In case anyone wants to continue the discussion.
I think it's on a scale. Some people and places are more Latino than others. Belize has some Latino qualities but just misses the cutoff. Chile isn't terribly Latino but gets in by virtue of language and geography. The epicenters of Latino-ness are the Spanish Main (Venezuela and Colombia) and the River Plate (Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Argentina). Everybody dancing up a storm, speaking their language, all that beautiful corruption and bad government. The world capital of Latino is Miami.
I'll stand by my definition that Latinos are people from Latin America who live in the US.
That's all nice but the real question is this: Are you Latino if you speak Ladino?
No, you're Jewish. :sleep:
You could be a Latino Jew though. :hmm:
I met a Mexican Jew at Georgetown my freshman year. Always wore a dress shirt, slacks, and dress shoes to class. Always carried a brief case too.
A lot of Jews settled Mexico back in the day. I think they have mostly been'fully integrated' by now though, unlike the Mennonites who settled there and still have distinct communities.
Louis CK's father is (was?) a Mexican jew of Hungarian origin, in fact the CK is a portmanteau of his real surname, Szekely.
So, where do Spaniards fit in the Latino/Hispanic terminology? :P
Quote from: The Larch on February 24, 2020, 07:27:20 PM
So, where do Spaniards fit in the Latino/Hispanic terminology? :P
To me, not at all. To me, Latino starts with Latin America. It's a precondition.
My understanding is anybody who is originally from Mexico and south of Mexico, and speaks Spanish. And I mean recent centuries, not pre-Spain.
Burrito
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 24, 2020, 07:33:32 PM
To me, not at all. To me, Latino starts with Latin America. It's a precondition.
How do you feel about Mexicans of purely Spanish descent? :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2020, 09:15:13 PM
How do you feel about Mexicans of purely Spanish descent? :hmm:
5/10, 6/10, somewhere in there. I'd like at least some Indian blood but you can't have everything.
Quote from: 11B4V on February 24, 2020, 08:11:06 PM
Burrito
Ahh yes Burritos was my first impression of Latinos when I stayed in Berkeley for a few months. Ever since I first tasted a Burrito, I thought Latinos is a wonderful addition to the world.
What about Dominicans? Are they Latino?
Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2020, 09:24:20 PM
What about Dominicans? Are they Latino?
I don't know Cal, what do you think? :)
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2020, 07:55:35 PM
My understanding is anybody who is originally from Mexico and south of Mexico, and speaks Spanish. And I mean recent centuries, not pre-Spain.
I think "Latino" includes Portuguese-speaking Brazilians. It probably also includes people from French Guiana, though they don't usually come to mind.
People from Belize, who speak English, are more debatable. And I give up when trying to think about Curacao.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 24, 2020, 09:28:52 PM
I don't know Cal, what do you think? :)
I think they are.
Quote from: Caliga on February 24, 2020, 09:24:20 PM
What about Dominicans? Are they Latino?
I would suppose some are. AFAIK, Catholic monastic orders don't much care about their members' ethnic backgrounds. :P
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2020, 09:23:12 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 24, 2020, 08:11:06 PM
Burrito
Ahh yes Burritos was my first impression of Latinos when I stayed in Berkeley for a few months. Ever since I first tasted a Burrito, I thought Latinos is a wonderful addition to the world.
Mexican food is awesome.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 24, 2020, 11:31:21 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2020, 09:23:12 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 24, 2020, 08:11:06 PM
Burrito
Ahh yes Burritos was my first impression of Latinos when I stayed in Berkeley for a few months. Ever since I first tasted a Burrito, I thought Latinos is a wonderful addition to the world.
Mexican food is awesome.
I agree, but it is very difficult to find decent Mexican food in HK. Cheesecake factory is the best we have.
On a related note, what is "Latinx"? It seems to currently be in vogue among the woke.
Gender neutral form.
How do you pronounce it? Latinks? Latin X? Latink?
