Tying in with my How Zealous are you poll.
Are you still masking and social distancing just like before?
And more importantly, when will you change your behavior? Will you wait for an official all clear from the public health authorities?
1st of all not one bit because my wife has not been vaccinated.
Secondly, I intend to continue following the guidelines even when she will have been. That's not just the responsible but also the polite thing to do.
I expect these will be reduced to just distancing and possibly masks here by the summer.
Yeah - I'm following the guidelines. My behaviour is basically just shaped by what we are/aren't allowed to do.
With Tamas I'm expecting by the summer it will maybe just be masks indoors, I don't even think distancing will be a thing.
I'm not fully vaccinated yet, in fact I'm waiting in line for my second shot now, but I guess three weeks after the first shot I'm vaccinated enough. I'm not yet doing anything differently, and I would certainly not defy any rules under assumption that I'm bulletproof now.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 10, 2021, 02:47:16 PM
Tying in with my How Zealous are you poll.
Are you still masking and social distancing just like before?
And more importantly, when will you change your behavior? Will you wait for an official all clear from the public health authorities?
Yes
Yes
Masking and doing the social distance thing because my peers don't know I am immune, so I leave them feeling comfortable around me.
I'm seeing a tiny trickle of 80+ oldsters at my local grocer not wearing masks but otherwise business as usual. We're still trying to get vaccines for the staff at the local bloodbank. Every jab is administered as fast as they can land them here.
My wife is a physio, she might get her first jab of the Moderna vaccine sometime, God willing, etc, etc, next week?
Quote from: grumbler on April 10, 2021, 07:31:45 PM
Masking and doing the social distance thing because my peers don't know I am immune, so I leave them feeling comfortable around me.
Same.
That being said, I am planning vacations, getaways, and get togethers with other vaccinated friends. We'll keep to ourselves, mask up, and socially distance from those we come in contact with.
Being vaccinated is not a magical status that means you can't spread the virus anymore. Being vaccinated is supposed to help you fight off the virus if you catch it. You can still be contagious/catch a variant to which your immune system is less prepared/vaccine didn't work for you.
For example the J&J vaccine is 100% effective in terms of hospitalization and death prevention. It's only 65% effective in terms of preventing an actual Sars-Cov2 infection though.
I will still be masking up. I have been going out on weekly basis to grab drinks with friends, but still following social distancing guidelines. That won't change.
Not vaccinated yet but once I get it I intend to start going into the office more and going out to eat more.
Still be wearing a mask though...kind of weird to go out without one by this point :P
I just follow the rules and don't really think about it. A couple of inadvertent breaches, I walked into a shop maskless because I forgot, stood too close to a friend that sort of thing - both breaches quickly corrected of course.
I don't see the point of quibbling over the rules; I feel that mass compliance with a set of imperfect rules is likely to lead to better results than individuals making up their own rules as they go along.
Once we have this thing sorted we will have to ensure that the government backs off though; making rules up ad-hoc and snooping on people may be too attractive for them to give away easily.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 10, 2021, 02:47:16 PM
Tying in with my How Zealous are you poll.
Are you still masking and social distancing just like before?
And more importantly, when will you change your behavior? Will you wait for an official all clear from the public health authorities?
I have received my first shot only. So nothing has changed.
But even after I have received my second shot, my behaviour won't change. In HK, everybody wears masks. Getting vaccinated won't change that. Nobody will not wear a mask because of vaccination.
Haven't been vaccinated yet, but my behaviour will definitely change when I am.
I'll start by letting the maid back in. I'll try to be more social as well. Haven't done much socializing outside work for the past year.
I'll be masking up still. Especially when I start commuting to work again. Not catching any colds at all last year was great and hopefully masks will help keep that up when I start taking the subway.
Sometimes I check if people have complied with compulsory testing orders, which are common around here. They say they don't need to, because they have already been vaccinated :lol:
I say that's not what the law says. The law says you need to get tested, vaccinated or not. So I then gave him a ticket to increase government revenue by US$600 :contract:
Quote from: Zoupa on April 10, 2021, 09:52:28 PM
Being vaccinated is not a magical status that means you can't spread the virus anymore. Being vaccinated is supposed to help you fight off the virus if you catch it. You can still be contagious/catch a variant to which your immune system is less prepared/vaccine didn't work for you.
For example the J&J vaccine is 100% effective in terms of hospitalization and death prevention. It's only 65% effective in terms of preventing an actual Sars-Cov2 infection though.
