I asked the question before. I am asking again, as we near the end of the Trump presidency.
No.
I went from considering republican candidates to refusing to consider them.
It's made me more conservative. I care far more about character and personal peccadilloes than I did five years ago.
My opinion doesn't matter as I'm a European, but no it hasn't.
Though I will say the Trump party seems to have force quite a few languishites to come out in favour of liberal democratic norms and state their opposition to the republican party, as it now stands, that they used to vote for.
For the first time in my life I thought about buying a gun. I won't do it of course, I'm not the sort of person who should have a gun, but I still thought about it. I feel like a few more shoes are going to drop, and I don't know what my political opinions will be until then. On the plus side spending an entire year in abject terror has caused me to lose some weight.
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2021, 01:12:05 PM
I went from considering republican candidates to refusing to consider them.
This is stuff I'd love to see more of in America (and if I had been American I would have been the same). Like, some Republicans say the right things (and may even have said them for a long time), but after everything that's happened they STILL think that the GOP is a better party than the Democrats. When you let that sink in it's just wow.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 10, 2021, 01:17:10 PM
For the first time in my life I thought about buying a gun. I won't do it of course, I'm not the sort of person who should have a gun, but I still thought about it. I feel like a few more shoes are going to drop, and I don't know what my political opinions will be until then. On the plus side spending an entire year in abject terror has caused me to lose some weight.
Oh yeah, I forgot. I went full in on BLM. After this summer, fuck the police.
It made me more politically radical than before. But I think the whole 2016 election did that. I am much more open to big interventions to ease the problems common Americans are experiencing now, they are pissed off and I don't know how much longer the center will hold without something.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 10, 2021, 01:19:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 10, 2021, 01:17:10 PM
For the first time in my life I thought about buying a gun. I won't do it of course, I'm not the sort of person who should have a gun, but I still thought about it. I feel like a few more shoes are going to drop, and I don't know what my political opinions will be until then. On the plus side spending an entire year in abject terror has caused me to lose some weight.
Oh yeah, I forgot. I went full in on BLM. After this summer, fuck the police.
Yeah the cops need to be reformed. That Chicago cop saying he just couldn't believe Biden won 81 million votes so it must be rigged...in the middle of a city that vote 75% for Biden. How out of touch with your own community and drinking the Kool-aid can you be?
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2021, 01:12:05 PM
I went from considering republican candidates to refusing to consider them.
Same.
The Bush Presidency did that to me, but I still would vote in the Republican Primary if I thought that Primary was more important (while still not voting for them in the general).
Not anymore.
Quote from: grumbler on January 10, 2021, 01:12:05 PM
I went from considering republican candidates to refusing to consider them.
This. I would not have voted for Bob Menendez if Trump had not made Dem numbers in the Senate an existential crisis.
I stopped disdaining Russians for their surrender to authoritarianism. I realized how glassy my own house is.
Quote from: DGuller on January 10, 2021, 01:54:34 PM
I stopped disdaining Russians for their surrender to authoritarianism. I realized how glassy my own house is.
Yeah? Interesting because you had a pretty informative opinion about this. Showing how the cynicism that decades of domestic political failure in Russia had created was the key to its authoritarian system. Once you convince everybody that everything is rigged and corrupt it is pretty easy to run an actual rigged and corrupt state. People just presume that is how everything is.
I think whatever sympathy/patience/illusions I had for/with/about the "moderate" part of the GOP and its chances to show up evaporated with Trump's primary victory, so no.
My values and principles have not changed.
I too am boycotting Republican candidates for the foreseeable future.
I was surprised by how many stupid angry white people we have in this country.
I was surprised by how much unilateral power the presidency has.
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Yeah? Interesting because you had a pretty informative opinion about this. Showing how the cynicism that decades of domestic political failure in Russia had created was the key to its authoritarian system. Once you convince everybody that everything is rigged and corrupt it is pretty easy to run an actual rigged and corrupt state. People just presume that is how everything is.
I agree with you this. People who are consistently cynical about corruption are enablers of corruption. The first requirement for fighting corruption is to believe that it is possible. The next step is to insist that corruption is unacceptable. Cynically arguing that "nothing can be done" is enabling. Same goes for many other things.
