of Sarah Everard being "a wholly blameless victim", a way of putting it that implies that there are victims of rape and murder who have to shoulder some of the blame. Would police have made an arrest so quickly had Couzens's victim been one of the sex workers he is alleged to have been in the habit of using?
If only the unfortunate echoes ended there. Peter Sutcliffe was nicknamed the Ripper as "a joke" by some of his colleagues at a trucking firm; Wayne Couzens was nicknamed "the rapist" by some of his earlier colleagues in the police service, also "as a joke". I mean ... I want to think there's been some progress, but that particular detail suggests otherwise.
Certainly, there remains no major or even minor strategy to deal with this culture. We see Priti Patel down at Dover in a HOME SECRETARY coat, announcing action on asylum seekers arriving by boat. We hear Boris Johnson talking about a knife-crime strategy or a chain-gang strategy or an antisocial behaviour strategy. Could they please put their puffer jackets on to announce and follow through on a serious male violence strategy? Can we have a joined-up plan to tackle male violence that starts in primary education and takes an ambitiously holistic approach to a problem that riddles our society with poisons, from child abuse to terrorism?
If not, maybe all the people who fall back on the "one bad apple" defence can have the balls to stop omitting the second half of the saying. One bad apple spoils the barrel. And as any number of women can attest, this barrel is long past putrid.
Marina Hyde is a Guardian columnist
This article was amended on 1 October 2021. Liz Truss is the minister for women and equalities, not Kemi Badenoch (who is equalities minister) as an earlier version said.
After the Met advice about waving down a bus, we had a comment from Yorkshire Police that this could have been avoided if Sarah Everard - a normal everyday woman - had detailed knowledge of the covid regulations so she could challenge Couzens on his fake arrest.
But despite being reported for indecent exposure multiple times, being nicknamed the 'rapist' by female colleagues, being known by colleagues to enjoy extreme pornography nothing was done about Couzens - and in this investigation the police found out he was in a WhatsApp group with two other Met officers where they shared 'alleged misogynistic and racist content' those officers are still on duty.
I don't often agree with Nick Timothy, May's former chief of staff, but these ideas are, at least, a start - and it should start with Cressida Dick stepping down:
QuoteNick Timothy
@NJ_Timothy
It is not just Wayne Couzens, the Met has been in crisis for some time. The Daniel Morgan inquiry said it was "institutionally corrupt". London is plagued by knife crime. There's the Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman case, and many others. What the Home Office should do:
1. Transfer the Met's specialist operations commands - counter-terrorism, personal protection etc - to the National Crime Agency, making the Met London's police force rather than a hybrid local/national force.
2. As a purely local force, make the Met accountable entirely to the Mayor - as all other local forces are accountable to mayors and PCCs - and not the Home Secretary. Stop the Mayor evading his responsibilities.
3. Appoint not just a new Commissioner but an entirely new leadership team with a clean culture and a mission to reform the Met from top to bottom. If that means hiring from overseas, do it.
4. Restore direct entry - the scheme that opened up the inspector and superintendent ranks to talented outsiders - which, disgracefully, has been shut down by the College of Policing. Widen the gene pool.
5. Invite HM Inspectorate of Constabulary to conduct a root and branch investigation of the Met. Britain's biggest force is failing and has been labelled institutionally corrupt: independent investigators need to reveal exactly how and why this is happening.
6. Reform or abolish and replace the Police Federation, which does so much to poison the culture among rank and file officers.
7. Legislate to guarantee robust, highly local accountability for neighbourhood policing.
8. Reform the College of Policing - introduced with great hope but captured by vested interests - to improve evidence-gathering about what works and help officers through education, standards and training.
9. Improve the use of productivity-enhancing technology, streamline processes from arrest to prosecution, and train officers to use their powers legally and responsibly.
10. Tighten existing laws to clamp down on police corruption and the abuse of powers. Introduce procedures to prevent collusion between officers when things go wrong. Create schemes to encourage transparency and whistleblowing among officers.
11. Legislate to prevent police officers from being able to resign or retire before the conclusion of disciplinary proceedings against them.
12. Respect operational independence, devolved leadership and local accountability. But if a force is failing and/or corrupt, and its leaders and mayor fail to take responsibility, put it in special measures and impose change yourself. The buck stops with you.
