Poll
Question:
durkamos
Option 1: Citizen K
votes: 0
Option 2: Speesh, Spicy, I can't remember his real fake name
votes: 9
Option 3: KRonn
votes: 9
Option 4: Lettuce
votes: 6
Option 5: Write In
votes: 8
Durkieste Durkaron
I don't know what you're talking about. Elaborate.
voted write in
oh fuck i misread again :(
Definitely not lacroix
Martinus.
Cutt off one head, two more shall take its place.
Lettuce.
Quote from: celedhring on February 04, 2017, 04:22:05 AM
Cutt off one head, two more shall take its place.
That hasn't been true here.
Okay, just one more.
Ed Anger
Didn't even know that Citizen K was a Trump supporter.
Does it matter in the post-truth world?
Enough about this so-called banning.
There'll still be Trump supporter posters left when the forum loses the function to ban posters.
Lettuce is the only actual Trump supporter on that list I think.
Quote from: Valmy on February 04, 2017, 11:13:45 AM
Lettuce is the only actual Trump supporter on that list I think.
:lol:
Eddie Teach hasn't declared his allegiance, but he's been passive-aggressive about Trump criticism. He should probably go on the list just to be safe.
I like Eddie's posts. :)
Quote from: Camerus on February 04, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
I like Eddie's posts. :)
Eddie's okay. I don't agree with his politics, but he's a perfectly reasonable poster.
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2017, 11:27:14 AM
Eddie Teach hasn't declared his allegiance,
The opposite in fact.
I was for Bernie, then Hillary.
Of course it's going to be DerGoering.
As a federal worker, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump.
:lol:
Oh Lordy, the sword of Damocles is hangin' over me! :ph34r:
Quote from: FunkMonk on February 05, 2017, 12:44:38 PM
As a federal worker, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump.
As a second-class indentured federal contractor field hand, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump's ability to make every lazy fucking GS piss themselves into a complete panic as they realize that their filthy fucking institutionalized welfare world is about to get a massive cock in the ass called Reality.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 05, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on February 05, 2017, 12:44:38 PM
As a federal worker, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump.
As a second-class indentured federal contractor field hand, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump's ability to make every lazy fucking GS piss themselves into a complete panic as they realize that their filthy fucking institutionalized welfare world is about to get a massive cock in the ass called Reality.
LE/ES are waived. :blurgh:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 05, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on February 05, 2017, 12:44:38 PM
As a federal worker, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump.
As a second-class indentured federal contractor field hand, I would like to express my complete support and confidence in the administration of President Donald J Trump's ability to make every lazy fucking GS piss themselves into a complete panic as they realize that their filthy fucking institutionalized welfare world is about to get a massive cock in the ass called Reality.
President Donald J Trump is a blessing to all federal workers and contractors. He will fight for us.*
Quote from: 11B4V on February 05, 2017, 06:07:33 PM
LE/ES are waived. :blurgh:
For now.
Going to be funny as balls when your ass gets picked up out of that idyllic sylvan paradise and dropped in the middle of the desert to fight off Teh Bad Hombres.
Quote from: FunkMonk on February 05, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
President Donald J Trump is a blessing to all federal workers and contractors. He will fight for us.*
And your ass better get working on learning that Cyrillic keyboard,
tovarisch. Those spreadsheets you'll be given aren't going to translate themselves.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 05, 2017, 08:19:31 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on February 05, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
President Donald J Trump is a blessing to all federal workers and contractors. He will fight for us.*
And your ass better get working on learning that Cyrillic keyboard, tovarisch. Those spreadsheets you'll be given aren't going to translate themselves.
Already started :yeah:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 05, 2017, 07:56:56 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 05, 2017, 06:07:33 PM
LE/ES are waived. :blurgh:
For now.
Going to be funny as balls when your ass gets picked up out of that idyllic sylvan paradise and dropped in the middle of the desert to fight off Teh Bad Hombres.
No problem with that. It's a dry heat man.
So I was thinking about the fact we don't really have Trump supporters on Languish, just trolls - at least, in their posting behavior they are just trolls.
And they get banned, which suggests, I am sure, that we are intolerant of dissenting viewpoints.
The problem, of course, is that it isn't possible to be a Trump supporter in a manner that is going to work somewhere like Languish. We are kind of dickish, and we are pretty intolerant of bullshit. We pretty much insist that you back up your views with some kind of rational, objective reasoning. And that is, for the most part, nearly impossible to do while supporting someone like Trump.
You could make rational, reasonable arguments around some very small subset of his policies and views, of course. But that would not make you a Trump supporter. Noting that 5% of what he is about is ok, 25% is marginal, and 70% is absolutely fucking dangerous and insane doesn't make you a Trump supporter, it makes you a "never Trump" sane human being.
So the Trump fans that we do have, the spiceys and croic, ed, and Marty and such don't really have any room to post meaningfully. There isn't anything that they can post that is substantative, while actually BEING a Trump supporter. If you back Trump, then you can't really get away from backing the worst of what he stands for, and that is in fact poison - because there is no way to act like the racism, intolerance, and embrace of outright anti-intellectualism is somehow not there.
So what is left?
Trolling. That is what is left - that is the only space for the Trump supporters. Languish is just like the rest of the internet. There isn't any way to signal your support for Trump in a intellectually honest manner, so what is left? Just trolling.