Quote from: DGuller on February 25, 2020, 12:02:50 AM
How do you pronounce it? Latinks? Latin X? Latink?
middle one
Quote from: Monoriu on February 24, 2020, 11:41:02 PM
I agree, but it is very difficult to find decent Mexican food in HK. Cheesecake factory is the best we have.
I have discovered one (1) good taco place in London which has just opened and is excellent. It's a huge gap.
There's a decent vegan Mexican pub in Hackney (which is possibly the most Hackney thing) too. But aside from that it's very limited.
There's something like 135 different "races" rich Americans like to refer to as "latino". You can't just group everything from the Rio Grande to Punta Arenas together.
It's funny really that the distinction still exists in the US. In the UK the South / North European split just isn't seen as much of a thing anymore. All of Europe is considered white.
Or is it the large amount of mixing in Latin America part of the neo Latin-mess?
It definitely exists in London. There are a couple of Latin villages which are very much Latin American not Spanish - Elephant and Castle, Tottenham and a big Brazilian community in Stockwell/Kennington way. As I say I'd refer to those communities as Latino.
Quote from: Tyr on February 25, 2020, 02:32:31 AM
It's funny really that the distinction still exists in the US. In the UK the South / North European split just isn't seen as much of a thing anymore. All of Europe is considered white.
Or is it the large amount of mixing in Latin America part of the neo Latin-mess?
I think what you're doing is running the concept through your very parochial English filter and translating it as "wogs start at Calais." It's not a pejorative term.
:lol:
Man you have to have a bit of history to get that. "How is it a city if it doesn't have a cathedral???".
But for Tyr, it's actually going the other way. Twenty or thirty years ago, latinos were considered white and that was the category they would use on the census. It's only in recent years it's been split off.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 25, 2020, 01:14:05 AM
There's something like 135 different "races" rich Americans like to refer to as "latino". You can't just group everything from the Rio Grande to Punta Arenas together.
Sure you can. Anything in the Western Hemisphere south of the Rio Grande is Latin America; anything between Reykjavik and the Urals and north of the Mediterranean and Black Seas is Europe.
Bravo dps. Well played.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 03:01:46 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 25, 2020, 02:32:31 AM
It's funny really that the distinction still exists in the US. In the UK the South / North European split just isn't seen as much of a thing anymore. All of Europe is considered white.
Or is it the large amount of mixing in Latin America part of the neo Latin-mess?
I think what you're doing is running the concept through your very parochial English filter and translating it as "wogs start at Calais." It's not a pejorative term.
The American media certainly does not give this impression. There seems to be a huge amount of looking down on Latino people, not that dissimilar to the way ye olde European Whites would look down on Mediterranean people.
Quote from: Tyr on February 25, 2020, 04:08:18 AM
The American media certainly does not give this impression. There seems to be a huge amount of looking down on Latino people, not that dissimilar to the way ye olde European Whites would look down on Mediterranean people.
I would be sincerely fascinated to see an example of this.
Yeah, the thing about that is, most of the people in South America would be angry at you if you said they weren't white. It seems pretty ingrained there that the whiter, the better.
I think that varies widely in Latin America.
That sounds like a very Argentine/Uruguayan attitude (who most other Latin Americans think is pretty racist).
The socio-economic status of white elites is very ingrained and a result of history, but my understanding is that, for example in Brazil, there's a culture of taking a lot of pride in being a very racially mixed country. Similarly in Mexico there's a really stark difference between the people you see on TVs and the people you see on the street. The elite is white, but the culture is one of taking pride in Mexico's indigenous and, again, mixed heritage. I think it's similar in the Andes and Caribbean too.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 25, 2020, 04:11:51 AM
Yeah, the thing about that is, most of the people in South America would be angry at you if you said they weren't white. It seems pretty ingrained there that the whiter, the better.
It's strange because you think the most important part of Latino is the racial component whereas I think it's almost all about language, geography, and culture and race is a distant afterthought. Gloria Estefan is about as Latina as they come in my mind and she's about as creamy as they come. It's definitely not a way of saying non-white, therefore lesser in my eyes.