On part of why that doesn't happen there is an upcoming book by a former Labour police minister on how difficult it is to reform the police because they are very good at politics and they absolutely will play it against anyone who tries to take them on.
Meanwhile, as I briefly mentioned in the OTR thread - a former policeman in France has been revealed to be a serial killer who targeted women:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/01/paris-serial-killer-of-80s-and-90s-was-ex-police-officer-dna-shows
Edit: Still just struggling with the idea that the Met's advice to women worried about a police officer is literally to run or flag down a bus and, of course, that if a woman called the police the officers responding might be Couzens' banter mates :blink: :ultra:
I think the specific problem here is obviously horrific, but probably not that useful as an example. I don't know much about the Met, but if there is a need for housecleaning there, then do so.
But I would not try to draw general conclusions about systemic changes based on such an outlier example, as tragic as it is. The solution to male violence against women goes much deeper then any particular problems about a police officer, or even a department.
There clearly needs to be some kind of systemic, ground up societal effort to address violence by men against women in all its forms. Not as a adjunct to other efforts, but as a singular, called out and specific educational effort that is applied consistently and starts early. The content should, of course, be structured and aimed at the age group it is being introduced to - but I don't even see that as very difficult. You can certainly start teaching young boys (and girls, but the problem here is NOT generally with girls, but specifically with males) early about how to interact with women in a healthy manner.
It should be as important a part of society and education as teaching kids how to read or do math or how to learn and think.
This seems like a radical idea, but I think we have a pretty radical problem.
At what level of risk does paranoia become "statistically justified"? :hmm: I mean, 78% of murder victims are men...
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 01, 2021, 05:43:50 PM
At what level of risk does paranoia become "statistically justified"? :hmm: I mean, 78% of murder victims are men...
Just because men are better at it does not mean that women can't pull even.
I don't quite know what to say in a thread entitled "Violence against women".
Violent crimes committed by men against women are just such a huge part of my career. It's so prevalent, so pervasive... And it's so fucking hard to prove because the female victims are so reluctant to testify, and even when they do these crimes tend to happen behind closed doors with no witnesses.
If anybody has an answer to it please let me know, because I've been looking all my career.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 01, 2021, 05:43:50 PM
At what level of risk does paranoia become "statistically justified"? :hmm: I mean, 78% of murder victims are men...
What do you think?
Violence against women is an issue. At the same time though, there will always be these edge cases that make a big splash, because women will always be vulnerable to bigger, stronger people.
Quote from: Jacob on October 02, 2021, 01:10:56 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 01, 2021, 05:43:50 PM
At what level of risk does paranoia become "statistically justified"? :hmm: I mean, 78% of murder victims are men...
What do you think?
I think Ms Hyde was taking advantage of a high profile murder case to engage in sensational fear-mongering.
I think we would need to break the statistics down a bit more. How many of the people being murdered were "civilians"; to what extent do women avoid places that may be dangerous etc etc
I don't think men just being bigger and stronger is it. Not in the moment at least. In this case for example there's no reason the same thing might not have happened with an olympian civilian and a weak cop. It was the uniform gave compliance.
Though on a deep level beyond the immediate incident then it becomes a lot fuzzier. Its certainly feasible that growing up knowing youre bigger and stronger than this other group of people can be a factor in building the psychology of many men. The reverse 100% is for women.
Overall its a weird one as its coming from two places. On the one hand there is the traditionalist men are king attitude. But more worryingly I do think this ties into the rise of far right reactionary nonsense with infamous incel culture and the like. Blaming others for things that go wrong in your life is key to the far right world view and women stand as a clear other.
Maybe this is the way it needs to be tackled? In the UK today toxic masculinity is a huge. This is seriously one of the major factors telling me I can't keep my son here beyond early childhood. I am skeptical two generations in a row can dodge it.
But then on the other hand Japan also has massive problems with stalkers, rape, etc... And it has a very different toxicity.
Callling incels part of the reactionary right is silly.
I support reforming the London police force.
I don't support turning this into some male collective guilt trip.
The Met is obviously an organization that needs to be razed and rebuilt.
Quote from: Berkut on October 01, 2021, 01:37:41 PM
I think the specific problem here is obviously horrific, but probably not that useful as an example. I don't know much about the Met, but if there is a need for housecleaning there, then do so.