So they get banned for being trolls, and I am sure console themselves with the knowledge that they were banned for SPEAKING TO TRUTH or some such nonsense.
you can support trump with rational, objective reasoning for supporting him. for example, if I were evangelical, I could support him arguing he's looking out for my interests far more than hillary. if I were working class who worked in an industry trump has promised to reinvigorate (let's say coal mining), I could support him arguing he's looking out for my interests more than hillary
a lot of people here aren't of that mindset, so you get a bunch of people with mostly the same views who agree. the few who have different views don't really bother saying their views because over the years they've realized it just doesn't matter. (not saying these posters support trump -- just they have different views)
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 09:24:09 AM
a lot of people here aren't of that mindset, so you get a bunch of people with mostly the same views who agree.
I find hilarious how from the other side you consider us to be the same, when i.e. people like me, Valmy, Tamas or Berkut actually have vastly differing political views. We just agree on the very basics of how a liberal democracy has to function and conduct itself, which is the part Trump runs afoul of. I.e. no rampant bigotry, mindless nationalism, attacks on the separation of powers...
We will be back to bicker among ourselves about the role and size of government and transgender bathrooms once the guy in the White House stops trying to ruin the world.
You can say that, but you can't have a discussion around it. The moment you do, you have to start supporting why you think Trump would look out for your interests better than Hillary, and also why the negatives make it worthwhile. That breaks down almost immediately, because it is pretty hard to justify on reason.
This was attempted, of course. Much was made of Hilars email servers, or Benghazi. Of course, you don't hear anything about that anymore, since Trump has conclusively proven that he is a objectively much greater security risk than Hillary could ever hope to be, as an example. So instead you just get memes and bullshit.
You can claim you are a Trump supporter because of his supposed love of coal mining, but once you start to unpack that...well, it is pretty obviously bullshit. It is trivial to show that Trump cannot do anything for you, and will be fucking you in the process of pretending to do something for you. So people who truly believed that are no longer Trump supporters, because, you know - FACTS.
And people who continue to support him and claim that as their basis are obviously lying, since objective reality has shown that Trump won't actually help them - so then rational people ask "Well, the stated reason is obviously not true, so what is the REAL reason?". And the answer to that is odious.
So we are back to your trolling. and then getting banned for trolling.
It is the only tool you guys have left in the toolbox when it comes to any attempt at rational discourse.
Quote from: celedhring on February 06, 2017, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 09:24:09 AM
a lot of people here aren't of that mindset, so you get a bunch of people with mostly the same views who agree.
I find hilarious how from the other side you consider us to be the same, when i.e. people like me, Valmy, or Berkut actually have vastly differing political views. We just agree on the very basics of how a liberal democracy has to function and conduct itself, which is the part Trump runs afoul of. I.e. no rampant bigotry, mindless nationalism, attacks on the division of powers...
Indeed. I've been arguing this since I've been on Languish.
When you are standing at the extreme, everyone in the center and further out all pretty much look the same.
It is why Fox News and Rush Limbaugh have convinced the spiceys and croix of the world that everyone 4 inches to the left of them are communists.
If we are all standing on a line that represents the political spectrum, everyone on the ends of the line cannot differentiate between anyone in the middle and further out.
The "real" Trump supporters--if there ever were real ones to begin with--left long ago for their own bubbles.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 06, 2017, 09:46:49 AM
The "real" Trump supporters--if there ever were real ones to begin with--left long ago for their own bubbles.
Indeed.
I think of all the people who voted for Trump, a LOT have just shut up and are wondering WTF they were thinking. You don't hear from them, but even that is telling - you don't hear from them anymore.
The ones you DO hear from are the ones for whom those "rational" reasons were never the reasons for their support to begin with - that was just convenient cover for their bigotry. That has not changed, and Trumps actions since election and inauguration in fact would make them very, very pleased with him. So why should they change? Sure, they have to reconcile becoming Putin fans, but that is a small price to pay for getting Bannon calling the shots in their new Amerikkka.
Instead, they are doubling down on the rhetoric and support for "alternative facts" and claims that "the media lies" in order to go on on cheerleading for the bigotry and racism with some fig leaf of cover that nobody buys anymore, not even themselves.
It has, if nothing else, taught us something about our friends.
Quote from: celedhring on February 06, 2017, 09:37:57 AMI find hilarious how from the other side you consider us to be the same, when i.e. people like me, Valmy, Tamas or Berkut actually have vastly differing political views. We just agree on the very basics of how a liberal democracy has to function and conduct itself, which is the part Trump runs afoul of. I.e. no rampant bigotry, mindless nationalism, attacks on the separation of powers...
We will be back to bicker among ourselves about the role and size of government and transgender bathrooms once the guy in the White House stops trying to ruin the world.
I don't consider everyone to have the same views. :lol: at your next point. yes, people who support trump agree a liberal democracy should have rampant bigotry, mindless nationalism, and attacks on separation of powers (perhaps no separation of powers!).
Well they do seem to think reality TV stars with a history of public personal flaws and no other qualifications should be President. That strikes me as damning enough.
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 09:38:09 AM
You can say that, but you can't have a discussion around it. The moment you do, you have to start supporting why you think Trump would look out for your interests better than Hillary, and also why the negatives make it worthwhile. That breaks down almost immediately, because it is pretty hard to justify on reason.