I've seen plenty of people on the street wearing Tshirts that say Yo Soy Latino. Plenty of university organizations that are Latino this or that.
When I filled the 2010 census form (I was still living in NYC), I remember they distinguished between "Hispanic", "Latino", and "Spanish". Those were not considered races, that was another part of the form (black, white, mixed race, pacific is etc...).
I also was registered as "Hispanic" with my uni (the clerk told me to do so), "white" was a separate option :lol:
I know it's supposed to track and help minorities, but the whole concept of registering my ethnicity was pretty weird.
One can be proud of being a thing whilst that thing is also seen to be something else and looked down on by others.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 04:18:00 AM
I think that varies widely in Latin America.
That sounds like a very Argentine/Uruguayan attitude (who most other Latin Americans think is pretty racist).
The socio-economic status of white elites is very ingrained and a result of history, but my understanding is that, for example in Brazil, there's a culture of taking a lot of pride in being a very racially mixed country. Similarly in Mexico there's a really stark difference between the people you see on TVs and the people you see on the street. The elite is white, but the culture is one of taking pride in Mexico's indigenous and, again, mixed heritage. I think it's similar in the Andes and Caribbean too.
Brazil seems a lot more complicated than that. It has a pretty dark history of encouraging white people to have kids with blacks in order to make better lighter kids et al.
The rainbow nation stuff is there but there's a lot of simmering black is poor and bad whilst the ruling elites are white stuff too.
It seems an interesting area to read up on if anyone ever comes across a good source.
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 04:38:00 AM
When I filled the 2010 census form (I was still living in NYC), I remember they distinguished between "Hispanic", "Latino", and "Spanish". Those were not considered races, that was another part of the form (black, white, mixed race, pacific is etc...).
I also was registered as "Hispanic" with my uni (the clerk told me to do so), "white" was a separate option :lol:
I know it's supposed to track and help minorities, but the whole concept of registering my ethnicity was pretty weird.
Do you all have options of "White" ethnicities?
The UK Census list:
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/ethnic-groups
"Gypsy or Irish Traveller"? :P
Yeah, how is that an *ethnicity?*
I just checked and indeed Spain doesn't track ethnicity of residents. The closest thing it asks is your nationality if you are foreign-born.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 04:47:51 AM
Yeah, how is that an *ethnicity?*
How do you define ethnicity?
Roma and traveller are both considered ethnicities (one of the most discriminated against) in the UK and Ireland.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 04:55:51 AM
How do you define ethnicity?
Roma and traveller are both considered ethnicities (one of the most discriminated against) in the UK and Ireland.
Genetics + language + culture. Mainland gypsies are descended from Indians. Irish Travelers are descended from Irish.
Do you define ethnic group as anyone who is discriminated against?
"Irish Traveller" specifically?
I'm really resisting the urge to post many Dubliners videos. :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 05:01:59 AM
Genetics + language + culture. Mainland gypsies are descended from Indians. Irish Travelers are descended from Irish.
They've got a separate language, different culture (not least because historically non-settled/itinerant) and there's now significant genetic differences with the Irish settled community (but they are of Irish ancestry and not linked to the Roma and also confirmed they diverged about 350 years ago).
QuoteDo you define ethnic group as anyone who is discriminated against?
No. But that's the benefit of monitoring it, so even if they weren't a separate ethnic group it may be worth having as a separate category.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 05:25:18 AM
They've got a separate language, different culture (not least because historically non-settled/itinerant) and there's now significant genetic differences with the Irish settled community (but they are of Irish ancestry and not linked to the Roma and also confirmed they diverged about 350 years ago).
I still think it's weird when they're both descended from the same stock and the real difference is a lifestyle choice. Like calling surf bums or skate punks an ethnic group.