I've gotten the Moderna. This is the current information on that vaccine:
LINK (https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/03/04/vaccine-transmission#:~:text=A%20handful%20of%20recent%20studies,messaging%20should%20start%20reflecting%20that)
Quote
Ahandful of recent studies suggest that the coronavirus vaccines developed by Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna not only prevent people who are exposed to the virus from contracting Covid-19, but also prevent them from spreading the virus to others—and some experts say public health messaging should start reflecting that benefit.
:yes:
Yeah, I think the extreme risk aversion is counter-productive, and risks undermining credibility. If vaccines aren't perfectly effective, but effective enough to reduce the risk to the level of acceptable casualties, then act like it with the policies. Don't justify more of the same by stressing that some risk still remains (no shit).
That said, I won't take it upon myself to make that determination, and I have faith that CDC officials do have a more nuanced understanding of public safety than wishing that everyone were holed up in their homes quadruple-masked under plastic wrap for the next ten years.
Fully vaccinated and post 2 weeks in now and I'm still masking and maintaining social distancing unless I'm in a (small) group of people I know have all been fully vaccinated. I presume that will be my go-to for the foreseeable future.
THis Sunday I am going to go to a friend house and watch the Formula 1 race and play Stellar Horizons with a group of people who have all been vaccinated.
I would not do that except that everyone involved has been vaccinated fully.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 11, 2021, 12:09:06 AM
I just follow the rules and don't really think about it.
So for those with this line of behavior, what would you do if the government had already removed all the rules and local businesses didn't have any of their own? And like 95% of people inside stores had no masks, including workers.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 10, 2021, 09:52:28 PM
Being vaccinated is not a magical status that means you can't spread the virus anymore. Being vaccinated is supposed to help you fight off the virus if you catch it. You can still be contagious/catch a variant to which your immune system is less prepared/vaccine didn't work for you.
For example the J&J vaccine is 100% effective in terms of hospitalization and death prevention. It's only 65% effective in terms of preventing an actual Sars-Cov2 infection though.
Yeah, it is a bit concerning hearing someone describe themselves as "immune" because they have been vaccinated. Immunity will come when COVID is no longer being transmitted.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 12, 2021, 10:04:50 AM
So for those with this line of behavior, what would you do if the government had already removed all the rules and local businesses didn't have any of their own? And like 95% of people inside stores had no masks, including workers.
I'd follow social cues to be honest. Very British response, I know, but I'd do what seemed polite given the context.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 12, 2021, 10:04:50 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 11, 2021, 12:09:06 AM
I just follow the rules and don't really think about it.
So for those with this line of behavior, what would you do if the government had already removed all the rules and local businesses didn't have any of their own? And like 95% of people inside stores had no masks, including workers.
Right now I would join in the fun; each individual makes very little difference and I have no personal fear of the virus. I think it would be a mistaken policy though, right now "freedom day" for the UK is set to be the 21st of June, with the way cases and vaccinations are going that looks about right to me (famous last words).
No change. Still mostly introverted. My cat gives me all the abuse I might be missing not interacting with the public outside of work.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 10:49:09 AM
Yeah, it is a bit concerning hearing someone describe themselves as "immune" because they have been vaccinated. Immunity will come when COVID is no longer being transmitted.
this isn't correct. They are almost certainly "resistant to a particular infection or toxin owing to the presence of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells" - while they may not have sufficient resistance to eliminate the risk of infection completely, it seems ~100% of vaccinated people have enough resistance to prevent serious complications and death.
On the other hand, community transmission is irrelevant to immunity. Someone not vaccinated to polio is likely not immune even though his/her risk is zero assuming he/she lives in North America or Europe and polio is no longer being transmitted in those places.
An odd result to consider immune someone who can still be infected and pass on that infection - in the context of a world wide pandemic.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
An odd result to consider immune someone who can still be infected and pass on that infection - in the context of a world wide pandemic.
If your standard for "immune" requires absolute protection from any infection from everyone who has received the vaccine in the population, there is a very short list of vaccines (maybe zero) in history that have ever made someone "immune".
These vaccines are about as good as it gets.
Quote from: alfred russel on April 12, 2021, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
An odd result to consider immune someone who can still be infected and pass on that infection - in the context of a world wide pandemic.
If your standard for "immune" requires absolute protection from any infection from everyone who has received the vaccine in the population, there is a very short list of vaccines (maybe zero) in history that have ever made someone "immune".
These vaccines are about as good as it gets.
You might have missed it but this thread is about how people will conduct themselves after they get vaccinated. That has a lot to do with passing on infections to others. Unless you are a person who does not think of others.