This was attempted, of course. Much was made of Hilars email servers, or Benghazi. Of course, you don't hear anything about that anymore, since Trump has conclusively proven that he is a objectively much greater security risk than Hillary could ever hope to be, as an example. So instead you just get memes and bullshit.
You can claim you are a Trump supporter because of his supposed love of coal mining, but once you start to unpack that...well, it is pretty obviously bullshit. It is trivial to show that Trump cannot do anything for you, and will be fucking you in the process of pretending to do something for you. So people who truly believed that are no longer Trump supporters, because, you know - FACTS.
And people who continue to support him and claim that as their basis are obviously lying, since objective reality has shown that Trump won't actually help them - so then rational people ask "Well, the stated reason is obviously not true, so what is the REAL reason?". And the answer to that is odious.
So we are back to your trolling. and then getting banned for trolling.
It is the only tool you guys have left in the toolbox when it comes to any attempt at rational discourse.
republicans hated on hillary for emails and benghazi because they were easy reasons to hate on her. people didn't actually care about either, because as you explained republicans don't care now that the shoe is on the other foot. similarly, democrats will care far more about things trump does that other democratic presidents have either exactly done or somewhat-similarly done
coal miners see trump as willing to help him. you can argue whatever you want, but coal miners don't have time or probably much care to actually research the issues themselves. same with all the democrats regarding dakota access. most people don't research or look into facts. people are just so obsessed about trump and FLABBERGASTED how he won that they create weird terms like post-truth world, etc.
I am not a Democrat though, and the people who despise Trump for the reason I do do so for completely non-partisan reasons.
I am sure there are Dems out there who would hate any Republican who got elected. If Kasich or Bush was President right now, there would be Dems hating on them. That is perfectly normal.
And if Trump was a Democrat, there would be plenty of Dems who would be defending him.
But we aren't talking about that. He is a man worthy of contempt because of reasons that have nothing to do with the fake (R) after his name. He is not even an actual Republican in any meaningful sense.
So no, your attempt to troll some more and claim that the insane disgust people have with Trump is just normal partisan politics is complete bullshit. It says much more about you than it does anyone else.
Trump is not the anti-Hillary.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 10:05:32 AM
Well they do seem to think reality TV stars with a history of public personal flaws and no other qualifications should be President. That strikes me as damning enough.
It's going to turn out to be the greatest Faustian gamble of all time--although I don't think even Faust was told outright how it was going to go down in the end like Trump voters were.
Hope those tax cuts for the wealthy, the con of imaginary jobs returning and rolling back decades of regulations in the national interest were worth it.
But that's not what it was all about after all, now was it.
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 10:22:54 AM
I am not a Democrat though, and the people who despise Trump for the reason I do do so for completely non-partisan reasons.
I am sure there are Dems out there who would hate any Republican who got elected. If Kasich or Bush was President right now, there would be Dems hating on them. That is perfectly normal.
And if Trump was a Democrat, there would be plenty of Dems who would be defending him.
But we aren't talking about that. He is a man worthy of contempt because of reasons that have nothing to do with the fake (R) after his name. He is not even an actual Republican in any meaningful sense.
So no, your attempt to troll some more and claim that the insane disgust people have with Trump is just normal partisan politics is complete bullshit. It says much more about you than it does anyone else.
Trump is not the anti-Hillary.
sure you are. you're one of small group of former republicans (independents?) who migrated over to the democrat side. a few other posters here have done so as well. you and a few others don't like the direction the republicans are headed. but the majority of states chose that direction for lots of different reasons. so far, trump has been true to those reasons.
at least half the country, probably far more than that, doesn't actually care about foreign policy. they care about America, because we're an exceptional country full of exceptional people, and trump is putting America first.
Thanks for proving my point.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 10:32:00 AM
sure you are. you're one of small group of former republicans (independents?) who migrated over to the democrat side. a few other posters here have done so as well. you and a few others don't like the direction the republicans are headed. but the majority of states chose that direction for lots of different reasons. so far, trump has been true to those reasons.
There are many reasons for many things. Trump has been true to things of some sort.
Or something.
Care to make some kind of sense? What reasons? And why does something some 'states' decide legitimize anything. Many states have made many bad decisions for many reasons throughout history. Just because they did does not mean that makes their reasoning sound or their decisions good. Things happening is a justification in themselves? Berkut is a minority and therefore not credible?
And and spare me the self pity about how 'posters' are doing things. Your inability to post anything that makes sense besides unfunny trolls is not the other posters fault.
Quoteat least half the country, probably far more than that, doesn't actually care about foreign policy. they care about America, because we're an exceptional country full of exceptional people, and trump is putting America first.
So foreign policy is bad for the country and should not be done? I don't understand.
I think Trump's policies do NOT put American first. They put short term misguided priorities first. So I disagree with your assertion. How is he putting America first? Shouldn't that involve doing good things for America? I don't think pulling out the TPP was putting America first. I don't think ham-handed and poorly thought out immigration bans by fiat are putting America first.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 10:43:31 AMWhat reasons? And why does something some 'states' decide legitimize anything. Many states have made many bad decisions for many reasons throughout history. Just because they did does not mean that makes their reasoning sound or their decisions good. Things happening is a justification in themselves? Berkut is a minority and therefore not credible?
ohio, pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan went for trade, maybe some coal mining, generally pro-industry, etc.
pretty much every other state went republican for the same reason as every other election. this election, it was probably because they didn't want a democrat in the white house.
yes, many states have made bad decisions for many reasons throughout history. lots of people would rather have a terrible republican president than any democrat president, because democrats are for a lot of things they don't like. lots of people voted republican for the SCOTUS nomination, etc. voting republican because you don't want a democrat in the white house is sound reasoning. voting republican because you want a conservative SCOTUS justice is sound reasoning. there are other reasons you can list. wanting to push a social conservative agenda, etc.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
ohio, pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan went for trade, maybe some coal mining, generally pro-industry, etc.
