https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/02/17/english-pronunciation-poem/ (https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/02/17/english-pronunciation-poem/)
Quote
If you can pronounce correctly every word in this poem, you will be speaking English better than 90% of the native English speakers in the worldAfter trying the verses, a Frenchman said he'd prefer six months of hard labour to reading six lines aloud, and we'll be honest with you, we struggled with parts of it.
I councur with that part :P Here is the poem:
Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Fe0ffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation (think of Psyche!)
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!
I don't know how to pronounce Melpomene. There could be more.
There are likely a few that I would miss, but they seemed mostly familiar.
Better polish my Polish 'cause english is hard.
Quote from: The Brain on August 23, 2020, 03:26:35 PM
There are likely a few that I would miss, but they seemed mostly familiar.
taken individually, I can get most of them, but trying to read it as a continuous poem, without making mistakes, that I found to be hard.
I was maybe 10 lines in before I realized the point the poem was trying to make. :lol:
Like Yi, Melpomene is the only one I stumbled on.
Quote from: merithyn on August 23, 2020, 05:04:25 PM
I was maybe 10 lines in before I realized the point the poem was trying to make. :lol:
Like Yi, Melpomene is the only one I stumbled on.
That is a tragedy.
How proficient are you english? (native speakers welcome!)
Piss poor. :bowler:
I say all those words properly. It's other people who are wrong.
Quote from: PDH on August 23, 2020, 06:29:11 PM
Quote from: merithyn on August 23, 2020, 05:04:25 PM
I was maybe 10 lines in before I realized the point the poem was trying to make. :lol:
Like Yi, Melpomene is the only one I stumbled on.
That is a tragedy.
The words just... are. :blush:
I have problems with poems. Through childhood years of reading Tolkein, the Red Wall series, etc... I've developed a habit of my eyes glazing over and skipping ahead whenever I see slightly indented text going on for lines. Poems are hard..
Anyway.
Pronounced correctly according to which rules?
How do I know I've read a word wrong? - surely it I think something is correct that is the one I shall use.
RP, obviously. :smarty:
Geordies trying to read it could be funny to hear though.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 23, 2020, 03:20:54 PM
I don't know how to pronounce Melpomene. There could be more.
Rule of thumb for Greek names IIRC: emphasis on third-last syllable (PO), and no silent syllables, with the last one long-ish, so the common English pronounciation would be something like Mel-PO-mi-nee
Quote from: Tyr on August 24, 2020, 04:41:06 AM
Anyway.
Pronounced correctly according to which rules?
How do I know I've read a word wrong? - surely it I think something is correct that is the one I shall use.
While I agree there is a bit of a hierarchy of pronunciations that using language such as 'correct' suggests, I think there are still something things that can widely be considered incorrect.
Like pronouncing fruit like 'frew-it' or Wednesday like 'wed-ness-day'
Quote from: Syt on August 24, 2020, 05:15:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 23, 2020, 03:20:54 PM
I don't know how to pronounce Melpomene. There could be more.
Rule of thumb for Greek names IIRC: emphasis on third-last syllable (PO), and no silent syllables, with the last one long-ish, so the common English pronounciation would be something like Mel-PO-mi-nee
English Wiki disagrees partially: (/mɛlˈpɒmɪniː/
Probably easier to pronounce it in Ancient Greek:
Ancient Greek: Μελπομένη, romanized: Melpoménē
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melpomene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melpomene)
Where did I go wrong? I didn't indicate that PO was an open o (more like a short "paw"), but that's it :unsure:
I agree that the English pronunciation of Greek/Roman names often throws me off, the German way is "pronounce what you see". :D
I don't know how english pronounces some of the words. Like doctrine, is it the french way or something else?
Quote from: Syt on August 24, 2020, 06:04:27 AM
Where did I go wrong? I didn't indicate that PO was an open o (more like a short "paw"), but that's it :unsure:
I agree that the English pronunciation of Greek/Roman names often throws me off, the German way is "pronounce what you see". :D
the -mi-nee part is ambiguous (I vs ee as i:/ or short )
Even German is not so clear, given the choice to pronounce y as ü or i (ee). :P
Problem started in Ancient Greek, its evolution and its romanisations cf. oi/oe giving way to ö in German (now in French as well :() or e (eh).
Lots of H in Greek were silent (those with a soft breathing) I don't think German keeps the distinction.
Quote from: Syt on August 24, 2020, 05:15:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 23, 2020, 03:20:54 PM
I don't know how to pronounce Melpomene. There could be more.