I think expecting that we can prevent most of the population from ever catching covid is hopeless at this stage, unless we remain in a global lockdown for years or something.
What we can realistically hope for is to prevent most most of the population from ending up hospitalised by it. Vaccines seem to be achieving that. They won't prevent everyone from being hospitalised and dying of it, sadly, but over the years the virus should mutate into the nasty case of flue the deniers made it out to be and we will live with it washing through us annually like the flu.
But, that has little to do with becoming a careless jerk once you have had your jab. Social distancing and mask wearing will phase out by a combination of government decree and group behaviour but in the meantime, especially with so many people still not vaccinated, the right thing to do is follow the rules.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 01:00:55 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on April 12, 2021, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
An odd result to consider immune someone who can still be infected and pass on that infection - in the context of a world wide pandemic.
If your standard for "immune" requires absolute protection from any infection from everyone who has received the vaccine in the population, there is a very short list of vaccines (maybe zero) in history that have ever made someone "immune".
These vaccines are about as good as it gets.
You might have missed it but this thread is about how people will conduct themselves after they get vaccinated. That has a lot to do with passing on infections to others. Unless you are a person who does not think of others.
In case you missed it, the vaccines are extremely effective, and a much greater public health problem than fully vaccinated people not wearing masks is vaccine hesitancy.
You started the pandemic out by questioning whether covid was really worse than the flu, and are now challenging the effectiveness of the vaccines to provide immunity. Stop it.
Isn't there a fair amount of evidence emerging that the vaccines are effective at reducing transmission (including asymptomatic transmission)?
It wasn't a big point of the clinical trials but that's because it wasn't a focus at the time - a bit like the 3 week dosing regime wasn't based on anything scientific it was done so the trials could be conducted as quickly as possible.
Obviously that doesn't mean anyone should be breaking the rules, but I think we worry a little bit too much about issues like variants (which need monitoring) rather than the fact that it does look possible to reach herd immunity (Israel might be approaching it) and to protect the vulnerable enough that our lives will return to normal.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 01:22:10 PM
Isn't there a fair amount of evidence emerging that the vaccines are effective at reducing transmission (including asymptomatic transmission)?
It wasn't a big point of the clinical trials but that's because it wasn't a focus at the time - a bit like the 3 week dosing regime wasn't based on anything scientific it was done so the trials could be conducted as quickly as possible.
Obviously that doesn't mean anyone should be breaking the rules, but I think we worry a little bit too much about issues like variants (which need monitoring) rather than the fact that it does look possible to reach herd immunity (Israel might be approaching it) and to protect the vulnerable enough that our lives will return to normal.
Yeah if less effective against a variant means less effective at preventing catching it but equally effective at preventing hospitalisation, then I think that's a perfectly good result.
Quote from: Tamas on April 12, 2021, 01:28:00 PM
Yeah if less effective against a variant means less effective at preventing catching it but equally effective at preventing hospitalisation, then I think that's a perfectly good result.
Yeah and so far that only seems to really be an issue with the South African variant - and I expect we'll have booster shots for it by the autumn.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 01:22:10 PM
Isn't there a fair amount of evidence emerging that the vaccines are effective at reducing transmission (including asymptomatic transmission)?
It wasn't a big point of the clinical trials but that's because it wasn't a focus at the time - a bit like the 3 week dosing regime wasn't based on anything scientific it was done so the trials could be conducted as quickly as possible.
Obviously that doesn't mean anyone should be breaking the rules, but I think we worry a little bit too much about issues like variants (which need monitoring) rather than the fact that it does look possible to reach herd immunity (Israel might be approaching it) and to protect the vulnerable enough that our lives will return to normal.
I think that is true. But the key word there is reduce - not eliminate. herd immunity will occur when a sufficient number of people receive the vaccine so that the virus cannot spread. But we are a long way from that or anyone thinking they are currently "immune" because they received the jab. We will likely start approaching that by Juneish.
Quote from: Tamas on April 12, 2021, 01:28:00 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 01:22:10 PM
Isn't there a fair amount of evidence emerging that the vaccines are effective at reducing transmission (including asymptomatic transmission)?
It wasn't a big point of the clinical trials but that's because it wasn't a focus at the time - a bit like the 3 week dosing regime wasn't based on anything scientific it was done so the trials could be conducted as quickly as possible.
Obviously that doesn't mean anyone should be breaking the rules, but I think we worry a little bit too much about issues like variants (which need monitoring) rather than the fact that it does look possible to reach herd immunity (Israel might be approaching it) and to protect the vulnerable enough that our lives will return to normal.