Right. And I disagree with their reasoning. They made a bad decision for bad reasons. But lots of people and states throughout history have done that.
Quotepretty much every other state went republican for the same reason as every other election. this election, it was probably because they didn't want a democrat in the white house.
yes, many states have made bad decisions for many reasons throughout history. lots of people would rather have a terrible republican president than any democrat president, because democrats are for a lot of things they don't like. lots of people voted republican for the SCOTUS nomination, etc. voting republican because you don't want a democrat in the white house is sound reasoning. voting republican because you want a conservative SCOTUS justice is sound reasoning. there are other reasons you can list. wanting to push a social conservative agenda, etc.
Yes. I think I am aware of those things. And I think they made a mistake. I would never vote for some Communist over a perfectly normal Republican. Also nobody forced them to nominate Trump in the first place. They had tons of options and none of them were Democrats. They decided to put in there a deeply flawed incompetent just because he was a reality TV star who knew how to put on a show.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 10:32:00 AM
sure you are. you're one of small group of former republicans (independents?) who migrated over to the democrat side. a few other posters here have done so as well. you and a few others don't like the direction the republicans are headed. but the majority of states chose that direction for lots of different reasons. so far, trump has been true to those reasons.
He's got you there, Berkut. Just as you know punctuation and he does not, he knows your political views and you do not. See, Trump "has been true to those reasons" and if the press weren't lying, you'd know it.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 10:46:43 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 10:43:56 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 10:33:03 AM
Thanks for proving my point.
:D
Well I guess somebody found your post convincing.
Dude, he is a total troll. "they care about America, because we're an exceptional country full of exceptional people"? That didn't strike you as a bit deliberately over the top, even for someone who has informed us he takes stupid pills?
He has posted here awhile though. It wasn't like he was always like this.
I think he is on some kind of crusade to teach us a lesson or stop being so unfair to Trump people or something. He is just not very persuasive or articulate.
I think anyway. The lack of being articulate makes it hard to tell. He will post something I think is almost a good post and then he will go post stupid shit in the Super Bowl thread.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Also nobody forced them to nominate Trump in the first place. They had tons of options and none of them were Democrats. They decided to put in there a deeply flawed incompetent just because he was a reality TV star who knew how to put on a show.
I think the media was complicit in this. The barrage of stories about Trump and hardly anything about his opponents made him look like a "winner".
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 10:55:26 AMohio, pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan went for trade, maybe some coal mining, generally pro-industry, etc.
Right. And I disagree with their reasoning. They made a bad decision for bad reasons. But lots of people and states throughout history have done that.
Yes. I think I am aware of those things. And I think they made a mistake. I would never vote for some Communist over a perfectly normal Republican. Also nobody forced them to nominate Trump in the first place. They had tons of options and none of them were Democrats. They decided to put in there a deeply flawed incompetent just because he was a reality TV star who knew how to put on a show.[/quote]
yes, you disagree with their reasoning. if you agreed with their reasoning, you wouldn't be posting that their reasoning is bad. it's bad because you're placing emphasis on different factors than they emphasize.
you would never have voted for a communist over a perfectly normal republican, but many, many people would disagree (in their actions voting democrat more than anything).
they all didn't nominate trump, but they were stuck with him, so they voted for him over hillary. trump got around 30% -- because he was willing to attack immigration, which is an issue a lot of republicans people care about, and other things that the republican establishment has tried to move away from
if america wants a president who will value the same things you value, it will vote for that president. last year, america tried different values for a change -- it didn't want the status quo, it wanted something different. so, it's getting something different.
Mart, shut up.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 12:01:36 PM
yes, you disagree with their reasoning. if you agreed with their reasoning, you wouldn't be posting that their reasoning is bad. it's bad because you're placing emphasis on different factors than they emphasize.
Ok. I just don't understand your point. So? People had reasons to vote for Trump. I find those reasons unconvincing and wrong-headed, so the fact they had reasons does not do much for me.
Quoteyou would never have voted for a communist over a perfectly normal republican, but many, many people would disagree (in their actions voting democrat more than anything).
Well I would disagree with those people.
Quotethey all didn't nominate trump, but they were stuck with him, so they voted for him over hillary.
Yes but many of them did.
Quotetrump got around 30% -- because he was willing to attack immigration, which is an issue a lot of republicans people care about, and other things that the republican establishment has tried to move away from
Which is a very misguided thing. IMO. In any case the impractical nature of this plan was pointed out over and over. So when it fails they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Oh and he got 45%.
Quoteif america wants a president who will value the same things you value, it will vote for that president. last year, america tried different values for a change -- it didn't want the status quo, it wanted something different. so, it's getting something different.
Yes. I believe I stated that that election was a pretty big denouncement of me and everything I stand for. I am well aware. It does not mean I find their bad ideas good just because they got votes.
Your point is...what exactly? That people voted for Trump for reasons?