But I would not try to draw general conclusions about systemic changes based on such an outlier example, as tragic as it is. The solution to male violence against women goes much deeper then any particular problems about a police officer, or even a department.
Yeah I think it was the confluence of events. That the same day a police officer in London was convicted for prowling for a lone woman who he then kidnappped, raped and murdered - across the building there was another man being charged with the murder of another woman who he murdered on her five minute walk from the station to the pub. Across the Channel French police confirmed that a former officer who committed suicide was serial killer in the 80s and 90s who, at least once, used the same ruse as Couzens of convincing women to comply by placing them under "arrest" using his police card and the extraordinary coercive power we grant the police.
Those are extreme cases - at least in the UK stranger murder is very rare and for women especially they are overwhelmingly at risk from partners, ex-partners and family. But on the other hand the rate of successful prosecutions of rape in this country is incredibly low and the rate of attempted prosecutions is also tiny compared to the amount complaints made to and recorded by the police. The latest official stats are that 98% of reported rape cases don't result in criminal charges
There are changes being trialled in UK police forces - most of which sound incredibly sensible and something that should have been done years ago. For example focusing on investigating if there's a pattern of behaviour from the accused rather than investigating the victim; trying to increase victim support (for example having a single point of contact) because my understanding is there's a huge amount of attrition when victims go through the system. But the goal for all of these policies is just to get the level of charges being brought and convictions back to where they were 5 years ago.
I don't know the situation in the US or France, from BB's comment it seems like it is a large part of the violence he has to deal with but - as here - doesn't often end up going to trial or conviction and I think women not wanting to testify is part of a structural social issue. I think there are structural/social issues within the criminal justice system as well as more widely.
QuoteAt what level of risk does paranoia become "statistically justified"? :hmm: I mean, 78% of murder victims are men...
Yeah I think the disparity varies around the world. Men are more at risk but the split is closer to 50/50-60/40 in most of Europe for example.
QuoteI think we would need to break the statistics down a bit more. How many of the people being murdered were "civilians"; to what extent do women avoid places that may be dangerous etc etc
Yeah as Hyde points out these extreme cases are part of a wider context of fear and awareness by women. I know that as a six foot-ish guy if I'm walking alone or with another man on a street and there's a lone woman ahead of us, I will normally cross the road to make clear I'm not a risk/following her. It's a tiny thing but I've been told by women it is a good thing to do and reduces anxiety on those lone walks.
Anecdotally women do definitely adjust their everyday behaviour for risks, but I think statistically (a bit like with stranger danger and children) the overwhelming threat is at home.
Edit: And I suppose I'm not convinced it's entirely separate from the fact that prominent women receive significantly more abuse and threats on social media. I've mentioned it before but one woman MP was murdered, there's been at least one conviction I can think of for a man sending death and rape threats and actually planning to murder another woman MP. I think there are issues within the Met that need addressing - but I think there are wider social problems too.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 12:56:36 PM
Callling incels part of the reactionary right is silly.
Why?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 12:56:36 PM
I don't support turning this into some male collective guilt trip.
IMO it's less about guilt than about who has the power to effect change.
Quote from: Maximus on October 02, 2021, 03:22:30 PM
Why?
Lack of evidence?
QuoteIMO it's less about guilt than about who has the power to effect change.
We each have one vote.
What's the definition of an incel anyway? Is it a man who can't get any sex with a woman, or are there other qualifications?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 06:26:24 PM
Lack of evidence?
Quote
Everything without evidence is silly?
Quote from: DGuller on October 02, 2021, 06:44:41 PM
What's the definition of an incel anyway? Is it a man who can't get any sex with a woman, or are there other qualifications?
A man who can't get laid and is angry at women and also at men who do get laid. Sometimes resort to violence. Use code words like "Chad" and...Betty? Can't remember the code word for women that won't bang them.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 06:52:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 02, 2021, 06:44:41 PM
What's the definition of an incel anyway? Is it a man who can't get any sex with a woman, or are there other qualifications?
A man who can't get laid and is angry at women and also at men who do get laid. Sometimes resort to violence. Use code words like "Chad" and...Betty? Can't remember the code word for women that won't bang them.
I see. If that's the definition, then I'm not sure either why men on the left can't be bitter about not getting laid.
Quote from: Maximus on October 02, 2021, 06:49:55 PM
Everything without evidence is silly?