Rule of thumb for Greek names IIRC: emphasis on third-last syllable (PO), and no silent syllables, with the last one long-ish, so the common English pronounciation would be something like Mel-PO-mi-nee
Yeah when I tried to say it that's what I went for naturally. And mi as a short i - like igloo - not mee. A bit like Gethsemene, but not like ecumenical (-meh-).
QuoteWhile I agree there is a bit of a hierarchy of pronunciations that using language such as 'correct' suggests, I think there are still something things that can widely be considered incorrect.
Agreed. I don't really think there's a "right" way to say things, I think there's probably some "wrong" ways.
As long as I say everything with a thick Ozark accent it all works out.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 06:06:18 AM
I don't know how english pronounces some of the words. Like doctrine, is it the french way or something else?
DOCK-trin. Similar, but not quite the same as the French.
Quote from: Habbaku on August 24, 2020, 10:50:33 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 06:06:18 AM
I don't know how english pronounces some of the words. Like doctrine, is it the french way or something else?
DOCK-trin. Similar, but not quite the same as the French.
Oh dear lord, I need to get out more.
I read GF's question as, "So, like, is there a doctrine, like the French way or something else?" meaning, is there a bible on the English language like there is the French language? I obviously did not read it as intended, which was "Is the word doctrine pronounced in English like it is in French, or is there another way to say it?"
:blush:
Quote from: Habbaku on August 24, 2020, 10:50:33 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 06:06:18 AM
I don't know how english pronounces some of the words. Like doctrine, is it the french way or something else?
DOCK-trin. Similar, but not quite the same as the French.
And yet, dock-trine-al :lol:
I really feel for anyone choosing to learn English :(
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 24, 2020, 10:50:33 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 06:06:18 AM
I don't know how english pronounces some of the words. Like doctrine, is it the french way or something else?
DOCK-trin. Similar, but not quite the same as the French.
And yet, dock-trine-al :lol:
I really feel for anyone choosing to learn English :(
Yeah, we can probably blame the Brits for why it's Common Language of the world right now, but it's probably one of the hardest for non-native speakers to learn. Poor planning and all that. :P
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
And yet, dock-trine-al :lol:
I really feel for anyone choosing to learn English :(
I've always heard it pronounced DOCK-trin-al.
Quote from: Habbaku on August 24, 2020, 10:50:33 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 06:06:18 AM
I don't know how english pronounces some of the words. Like doctrine, is it the french way or something else?
DOCK-trin. Similar, but not quite the same as the French.
Ending like latrine? The I sound is the one I am unsure of here.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 12:20:10 PM
Ending like latrine? The I sound is the one I am unsure of here.
No. Latrine is more like la-treen. Doctrine is doc-trin (short i, not long e).
Just pronounce it like it sounds. Jesus.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 12:22:39 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 12:20:10 PM
Ending like latrine? The I sound is the one I am unsure of here.
No. Latrine is more like la-treen. Doctrine is doc-trin (short i, not long e).
Thank you.
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 12:22:39 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 12:20:10 PM
Ending like latrine? The I sound is the one I am unsure of here.
No. Latrine is more like la-treen. Doctrine is doc-trin (short i, not long e).
I've heard from both.
Is it not a case like schedule?
Quote from: Tyr on August 24, 2020, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 24, 2020, 12:22:39 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2020, 12:20:10 PM
Ending like latrine? The I sound is the one I am unsure of here.
No. Latrine is more like la-treen. Doctrine is doc-trin (short i, not long e).
I've heard from both.
Is it not a case like schedule?
I've never heard doctrine said like latrine. Not to say it's wrong, I've just never heard it.
At 1st glance, that's how I would pronounce both.
Quote from: Tyr on August 24, 2020, 06:15:16 PM
I've heard from both.
Is it not a case like schedule?
Maybe (I'm a shed-ule person not sked-ule).
I'm aware there are words that I've picked up pronunciations of that are apparently American not English and I have no idea how or why. Process with a short o instead of a long o, I think is an example.
It often seems that my Brit colleague, with whom I work the closest with (he is from Essex), and I, don't pronounce anything the same. :P
The example that comes most to mind is the word "guard". I say the usual American way with the "r" stressed like a pirate "g-arr-d". For him, it will be ridiculously stressed on the "a", as in "g-AWD-rd")...with the "r" hardly heard at all. Almost like "god" but stressing "o" to an extreme level...and a bit of a flourish.