Apropos of not much, I think I worked with an Irish Traveler at an office job in DC. Nothing conclusive, she just seemed oddly socialized and corrected me when I used the word gypsy, but it is fun to speculate about a Traveler jumping the rez and starting a new life in the New World.
Oh yeah, she also had a bit of facial hair.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
I still think it's weird when they're both descended from the same stock and the real difference is a lifestyle choice. Like calling surf bums or skate punks an ethnic group.
I guess, if you classify it as a lifestyle choice, then having a negative opinion about it is okay. Which would be awkward.
Plus, you can't claim special legal privileges to live in various antisocial ways.
A different view: what is a culture but a set of lifestyle choices?
Travellers have been a group which heavily shuns marriage with outsiders and all that sort of thing for several hundred years at least. Genetic evidence does show some drift from the standard Irish population. They aren't just Irish people who have decided to bum around for a bit.
Quote from: Tyr on February 25, 2020, 08:11:51 AM
Travellers have been a group which heavily shuns marriage with outsiders and all that sort of thing for several hundred years at least. Genetic evidence does show some drift from the standard Irish population. They aren't just Irish people who have decided to bum around for a bit.
Yeah. And my understanding is the main theory on their origin is that they were people who were either displaced, or chose not to settle, during the 17th century English/Scottish conquest and plantation of Ireland. So this isn't some new group.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 08:16:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 25, 2020, 08:11:51 AM
Travellers have been a group which heavily shuns marriage with outsiders and all that sort of thing for several hundred years at least. Genetic evidence does show some drift from the standard Irish population. They aren't just Irish people who have decided to bum around for a bit.
Yeah. And my understanding is the main theory on their origin is that they were people who were either displaced, or chose not to settle, during the 17th century English/Scottish conquest and plantation of Ireland. So this isn't some new group.
That's the most recent likely origin. The one I'd tend to prefer goes further back to the Norman conquest with pre Norman Irish society being generally far more pastoral and less settled. Though it seems likely the separation and drift took time to develop.
Most Spanish speaking immigrants to the US have native American ancestry to a greater or lesser degree (mexico and central American working classes). I think a lot of people in the US are unaware that a large number of people in latin America have either entirely or almost entirely European ancestry.
Quote from: DGuller on February 25, 2020, 12:02:50 AM
How do you pronounce it? Latinks? Latin X? Latink?
If you're really woke you pronounce it Latin Equis.
Quote from: Savonarola on February 25, 2020, 10:43:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on February 25, 2020, 12:02:50 AM
How do you pronounce it? Latinks? Latin X? Latink?
If you're really woke you pronounce it Latin Equis.
But not a Latin (Erasmus) pronunciation, makes sense though I first associated Latin Equis (marking the spot) with Equus.
Pretty damning if wiki is to be believed. Latinx sounds like the typical US Identity Politics jargon that should stay at most, US-only. Seems headed this way for now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx#Criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx#Criticism)
QuoteThe term Latinx has been criticized for being used almost exclusively in the United States and for being virtually non-existent in Spanish-speaking countries.[15] A 2016 HuffPost article stated, "Many opponents of the term have suggested that using an un-gendered noun like Latinx is disrespectful to the Spanish language and some have even called the term 'a blatant form of linguistic imperialism.'"[33][15] In a 2017 article for the Los Angeles Times, Daniel Hernandez wrote "The term is used mostly by an educated minority, largely in the U.S."[34]
Some refuse to use the term, as Latinx "doesn't roll off the tongue" in the Spanish language.[33]
Another argument against Latinx is that "it erases feminist movements in the 1970s" that fought for use of the word Latina to represent women.[24]
Hector Luis Alamo described the term as a "bulldozing of Spanish".[13] In a 2015 article for Latino Rebels, Alamo wrote: "If we dump Latino for Latinx because it offends some people, then we should go on dumping words forever since there will always be some people who find some words offensive.[35]
Nicole Trujillo-Pagán has argued that patriarchal bias is reproduced in ostensibly "gender neutral" language[36][37][38] and asserted, "Less clear in the debate (as it has developed since then) is how the replacement silences and erases long-standing struggles to recognize the significance of gender difference and sexual violence."[39]
The term Latinx was rejected in 2018 by the Royal Spanish Academy, the main authority on the Spanish language.[24][31]
Some disability rights activists have raised accessibility concerns with Latinx and its alternative Latin@ because they cannot be pronounced by screen readers used by the blind and visually impaired.[40]
Over here the form "latin@" would have been used instead, that was the cool thing back in the 00s. :P
Americans think it's dumb, too.