Quote from: Eddie Teach on February 06, 2017, 11:13:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Also nobody forced them to nominate Trump in the first place. They had tons of options and none of them were Democrats. They decided to put in there a deeply flawed incompetent just because he was a reality TV star who knew how to put on a show.
I think the media was complicit in this. The barrage of stories about Trump and hardly anything about his opponents made him look like a "winner".
He knows how to play the media. They were his campaign team the whole time.
valmy, my point is "you can support trump with rational, objective reasoning for supporting him."
you can have rational, objective reasoning for wanting to ban immigrants, and you can have rational, objective reasoning for not wanting to ban immigrants. you can think the former is terrible and be right, and someone else can think the latter is terrible and be right.
two different positions can be supported by "rational, objective reasoning," yet only one actually makes a situation better. for example, banning immigrants from these seven countries increases job availability for americans and safety for americans. both are true. the extent of (1) jobs becoming available for americans and (2) increased safety for americans might be minimal, but the rational, objective reasoning still exists.
people use the facts available to them to reason all sorts of things. look at some people here who think america is actually becoming totalitarian -- I don't think their thought process is wrong, even if they are wrong. I don't think failing to consider certain factors or having too few facts available means the reasoning is irrational
a lot of people who hate trump seem to be literally unable to see why people support him, so they wave their hands at it and call it irrational, insane, etc. this inability to empathize is naturally expected of internet posters, but it doesn't make their points true
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 10:22:54 AM
I am not a Democrat though, and the people who despise Trump for the reason I do do so for completely non-partisan reasons.
I am sure there are Dems out there who would hate any Republican who got elected. If Kasich or Bush was President right now, there would be Dems hating on them. That is perfectly normal.
And if Trump was a Democrat, there would be plenty of Dems who would be defending him.
But we aren't talking about that. He is a man worthy of contempt because of reasons that have nothing to do with the fake (R) after his name. He is not even an actual Republican in any meaningful sense.
So no, your attempt to troll some more and claim that the insane disgust people have with Trump is just normal partisan politics is complete bullshit. It says much more about you than it does anyone else.
Trump is not the anti-Hillary.
sure you are. you're one of small group of former republicans (independents?) who migrated over to the democrat side. a few other posters here have done so as well. you and a few others don't like the direction the republicans are headed. but the majority of states chose that direction for lots of different reasons. so far, trump has been true to those reasons.
at least half the country, probably far more than that, doesn't actually care about foreign policy. they care about America, because we're an exceptional country full of exceptional people, and trump is putting America first.
Those 'exceptional people' voted for Trump.
Or are you suggesting many were democrats and back Clinton?
Reading, let alone trying to understand his posts is a terrible waste of time.
at the end of the day, trump made people believe he was going to help them. lots of those shy trump voters were people who didn't like his views or his personality but were worried about not being able to put food on the table. that's why the democrats should pick someone better next time. when you ignore these people and their concerns, disregarding their views as stemming from irrational reasoning, insanity, etc., then you're just asking to get trumped again
Quote from: garbon on February 06, 2017, 01:28:54 PM
Reading, let alone trying to understand his posts is a terrible waste of time.
and yet you waste time continuing to post about me :yeah:
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:06:49 PM
valmy, my point is "you can support trump with rational, objective reasoning for supporting him."
This is only true to the extent that it is generically true when stated in the most general of terms.
It is like saying that it is true that you can subtract any number from any other number, and the result might be greater than zero.
It is true, but that doesn't mean that if you start getting into particulars, it will turn out to be the case necessarily.
You can, in theory, support Trump for rational reasons.
The reality however, is that those rational reasons almost never withstand actual, rational discourse. And when taken as a whole, the idea that a rational, reasonable person could take all the bad of Trump along with whatever good might be there, and then still say "I am a Trump supporter" is not rationally tenable.
So you are left with either vague generalities, or straight out trolling. Both of which you have done and admirable job of mastering, so kudos on that.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:31:34 PM
at the end of the day, trump made people believe he was going to help them. lots of those shy trump voters were people who didn't like his views or his personality but were worried about not being able to put food on the table. that's why the democrats should pick someone better next time. when you ignore these people and their concerns, disregarding their views as stemming from irrational reasoning, insanity, etc., then you're just asking to get trumped again
That is certainly true, but it doesn't explain why YOU are his #1 cheerleader.
Do YOU believe he is going to help you? Of course not. Does spicey? Of course not.
You like him because he shits on the people you like to shit on. The "others" the Muslims, or immigrants, or brown people, or intellectuals.
Because once you strip away the rational reasons, that is all that is left - the irrational bigotry. I can believe that there are plenty of people who might support him because on the surface he claims they will help them, and they don't look any further than that. That clearly does not apply to anyone spending any effort at all to understand the election, so that out is not available to you and your Trumpenfuhrer friends.
a lot of the people who voted trump won't get into rational discourse with people who have more knowledges or books than them. because lots of these people don't visit internet message boards or hang out IRL with the above
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:06:49 PM
valmy, my point is "you can support trump with rational, objective reasoning for supporting him."
I suppose one might have bad information and your rational analysis just leads to wrong results
And I hope that the results will vindicate me. I doubt it though. Most people will blame anybody and everything for the failure of their ideas besides the ideas. But I just hope that there are enough fair-minded people around that they will come back to us and reject these crazy extreme right and left wing ideas that seem to be gaining traction.