An assertion without evidence is silly, yeah.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 06:52:42 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 02, 2021, 06:44:41 PM
What's the definition of an incel anyway? Is it a man who can't get any sex with a woman, or are there other qualifications?
A man who can't get laid and is angry at women and also at men who do get laid. Sometimes resort to violence. Use code words like "Chad" and...Betty? Can't remember the code word for women that won't bang them.
I think it's a radical and misogynist ideology - it's treated in that way by UK counter-terrorism bodies given that it has inspired mass shootings in the US and Canada. I believe US counter-terrorism strategy documents also consider it a "single-issue" ideology.
I think probably the key fixture of incel ideology is that they believe in biological determinism: women are solely interested in physically attractive men. So the incels are a type of "victim" of biology who are genetically pre-determined to not find a girlfriend and basically blame the liberation of women into being able to make decisions about their partners for this, because they are base and will just choose good-looking men.
Some who are radicalised turn to suicidal thoughts, others to violence against women and men who have accepted their place in this world (either because they're good looking so they're fine, or because they're weak cucks).
I think it probably trends more right - but that's possibly as much a function of the YouTube algorithm as any underlying politics. You start on some light video game content and you fall asleep for an hour and you're onto Jordan Peterson talking about biological determinism, you fall asleep for another hour or two and you'll probably be in some pretty borderline racist/white supremacist content.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 07:15:13 PM
An assertion without evidence is silly, yeah.
No. It's a provocation.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 06:26:24 PM
Lack of evidence?
What sort of evidence would be persuasive to you?
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 02, 2021, 07:16:05 PM
<snip>
Incels are sworn enemies of rich frat boys and jocks and sorority girls, and cool and pretty people in general. It's an ideology of have-nots. Much more natural to end up on the left than the right.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 07:33:20 PM
Incels are sworn enemies of rich frat boys and jocks and sorority girls, and cool and pretty people in general. It's an ideology of have-nots. Much more natural to end up on the left than the right.
Good God :blink:
This is a class take so broad it's like Gramsci never even went to prison :weep:
Edit: Das Animal Haus. Wildest view I think I've ever seen here.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 07:33:20 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 02, 2021, 07:16:05 PM
<snip>
Incels are sworn enemies of rich frat boys and jocks and sorority girls, and cool and pretty people in general. It's an ideology of have-nots. Much more natural to end up on the left than the right.
Interesting you're looking for evidence then, since the evidence suggests that incels kill "women" and rant about "women" and have yet killed many many many many many many less rich frat boys and jocks than, well, women...
The evidence suggests what I just said as well.
They hate everyone. They do tend to go right, but I'm not sure if it is required. Trump was champion of spite and hate so that might be a reason, that women tend to go Democratic may also be a reason. I only learned about that because of their political bullshit. They were the fuckwits who were harassing female developers back during gamergate.
I would say they tend to go far right rather than just right. They seem especially attracted to fascist and fascist-adjacent movements.
Well a biological determinist world view, plus a sense of victimhood. It's not a massive jump into fascist adjacent content.
Though I don't think they are necessarily political or uniform. It's the model of a modern, mixed or confused ideology - the only thing really tying it together is misogyny.
Misogyny is the key. Incels seem to believe women do not choose relationships for anything else than money or power, and they are singled out as socially awkward (again believed to be determined) that "mean women" take advantage of. They call men who know women without being in a relationship as "simps" who are degrading themselves by doing this.
Women are both evil manipulators AND mindless followers of weird biological imperatives to seek out powerful mates. It is a self-referential ongoing circle jerk of self-proclaimed victims who are attacked by a cruel world they refuse to take part in.
Don't forget the fedora and katana.
Incels are a problem, but they are not THE problem.
Quote from: The Brain on October 02, 2021, 09:13:12 PM
Don't forget the fedora and katana.
Neckbeards aren't the same thing as incels.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 02, 2021, 08:10:12 PM
The evidence suggests what I just said as well.
What evidence are you looking at?
In Austria, 21 women were killed so far this year which is a sad record. Except in one or two cases they were killed by their partner or ex-partner. Usually, extreme jealousy is the reason.
During the 24 hour Twitter event where Vienna police tweeted about all their actions through the day there were easily 15-20 responses to domestic violence against women. (And probably countless others were police wasn't called.) Superficially it seems women are much more likely to be subjected to violence from someone close to them (usually their partner) rather than by strangers.