The new trend in politically correct Spanish is to use femenine plural forms to refer to groups of people. It's actually gramatically correct, if odd ("las [personas] latinas" = "latino [people]").
In French every person has always been feminine. Just shows how progressive they are -_-
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:15:10 AM
The new trend in politically correct Spanish is to use femenine plural forms to refer to groups of people. It's actually gramatically correct, if odd ("las [personas] latinas" = "latino [people]").
What about latines, then?
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:15:10 AM
The new trend in politically correct Spanish is to use femenine plural forms to refer to groups of people. It's actually gramatically correct, if odd ("las [personas] latinas" = "latino [people]").
What are the pronouns for a non-binary person in Spanish?
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:15:10 AM
The new trend in politically correct Spanish is to use femenine plural forms to refer to groups of people. It's actually gramatically correct, if odd ("las [personas] latinas" = "latino [people]").
What are the pronouns for a non-binary person in Spanish?
Ending on -e or -es.
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2020, 07:38:18 AM
Plus, you can't claim special legal privileges to live in various antisocial ways.
Like Hell I can't!
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:15:10 AM
The new trend in politically correct Spanish is to use femenine plural forms to refer to groups of people. It's actually gramatically correct, if odd ("las [personas] latinas" = "latino [people]").
What are the pronouns for a non-binary person in Spanish?
Grammatically those don't exist* and there's a zillion proposals none of which has gained enough traction. There's the @ that Larchie said (doesn't work in spoken language) the x thing (very weird in Spanish), and using -e as a neutral gender mark (probably the one that makes most sense and would fit better with the language).
Official position of the Spanish Royal Academy (which is made up of a bunch of old people) is that grammatical gender =/ actual gender and nothing should be changed.
*Well, it does, but it's very similar in most usages to masculine so it doesn't really work for non-binary purposes.
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:33:30 AM
Official position of the Spanish Royal Academy (which is made up of a bunch of old people) is that grammatical gender =/ actual gender and nothing should be changed.
How does that work for someone who identifies as non-binary (so they/them in English)? :mellow:
Though I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:33:30 AM
Official position of the Spanish Royal Academy (which is made up of a bunch of old people) is that grammatical gender =/ actual gender and nothing should be changed.
How does that work for someone who identifies as non-binary (so they/them in English)? :mellow:
Though I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
Well, I'll clarify. The official neutral pronoun for Spanish is "ello". But a) in most usages ends up being very similar to masculine b) it's supposed to be used on *things* not people, so it doesn't really work when your intention is to make non-binary people feel accepted. :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AMThough I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
It's an undue distraction from their most pressing concern, discussing which new words should be added to the dictionary each year, at least 10 years after they've been widely adopted by everybody else.
Quotethe x thing (very weird in Spanish)
Yeah I find the LatinX thing a little obnoxious since it seems like it is English speakers applying an English thing to Spanish since we have decided Spanish is too sexist or something. So we fixed Spanish for you! You are welcome Spanish speakers.
But hey if it gets widespread use I will use it. It makes it sound like everybody is related to Malcolm X.
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:41:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AMThough I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
It's an undue distraction from their most pressing concern, discussing which new words should be added to the dictionary each year, at least 10 years after they've been widely adopted by everybody else.
Sounds like recycled arguments against the Académie Française. :P
Given the last disastrous spelling reform in Portugal, I am more sympathetic to Language Academies now, since Portugal does not have one. It's not like Brazil could be the torch bearer.
