Recently I've been thinking of John Brown and his violent but quixotic struggle to end slavery. Was he right to do it? I used to believe that violence is not the answer, it only begets more violence (which in this case was true), but he was also responding to violence. Slavery is violence. It's robbing someone every day of their life and not infrequently also involves assault, rape and even murder. So I've become undecided on the subject.
I think of it a bit by analogy: if you are walking down the street and see three men beating to death a fourth man, what do you do? Do you intervene or do you turn your head and walk away? Does the morality of your decision change if you are likely to be beaten up by the toughs due to intervention? What if you are carrying a gun and your intervention may very likely result in one of the men being killed?
I am unsure.
Police powers are also violence. If you say violence is justified when it is in response to violence, you've justified pretty much all political violence.
Political violence is justified when there is no democratic mechanism through which to effect change (including when that mechanism is so dysfunctional or compromised as to no longer represent a real alternative), or when the authorities are doing something grossly violative of human rights and urgent action is needed to stop it.
John Brown was entirely justified because he didn't live in a democracy and therefore couldn't effect change democratically. A successful servile war would have produced immense improvements in the South, and it was the duty of every human being to support it.
All politics is violence.
So I guess politics is never justified. :P
From an enlightenment perspective I guess it would be justified when the rights of people are being abused. But violence is a very dangerous genie to be let out of the bottle. There is probably some kind of Augustinian calculus that would have to be a factor there. It is hard to get too upset by things like what happened to Ceausescu in Romania because there was so little instability and death of innocent people that followed. But I guess then you start thinking about the uprising against Bashar Al-Assad. Was that a moral act? I don't know.
QuoteAll politics is violence.
Sure violence is a pretty usual aspect of politics but then it is a pretty usual aspect of most human interaction.
Political violence is never justified.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 07:13:55 PM
Political violence is never justified.
So...are you saying the Qing Dynasty should still be running China?
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 07:13:55 PM
Political violence is never justified.
So...are you saying the Qing Dynasty should still be running China?
How would they...? :hmm:
Quote from: The Brain on March 24, 2017, 07:19:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 07:13:55 PM
Political violence is never justified.
So...are you saying the Qing Dynasty should still be running China?
How would they...? :hmm:
I am sure Puyi could have kept the Dynasty going.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 07:13:55 PM
Political violence is never justified.
How else do you overthrow people who take pride in their utter lack of morals?
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 24, 2017, 08:14:56 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 07:13:55 PM
Political violence is never justified.
How else do you overthrow people who take pride in their utter lack of morals?
You don't. You run away :contract:
So when you said 'political violence is never justified' did you mean for everybody or just yourself?
Quote from: Razgovory on March 24, 2017, 05:55:50 PM
Recently I've been thinking of John Brown and his violent but quixotic struggle to end slavery. Was he right to do it? I used to believe that violence is not the answer, it only begets more violence (which in this case was true), but he was also responding to violence. Slavery is violence. It's robbing someone every day of their life and not infrequently also involves assault, rape and even murder. So I've become undecided on the subject.
We know what Languish believes on this subject. (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,5623.0.html)
46.7% believe he was right.
48.9% are a puppet of the Slave Power
4.4% a gutless and indecessive
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 08:29:06 PM
So when you said 'political violence is never justified' did you mean for everybody or just yourself?
It's Mono. His entire political philosophy is based on his own personal sense of comfort.
Yeah, I know we've had this discussion before.
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 24, 2017, 09:12:31 PM
It's Mono. His entire political philosophy is based on his own personal sense of comfort.
The Dao of La-Z-Boy
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2017, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 24, 2017, 09:12:31 PM
It's Mono. His entire political philosophy is based on his own personal sense of comfort.
The Dao of La-Z-Boy
Mono always seemed more of a Confucius fan. What with the whole meritocracy and heirarchy thing he had going on.
:punk:
https://youtu.be/0N_RO-jL-90
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 21, 1974, 07:55:39 PMA successful servile war would have produced immense improvements in the South, and it was the duty of every human being to support it.
Yes, with proper application and a little luck, they might have improved to the level of Haiti.
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 24, 2017, 10:09:04 PM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 21, 1974, 07:55:39 PMA successful servile war would have produced immense improvements in the South, and it was the duty of every human being to support it.
Yes, with proper application and a little luck, they might have improved to the level of Haiti.
Haiti itself would have improved if there'd been a political constituency in the US that had opposed the extraction of extortionate debt payments. Oh, the world that might have been.
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 08:29:06 PM
So when you said 'political violence is never justified' did you mean for everybody or just yourself?
Everybody except the state :bowler:
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 10:23:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 08:29:06 PM
So when you said 'political violence is never justified' did you mean for everybody or just yourself?
Everybody except the state :bowler:
Really? So if the state is doing something bad you propose a mass exodus? Interesting.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 10:23:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 08:29:06 PM
So when you said 'political violence is never justified' did you mean for everybody or just yourself?
Everybody except the state :bowler:
That's not a British attitude.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on March 24, 2017, 10:11:35 PM
Haiti itself would have improved if there'd been a political constituency in the US that had opposed the extraction of extortionate debt payments. Oh, the world that might have been.
Haiti didn't have to accept that deal. But in any case it was not like the country was just going great before they took that on.
Political violence is justified when it lets you take power successfully.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2017, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 24, 2017, 09:12:31 PM
It's Mono. His entire political philosophy is based on his own personal sense of comfort.
The Dao of La-Z-Boy
Or perhaps Lao-Zi Boy ?
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 24, 2017, 11:22:14 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2017, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on March 24, 2017, 09:12:31 PM
It's Mono. His entire political philosophy is based on his own personal sense of comfort.
The Dao of La-Z-Boy
Or perhaps Lao-Zi Boy ?
You are wise in the ways of the Far Least.
Pretty sure that Confucianism recognizes the legitimacy of political violence against the state in specific circumstances - i.e. when the state is unjust or illegitemate. Don't pin Mono's moral cowardice on Laozi.
Germans have a constitutional right to "resist" (same word that is used to describe Stauffenberg's attempt to kill Hitler) everybody who tries to abolish our constitutional order if there is no peaceful way.
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 10:55:03 PM
Really? So if the state is doing something bad you propose a mass exodus? Interesting.
People have migrated for millennia. I didn't invent the concept :lol:
Quote from: Jacob on March 24, 2017, 11:42:38 PM
Pretty sure that Confucianism recognizes the legitimacy of political violence against the state in specific circumstances - i.e. when the state is unjust or illegitemate.
we all recognize that. it's the part about unjust or illegitemate that we don't agree on.
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 10:55:03 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2017, 10:23:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 24, 2017, 08:29:06 PM
So when you said 'political violence is never justified' did you mean for everybody or just yourself?
Everybody except the state :bowler:
Really? So if the state is doing something bad you propose a mass exodus? Interesting.
Mono, just has to say that 100 more times to get an extra square inch added to his cubicle.