Quoteyou can have rational, objective reasoning for wanting to ban immigrants, and you can have rational, objective reasoning for not wanting to ban immigrants. you can think the former is terrible and be right, and someone else can think the latter is terrible and be right.
What reason might that be? I think any objective study of the data shows how vitally important labor movement is to our economic well being. I do not really subscribe to this squishy post-modernism when it comes to determining good vs. bad policies that everybody is right. No, some ideas are just bad. Some ideas do not work and result in bad results.
Quotetwo different positions can be supported by "rational, objective reasoning," yet only one actually makes a situation better. for example, banning immigrants from these seven countries increases job availability for americans and safety for americans. both are true. the extent of (1) jobs becoming available for americans and (2) increased safety for americans might be minimal, but the rational, objective reasoning still exists.
Clearly that is how that works. We should just ban all unemployed people. Then everybody has a job and less crime. Therefore it is a good policy by rational objective reasoning. So yeah it doesn't work. Labor does not work that way.
Quotepeople use the facts available to them to reason all sorts of things. look at some people here who think america is actually becoming totalitarian -- I don't think their thought process is wrong, even if they are wrong. I don't think failing to consider certain factors or having too few facts available means the reasoning is irrational
We are concentrating too much power in the hands of the executive and the legislature is voluntarily giving up their authority. That is dangerous. Particularly because other countries adopting versions of our Constitution tend to result in Presidential dictatorships. But that has been going on for decades. They also see the comparison between right wing demagogues that have been taking over governments in other parts of the world. Personally the attacks on the press by Trump are particularly worrisome, that is a very dangerous for a President to do.
Now I get it to some extent, the press really sucks and it always has. But the President should not be doing that. Our Constitution requires a strong press and congress.
Now those are concerning but what did people say when guys like Obama and Dubya were putting all this power in the hands of the Executive? Someday we might have a dangerous President. What then? Well Trump might be that guy. I don't think he is, I think he is an incompetent egotistical blowhard. But we are setting ourselves up here. We have a guy who is taking advice from people like Bannon. Well the next guy might be Bannon.
So to that extent I get it.
But it is like you said. Hard for reasonable people to agree if people cannot agree with the facts to base their reason on. So the fact so many seem to get their shit from propaganda outlets (and satirical outlets) these days is a problem.
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 01:37:53 PMThat is certainly true, but it doesn't explain why YOU are his #1 cheerleader.
Do YOU believe he is going to help you? Of course not. Does spicey? Of course not.
You like him because he shits on the people you like to shit on. The "others" the Muslims, or immigrants, or brown people, or intellectuals.
Because once you strip away the rational reasons, that is all that is left - the irrational bigotry. I can believe that there are plenty of people who might support him because on the surface he claims they will help them, and they don't look any further than that. That clearly does not apply to anyone spending any effort at all to understand the election, so that out is not available to you and your Trumpenfuhrer friends.
I support the President of these United States, because I love America. my question to you is why don't
you support trump?
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 06, 2017, 01:28:54 PM
Reading, let alone trying to understand his posts is a terrible waste of time.
and yet you waste time continuing to post about me :yeah:
Completely different. Isn't a terrible waste of time, just a waste. :)
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 01:35:00 PM
So you are left with either vague generalities, or straight out trolling. Both of which you have done and admirable job of mastering, so kudos on that.
I don't know. His trolls garner attention but they don't (apart from V -_-) generate any anger or outrage.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 01:49:47 PMI suppose one might have bad information and your rational analysis just leads to wrong results
yup. propaganda outlets imo only goes so far. some people don't listen to conservative right-wing propaganda and yet they still voted for trump, because he seemed like he honestly wanted to help them. someone I work with is very smart, yet she likes trump in part because he's bringing the government back to the people -- she wants less government. she doesn't care for propaganda outlets, rather she just lacks an informed opinion about these sorts of things. she's from a rural area and hears what most everyone around her says
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 02:03:48 PM
she doesn't care for propaganda outlets, rather she just lacks an informed opinion about these sorts of things. she's from a rural area and hears what most everyone around her says
Right. Well it all kind of gets out there anyway doesn't it?
How is Trump bringing government back to the people? How is he for less government? He seems to want to either grow the government or keep it the same everywhere. The only place he wants less if with regulations, but generally when I talk to people about regulations they seem to be for all the specific regulations just against regulations in some sort of weird general sense.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:51:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 01:37:53 PMThat is certainly true, but it doesn't explain why YOU are his #1 cheerleader.
Do YOU believe he is going to help you? Of course not. Does spicey? Of course not.
You like him because he shits on the people you like to shit on. The "others" the Muslims, or immigrants, or brown people, or intellectuals.
Because once you strip away the rational reasons, that is all that is left - the irrational bigotry. I can believe that there are plenty of people who might support him because on the surface he claims they will help them, and they don't look any further than that. That clearly does not apply to anyone spending any effort at all to understand the election, so that out is not available to you and your Trumpenfuhrer friends.
I support the President of these United States, because I love America. my question to you is why don't you support trump?
And right on cue, here comes the troll response...
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:51:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 01:37:53 PMThat is certainly true, but it doesn't explain why YOU are his #1 cheerleader.
Do YOU believe he is going to help you? Of course not. Does spicey? Of course not.
You like him because he shits on the people you like to shit on. The "others" the Muslims, or immigrants, or brown people, or intellectuals.