As for the original question - not really. A whole lot of things I worried about I kept to myself because I didn't want to seem hysterical came true, more or less. Some things didn't, thankfully, and others still surprised me.
Though the profound moral corruption of American policing as an institution (notwithstanding decent individuals) was definitely shocking for me, and has shifted my stance on that particular issue (not that I have any say on American policing). It has also made me more suspicious of Canadian police.
One thing I do wonder about is why Canada hasn't gone down the route of populist authoritarianism undermining the foundations of democracy. Is there something in the way we are organized politically and the current political situation that stops that slide? Is it just more or less random luck? Or is it coming, we're just a bit behind the curve? I don't know.
Yes, my opinion of the US took a straight nose dive at high speed after the high that were the Obama years. You are a untrustworthy nation. On the world stage the US is only good to keep us from getting nuked by China or Russia.
Quote from: Jacob on January 10, 2021, 03:13:56 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Yeah? Interesting because you had a pretty informative opinion about this. Showing how the cynicism that decades of domestic political failure in Russia had created was the key to its authoritarian system. Once you convince everybody that everything is rigged and corrupt it is pretty easy to run an actual rigged and corrupt state. People just presume that is how everything is.
I agree with you this. People who are consistently cynical about corruption are enablers of corruption. The first requirement for fighting corruption is to believe that it is possible. The next step is to insist that corruption is unacceptable. Cynically arguing that "nothing can be done" is enabling. Same goes for many other things.
As for the original question - not really. A whole lot of things I worried about I kept to myself because I didn't want to seem hysterical came true, more or less. Some things didn't, thankfully, and others still surprised me.
Though the profound moral corruption of American policing as an institution (notwithstanding decent individuals) was definitely shocking for me, and has shifted my stance on that particular issue (not that I have any say on American policing). It has also made me more suspicious of Canadian police.
One thing I do wonder about is why Canada hasn't gone down the route of populist authoritarianism undermining the foundations of democracy. Is there something in the way we are organized politically and the current political situation that stops that slide? Is it just more or less random luck? Or is it coming, we're just a bit behind the curve? I don't know.
Yet. The Conservative Party of Canada is going down that road right now and Ontario elected Doug Ford.
It made me realise how unstable the world order is. Not really directly related to Trump but during his watch China has thrown its weight around more lately making me realise what a huge threat China is.
Gave me a new sense of how little is needed to break a democracy down.
I used to be a big believer in the power of the Internet to spread knowledge and equality and democratise the world.
I now know better.
I have had some faith in the US restored at the last election. They got their second brexit referendum and they passed. I am confident demographics will continue to roll back the trumpies. But its going to be a hard slog, and can the country really be called a democracy when you've a choice of the "the political party" or "the cult"?
On the other hand were it not for corona trump might have held power.... People swallowing the lies of the economy doing well. I've ran into some of them in the real world and it really is quite disturbing....
The UK and US in tandem have really made me come around to seeing the shittiness of limited democracy.
Quote from: Tyr on January 10, 2021, 05:44:44 PM
The UK and US in tandem have really made me come around to seeing the shittiness of limited democracy.
I'll bite.
It has made me less cynical and more committed to my principles - that the rule of law matters, that belief in objective truth and the scientific method matters, and upholding these ideals is worth fighting for.
To my mind, the most corrosive thing in a democracy is the attitude that all politicians are the same, voting doesn't matter, and there is no point in holding politicians accountable for lies because they all lie anyway. The fall of the Republicans to Trump shows where this leads: 'the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity'. Apathy leads to rule by those able to summon up 'passionate conviction', and if these people care noting for truth and nothing for the rule of law, there is no dealing or compromising with them.
Reasonable people can disagree, and that is okay. What is not okay is people who do not reason.
Quote from: Tyr on January 10, 2021, 05:44:44 PM
I used to be a big believer in the power of the Internet to spread knowledge and equality and democratise the world.
I now know better.
That's a good point. The democratic web, web 2.0 is a mistake.
I thought Western democracy was much more resilient.
It's amazing how much Putin has achieved with a comparatively minute investment. His core muscles must be terribly sore from laughing maniacally for the past week.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 10, 2021, 03:36:39 PM
Yet. The Conservative Party of Canada is going down that road right now and Ontario elected Doug Ford.
