Maybe a bit too niche for its own thread but let's give it a go.
Picking up on an interesting discussion that occurred over a couple of threads over diving in the Euros. There were a couple of things I appreciated about Chiellini's foul near the end of regulation time. For starters it was a smart play. Much better to commit a foul in a way that draws a certain yellow than to allow that English speedster to get way. But the thing I liked most about that play is there was no attempt to deceive or mask the play. And he didn't complain afterward. He knew the penalty for what he was going to do, measured the risks and decided the foul was worth taking.
I have a question for Berkut. When I was a player, I had a perception that the refs who frequently saw me in action knew I was not a flopper and I never complained about a call. Although, if I thought the ref was missing something, I would pick a quiet moment to say something only they could hear about looking for such and such. When I did get hit, I would normally get the call.
I was thinking about that watching the English Flopper from the semi-finals. In the final the ref was not giving him any calls (and I think rightfully so - he was flopping in the final as well)
In your experience - does perception of a player enter into the thinking of a ref, or was me thinking my rep as a clean player giving me the benefit of the doubt just in my head.
It definitely happens.
Sunderland used to have a player called Cattermole. There were a few seasons when he was very good. On the fringes of an England call up.
He was a traditional toughman defensive midfielder. When young he often went over the top with this and got himself sent off. As he matured he was a lot smarter about it and didn't commit so many fouls... Still he would always get harsh bookings against him as the reputation was there.
Sterling yes, he has built a reputation for diving. Though it many cases this is unfair. He doesn't go down like he has been shot and act dead like the Italian guy who dug his studs into grealish. He goes down when actual contact has been made and appeals for a decision.
This sterling style of play is quite different to the stereotypical grievous injury /lazarus style of divers. Theres a lot more respect to be given for those who behave appropriately vs those who try to get others sent off.
QuoteThere were a couple of things I appreciated about Chiellini's foul near the end of regulation time. For starters it was a smart play. Much better to commit a foul in a way that draws a certain yellow than to allow that English speedster to get way
A "tactical foul" it is called in Hungarian, and perhaps in English as well. It is a regular happening on football matches, as you described, taking a certain yellow to avoid a high-chance concede of a goal. I guess how ugly this particular incident was is up for debate. It certainly looked terrible but on the other hand he wasn't kicking out his legs like it usually happens.
It's a tactical foul in German, too.
Quote from: Tyr on July 12, 2021, 03:57:48 AM
Sterling yes, he has built a reputation for diving. Though it many cases this is unfair. He doesn't go down like he has been shot and act dead like the Italian guy who dug his studs into grealish. He goes down when actual contact has been made and appeals for a decision.
This sterling style of play is quite different to the stereotypical grievous injury /lazarus style of divers. Theres a lot more respect to be given for those who behave appropriately vs those who try to get others sent off.
While I agree that Sterling merely debased himself to the level of the average Italian player on the pitch, you are being far too lenient on him. One of his big dives last night I don't even think had a single touch of a contact beforehand. He is way too eager to go down in dramatic fashion. Most of the Italians just overact actual incidents.
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2021, 04:02:22 AM
It's a tactical foul in German, too.
Same in Spanish and as Tamas says it's not a rare ocurrence. There are moments where it's better to concede a yellow than let somebody through.
Tactical fouling is absolutely commonplace and widespread, nothing to be surprised about. Chiellini's action was an extreme one (as was, for instance, Luís Suárez's blatant handball in the 2014 WC), but low-level tactical fouling is absolutely everywhere, in fact England practiced it for the whole tournament.
There was a famous case where a key player in a German cup match in the 90s would have had to sit out the cup final because of aggregated yellow cards. So he got permission from his coach to collect a second yellow in the semi final which would have sent him off but allowed him to play the final. The association thought it was a step too far, though, and adjusted the rules so he still had to skip the final.
Yeah, the "collect a yellow card to get an early ban and avoid missing a key game later" is pretty blatant too. We've had some pretty hilarious cases of players trying to get carded in the most cynical ways.
Quote from: celedhring on July 12, 2021, 04:25:24 AM
Yeah, the "collect a yellow card to get an early ban and avoid missing a key game later" is pretty blatant too. We've had some pretty hilarious cases of players trying to get carded in the most cynical ways.
Yeah, the very calculated "collect the yellow that will get me a ban against a minnow so I can be available for the next big match" is super common.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2021, 10:28:40 PMIn your experience - does perception of a player enter into the thinking of a ref, or was me thinking my rep as a clean player giving me the benefit of the doubt just in my head.
It 100% does for refs in English football.
Chiellini's was a clever tactical foul.