Yeah if less effective against a variant means less effective at preventing catching it but equally effective at preventing hospitalisation, then I think that's a perfectly good result.
The concern is not so much the current variants, but given the speed this thing mutates, what comes next.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 01:30:45 PM
I think that is true. But the key word there is reduce - not eliminate. herd immunity will occur when a sufficient number of people receive the vaccine so that the virus cannot spread. But we are a long way from that or anyone thinking they are currently "immune" because they received the jab. We will likely start approaching that by Juneish.
Yes - but I actually wonder if the slightly cautious communication around vaccines fuels vaccine hesitancy. In the US from what I see there seems to still be a bit of negativity or people being, in my view, too cautious about them in public and I think that's possibly because they don't want people to stop with masks and distancing now. But I feel like if what they hear is we'll be doing that and living with restrictions forever that'll increase reluctance to get vaccinated - because what's the point. I think part of it is an understandable reluctance to over-promise but, from what I see, it feels like people are under-promising to the point that it might turn people off.
I think that view is wrong. But I think it's where messaging needs to come in and the message should be that the vaccines are great, they're doing better than we realised when they were approved and they're our way out of this. This may just be my perceptions based on who I follow in the US, but I do think they need a bit more boosterism about the vaccines.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 01:42:17 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 01:30:45 PM
I think that is true. But the key word there is reduce - not eliminate. herd immunity will occur when a sufficient number of people receive the vaccine so that the virus cannot spread. But we are a long way from that or anyone thinking they are currently "immune" because they received the jab. We will likely start approaching that by Juneish.
Yes - but I actually wonder if the slightly cautious communication around vaccines fuels vaccine hesitancy. In the US from what I see there seems to still be a bit of negativity or people being, in my view, too cautious about them in public and I think that's possibly because they don't want people to stop with masks and distancing now. But I feel like if what they hear is we'll be doing that and living with restrictions forever that'll increase reluctance to get vaccinated - because what's the point. I think part of it is an understandable reluctance to over-promise but, from what I see, it feels like people are under-promising to the point that it might turn people off.
I think that view is wrong. But I think it's where messaging needs to come in and the message should be that the vaccines are great, they're doing better than we realised when they were approved and they're our way out of this. This may just be my perceptions based on who I follow in the US, but I do think they need a bit more boosterism about the vaccines.
The middle ground is if we get herd immunity through vaccinations we can lift restrictions forever, so everyone get vaccinated.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 01:22:10 PM
Isn't there a fair amount of evidence emerging that the vaccines are effective at reducing transmission (including asymptomatic transmission)?
It wasn't a big point of the clinical trials but that's because it wasn't a focus at the time - a bit like the 3 week dosing regime wasn't based on anything scientific it was done so the trials could be conducted as quickly as possible.
Obviously that doesn't mean anyone should be breaking the rules, but I think we worry a little bit too much about issues like variants (which need monitoring) rather than the fact that it does look possible to reach herd immunity (Israel might be approaching it) and to protect the vulnerable enough that our lives will return to normal.
I think that is true. But the key word there is reduce - not eliminate. herd immunity will occur when a sufficient number of people receive the vaccine so that the virus cannot spread. But we are a long way from that or anyone thinking they are currently "immune" because they received the jab. We will likely start approaching that by Juneish.
I don't think anyone is "immune", but I do believe that being vaccinated has so far shown that I am not likely to get nor transmit the virus. That's not nothing.
Quote from: merithyn on April 12, 2021, 04:13:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 12, 2021, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 12, 2021, 01:22:10 PM
Isn't there a fair amount of evidence emerging that the vaccines are effective at reducing transmission (including asymptomatic transmission)?
It wasn't a big point of the clinical trials but that's because it wasn't a focus at the time - a bit like the 3 week dosing regime wasn't based on anything scientific it was done so the trials could be conducted as quickly as possible.
Obviously that doesn't mean anyone should be breaking the rules, but I think we worry a little bit too much about issues like variants (which need monitoring) rather than the fact that it does look possible to reach herd immunity (Israel might be approaching it) and to protect the vulnerable enough that our lives will return to normal.
I think that is true. But the key word there is reduce - not eliminate. herd immunity will occur when a sufficient number of people receive the vaccine so that the virus cannot spread. But we are a long way from that or anyone thinking they are currently "immune" because they received the jab. We will likely start approaching that by Juneish.
I don't think anyone is "immune", but I do believe that being vaccinated has so far shown that I am not likely to get nor transmit the virus. That's not nothing.