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:38:37 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 25, 2020, 11:33:30 AM
Official position of the Spanish Royal Academy (which is made up of a bunch of old people) is that grammatical gender =/ actual gender and nothing should be changed.
How does that work for someone who identifies as non-binary (so they/them in English)? :mellow:
Though I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
Well, I'll clarify. The official neutral pronoun for Spanish is "ello". But a) in most usages ends up being very similar to masculine b) it's supposed to be used on *things* not people, so it doesn't really work when your intention is to make non-binary people feel accepted. :lol:
Hardly surprising, masculine and neutral were already close in Latin, only differing in the accusative, and neutral being about inanimate things originally, with many exceptions of course. Otherwise, it would not be fun.
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:00:33 AM
Over here the form "latin@" would have been used instead, that was the cool thing back in the 00s. :P
Latinarroba does not sound very flattering. :lol:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2020, 11:51:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:41:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AMThough I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
It's an undue distraction from their most pressing concern, discussing which new words should be added to the dictionary each year, at least 10 years after they've been widely adopted by everybody else.
Sounds like recycled arguments against the Académie Française. :P
Given the last disastrous spelling reform in Portugal, I am more sympathetic to Language Academies now, since Portugal does not have one. It's not like Brazil could be the torch bearer.
You can be admitted as guests at the Real Academia Galega. :P
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2020, 11:54:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:00:33 AM
Over here the form "latin@" would have been used instead, that was the cool thing back in the 00s. :P
Latinarroba does not sound very flattering. :lol:
It only really works in writing, same as latinx.
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:56:58 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2020, 11:51:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:41:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AMThough I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
It's an undue distraction from their most pressing concern, discussing which new words should be added to the dictionary each year, at least 10 years after they've been widely adopted by everybody else.
Sounds like recycled arguments against the Académie Française. :P
Given the last disastrous spelling reform in Portugal, I am more sympathetic to Language Academies now, since Portugal does not have one. It's not like Brazil could be the torch bearer.
You can be admitted as guests at the Real Academia Galega. :P
Wrong academy, surely you meant this one:
https://academiagalega.org (https://academiagalega.org) :P
Academia Galega da Lingua Portuguesa. ;)
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2020, 11:54:56 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:00:33 AM
Over here the form "latin@" would have been used instead, that was the cool thing back in the 00s. :P
Latinarroba does not sound very flattering. :lol:
It only really works in writing, same as latinx.
I know, j/k. Identity Politics activists in France came up with similarly unpronounceable ideas.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2020, 12:01:47 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:56:58 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 25, 2020, 11:51:06 AM
Quote from: The Larch on February 25, 2020, 11:41:11 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 11:35:27 AMThough I am shocked, shocked to discover that the members of the Spanish Royal Academy might be conservative on issues of language and grammar :lol:
It's an undue distraction from their most pressing concern, discussing which new words should be added to the dictionary each year, at least 10 years after they've been widely adopted by everybody else.
Sounds like recycled arguments against the Académie Française. :P
Given the last disastrous spelling reform in Portugal, I am more sympathetic to Language Academies now, since Portugal does not have one. It's not like Brazil could be the torch bearer.
You can be admitted as guests at the Real Academia Galega. :P
Wrong academy, surely you meant this one:
https://academiagalega.org (https://academiagalega.org) :P
Didn't even know that one existed.
I don't think you need to be loud to be Latino.
But it helps.
FWIW the Census does tracks Hispanic status as its own thing.
So you fill out a section on race/ethnicity, and would select Black, White, or the 5-6 other ethnicities they list. Then there's another box asking if you identify as Hispanic. You often see these phrases thrown around a lot when talking about population demographics.