But with Sterling for example - there are other players (Richarlison, Zaha, Vardy) who have a reputation for diving. They all tend to be pretty fast players who run with the ball so I don't think it takes much to knock them over (especially 5 foot 6 Sterling) and in the Premier League I think for all of them it is easy to get away with fouling them because they have a reputation as "that sort of player" - which is very frustrating because those players kind of get kicked a lot during the course of a season.
But on diving more generally there's always a discourse around it here because on the one hand commentators normally praise players for staying on their feet in the penalty box. But you will not get a foul unless you go down - even if it was a foul. So there's a tension between on the one hand praising people for staying on their feet, while noting that it was technically a foul and, from the perspective of the team, they should have gone down because the ref won't call it if you don't.
Quote from: celedhring on July 12, 2021, 04:06:20 AM
Quote from: Syt on July 12, 2021, 04:02:22 AM
It's a tactical foul in German, too.
Same in Spanish and as Tamas says it's not a rare ocurrence. There are moments where it's better to concede a yellow than let somebody through.
Same in French (faute tactique) and Portuguese (falta táctica). It's not dirty play which would mean foul with an intent to injury a player.
Bit of an understatement in both languages, however.
Quote from: The Larch on July 12, 2021, 04:28:12 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 12, 2021, 04:25:24 AM
Yeah, the "collect a yellow card to get an early ban and avoid missing a key game later" is pretty blatant too. We've had some pretty hilarious cases of players trying to get carded in the most cynical ways.
Yeah, the very calculated "collect the yellow that will get me a ban against a minnow so I can be available for the next big match" is super common.
:lol:
Oh yes, a classic in domestic leagues. "We need all yellows reset for the clássico!".
I've heard tactical foul. But also cynical foul.
Also variations about intelligent or rather smart foul.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2021, 10:28:40 PM
Maybe a bit too niche for its own thread but let's give it a go.
Picking up on an interesting discussion that occurred over a couple of threads over diving in the Euros. There were a couple of things I appreciated about Chiellini's foul near the end of regulation time. For starters it was a smart play. Much better to commit a foul in a way that draws a certain yellow than to allow that English speedster to get way. But the thing I liked most about that play is there was no attempt to deceive or mask the play. And he didn't complain afterward. He knew the penalty for what he was going to do, measured the risks and decided the foul was worth taking.
I have a question for Berkut. When I was a player, I had a perception that the refs who frequently saw me in action knew I was not a flopper and I never complained about a call. Although, if I thought the ref was missing something, I would pick a quiet moment to say something only they could hear about looking for such and such. When I did get hit, I would normally get the call.
I was thinking about that watching the English Flopper from the semi-finals. In the final the ref was not giving him any calls (and I think rightfully so - he was flopping in the final as well)
In your experience - does perception of a player enter into the thinking of a ref, or was me thinking my rep as a clean player giving me the benefit of the doubt just in my head.
That's a tough one.
The actual answer is....well, yeah. If you ref a certain league or group, of course you start to get to know the players. You definitely get to know the coaches!
You get to know who bitches about every single call, and you know you can basically (but not entirely) ignore them. And you know who actually knows the rules, and who doesn't, and who, when they say something....you should maybe give them a bit more attention, because they know to pick their spots to call something out, and they DO know the rules.
When it comes to players, yep - they get reputations with the officials for sure. How could they not?
It's different between American football and basketball. In basketball, players get a rep for being whiners or floppers. It's not so great though - mainly because I call a foul in basketball before they get a chance to complain, so the complaining when I don't doesn't really effect much. The floppers (trying to get a charge called) are a little more of a rep thing, but really - a charge call only happens a few times a game, and it is so bang-bang I pretty much always make that call in my head long before it really registers which players are involved.
American football is a little different, and depends on the level. You definitely start to get an idea for who plays dirty, and this is more of a concern in football. The offensive linemen who is known for taking that extra shove after the whistle if he thinks he can get away with it, or the linebacker who is always seeming to look for that blindside "blowup" hit away from the play. With football, especially at the college level, it is more about trying to forestall a injury risk. This is a LOT easier now with the changes in the rules over the last decade around late hits, blindside hits, and unnecessary roughness.
All THAT being said, as a referee, I do make i a point in my pre-game with my crew to talk about tendencies, and then talk about making sure we don't let tendencies make a call. Just because Sarah is known for trying to draw a charge every time she sets up in the paint, doesn't mean it isn't a charge! And just because Bob has drawn 4 unsportsmanlike late hit penalties this year does not mean that if someone is one the ground and Bob is standing there you should throw the flag - you still have to SEE the hit and know it was late or unnecessary.
Thanks!
I would have liked you as a ref when I was a player.