Fair play

[crazy canuck]

Maybe a bit too niche for its own thread but let's give it a go.

Picking up on an interesting discussion that occurred over a couple of threads over diving in the Euros.  There were a couple of things I appreciated about Chiellini's foul near the end of regulation time. For starters it was a smart play.  Much better to commit a foul in a way that draws a certain yellow than to allow that English speedster to get way.  But the thing I liked most about that play is there was no attempt to deceive or mask the play.  And he didn't complain afterward.  He knew the penalty for what he was going to do, measured the risks and decided the foul was worth taking.

I have a question for Berkut.  When I was a player, I had a perception that the refs who frequently saw me in action knew I was not a flopper and I never complained about a call.  Although, if I thought the ref was missing something, I would pick a quiet moment to say something only they could hear about looking for such and such.  When I did get hit, I would normally get the call.

I was thinking about that watching the English Flopper from the semi-finals.  In the final the ref was not giving him any calls (and I think rightfully so - he was flopping in the final as well)

In your experience - does perception of a player enter into the thinking of a ref, or was me thinking my rep as a clean player giving me the benefit of the doubt just in my head.

[Josquius]

It definitely happens.
Sunderland used to have a player called Cattermole. There were a few seasons when he was very good. On the fringes of an England call up.
He was a traditional toughman defensive midfielder. When young he often went over the top with this and got himself sent off. As he matured he was a lot smarter about it and didn't commit so many fouls... Still he would always get harsh bookings against him as the reputation was there.

Sterling yes, he has built a reputation for diving. Though it many cases this is unfair. He doesn't go down like he has been shot and act dead like the Italian guy who dug his studs into grealish. He goes down when actual contact has been made and appeals for a decision.

This sterling style of play is quite different to the stereotypical grievous injury /lazarus style of divers. Theres a lot more respect to be given for those who behave appropriately vs those who try to get others sent off.

[Tamas]

There were a couple of things I appreciated about Chiellini's foul near the end of regulation time. For starters it was a smart play.  Much better to commit a foul in a way that draws a certain yellow than to allow that English speedster to get way

A "tactical foul" it is called in Hungarian, and perhaps in English as well. It is a regular happening on football matches, as you described, taking a certain yellow to avoid a high-chance concede of a goal. I guess how ugly this particular incident was is up for debate. It certainly looked terrible but on the other hand he wasn't kicking out his legs like it usually happens.

[Syt]

It's a tactical foul in German, too.

[Tamas]

Sterling yes, he has built a reputation for diving. Though it many cases this is unfair. He doesn't go down like he has been shot and act dead like the Italian guy who dug his studs into grealish. He goes down when actual contact has been made and appeals for a decision.

This sterling style of play is quite different to the stereotypical grievous injury /lazarus style of divers. Theres a lot more respect to be given for those who behave appropriately vs those who try to get others sent off.

While I agree that Sterling merely debased himself to the level of the average Italian player on the pitch, you are being far too lenient on him.  One of his big dives last night I don't even think had a single touch of a contact beforehand. He is way too eager to go down in dramatic fashion. Most of the Italians just overact actual incidents.

[celedhring]

It's a tactical foul in German, too.

Same in Spanish and as Tamas says it's not a rare ocurrence. There are moments where it's better to concede a yellow than let somebody through.

[The Larch]

Tactical fouling is absolutely commonplace and widespread, nothing to be surprised about. Chiellini's action was an extreme one (as was, for instance, Luís Suárez's blatant handball in the 2014 WC), but low-level tactical fouling is absolutely everywhere, in fact England practiced it for the whole tournament.

[Syt]

There was a famous case where a key player in a German cup match in the 90s would have had to sit out the cup final because of aggregated yellow cards. So he got permission from his coach to collect a second yellow in the semi final which would have sent him off but allowed him to play the final. The association thought it was a step too far, though, and adjusted the rules so he still had to skip the final.

[celedhring]

Yeah, the "collect a yellow card to get an early ban and avoid missing a key game later" is pretty blatant too. We've had some pretty hilarious cases of players trying to get carded in the most cynical ways.

[The Larch]

Yeah, the "collect a yellow card to get an early ban and avoid missing a key game later" is pretty blatant too. We've had some pretty hilarious cases of players trying to get carded in the most cynical ways.

Yeah, the very calculated "collect the yellow that will get me a ban against a minnow so I can be available for the next big match" is super common.

[Sheilbh]

In your experience - does perception of a player enter into the thinking of a ref, or was me thinking my rep as a clean player giving me the benefit of the doubt just in my head.

It 100% does for refs in English football.

Chiellini's was a clever tactical foul.

But with Sterling for example - there are other players (Richarlison, Zaha, Vardy) who have a reputation for diving. They all tend to be pretty fast players who run with the ball so I don't think it takes much to knock them over (especially 5 foot 6 Sterling) and in the Premier League I think for all of them it is easy to get away with fouling them because they have a reputation as "that sort of player" - which is very frustrating because those players kind of get kicked a lot during the course of a season.

But on diving more generally there's always a discourse around it here because on the one hand commentators normally praise players for staying on their feet in the penalty box. But you will not get a foul unless you go down - even if it was a foul. So there's a tension between on the one hand praising people for staying on their feet, while noting that it was technically a foul and, from the perspective of the team, they should have gone down because the ref won't call it if you don't.

[Duque de Bragança]

It's a tactical foul in German, too.

Same in Spanish and as Tamas says it's not a rare ocurrence. There are moments where it's better to concede a yellow than let somebody through.

Same in French (faute tactique) and Portuguese (falta táctica). It's not dirty play which would mean foul with an intent to injury a player.
Bit of an understatement in both languages, however.

[Duque de Bragança]

Yeah, the "collect a yellow card to get an early ban and avoid missing a key game later" is pretty blatant too. We've had some pretty hilarious cases of players trying to get carded in the most cynical ways.

Yeah, the very calculated "collect the yellow that will get me a ban against a minnow so I can be available for the next big match" is super common.

Oh yes, a classic in domestic leagues. "We need all yellows reset for the clássico!".

[Josquius]

I've heard tactical foul. But also cynical foul.

[Duque de Bragança]

Also variations about intelligent or rather smart foul.