Most pundits for example say America is no longer going to be a majority white nation because they're talking about the "non-Hispanic White" population. If you actually include Hispanics who identify as White, something like 72% of Americans self-identify as White as of the last census. Even more surprising to many is that number has been estimated to have risen to 73%, again because of the large proportion of White Hispanics who absolutely view themselves as racially white but culturally Hispanic. My understanding is black Hispanics come from basically the slave populations in what was Spain's overseas Empire. There's a lot of black Cubans for example and when they emigrate to the United States they would fill out the census "black" and "Hispanic."
We then also ask about ancestry groups which there's a massive list of those. One of the funnier things is among white Americans German has been the most reported ancestry group for ages, but most demographers are pretty sure the real answer is "English" as the most common ancestry group for white Americans. But such a weird shift in American thinking happened over the 19th century that the vast majority of English ancestry Americans basically just identify as "American" ancestry. The thing is if your last name ends in a vowel or is a quasi-Anglicized German (your Muellers and such) name you can hang your hat on being a little different, so those people select German or Italian ancestry (admittedly Italian-Americans are a little more likely to have met in their lifetimes a grandparent or great-grandparent that was from the old country), but if your last name is Baker or Smith or Reynolds there's no real human interest there, so you're just "American."
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 25, 2020, 04:18:00 AM
I think that varies widely in Latin America.
That sounds like a very Argentine/Uruguayan attitude (who most other Latin Americans think is pretty racist).
The socio-economic status of white elites is very ingrained and a result of history, but my understanding is that, for example in Brazil, there's a culture of taking a lot of pride in being a very racially mixed country. Similarly in Mexico there's a really stark difference between the people you see on TVs and the people you see on the street. The elite is white, but the culture is one of taking pride in Mexico's indigenous and, again, mixed heritage. I think it's similar in the Andes and Caribbean too.
From time to time my Venezuelan gf would say something about the blackness/nativeness of a group, which was puzzling to me, since she is clearly of mixed ancestry (if relatively light).
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2020, 07:38:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
I still think it's weird when they're both descended from the same stock and the real difference is a lifestyle choice. Like calling surf bums or skate punks an ethnic group.
I guess, if you classify it as a lifestyle choice, then having a negative opinion about it is okay. Which would be awkward.
Plus, you can't claim special legal privileges to live in various antisocial ways.
Pretty sure that in the US, you have the legal right to be a surf bum or skater punk if you want, no special privileges necessary.
Though legalities aside, I'm not sure how practical it would be to be a surf bum in the UK.
Quote from: dps on February 25, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2020, 07:38:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
I still think it's weird when they're both descended from the same stock and the real difference is a lifestyle choice. Like calling surf bums or skate punks an ethnic group.
I guess, if you classify it as a lifestyle choice, then having a negative opinion about it is okay. Which would be awkward.
Plus, you can't claim special legal privileges to live in various antisocial ways.
Pretty sure that in the US, you have the legal right to be a surf bum or skater punk if you want, no special privileges necessary.
Though legalities aside, I'm not sure how practical it would be to be a surf bum in the UK.
The thing is though that Travelers get special provisions like allowed to live like bums in their caravan camps.
Quote from: Tamas on February 26, 2020, 08:02:01 AM
Quote from: dps on February 25, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2020, 07:38:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
I still think it's weird when they're both descended from the same stock and the real difference is a lifestyle choice. Like calling surf bums or skate punks an ethnic group.
I guess, if you classify it as a lifestyle choice, then having a negative opinion about it is okay. Which would be awkward.
Plus, you can't claim special legal privileges to live in various antisocial ways.
Pretty sure that in the US, you have the legal right to be a surf bum or skater punk if you want, no special privileges necessary.
Though legalities aside, I'm not sure how practical it would be to be a surf bum in the UK.
The thing is though that Travelers get special provisions like allowed to live like bums in their caravan camps.
What privileges, exactly? All kidding aside, legit question that I don't know the answer to.