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2021, 12:18:27 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 02, 2021, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 02, 2021, 09:13:12 PM
Don't forget the fedora and katana.
Neckbeards aren't the same thing as incels.
M'lady doth protest too much.
See there. Incels don't think of "foids" as ladies, nor do they attempt conversation.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 03, 2021, 12:25:36 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2021, 12:18:27 AM
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 02, 2021, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 02, 2021, 09:13:12 PM
Don't forget the fedora and katana.
Neckbeards aren't the same thing as incels.
M'lady doth protest too much.
See there. Incels don't think of "foids" as ladies, nor do they attempt conversation.
Ah, they are not true incels. Gotcha.
Quote from: Jacob on October 03, 2021, 12:04:48 AM
What evidence are you looking at?
On line comments by self professed incels, like that Canadian shooter a while back.
The shared worldview between incels and reactionary right/fascists is an idolization of patriarchal societies where women are not emancipated. Yi's suggestion that they tend left is not supported by anything I read about them so far.
So, like I don't want to say that "Incels" are not a problem. I've certainly heard the news reports about certain mass shootings.
But again - 17 years a career prosecutor. Professionally I've never seen an incel-related crime. But what I have seen is hundreds and hundreds of just regular-old incidents of domestic violence. "good ole" wife-beating. And it happens in every race and every class.
A focus on incels is completely missing the point if you want to talk about violence against women.
You guys waisted no time going off course with this thread. :p
Incels are a symptom of mysogony holding out in our society but far from the only one.
And Eddie's troll on murder statistics you fell for way too easy. Murder of women is the tiny top of the violence against women iceberg.
One problem is that many non-criminals are enormously accepting of crime and criminals.
The incel community as I understand it started as purely being about mutual support for guys who can't get laid, it then devolved in a culty direction of outright hating anyone who does get laid (which kind of wrecks the involuntary part of incel - fix your status and you're out of the club) and then went further down the rabbit hole into being a major far right recruitment ground. Incel culture is today an inherently far right and dangerous one.
They're also as well as being a problem in their own right a symptom of the deeper problems of toxic masculinity that infect modern culture. They represent an extreme but much of what you see in them does work its way through the heads of people who on the surface might be decent regular members of society, like this copper.
QuoteSo, like I don't want to say that "Incels" are not a problem. I've certainly heard the news reports about certain mass shootings.
But again - 17 years a career prosecutor. Professionally I've never seen an incel-related crime. But what I have seen is hundreds and hundreds of just regular-old incidents of domestic violence. "good ole" wife-beating. And it happens in every race and every class.
A focus on incels is completely missing the point if you want to talk about violence against women.
True in general. But the crime that prompted this was rather different to the norm; the sort of thing that probably does get too much attention albeit still not enough (if that makes sense) and this very much is bred by online culture.
If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....
That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.
If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.
Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.
Quote from: Berkut on October 03, 2021, 11:00:20 AM
If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....
That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.
If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.
Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.
Amen
Quote from: Berkut on October 03, 2021, 11:00:20 AM
If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....
That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.
If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.
Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.
So don't do that then.
Pointing out that there is a new dimension to an age-old problem does not preclude caring for the existing issue. One noticeable difference with inceldom is that there are several examples of them running amok and being a threat to society-at-large. That's new and unusual.
One eye-opener for me was when I, in my early twenties, started to have deep and meaningful friendships with women and they told me about how they had been treated by men. Each and every one of them had been raped or borderline raped.
Through my life, every time I've gotten in a situation where stuff like that have been discussed it's been the same. Each and every woman have been put through horrible abuse by men. Each and every one.
From the beautiful ones with their daily harassment, to the fat ugly ones that get loudly pitied upon when the pub closes, everyone has stories of male abuse.
And that's without the horror stories where violence becomes a part of the abuse. And also in Sweden, I imagine there are few better places for women.
Quote from: Tyr on October 03, 2021, 05:45:42 AM
They're also as well as being a problem in their own right a symptom of the deeper problems of toxic masculinity that infect modern culture. They represent an extreme but much of what you see in them does work its way through the heads of people who on the surface might be decent regular members of society, like this copper.
Toxic masculinity probably existed way before we ever talked of modern culture, but it was the norm back then, up the 60s-70s, maybe, when it started to change.