I know Douggie is in the same mold as Trump and Johnson, but he doesn't seem quite as egregious from the things I hear. And I don't see him undermining institutions in the same way either. But I could be missing things, I have no doubt. I'm far from Ontario.
Quote from: Threviel on January 10, 2021, 04:23:12 PM
It made me realise how unstable the world order is. Not really directly related to Trump but during his watch China has thrown its weight around more lately making me realise what a huge threat China is.
Gave me a new sense of how little is needed to break a democracy down.
Oh yeah, I've completely soured on the Chinese state in the last five years or so (basically due to Xi). That doesn't have anything to do with Trump, though.
Xi could easily be worse than Trump in the long run :mad:
Really bad news for China and pretty shitty for the rest of us too.
I never thought I would long for the days of Jiang Zemin.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 10, 2021, 07:27:29 PM
Xi could easily be worse than Trump in the long run :mad:
Really bad news for China and pretty shitty for the rest of us too.
Agreed. Xi's another one like Trump who's a shitty combination of insecure and not very bright at all.
I'm just far more deeply cynical. Now I think the lunatics really can take over the asylum.
Quote from: Jacob on January 10, 2021, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 10, 2021, 03:36:39 PM
Yet. The Conservative Party of Canada is going down that road right now and Ontario elected Doug Ford.
I know Douggie is in the same mold as Trump and Johnson, but he doesn't seem quite as egregious from the things I hear. And I don't see him undermining institutions in the same way either. But I could be missing things, I have no doubt. I'm far from Ontario.
When he was elected I thought he'd be Canada's trump. But as time wen on he's more bush if anything. Dumb with a mean streak, but ultimately affable and with at least some sense of his public responsibility. He took covid seriously and listened to the people that are more knowledgeable then himself, for example. So he seems to be able to take advice, something trump and Boris lack.
Quote from: HVC on January 10, 2021, 08:04:22 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 10, 2021, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 10, 2021, 03:36:39 PM
Yet. The Conservative Party of Canada is going down that road right now and Ontario elected Doug Ford.
I know Douggie is in the same mold as Trump and Johnson, but he doesn't seem quite as egregious from the things I hear. And I don't see him undermining institutions in the same way either. But I could be missing things, I have no doubt. I'm far from Ontario.
When he was elected I thought he'd be Canada's trump. But as time wen on he's more bush if anything. Dumb with a mean streak, but ultimately affable and with at least some sense of his public responsibility. He took covid seriously and listened to the people that are more knowledgeable then himself, for example. So he seems to be able to take advice, something trump and Boris lack.
Agreed - I thought we were in for serious populist nastiness. Though his dismantling of social institutions was and is ill-judged. We need more 'socialism' when dealing with a pandemic, not less!
I was pretty happy when he called out the anti-maskers as idiots, though.
I learned that my neighbors are my enemies.
Quote from: Valmy on January 10, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I never thought I would long for the days of Jiang Zemin.
Or Huge-in-Toe.
No. I remain convinced that I must refrain from participating in politics and leave all decisions to the politicians. Despite Trump's appalling behaviour.
I am shocked that over 70m people still vote for this guy, though.
Quote from: Malthus on January 10, 2021, 08:12:26 PM
Agreed - I thought we were in for serious populist nastiness. Though his dismantling of social institutions was and is ill-judged. We need more 'socialism' when dealing with a pandemic, not less!
I was pretty happy when he called out the anti-maskers as idiots, though.
I think Ford is taking more advice from Bill Davis these days than Mike Harris.
Today Harris is chair of a company that runs for-profit retirement homes, and Ford is desperately trying to lower the covid body count in that sector.
I think I've listened to more Run The Jewels these past few years than I would have if Trump wasn't elected.
More seriously my "don't vote Republican, re-evaluate next year" has changed to "don't vote Republican until the last of the Trumpists are out of the party."
I no longer dismiss Canadian right wing lunes as harmless idiots.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2021, 11:09:13 AM
I no longer dismiss Canadian right wing lunes as harmless idiots.
Just as good since Erin O'toole is giving the White Supremacists exclusive interviews.
https://twitter.com/DanielMinden/status/1348657716449996800?s=20
Apparently, Ezra lied & he's just got a PR person to answer a bunch of questions in an email.