Quote from: dps on February 26, 2020, 08:24:15 AM
Quote from: Tamas on February 26, 2020, 08:02:01 AM
Quote from: dps on February 25, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
Quote from: Tamas on February 25, 2020, 07:38:18 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 25, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
I still think it's weird when they're both descended from the same stock and the real difference is a lifestyle choice. Like calling surf bums or skate punks an ethnic group.
I guess, if you classify it as a lifestyle choice, then having a negative opinion about it is okay. Which would be awkward.
Plus, you can't claim special legal privileges to live in various antisocial ways.
Pretty sure that in the US, you have the legal right to be a surf bum or skater punk if you want, no special privileges necessary.
Though legalities aside, I'm not sure how practical it would be to be a surf bum in the UK.
The thing is though that Travelers get special provisions like allowed to live like bums in their caravan camps.
What privileges, exactly? All kidding aside, legit question that I don't know the answer to.
I just remember reading how they can get permits to move around and settle temporarily with their nomadic caravans, but I have never looked up the details.
Just got my census letter in the mail, am responding online, thought y'all might be interested in the wording of the Latino page.
Is [Admiral Yi] of Latino, Hispanic, or Spanish origin?
[ ] No, not of Latino, Hispanic or Spanish origin.
[ ] Yes, Mexican, Mexican-American, Chicano.
[ ] Yes, Puerto Rican.
[ ] Yes, Cuban.
[ ] Yes, another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin.
Enter, for example Salvadorean, Guatemalan, etc.
Chicano?
Mexican of native heritage
Just the the old version of Mexican-American is my understanding. Don't know where you get native (as in Indian?) from.
[Admiral Yi] is definitely Italian, or some kind of Spanish.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2020, 04:52:49 PM
Just the the old version of Mexican-American is my understanding.
Is that the same as La Raza?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2020, 04:52:49 PM
Just the the old version of Mexican-American is my understanding. Don't know where you get native (as in Indian?) from.
That's more or less what I thought, that it was basically equivalent to Mexican - American, rather than its own thing.
I have this faint recollection that it was originally used to distinguish Mex-Ams born here from border jumpers. "Are you Mexican?" "No way, I'm Chicano."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2020, 03:23:18 PM
Just got my census letter in the mail, am responding online, thought y'all might be interested in the wording of the Latino page.
Is [Admiral Yi] of Latino, Hispanic, or Spanish origin?
[ ] No, not of Latino, Hispanic or Spanish origin.
[ ] Yes, Mexican, Mexican-American, Chicano.
[ ] Yes, Puerto Rican.
[ ] Yes, Cuban.
[ ] Yes, another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin.
Enter, for example Salvadorean, Guatemalan, etc.
So to go back to my original question - does Latino include someone from Spain?
Sounds like it, according to the US census.
According to the census bureau, Hispanic, Latino and Spanish are three different categories. :nerd:
Note the word "or."
It is true that the census bureau is implying Spaniards should eat lunch at the Latino table.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2020, 09:20:49 PM
According to the census bureau, Hispanic, Latino and Spanish are three different categories. :nerd:
Note the word "or."
It is true that the census bureau is implying Spaniards should eat lunch at the Latino table.
It's confusing - it seems to suggest they are three separate but interchangeable categories. :hmm:
I'm sure I've heard Americans referring to Latin Americans as Spanish in the past and getting confused about where that leaves real Spanish people. Or am I imagining?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2020, 09:20:49 PM
According to the census bureau, Hispanic, Latino and Spanish are three different categories. :nerd:
Note the word "or."
It is true that the census bureau is implying Spaniards should eat lunch at the Latino table.
My impression is that "Latino, Hispanic, or Spanish" is one single category that includes all three words for convenience, likely because the limits of the sum of the three are less uncertain than the limits of the individual words.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 18, 2020, 09:20:49 PM
According to the census bureau, Hispanic, Latino and Spanish are three different categories. :nerd:
Note the word "or."
It is true that the census bureau is implying Spaniards should eat lunch at the Latino table.
But not the Portuguese and the Brazilians. :hmm:
Would African Lusophones be counted as Black Hispanics?