I don't think it's exact to say "it infects". It's always been there, we fought (well, the feminists fought harder at first :P ) against it, but juste like religion, there's a hardcore cell who has radicalized itself into their beliefs. And with the advent of the internet and message boards, they can regroup, exchange ideas and promote one another's extremism. Kinda like conspiracy theories. They always existed, but they're made worst because someone in Russia and China can push them to an American today, something that would have been harder to do in 1960.
Quote from: Berkut on October 03, 2021, 11:00:20 AM
If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....
That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.
If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.
Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.
Yeah, they mostly kill themselves. If they were in a position to beat up women they probably wouldn't be incels. I have a theory about the incels, a theory that makes me sound like a prude: Part of their problem is they watch too much porn. It gives them an unhealthy view of women, bizarre standards of beauty. and a deranged view of sex. A great deal of porn is misogynistic (not to mention disgusting and racist). You probably should have been in a sexual relationship before you consume pornography.
I think the major reason there is so much focus on incels is that pretty much anyone can feel superior to them, except for maybe a NAMBLA member. It would be hard to design a group that would tick more boxes for disdain than them.
Quote from: Zanza on October 03, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Pointing out that there is a new dimension to an age-old problem does not preclude caring for the existing issue. One noticeable difference with inceldom is that there are several examples of them running amok and being a threat to society-at-large. That's new and unusual.
Yes - although my understanding is that a large number of terrorists (from other ideological backgrounds) have criminal records or complaints for violence against women. I think it's most often domestic violence but it is interesting that there have been mass shootings by incels, but in a way moving that misogyny and hate into a general social threat is not something entirely new. I think it is seen as a bit of a red flag when combined with indicators of someone who's been radicalised.
QuoteOne eye-opener for me was when I, in my early twenties, started to have deep and meaningful friendships with women and they told me about how they had been treated by men. Each and every one of them had been raped or borderline raped.
Through my life, every time I've gotten in a situation where stuff like that have been discussed it's been the same. Each and every woman have been put through horrible abuse by men. Each and every one.
From the beautiful ones with their daily harassment, to the fat ugly ones that get loudly pitied upon when the pub closes, everyone has stories of male abuse.
And that's without the horror stories where violence becomes a part of the abuse. And also in Sweden, I imagine there are few better places for women.
Yeah. And speaking to women about the threat of dark streets for example.
QuoteI think the major reason there is so much focus on incels is that pretty much anyone can feel superior to them, except for maybe a NAMBLA member. It would be hard to design a group that would tick more boxes for disdain than them.
I think it's something new which always gets more attention and it might be the first ideology of the internet age. This didn't grow out of texts or old media etc - it emerged from message boards and memes. Again, I think that means it's interesting and probably gets more attention than it deserves.
Quote from: Maximus on October 02, 2021, 03:22:30 PM
IMO it's less about guilt than about who has the power to effect change.
Like BB I am all for whatever changes somebody comes up with. The problem is obvious for anybody with eyes to see. The solutions not so much...at least systemic ones there are always things we can do when opportunities come up in out everyday lives.
Which is certainly not to minimize violence against men, which is a big problem, but as pointed out here even if it is not violence women have to put up with a lot of shit. Also we usually get killed and assaulted by people we barely know while women tend to get killed and assaulted by close friends and partners....which strikes me as a worse situation.
IMO not having a solution does not excuse us from taking responsibility for the problem. Asking what the solution is is a good question, but IMO that needs to be the start of a conversation, not the end of it.
Quote from: Maximus on October 04, 2021, 01:51:56 PM
IMO not having a solution does not excuse us from taking responsibility for the problem. Asking what the solution is is a good question, but IMO that needs to be the start of a conversation, not the end of it.
I was saying the opposite. Yes we should all take personal responsibility for it but just like global warming it has only a tiny impact on the overall problem unfortunately.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 03, 2021, 02:10:35 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 03, 2021, 11:00:20 AM
If you could wave a magic wand and instantly end all incel driven violence against women forever....
That would have basically zero effect on the problem of male violence against women.
If you could wave a magic wand and fix the problem of male violence against women, then the incel problem would go away as well.
Talk about focusing on some stupid corner of a corner of a corner case that has zero bearing on the issue at hand.