Levant is a good example of what I am talking about.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 11, 2021, 11:14:20 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2021, 11:09:13 AM
I no longer dismiss Canadian right wing lunes as harmless idiots.
Just as good since Erin O'toole is giving the White Supremacists exclusive interviews.
https://twitter.com/DanielMinden/status/1348657716449996800?s=20
According to someone on that thread, there was no interview with O'Toole - Rebel media simply sent some emails to Conservative staffers, and cobbled the replies into an "interview".
From someone named Justin Ling:
QuoteThe Rebel is playing you. O'Toole did not do an interview.
The Conservative leader's office responded to a series of questions via email, and Levant published it to make look like an interview, pretending O'Toole wrote the answers himself.
The Rebel is ginning up publicity.
Not sure whether this is true or not.
Quote from: chipwich on January 10, 2021, 08:26:21 PM
I learned that my neighbors are my enemies.
Thank God my neighbors haven't learned this yet.
Quote from: Iormlund on January 10, 2021, 06:33:26 PM
I thought Western democracy was much more resilient.
It's amazing how much Putin has achieved with a comparatively minute investment. His core muscles must be terribly sore from laughing maniacally for the past week.
The situation is hardly as bad as during the late 20s and 30s of last century, when democracy was also under massive assault. Doesn't mean it won't get worse of course before it gets better. Assuming it will get better, cause it's not a given. Demographics maybe working against us.
But yeah: Putin and co have achieved a lot, and the world will be worse for it, but our own politicians aren't free of blame either.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 10, 2021, 07:27:29 PM
Xi could easily be worse than Trump in the long run :mad:
already is: Xi's running a state with real concentration camps and is engaged in what is de facto genocide against at least two nations.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 11, 2021, 01:01:02 PM
already is: Xi's running a state with real concentration camps and is engaged in what is de facto genocide against at least two nations.
Yes. But that was already kind of par for the course for Mao's regime back in the 1970s when we started trying to be China's buddy. We thought that we would moderate that over time, but clearly that was nonsense as Xi clearly demonstrates.
Untangling ourselves from China should be the West's #1 political and economic objective. I fear our businesses and politicians in the US are too far down the road of cooperation with entangled business interests to even want to start. I have no reason to think it is much better in the Europe and if the US and Europe fail to do so nobody is going to care what the minor western countries like Canada or Australia do.
Not really, I haven't been surprised by anything he's done since inauguration. I was a little surprised at how many fell in line or treated him as politics as usual.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 11, 2021, 01:01:02 PM
already is: Xi's running a state with real concentration camps and is engaged in what is de facto genocide against at least two nations.
Yes. But that was already kind of par for the course for Mao's regime back in the 1970s when we started trying to be China's buddy. We thought that we would moderate that over time, but clearly that was nonsense as Xi clearly demonstrates.
Untangling ourselves from China should be the West's #1 political and economic objective. I fear our businesses and politicians in the US are too far down the road of cooperation with entangled business interests to even want to start. I have no reason to think it is much better in the Europe and if the US and Europe fail to do so nobody is going to care what the minor western countries like Canada or Australia do.
I don't think where China is now was inevitable so as to say that early efforts were nonsense.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2021, 05:03:19 PM
I don't think where China is now was inevitable so as to say that early efforts were nonsense.
Yeah sorry. I did not mean to imply that. Just that China in its current condition is not moderate-able. Our plan did not work. Maybe that will change in the future and I don't think that was necessarily true in the past.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2021, 05:03:19 PM
I don't think where China is now was inevitable so as to say that early efforts were nonsense.
Yeah sorry. I did not mean to imply that. Just that China in its current condition is not moderate-able. Our plan did not work. Maybe that will change in the future and I don't think that was necessarily true in the past.
I agree with that.
Quote from: Maximus on January 11, 2021, 05:00:16 PM
Not really, I haven't been surprised by anything he's done since inauguration. I was a little surprised at how many fell in line or treated him as politics as usual.
Americans always want to give somebody a chance.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2021, 05:03:19 PM
I don't think where China is now was inevitable so as to say that early efforts were nonsense.
Yeah. A Chinese friend (well off, left the country because he disliked the CCP bullshit, has grown to despise Xi) said: "It's like they drove right up to the gates of heaven and instead of going in, they turned around and drove away."