Because once you strip away the rational reasons, that is all that is left - the irrational bigotry. I can believe that there are plenty of people who might support him because on the surface he claims they will help them, and they don't look any further than that. That clearly does not apply to anyone spending any effort at all to understand the election, so that out is not available to you and your Trumpenfuhrer friends.
I support the President of these United States, because I love America. my question to you is why don't you support trump?
Well that's a slam-dunk, but I'm not sure where you're coming from with that is it 'my country right or wrong' or more along the lines of 'patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel' ?
Maybe LaCroix is just really loyal to the President as an office and institution.
Shame everybody who ever gets elected is Hitler.
Quote from: garbon on February 06, 2017, 01:28:54 PM
Reading, let alone trying to understand his posts is a terrible waste of time.
But they
are very funny. He's either hilariously arrogant, or else playing a troll who is hilariously arrogant.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 12:16:15 PM
He knows how to play the media. They were his campaign team the whole time.
He's a creation of the media. Of course, he knows how to get the media to pay attention to him. Combine his despicable behavior designed to get people to pay attention to him with his shtick about how everything bad written about him is a lie written by ignorant and jealous opponents, and he has the best of all possible worlds in terms of appealing to the clueless masses.
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 03:15:08 PM
Maybe LaCroix is just really loyal to the President as an office and institution.
Shame everybody who ever gets elected is Hitler.
Trump is not Hitler. But America is weirdly reminiscent of Weimar.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:06:49 PM
you can have rational, objective reasoning for wanting to ban immigrants,
No, not really. Not in the occidental world, at least. Controlling the flow of migrants, reducing the number of immigrants received to match the resources allocated to them, yes. An outright ban? Not rational by a thousand mile.
Quote
and you can have rational, objective reasoning for not wanting to ban immigrants.
Yes, of course. As we have seen this morning, many large businesses in the US require immigrants to function properly. They are PhDs, assistants to researchers, qualified and unqualified workers, they take the jobs don't do because they don't want to study or they think themselves to good for the job.
And I can make the same observation in Quebec and Canada. And France, and England, and Germany.
Quote
you can think the former is terrible and be right, and someone else can think the latter is terrible and be right.
I haven't seen any rational argument for an outright ban of immigrants from the Trump's team. Well, let me restate that: I haven't seen any argument at all.
Quote
for example, banning immigrants from these seven countries increases job availability for americans and safety for americans. both are true.
They might be, but you have not made the demonstration they are. I can say "all pigs can fly, they just forgot how" and claim it is true. It does not make it true until I can provide evidence.
Quote
the extent of (1) jobs becoming available for americans and (2) increased safety for americans might be minimal, but the rational, objective reasoning still exists.
You need qualified people available in the location the jobs are. If Google needs a PhD in physics in Nevada and Microsoft requires a mathematician in Seattle, an unqualified unemployed worker in North Carolina is not suitable for any of these jobs.
I always receive a ton of applications when I advertise a job. Not many are qualified. Among the guys my father hired, I have 3 or 4 who can barely write their name. Some of them fail a 6th grade qualification exam in literacy. What am I supposed to do with them? They can barely use a smartphone, let alone a tablet. They can't read plans. They can't understand properly the notes on a plan. I can't leave them alone to work, I need someone by their side telling them what to do every step of the way. They cost me close to 70$/hr. Why should I keep them instead of a Columbian who can do the job better than them for the same price? The only reason some of these guys have a job is because of the laws governing the construction industry. Otherwise, they'd be out of a job.
Quote
people use the facts available to them to reason all sorts of things.
Most people use their feelings, not facts. The Facebook thread is proof of that. People accept "facts" that conform to their views, and they do not really seek to double-check them, no matter the source. That's how fake news are spread.
I see a lof of false claims about the cost of refugees being spread around on Facebook. Even when you point to these people that it's a fake, they still refuse to believe it, because their instinct is to distrust the foreigners. That is not rational behavior.
Quote
look at some people here who think america is actually becoming totalitarian -- I don't think their thought process is wrong, even if they are wrong. I don't think failing to consider certain factors or having too few facts available means the reasoning is irrational
It's not about being wrong or right, it's about the thought process you use to justifiy your position.
Some supporters of the war on Iraq in 2003 were right. Some opponents of the war were also right. There was evidence that Saddam was actively hiding WMDs. There was evidence the intervention would destabilize the area too.
Both were rational arguments.
In the end however, irrational arguments prevailed on both side and created a mess.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 02:03:48 PM
because he seemed like he honestly wanted to help them.
how is naive equals rational in your world?
viper, is your position on quebec formed from irrational reasoning? if you let the majority decide what's irrational, you'll be deemed irrational . . . .
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 06, 2017, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 06, 2017, 03:15:08 PM
Maybe LaCroix is just really loyal to the President as an office and institution.
Shame everybody who ever gets elected is Hitler.
Trump is not Hitler. But America is weirdly reminiscent of Weimar.
Let me know when the hyperinflation is about to hit.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 06, 2017, 05:07:02 PM
Let me know when the hyperinflation is about to hit.
There is more to Weimar than hyperinflation, and longer to Weimar than the immediate prior of the Nazis. There was the deepening rift between the Berlin cultural avant-garde and the reactionary culture of provincial towns; the way such a rift contributed to ascribe to the left a form of degeneracy, and betrayal, of the grandeur of eternal Germany. There was the mistrust of cosmopolitanism, the disaffection in institutions.