I agree entirely. I was only commenting on the word immune. The reason we are going to achieve herd immunity is because when large numbers do get vaccinated the virus will have nowhere to go.
Given the virus type - and knowing its propensity for mutating - I can't imagine that we'll ever be "immune". No more than we're ever going to be immune from the common cold. What we need is to have enough exposure to not die from getting it, either via vaccine or getting it.
Especially since we are leaving huge swaths of the world unvaccinated, and probably for a long time. Variants will continue to develop.
Quote from: merithyn on April 12, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
Given the virus type - and knowing its propensity for mutating - I can't imagine that we'll ever be "immune". No more than we're ever going to be immune from the common cold. What we need is to have enough exposure to not die from getting it, either via vaccine or getting it.
Yes, the longer this goes on, the more likely that scenario becomes. And with countries like Brazil in the mix, that might well be the case. The nightmare scenario is that this mutates into something more deadly and easily transmissible but that is the long shot. If this mutates to be less severe and more like the multitude of cold and flu viruses then it will be less concerning. The current vaccination programs will likely stamp out the current versions of the virus, which is the important part (absent the nightmare scenario of course).
Quote from: Oexmelin on April 12, 2021, 04:40:31 PM
Especially since we are leaving huge swaths of the world unvaccinated, and probably for a long time. Variants will continue to develop.
Yeah we need a massive global effort on vaccinations - especially in Africa where it's been minimal so far.
But I'm optimistic. We are four months into this and have only got a few vaccines but almost 800 million doses have been administered. Richer countries are (generally) ahead, but large medium-income countries are also rolling out at increasing pace - Brazil, China, India and Turkey are all somewhere between 0.25-05% of the population a day (and are up to about 5-10% already) and that is expected to increase with supply. I think as supply increases and as the number of vaccines increase we can get a huge chunk of the world vaccinated this year (plus booster shots) and I think everyone who wants it within 18 months.
Quote from: merithyn on April 12, 2021, 04:13:46 PM
I don't think anyone is "immune",
How many vaccines in human history can you list that render people "immune", if you won't qualify these vaccines?
Maybe should retire the word from the human language if these don't qualify as making people "immune".
I've never heard this type of challenging of any other vaccines. There couldn't be a more effective method to discourage people from getting the covid vaccine: you don't get to be immune, you still have to take all the precautions, who knows how effective they are against variants.
On the other side of the coin from AR...
My daughter is graduating from college May 8th. It's a live graduation in the stadium outside in Ames, IA. We're ordering tacos (serving them individually) and hanging out outside. My sister has a pool, but since it will be evening in early May, no one will likely be in it.
My sons (and their partners) as well as my brother and his family and of course me and E are all heading to my sister's in Des Moines to celebrate. The boys are flying while my brother and I are both driving. ALL of us are now vaccinated, or will be fully vaccinated, prior to her graduation date. The total number of people getting together at my sister's is potentially 15 people. (Again, all 15 are vaccinated.)
As a courtesy, I invited my daughter's father and his family to the gathering after. He and his wife are both vaccinated, but their nine-year-old daughter is not. When my daughter found out that I'd invited them, she was livid. Not because she didn't want them there, but apparently they have been very vocally derisive of anyone doing anything outside their homes even now. Neither leave the house to work, grocery shop, or for any other reason. Their daughter is homeschooled "until this is over". His wife apparently still wipes everything that comes into the house with Clorox wipes. This has not lessened even with the vaccinations.
My daughter wasn't worried about his saying no (he's not even likely to go to her graduation), but his talking shit about us having the gathering at all. She said that she fully expects to have to hear over and over again what morons we are for daring to do such a thing during a pandemic. Mind you, we're going to be following all of the current CDC guidelines for those even *not* vaccinated.
There are extremes on all sides.
Very happy for your daughter :cheers:
No announcement on our younger son's grad - he is in Ontario so very likely to be a remote experience.
I just got my second vaccination shot last week. I haven't changed behavior - still masks and distancing as most stores require or request it and I'll follow their rules. In time things should change, loosen up, or so I hope.
Now that I've been fully vaccinated, I did change my behavior somewhat. I obviously still follow all the requirements, but I'm now far less risk averse on top of that. For example, I already played poker a couple of times in a casino. In theory, I could've been doing that for the last six months since they reopened, as mask wearing in casinos is mandatory and there are plexiglass dividers at the tables, but in practice there is no way that I would've taken a risk that these precautions would be sufficient absent vaccination. I'm also less anxious about running into idiots who hack their lungs out or have yet to figure out that the mask goes over the nose.