Yeah, they mostly kill themselves. If they were in a position to beat up women they probably wouldn't be incels. I have a theory about the incels, a theory that makes me sound like a prude: Part of their problem is they watch too much porn. It gives them an unhealthy view of women, bizarre standards of beauty. and a deranged view of sex. A great deal of porn is misogynistic (not to mention disgusting and racist). You probably should have been in a sexual relationship before you consume pornography.
There is absolutely something to that.
Maybe 15 years ago I heard a really interesting talk from a former FBI criminal profiler. One thing I remember him saying was that in the old days you would hardly ever see anal sex assaults - it just wasn't something people associated as being sexual for the most part. But with the rise in pornography (and remember this was 15 years ago, so pre-youtube or pornhub) it sexualized anal sex for a lot of people, which in turn led to a rise in anal sex assaults.
And it's long been noted that porn can be desensitizing - that whereas just seeing naked boobs might be enough at first to get you off, you need stronger and more graphic sex acts the more porn you watch.
And now there's a lot of porn on the porn sites that involves slapping or choking women. And from the incel point of view they not only complain they can't get a girl - they complain they can't get their idealized madonna/whore figure they seem to think they're entitled to.
But let's be clear - porn did not cause violence against women. Because that's long, long been a problem. Remember Ralph Cramden on The Honeymooners thinly veiled threats to send beat his wife were used as a laugh line?
Yeah hitting your wife and kids was considered a normal thing to do just a few decades ago.
I would need to see some evidence violence against women is higher than it was back in, say, the 1980s before I start blaming the internet.
And on the choking thing there's been a spate of deaths that haven't resulted in convictions on the "rough sex"/"sex that got out of hand" that basically all involve choking. I think the law's been changed to explicitly deal with that.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 04, 2021, 02:26:19 PM
And on the choking thing there's been a spate of deaths that haven't resulted in convictions on the "rough sex"/"sex that got out of hand" that basically all involve choking. I think the law's been changed to explicitly deal with that.
So in Canada we've long had three different levels of assault. s. 266 is simple assault - using physical force against another person.
s. 267 (which carries a higher punishment) was divided into s. 267(a) - assault with a weapon, and s. 267(b), assault causing bodily harm (defined as serious pain or hurt).
The highest level is s. 268 aggravated assault, which typically endangers the life of the victim.
But after the law being like that for decades two years ago we brought in s. 267(c) - choking. So it's deemed to be a more serious charge even if there is no pain or injury.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2021, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 04, 2021, 01:51:56 PM
IMO not having a solution does not excuse us from taking responsibility for the problem. Asking what the solution is is a good question, but IMO that needs to be the start of a conversation, not the end of it.
I was saying the opposite. Yes we should all take personal responsibility for it but just like global warming it has only a tiny impact on the overall problem unfortunately.
Well two things:
I think this goes beyond personal responsibility and into taking responsibility for a problem that we likely didn't create, but we are needed to fix.
Just because individual action is ineffective doesn't mean individuals are powerless.
Both of these incidentally also apply to climate change, racial justice, and probably a whole lot of other problems.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2021, 02:23:55 PM
Yeah hitting your wife and kids was considered a normal thing to do just a few decades ago.
I would need to see some evidence violence against women is higher than it was back in, say, the 1980s before I start blaming the internet.
Oh, I'm pretty sure the absolute level of violence against women has gone down over the decades.
It's more a question of the types of violence used.
Quote from: Maximus on October 04, 2021, 02:38:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2021, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Maximus on October 04, 2021, 01:51:56 PM
IMO not having a solution does not excuse us from taking responsibility for the problem. Asking what the solution is is a good question, but IMO that needs to be the start of a conversation, not the end of it.
I was saying the opposite. Yes we should all take personal responsibility for it but just like global warming it has only a tiny impact on the overall problem unfortunately.
Well two things:
I think this goes beyond personal responsibility and into taking responsibility for a problem that we likely didn't create, but we are needed to fix.
Just because individual action is ineffective doesn't mean individuals are powerless.
Both of these incidentally also apply to climate change, racial justice, and probably a whole lot of other problems.
I 100% agree. Just stating the reality of the situation. I think the main difference between this and global warming is that many big solutions are out there to do, we just do not know how to gather the political capital to get them implemented. There are no big solutions, at least as obvious as the global warming thing, to this violence problem.