In the end, historical analogs are always imperfect. This is why the old cliché about the "lessons of history" is so tired, and so wrong. If we look to history to find a roadmap to the future, we will not find it. But if those analogs help us think the present, they may serve a point. Hyperinflation further fragilized an already fragile Republic, and contributed to deny legitimacy to its leaders, and institutions. It would not be such a stretch, I think, to imagine that a terrorist attack would fragilize American institutions.
On the other hand history as a road map to the present seems to work.
it's good relying on history when it's actually relied on. the military, industrialists, and the courts, and probably other groups were essential for hitler to pull a hitler
even if it can be argued trump has congress (he doesn't), the industrialists (he doesn't), the military (probably the most arguable one, and he doesn't), you absolutely can't argue he has the courts
Well, he does have you, so that is a start.
naww
Quote from: grumbler on February 06, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Dude, he is a total troll. "they care about America, because we're an exceptional country full of exceptional people"? That didn't strike you as a bit deliberately over the top, even for someone who has informed us he takes stupid pills?
Just because you're over the top doesn't mean you don't believe what you're saying to a more moderate degree. Being over the top is a way to express the beliefs you know you shouldn't openly express with a degree of plausible deniability.
Quote from: LaCroix on February 06, 2017, 01:51:32 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 06, 2017, 01:37:53 PMThat is certainly true, but it doesn't explain why YOU are his #1 cheerleader.
Do YOU believe he is going to help you? Of course not. Does spicey? Of course not.
You like him because he shits on the people you like to shit on. The "others" the Muslims, or immigrants, or brown people, or intellectuals.
Because once you strip away the rational reasons, that is all that is left - the irrational bigotry. I can believe that there are plenty of people who might support him because on the surface he claims they will help them, and they don't look any further than that. That clearly does not apply to anyone spending any effort at all to understand the election, so that out is not available to you and your Trumpenfuhrer friends.
I support the President of these United States, because I love America. my question to you is why don't you support trump?
Hey, I support the President. I don't necessarily support the particular individual holding the office at any given time.
And even in times like now when I don't support the individual holding the office, I'll support him when he follows policies I find reasonable. Unfortunately, those policies are few and far between with the current officeholder.
Quote from: DGuller on February 06, 2017, 09:07:29 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 06, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Dude, he is a total troll. "they care about America, because we're an exceptional country full of exceptional people"? That didn't strike you as a bit deliberately over the top, even for someone who has informed us he takes stupid pills?
Just because you're over the top doesn't mean you don't believe what you're saying to a more moderate degree. Being over the top is a way to express the beliefs you know you shouldn't openly express with a degree of plausible deniability.
I don't disagree, but you cannot respond to a troll's trolls like you thought they were serious. That's just feeding the troll.
We probably need a Fate Rule for LC. We haven't needed it for Fate himself in years, so it is all rested up.
I would have voted Clinton in November (if I was American), but I'm warming up to Trump.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on February 10, 2017, 07:35:21 PM
I would have voted Clinton in November (if I was American), but I'm warming up to Trump.
Oh, darling, you are going to have to try harder than that.
Quote from: garbon on February 10, 2017, 08:40:24 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on February 10, 2017, 07:35:21 PM
I would have voted Clinton in November (if I was American), but I'm warming up to Trump.
Oh, darling, you are going to have to try harder than that.
To what, get banned?
Quote from: Ancient Demon on February 10, 2017, 07:35:21 PM
but I'm warming up to Trump.
He hasn't destroyed the earth yet, I'll give him that.
The professional trolls up their game:
Quote
North Korea 'conducts ballistic missile test'
15 minutes ago
North Korea's missile and nuclear tests continue to alarm and anger the region
North Korea has fired a ballistic missile, South Korea's military says, the first such test since Donald Trump took office as US president.
The missile was launched at 07:55 local time (22:55 GMT Saturday) and flew east towards the Sea of Japan for about 500km, South Korean officials say.
Pyongyang has conducted a number of nuclear tests in the past year.
North Korea's repeated missile and nuclear tests and aggressive statements continue to alarm and anger the region.
Sunday's launch took place from the Banghyon air base in North Pyongan province on the west side of the Korean peninsula.
A US defence official quoted by Reuters news agency said Washington "can confirm that we did detect a missile launch from North Korea".
.....
Full article here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-38947451 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-38947451)
Call us when they start listening to our rock and roll.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 11, 2017, 10:11:20 PM
Call us when they start listening to our rock and roll.
ONE PRING ONLY
I have to say, I do look forward to Trump dealing with the norks :lol:
Quote from: Tyr on February 13, 2017, 05:21:32 AM
I have to say, I do look forward to Trump dealing with the norks :lol:
Yeah, I'm interested to see how they react to actual, real insults.
With Ivanka Trump no longer needing to devote time to designing shoes for Nordstrom's, she could design shoes for the dear north korean leader. Shoes that both slimming and elevating. In gratitude, north korea may provide a gesture such as devoting a portion of their slave labor force to manufacture trump ties.
It could be the start of a breakthrough.
Quote from: derspiess on February 13, 2017, 10:38:58 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 13, 2017, 05:21:32 AM
I have to say, I do look forward to Trump dealing with the norks :lol:
Yeah, I'm interested to see how they react to actual, real insults.
I'm sure North Korea can handle Trump's Twitter feed of actual, real insults.