Both inside and outside China there was a real belief and real hope that China and the rest of the world could've found a good way to co-exist and mutually prosper. I think Xi and his faction fucked that up fairly solidly.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:05:41 PM
Americans always want to give somebody a chance.
I don't think I could disagree more. Unless you were being ironic, in which case I apologize.
Quote from: Maximus on January 11, 2021, 05:10:47 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:05:41 PM
Americans always want to give somebody a chance.
I don't think I could disagree more. Unless you were being ironic, in which case I apologize.
Ok I get it. There are many Americans who often want to give somebody a chance.
Our system is pretty draconian, I don't think our people are...generally.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:11:55 PM
Our system is pretty draconian, I don't think our people are...generally.
:yeahright: I'm going to forward that to your employer and ask them whether they really want someone who understands Americans so poorly to be employed by them.
I see a bunch of people projecting.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:11:55 PM
Our system is pretty draconian, I don't think our people are...generally.
Ask your African-American colleagues, just to confirm.
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 11, 2021, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:11:55 PM
Our system is pretty draconian, I don't think our people are...generally.
Ask your African-American colleagues, just to confirm.
:hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:05:41 PM
Quote from: Maximus on January 11, 2021, 05:00:16 PM
Not really, I haven't been surprised by anything he's done since inauguration. I was a little surprised at how many fell in line or treated him as politics as usual.
Americans always want to give somebody a chance.
I think it's revealed the deep bias we all have for normalcy (this isn't just an American thing) - the desire to organise and understand even the new and disruptive through what we know and have experienced. It's a helpful bias if you are the new and disruptive.
I'm wondering/hopeful that while social media is doing the right thing now, it'll build momentum for lawmakers to do something to reign in their outsized influence on society.
Moved from moderate democrat to FDR style new democrat favorable to the Sanders/Warren wing of the party.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 12, 2021, 07:03:12 AM
Moved from moderate democrat to FDR style new democrat favorable to the Sanders/Warren wing of the party.
And to think you used to be a neocon during the Bush era... :P
Anyone know C4's politics these days?
Concurrently with Trump, Bush and all this neo-conservative movement there's been a similar development in Sweden. Our old Nazi party branded itself as conservative and has grown from <1% to 20ish % stable. My old conservative/liberal party went social liberal, gained power for 8 years and then with the loss took a sharp turn right and is now a new style conservative party going on about harsher punishments and lower taxes wanting to rule in coalition with the old Nazi's and the Christian fundamentalist party.
The other rightist parties have either gone into irrelevance or gone full out retard libertarian.
The Social Democrats on the other hand won the 2014 election and have been ruling somewhat competently since then.
Myself, I'm an old style social liberal or sometimes conservative. I have nowhere to turn. And with GOP and Trump I've come to realise that I should perhaps not go for blind party loyalty and instead vote for the responsible, somewhat misruling Social Democrats rather than the Conservatives trying to rule together with the old Nazis. :cry:
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 11, 2021, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2021, 05:11:55 PM
Our system is pretty draconian, I don't think our people are...generally.
Ask your African-American colleagues, just to confirm.
I mean African Americans voted for Trump at a rate larger than other Republicans in the past so clearly some of them decided to treat him as just another candidate to vote for.
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 10, 2021, 01:00:33 PM
I asked the question before. I am asking again, as we near the end of the Trump presidency.
I seem to be much more centrist than I was.
But I've just been basically told by my best friend that weaks like me do not deserve the freedom to live if it means he's forbidden from seeing his girlfriend after 20:00. That might have changed my perspectives too.
Quote from: viper37 on January 12, 2021, 08:23:52 PM
But I've just been basically told by my best friend that weaks like me do not deserve the freedom to live if it means he's forbidden from seeing his girlfriend after 20:00. That might have changed my perspectives too.
Huh?
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2021, 08:30:06 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 12, 2021, 08:23:52 PM
But I've just been basically told by my best friend that weaks like me do not deserve the freedom to live if it means he's forbidden from seeing his girlfriend after 20:00. That might have changed my perspectives too.
Huh?
Viper's friend is an anti-masker who thinks that he should be able to see his girlfriend when he chooses during the pandemic, and if Viper is a weakling who dies from that well that's just too bad.
(at least that's my read)
There is a curfew now in Quebec. We are not supposed to go out of the house after 8 PM.