But in both cases we have a big individual responsibility to do our best, even if the problem requires a more systemic solution to really be effective.
Quote from: Valmy on October 04, 2021, 03:03:12 PMI think the main difference between this and global warming is that many big solutions are out there to do, we just do not know how to gather the political capital to get them implemented. There are no big solutions, at least as obvious as the global warming thing, to this violence problem.
That's fair.
To drill down on that a bit, I think the difference is that this is an entirely social problem, whereas climate change is partially a physical problem. We've solved the physical part of it, at least partly, so we have potential solutions.
With gendered violence there's no physical component so it's a lot harder to develop solutions. Or maybe social scientists have solutions and we just don't trust them like we do physical scientists.
Unconscionable :(
https://t.co/j50l6a4ZxE
QuoteRiders watched as a woman was raped on a SEPTA train but no one called 911, police say.
"It may have been stopped sooner if a rider called 911," authorities said of the sexual assault.
Oct. 17, 2021, 12:36 AM KST
By Nicole Acevedo
A 35-year-old man in Pennsylvania is facing rape and assault charges after a woman was sexually assaulted on board a public transit train Wednesday night as riders witnessed the attack but did not intervene, authorities said on Friday.
The woman was assaulted at around 11 p.m. while riding the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) Market-Frankford line towards the town of Upper Darby.
"The assault was observed by a SEPTA employee, who called 911, enabling SEPTA officers to respond immediately and apprehend the suspect in the act," Andrew Busch, a SEPTA spokesperson, said in a statement.
SEPTA officers arrested the man, later identified as 35-year-old Fiston Ngoy, according to Upper Darby Police Superintendent Timothy Bernhardt.
Surveillance video captured the entirety of the assault, giving investigators enough evidence to charge Ngoy with rape and assault, Bernhardt told NBC Philadelphia.
The video also shows how riders, who also witnessed the attack, did nothing to help the woman being assaulted, according to Bernhardt.
"It's disturbing," he said. "I'm shocked, I have no words for it. I just can't imagine seeing what you were seeing through your own eyes and seeing what this woman was going through that no one would step in and help her."
Investigators are also reviewing the videos in an effort to determine who was there and interview possible witnesses, Bernhardt added.
Bernhardt told NBC Philadelphia that he spoke to the woman on Friday and said she was doing okay after being taken to a hospital to be treated for her injuries following the assault.
Upper Darby police continues leading the investigation into the rape with assistance from SEPTA Transit Police. Investigators are also urging anyone who witnessed the attack to contact the authorities.
SEPTA is also urging possible witnesses to contact the authorities.
"The rape that occurred on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Wednesday night (Oct. 13) was a horrendous criminal act," Busch said. "There were other people on the train who witnessed this horrific act, and it may have been stopped sooner if a rider called 911."
"SEPTA urges anyone who observes a crime being committed or any dangerous situation occurring to report it. Anyone witnessing an emergency should immediately call 911," he added.
Ngoy remains in jail unable to post bail, NBC Philadelphia reported.
THe human ability to ignore what is happening right in front of them is kind of astounding.
I wonder if this goes into a lot of how mob mentality works - even when you are part of the mob, you don't really connect that what you are doing and seeing is part of the larger reality, which allows people to go along with things they would normally never do?
When it comes to diffusion of responsibility, I can't bring myself to condemn other people until I know I walked a mile in their shoes. If it happens often enough, it means that something is going on that makes that happen. Until I'm in that situation and act differently, I won't act superior to those who have been put in that situation and didn't.
I have been in a couple situations where after the first moment of shock, I reacted and wondered why nobody else was doing anything until I told them to help me. It kind of baffled me in both cases, why nobody was doing anything.
I have no idea if that would translate into THIS particular situation.
I don't know who the other riders were. If there was say a group of three grown men who were buddies then not doing anything seems bizarre. If there were two 100lb women who didn't know each other then getting into or risking getting into a fight (if he hears you calling 911 will he come over for some facetime with you?) with an obviously very dangerous grown man in an enclosed space without immediate assistance or escape might seem a wee bit daunting. Were there children around? There are a number of factors that come into play when you're facing a potentially life or death situation.
My guess though is that there were plenty of people around who could reasonably have intervened, or the police guy wouldn't be shocked.
I suspect many couldn't process what was happening.